Why Selling Less Could Be the Key to Earning More

Summary

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast: Episode Summary

Episode Title: Why Selling Less Could Be the Key to Earning More
Release Date: February 27, 2025
Host: John Jantsch
Guest: Chuck Blake Lakeman
Podcast: The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast

---

Introduction

In this episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch welcomes Chuck Blake Lakeman, a multifaceted entrepreneur, bestselling author, TEDx speaker, and business advisor. Chuck shares his extensive experience of building 13 businesses across 10 industries on four continents and collaborating with tech giants like Google, Microsoft, and Apple. The focus of the discussion revolves around Chuck's latest book, Sell Less, Earn More: Double Your Income in 90 Days with People You Already Know, which promises a transformative approach to sales and business growth.

---

Chuck Blake Lakeman’s Journey and Background

Chuck opens up about his unconventional path to entrepreneurship. Overcoming challenges like ADHD and dyslexia, he delves into his early struggles and how joining the army played a pivotal role in shaping his business acumen.

Notable Quote:
"I was left-handed, right brain, ADHD, and dyslexic. They thought I was stupid and wanted me to be a innsmith because nobody knew what ADHD and dyslexic was back then."
[02:15]

Despite these early setbacks, Chuck's perseverance led him to establish numerous businesses across diverse sectors and geographies. He candidly shares both successes and failures, including an honest account of a failed business acquisition that taught him valuable lessons about cash flow and growth.

Notable Quote:
"We bought it for a million and grew it to nine and a half million in two years, only to sell it in a fire sale because I didn’t understand that when you grow faster, you have less money. It’s called cash flow."
[03:03]

---

Core Concept: Sell Less, Earn More

The episode delves into the central thesis of Chuck's book: selling less can lead to earning more. This counterintuitive idea challenges traditional sales paradigms by emphasizing relationship-building over aggressive selling tactics.

Notable Quote:
"People have accused me of being counterintuitive, but I realize I’m actually not. It doesn’t make sense, but intuitively it does make sense."
[03:47]

Chuck explains that his approach is tailored specifically for business owners rather than salespeople. He advocates for serving clients and building genuine relationships with people you already know, rather than relying on cold calls or impersonal marketing strategies.

---

Challenges in Traditional Sales

John and Chuck discuss why many business owners detest the conventional approach to sales. The traditional methods often involve cold calling, target marketing, and pitching pain points, which can feel intrusive and ineffective.

Notable Quote:
"By 1850, most factories were producing more than they needed, so they had to invent selling to sell stuff people didn’t need. We call it stabbing strangers with your business card."
[05:09]

Chuck criticizes the transactional view of business inherited from the industrial age, highlighting how it prioritizes immediate sales over long-term relationships and trust.

---

The Four Buying Questions: A Relationship-Centric Sales Framework

A significant portion of the conversation centers on the Four Buying Questions, a framework Chuck introduced to facilitate meaningful and non-intrusive conversations with potential clients.

1. Past: "What made you leave your job and start this business?"
   [09:00]

2. Future: "What do you want out of this business?"
   [10:19]

3. Present: "What is the one thing standing in your way right now?"
   [10:42]

4. Perfect Client: "Who's your perfect client, and how could I help you find them?"
   [11:07]

These questions shift the focus from the salesperson’s agenda to the client's needs and aspirations, fostering trust and openness.

Notable Quote:
"The overriding principle of the book is serve, don't sell."
[08:29]

Chuck emphasizes that by genuinely serving others and understanding their long-term goals, business owners can create lasting relationships that naturally lead to increased income.

---

Building Relationships and Trust

The discussion underscores the importance of trust in business relationships. Chuck shares anecdotes illustrating how serving others without an immediate expectation of return can lead to unexpected and substantial rewards.

Notable Quote:
"If you help enough other people get to their goals, you'll get to yours."
[13:21]

He narrates a story about a meeting with a woman who needed a babysitter, highlighting that even small acts of service can build significant trust and future business opportunities.

---

Implementing the Strategy: Drip Systems and Relationship Marketing

To maintain and deepen relationships, Chuck introduces the concepts of recency and frequency. He advocates for consistent, meaningful touchpoints through drip systems that provide value without overwhelming the recipient.

Notable Quote:
"We have to have drip systems that they actually want to open. It’s not about me. It's about sending something interesting and fun that they want to hear."
[15:37]

Chuck explains how personalized and value-driven communications keep a business top-of-mind, making it easier to engage when the client is ready.

---

Role of Digital Platforms in Relationship Building

Addressing modern marketing tools, Chuck discusses how platforms like LinkedIn can be leveraged to strengthen existing relationships rather than pursuing cold connections.

Notable Quote:
"The closer you get to a hug, the more likely you are to sell something."
[21:07]

He shares success stories of individuals who doubled their income by merely reconnecting with existing contacts, emphasizing that the principles remain consistent across different mediums.

---

Conclusion and Takeaways

The episode concludes with actionable insights for business owners aiming to overhaul their sales approach. Chuck reiterates the significance of serving clients, building genuine relationships, and maintaining consistent communication to foster long-term business growth.

Notable Quote:
"Find the lumberjacks who have the customers you need and build relationships with them."
[18:22]

John and Chuck leave listeners with the understanding that shifting from a transactional to a relational mindset in sales not only enhances trust but also leads to sustainable income growth.

---

Final Thoughts

Why Selling Less Could Be the Key to Earning More offers a refreshing perspective on sales, urging business owners to prioritize relationships and genuine service over traditional selling tactics. Chuck Blake Lakeman's strategies provide a roadmap for those looking to enhance their business growth through meaningful connections and trust-building.

For more information on Chuck Blake Lakeman and his work, listeners are encouraged to visit chuckblakeman.com or reach out via email at [e-mail].

---

Stay Tuned:
For more insightful discussions and actionable marketing strategies, subscribe to The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast and join John Jantsch each week as he explores the latest trends to help you achieve your business goals.

Transcript

[Marketing Expert]

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[John Jantz]

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is John Jantz. My guest today is Chuck Blake Lakeman. He's a successful entrepreneur, best selling author, TEDx speaker and business advisor. He built 13 businesses across 10 industries on four continents and has worked with companies like Google, Microsoft and Apple. Today we're going to talk about his newest book, Sell Less, earn More. Double your income in 90 days with people you already know. Sounds like an amazing promise. Chuck, welcome to the show.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Thanks, John. Those things always sound like obituaries to me.

[John Jantz]

Well, I've been doing this a long time and, and somebody found one of mine that like went back to second grade. It was really painful, but any rate, you know, but I want to talk about the book, of course, but I, I can't pass over the 13 businesses, 10 industries, four continents. Do you have like the two minute version of what all that was?

[Co-Host]

Sure, yeah.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

I, I, in high school I was left handed, right brain, adhd, ADHD and dyslexic. And they thought I was stupid. They wanted me to be a innsmith because nobody knew what ADHD and dyslexic was back.

[John Jantz]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

So I went into the army. While I was in the army, I.

[Co-Host]

Stumbled into doing something for somebody else and they paid me.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

And fast forward 45 years later, I'd started 13 businesses in 10 industries on four continents. And, and so yeah, I guess I.

[Co-Host]

Have something to offer.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

But when I graduated from high school, I literally thought I'd be the Only kid who wouldn't get a job.

[John Jantz]

Well, so what. Tell us about at least one of those exits. I mean, is it a. Do you have a. Do you have a good sexy story or were they all just. All just meat and potatoes?

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Everybody has good sexy stories. So I'll give you the ugly one because nobody ever gives us. We built a business that we bought.

[Co-Host]

It for a million.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

It was pretty much done.

[Co-Host]

It had been losing business business for 10 years.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

We bought it for a million and.

[Co-Host]

We grew it to nine and a half million in two years and had.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

To sell it in a fire sale because I didn't understand that when you.

[Co-Host]

The faster you grow, the less money you have.

[Audience Member]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

I just assumed that the faster you go, the more money you have. No, it's called cash flow.

[Audience Member]

Yeah.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

So I had, you know, the books. I've written four books now and the books I've read, I say most of them. This is not a book I wrote. This is a life I lived. You know, you bleed over this stuff.

[Audience Member]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

That was one of them. And then we had some more successful stories than that one.

[John Jantz]

Awesome. Well, going to the title of the book, sell Less, earn more. Sort of counterintuitive a little bit. You want to explain kind of what the, the, the, the core concept you're trying to get across there?

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Yes, John. People, people have accused me being counterintuitive and I realized I'm actually not.

[Co-Host]

I'm counter logical.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

It doesn't make sense. But intuitively it does make sense. It's really for this book I wrote because I'm a business owner and I'm a business owner advocate and I, I do all kinds of stuff with business owners. This is the anti sales book specifically written for business owners, not for salespeople. And these are business owners who are.

[Co-Host]

Looking for a permanent cure to the common cold call.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

You know, if you want to stop selling and still earn more, this is.

[Co-Host]

The right book for you.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

So we teach people to do the things I did because I don't, I didn't like selling.

[Co-Host]

It was a rude awakening for me.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

To wake up one morning, you know.

[Co-Host]

If you're making chairs and they're piling.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Up in your basement, you figure out, oh no, I actually have to sell these darn things. And you end up doing something you didn't want to do.

[Co-Host]

Nobody.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Very few business owners go into sale or in the business to want to sell. So we teach them how to get out of sales and to stop doing it by building relationships with people they already know.

[John Jantz]

So for the, you know, you hit on a very key point. A lot of people didn't go into business because they were great at selling and actually end up saying, I hate that part of it. Is there a reason they hate it? And does it really kind of lie in the way that sales is traditionally thought about and experienced and taught?

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Yeah. I love your book and I love your, your approach to things. Absolutely. We, we inherited, inherited this funny thing.

[Co-Host]

From the industrial age called selling.

[Audience Member]

Yeah.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Before the factory system, we produced what we needed.

[Co-Host]

By 1850, most factories were producing way.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

More than they needed. So they had to invent selling to sell you stuff you didn't need. And we call it stabbing strangers with your business card. You just, you're doing all this kind.

[Co-Host]

Of crazy stuff to try and gin up sales that people don't need.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Welcome to consumerism. So absolutely.

[Co-Host]

It goes back to the whole idea.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

That we were, we were sold this bill of goods.

[Co-Host]

Target marketing, selling to strangers, pitching pain points.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Why don't we find somebody's joy point instead? Cold calls, you know, cold calling the conversation. This is my favorite. I hear this all the time. I, someone very proudly will say to me, I contacted my database.

[John Jantz]

Right.

[Co-Host]

Why don't you connect with a few people?

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

You know, there's a, I mean, there's a message in those two statements. Sure. One is transactional and the other is relational. So we built, we've, we've inherited a transactional view of business, and sales is the worst operation of that.

[John Jantz]

So I work with a lot of consultants, agencies that are, you know, they need three or four more clients or maybe they're just getting started. They're, they're very drawn to the. I can have a thousand emails and I can automate a funnel and I can use AI to contact all these people. And I, I do the same thing. I say, why don't you just pick up the phone and call five people and see what happens? But, but people don't want to do that. They'd rather sit through agonizing days of setting up a funnel, you know, than to actually reach out. So how do you get people past that?

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Yes, so would I. I mean, most business owners, you know, they don't want to talk to strangers. They love talking to customers, but they don't want to talk to strangers. Go to networking events. Right. Nobody wants to do that. So how do we get them past the idea? Well, they get themselves past it. Usually they come to the end of.

[Co-Host]

Themselves, either in time or in money.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Because it takes a bucket load of money. And time to get all that stuff moving for you.

[Audience Member]

Yeah.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

You know, there's two ways to find, to find clients. You can buy them, which is extremely expensive in time and money, or you can pick up the phone and say hello to people.

[Co-Host]

But the key here, John, for me.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Is I'm not asking you to go find people you don't know that. I hate that. What if you could go to a friend and talk to them? We call it finding your lumberjacks. What if you, instead of going to.

[Co-Host]

The networking forest and finding the next.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Tree and doing all the seasoning, you have to do that relationship.

[Co-Host]

What if you found somebody who'd been.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

To the forest and had 20 years.

[Co-Host]

With the trees in their database and they could see the value of giving their customers to you. Make friends with that person you already.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Know and show them the benefit and off you go.

[Audience Member]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Jantz]

So, so there are a lot of people that, that start a business and you know, they really, again, I coach them. I was like, look at your contacts in your database. That's your, like you got a hundred people in there. Probably that's where you start. But then they kind of come to this point of like, yeah, okay, they know me. But like, how do I warm them up? How do I get, how do I get a conversation that actually has something to do with maybe them purchasing or maybe them referring. How do you, how do you do that? How do you get that, that contact who's not really expecting you to call them and talk to you about your new business?

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Yeah. So the, the first, the, the overriding principle of the book, sell less, earn more is serve, don't sell.

[Audience Member]

Yeah.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Which you're, you know, you're all over that. And we teach people specific ways to get involved in that. We have the four buying questions. When you meet with someone individually, I.

[Co-Host]

Challenge business owners to never talk about.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Their business again in a one to one unless they are asked.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

And almost always I'm asked because I have four buying questions where I'm asking them about things that have nothing to do with business.

[Co-Host]

I'm showing interest as a human being.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

And you know, trust is our number one asset.

[Co-Host]

If you don't have trust, you're done.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

So asking for buying questions, how did you get into this business and where's.

[Co-Host]

It taking you and what do you.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Want out of it? And just simple things like that will give them the, the idea that maybe.

[Co-Host]

This person actually cares about me as a human being.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

The guard goes down. Jeffrey Gittermer made this famous, but it.

[Co-Host]

Was in the 1930s people were saying.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Nobody wants to be sold, everybody wants to buy.

[Audience Member]

Right?

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

This the four buying questions. Flip the script. Don't talk about your business.

[Co-Host]

Ask them about them as human beings.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Or about their business.

[Co-Host]

Show interest.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

You know, Stephen Covey first, seek first.

[Co-Host]

To understand rather than be understood.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

I didn't make this stuff up. Yeah, but we have, we get all that. We all see. We see. Yeah, I understand, but we don't do it. You know, what if we actually went.

[Co-Host]

In with four buying questions and we.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Didn'T, we never, we never talked about our business again unless we were asked.

[Co-Host]

I guarantee you will make more money.

[John Jantz]

Do you want to share those? I mean, are they set questions or.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

They're set questions and they're, they're really different for individuals based on whether you're.

[Co-Host]

Talking to consumers or businesses.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

I'll give you the business to business version. Past is the first question, so you could say something like, so tell me.

[Co-Host]

John, what made you, what motivated you.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

To leave your job and get into this business? Yep, that's the past. That's something John hasn't thought about for years. It serves John, why in the world did I do this and then I.

[John Jantz]

Couldn'T get a job. That's why.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Yeah, and then the second one is.

[Co-Host]

Exactly.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

And the second one is the future. You got that right. The second is the future. So, John, if this is why you got in the business, what do you want out of it?

[Co-Host]

You know, what's your personal long term.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Desire for this thing?

[Co-Host]

Most business owners never do that.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

They just figure out, hey, if I make a bucket load of money, somehow I'll be happy. And we know it doesn't work. So that serves them to ask that question. And then the third question is, right, present.

[Co-Host]

So past, future, and then present.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

If this is why you got into it and this is what you want out of it, what's the one thing? We call it bottlenecks. What's the one thing standing in your way right now to get you to that place that you want to be when you say, this business has really served me?

[Co-Host]

Most business owners are too busy in the day to day to even think.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

About what is the one strategic thing I need to do. I need more customers, I need more space, I need better training.

[Co-Host]

What is the one thing that's holding.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Me back right now. And then the third, fourth one, if.

[Co-Host]

You ever get to. Because by then usually they're asking you questions.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

But if you get to the fourth one, the fourth one is, John, who's your perfect client?

[Audience Member]

Right?

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

And how could I find. Because I want to know who that is so I can send you some of those. So those are the four buying questions. My friend John was a wealth manager. He took our training. We have. We've been doing this for 20 years. He took our. Our Fast Track sales business development training course, and he had, at the time.

[Co-Host]

He started, he had 2200 clients, and.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

He was taking home a quarter million dollars a year.

[Co-Host]

Now he has under 20 clients, and he takes home way over a million.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Dollars a year because he took the four buying questions and he started using that instead of, let me show you what I got. Stop me when you see something. You're like, hey, I got something up the sleeve. I got something. Nobody cares.

[John Jantz]

So tell me, how much permission do you need for those, Those questions? And the reason I asked that is, you know, I have a lot of what I would. I mean, we all now have very. We all have networks of people who we know, but, you know, we've never met. We're connected on LinkedIn maybe, you know, and so then I get that question where somebody says, what are you most excited about? I was like, I'm not telling you what I'm excited about. You know, I mean, how much permission do we need to get into what might feel a little more personal?

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Well, and that is an intuitive question because you have to read the person across you and say, is this a person who gets excited about sharing that stuff? Or. So you might have to go a little slower. But in general, I've never found anybody.

[Co-Host]

Who didn't want to talk about themselves.

[Audience Member]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

And in some way. So even if they. When you ask them, why'd you get into this business?

[Co-Host]

They won't tell you because they couldn't.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Find a job, but they will tell you some other really good stuff about why they got into it because.

[Co-Host]

And then that's fine.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

So tell me whatever you want.

[Co-Host]

This can sound like an interrogation if you don't respond.

[Audience Member]

Yeah.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

So I'm always ready to say, well, let me tell you how I got in the business. And with somebody who's uncomfortable, I'll do that first.

[Audience Member]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

And in one of them I will say, because I couldn't get a job. And it just opens them up, so I have to be transparent. So they will be.

[Audience Member]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John Jantz]

So. And I think you really hit on this. And not everybody has the emotional quotient for this, quite frankly, but the whole goal is to serve is not to sell.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Right.

[John Jantz]

And if you're coming from that point of view, it eventually comes across, doesn't it?

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Yeah. You know, people think I, I, I.

[Co-Host]

Make some of this stuff up and.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Then I remind Zig Ziglar 1970s, you know, if you help enough other people get to their goals, you'll get to yours.

[Audience Member]

Yeah.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Do you really believe that we all.

[Co-Host]

Give lip service to these things.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

But I can show you hundreds, thousands of business owners who have done these things have actually finally actually practiced this with, with passion and found that, yeah, you know, it actually does work if I just serve other people. I had a one to one with a woman once who I was going to do my dog and pony show and she, she showed up and said, hey, I got to find a babysitter. We just lost our babysitter for our 20 year 20th anniversary and it's four hours from now. We spent 45 minutes finding her a babysitter because that's what she needed. She didn't need my dog and pony show. I never talked to her again.

[Co-Host]

A year later her sister called me.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

And she became a client for two years. I made a lot of money from that meeting because I served the other person. Do we really believe that that's, that's the way to go?

[Audience Member]

Yeah.

[John Jantz]

And I think it really takes, it really takes not only that serving, but a long term mindset too, right? I mean you have seen this play out. You knew at some time in the future this babysitting job was going to pay off, didn't you?

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

And I know your stuff well. But I don't know if you actually ever said this, but you live it out. You are a, you live out the.

[Co-Host]

Idea of long term decision making, making.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Decisions based on what will actually help.

[Co-Host]

You in the long term.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Not today. And boy, when we take on that, that approach, it isn't actually harder for the first year because that's what people think, oh, I'm going to start the death. If I actually take note, you'd be surprised. But boy is it freeing to actually.

[Co-Host]

Think in the long term and to.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

To work with people based on what is their long term best interest. That's my definition of business. Love putting the interest of the other person, the long term best interest of that person.

[John Jantz]

So a lot of times when you're having a conversation with your network, they don't need anything today. They can't think of anybody that they could refer you to. Where does this role of like staying top of mind, recency, frequency, I mean how big are a part of that?

[Co-Host]

You just nailed it. We use those two words, recency and.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Frequency to Build any relationship, whether it's.

[Co-Host]

With your dog, your pet orca whale.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Or your wife or your friend.

[Co-Host]

You need to be recent and frequent.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

How recently did you talk to me and how frequently? So we have to have drip systems.

[Co-Host]

And we have to have drip systems.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

They actually want to open. So it's not about me. I have a Realtor who sends me something on a regular basis, and I open it because it's always interesting, fun stuff that I would want to hear. It's not how great am I as a realtor.

[Audience Member]

Yeah.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

You know, and so we have to, we have to figure that out and.

[Co-Host]

And do the recency and frequency. And you put together a simple little drip system.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

We got Microsoft as a client, $3 million. Your client. Because for a year and a half, I, I tickled the guy Microsoft, who was my contact with everything from a.

[Co-Host]

Phone call to a press release to.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Once in a while coming out to visit him. And he called me one day and said, hey, I got this press release from you yesterday. I'm glad I did because I'd forgotten all about you. It's like I've been pinging you forever. But if you're not recent and frequent, it's not going to work. So you got to have that as part of your deal.

[John Jantz]

Plus, I mean, you know, we're all overloaded with information. So it's like, what, what, why one. Why did one thing work? You know? Right. It's because they were ready to hear it that day. Right. Yes.

[Audience Member]

Yeah.

[John Jantz]

So you have actually, and I love it when people have frameworks, four quadrants of marketing that you talk about when it comes to relationship marketing. You want to kind of unpack that idea for people.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Yeah. So quadrant number one is advertising. That's what the big boys use. And quadrant number two is direct mail.

[Co-Host]

Those, those two are more. Or direct marketing. Those two are more the purview of.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

People with a lot of money and not a lot of time. So you can buy a gecko or a, or a duck or a funny comedian and, and put them on the.

[Co-Host]

Way airways for millions and millions of dollars for years.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

And we just love, we fall in love with that insurance company because we fell in love with. Fill in the blank, you know, the guy, well, good luck with that. I don't have that kind of money as a business owner. And the second one is direct marketing.

[Co-Host]

That one I can do a little.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Bit more of and a lot more of in some ways, but still, it's expensive.

[Co-Host]

The third quadrant is public relations.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

We told a guy who Wanted to do rugby vacations.

[Co-Host]

Set up rugby vacations with a guy.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

And his wife and, and 30 guys.

[Co-Host]

And go on a 10 day vacation.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

In Brazil and play two or three rugby games. We, we told him go kick a rugby ball across America. He figured out he could get $150,000 in sponsors and it would take him like three months to kick the ball across.

[Co-Host]

And he'd get news in every town.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

He would.

[Co-Host]

It's paid marketing if you do it right.

[Audience Member]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

And then. But the one that really works for us is what we call everybody calls relationship market. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's the one that costs the least amount of money and the most amount of time. But you know, I say this all the time and you say, you say it in your stuff, you just don't say it with this phrase.

[Co-Host]

The closer you get to a hug.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

The more likely you are to sell something, you know, so, so sit across.

[Co-Host]

The table from somebody and watch what happens. And again, don't do it one customer at a time.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Find the, find the lumberjack who has all those customers who will just open.

[Co-Host]

Their database to you.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

You got a hundred people in your database. You're going to wear them out. He's got, you know, he or she.

[Co-Host]

Has 300 and you have two or three of those.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

You got a thousand person database. Let's just do it that way. Make friends with a few people.

[John Jantz]

So let's say I am a somebody getting started maybe in a new business and I come to you and I say, look, I want to get this, I love what you're talking about. I want to get this going. Like what's the checklist? Like, what are the 10 things I need to do to, to kind of set this in motion. I know it's not going to happen overnight, but how do I set it in motion?

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Yeah, yeah. So we, we have a, these are all things I did to build my businesses. We didn't make anything up to sell on the Internet or any of that kind of stuff. You know, we just feel like people need a specific set of tools. So we talk about what we call.

[Co-Host]

The lumberjack buying system. It's a simple way to alliterate the.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Three different places in your database that a person might be living. They're either a new contact or you're.

[Co-Host]

In a conversation or they're on the.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Fire or they're a new client. Things like gold veins where you can show up on a regular basis and.

[Co-Host]

You will see the same people over and over again.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Very different than network yeah. And, and they're all the ideal clients of yours. The Catalyst events, tier three listening, the four buying questions, the four walking in commitments. So there's some mindset things that people have to do to shift out of the industrial age mindset set guilt trip that we've been giving, you know, stabbing people with their business cards. That's mindset stuff. And then there's a few simple tools that people have. We have a 10 week training course that we use and about, there's about six tools that we give people over those 10 weeks and you don't have.

[Co-Host]

To use all of them.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

This is, this is one of the other problems with sales is that we give people these really rigid sales processes that are built for nobody or 70% and not for me.

[John Jantz]

How does some of the new ish been around for a while now, but newish platforms like LinkedIn, you know, how do they play into, you know, this, this game?

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Yeah, well, you know, 10 years ago somebody in one of our courses said I'm going to use LinkedIn to develop my relationships. Right after I had said, the closer.

[Co-Host]

You get to a hug, the more.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Likely you are to sell something.

[Audience Member]

Right, right.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

And. But she went in 10 weeks, she doubled her income by just talking to.

[Co-Host]

People on LinkedIn that she knew in.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Alphabetical order and she didn't get past E. Yeah. Now, now if you looked at what.

[Co-Host]

She had, she had good ex, a.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Lot of good existing relationships on LinkedIn. So it wasn't a cold call. She was talking to people she already knew.

[Co-Host]

So it doesn't matter what medium you're on.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

I, I made a hundred thousand dollars plus in, in about a year and a half off of Twitter 15 years ago. Yeah, you know, whenever. So you can, you, you can do that.

[Co-Host]

But it's still the same principles. Nothing changes.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

The closer you get to hug, the more likely you are to sell something.

[Co-Host]

Serve, don't sell.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Tier 3 listening, it's all the same.

[John Jantz]

Well, Chuck, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by. Is there a place you'd invite people to connect to you, learn more about sell less, earn more?

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

Yeah, they can find it on Amazon. Sell less, earn more. They can also go to 3 to 5 club.com 3 the number 3 t05club.com or just find me [e-mail] I also have a web page, chuckblakeman.com so any of that stuff, if you look up Chuck Blakeman, you're going to find me, unfortunately, if that's your thing.

[John Jantz]

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road. Chuck.

[Co-Host]

Look forward to it.

[Chuck Blake Lakeman]

John thank you. Foreign.

[Marketing Expert]

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