← The Duncan & Coe History Show
The Duncan & Coe History Show
Boss Walrus
00:10:07
In this bonus episode, Mike convinces Alexis not to be sad about Chester A. Arthur
Loading summary
Transcript54 lines
- [00:00]
A
Welcome to The Duncan & Company show bonus content. I'm Mike Duncan.
- [00:05]
B
I'm Alexis Ko. This is our bonus content show. We just finished recording an episode and I said, we're not done here, sir. I wanted to tell you that today I had. Well, so today I had coffee with James Bradley, who has a new biography of Martin Van Buren coming out. And we're in conversation about the book for an event at the FDR Presidential Library on the 11th. And there just are not that many presidents from New York. So when I was walking home, I started thinking about Chester A. Arthur.
- [00:45]
A
Of course. Great.
- [00:46]
B
We share a passion for the life of Chester A. Arthur. And it made me sad because he burned most of his papers and his letters.
- [00:55]
A
Yes, he sure did.
- [00:57]
B
Can I ever really tell his story? You know, my first book had really limited primary sources and Live with the Doubt because you have to fill in so many blanks that maybe you're wrong. To be fair, that's not happened. Certain things I wasn't sure about have been confirmed. And so it just made me sad. So I wanted to talk about my feelings.
- [01:18]
A
Yeah, I can understand that. It's. To me. I have two responses to your sadness because I didn't even know what the topic of this bonus content was going to be when you started talking. So I have two responses. My first response is that that kind of ambiguity lost records working from a very limited number of primary sources. I deal with that all the time in Roman history and in ancient history. And so I, when it comes to, like, my own dealings and thoughts about Arthur and how to tell Arthur's story, I have a level of comfort with that kind of ambiguity or saying, you know, like, we're never going to know this or like one source says this, another source says that what is actually true, we don't actually know. The other thing I will say about it is that it makes Arthur. I mean, he's a unique challenge. And in talking about Arthur, we're never going to be able to dig through his diaries, go through his letters because, I mean, I don't precisely know why he burned everything. He was awfully corrupt for most of his career, so I'm assuming.
- [02:38]
B
But then he had such a radical, righteous turnaround.
- [02:43]
A
Yeah, he. Well, he would. I think that Arthur was not himself corrupt beyond just being a machine politician in that time and place. Like he was just, he was getting his piece along with everybody else.
- [02:54]
B
I feel like we should pause for a second and say that Chester A. Arthur was the 21st president.
- [03:02]
A
He was. He was the one with the, with the, with the sideburns.
- [03:05]
B
He was one of Van Buren. Had better munchops, I think we can all agree. But Chester A. Arthur had a great mustache and he also had like 75 pairs of pants.
- [03:17]
A
He was a real dandy.
- [03:18]
B
He lived in the city. He was Urbain. He lived in Murray Hill. Doesn't recommend him. He was part of the machine. Roscoe Conklin. Yeah.
- [03:30]
A
He was like, he was like head of the Port Authority, which is just, that's, that's where like during the civil. Like, that's just where graft happens.
- [03:37]
B
Yeah.
- [03:37]
A
It's like all these goods coming in, going out. Everybody. There's just money, cash, you know, there's smuggling that's going on, there's black market stuff that's going on. There's. There's above board stuff, there's double billing. And Arthur winds up in those positions because he's, he's a part of this machine.
- [03:54]
B
Civil service. The stories we could tell.
- [03:56]
A
Civil. Civil service reform, which was so badly needed and was going to stop all of this.
- [04:01]
B
Yes.
- [04:02]
A
You know, this, but basically stop the spoil system, which is basically the parties are really running for federal power in order to get these jobs that will pay them salaries. Right. It's all about being a salary man.
- [04:13]
B
Corruption was endemic at that point in American history. He became the vice president. He was not elected president. He served under James Garfield, who was gunned down in a train station. Died a long, gruesome death.
- [04:31]
A
Mm.
- [04:33]
B
And then Chester legacy. Yes. And then Chester A. Arthur ascends to the presidency. No one is happy about it. They think, oh, my God, he's gonna sell the government piecemeal. And then he corresponded with a woman who wrote to him early on and said what no one else was saying, which was, I think you can do this well and honorably. What you've done in the past doesn't matter now. And her name was Julia, just like apparently everyone in Gladiator Julia sand and I have been to her grave.
- [05:09]
A
The things that he sent to her that then get preserved in her collection. As opposed to his collection.
- [05:14]
B
Yes. The thing that the President of the United States sent to a 31 year old woman in I believe, Brooklyn who had some sort of physical limitation. And he showed up at her house once and it was really awkward. Her parents were like, this is strange. The President is here for her counsel. I always try to pitch this book and my agent is always like, no.
- [05:38]
A
Well, here's the thing. We're going to write this book.
- [05:40]
B
Are we going to write this book?
- [05:42]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Like, I have. I have a vision for it. And part of it is, you know, with our shared interest in historiography and sort of how these narratives are constructed in the first place.
- [05:55]
B
So that's a mystery, though.
- [05:56]
A
Well, I know. And that's what we discuss, that we can use that as its own path into talking about how historical perception and memory is formed and how we even, like, we both have this interest in Arthur independently of each other, but are both drawn to his story. And how can we then attempt to reconstruct the picture of a man who didn't live that long ago? You know, it's not like he. You know, it's not like he's from. From the deep, ancient world, but is still going to be fundamentally impenetrable. And I think that talking about that is a great part of the story, too, also. We can just make stuff up, no? Yeah, sure. We just make stuff up.
- [06:38]
B
So. There's so many interesting things. I would love to read Julia Sand's letters again, now that I've studied so much about diplomacy. It's really an art. And I was thinking about it. I always just thought, well, it was sort of funny. Of all the people who wrote to him that he picked her out, was she really the only one who supported him? At the time, I thought she was just incredibly flattering. But I remember she spoke to Legacy. I sort of think if I reread them now, I would, you know, I would. I would see the art in them in the study.
- [07:12]
A
Right. Because she is trying to persuade him to. She is trying to influence his decision making and persuade him to rise to the moment, which he then does.
- [07:25]
B
There's the Elizabeth Jennings story. I almost forgot. When he was a young lawyer in New York City, Elizabeth Jennings, who is, I believe, the daughter of a religious leader. She played the organ at her church. It was a Sunday, and she got in a streetcar. Someone said she should get off because she was a woman of color. And some sort of scuffle ensued. He defended her, and they won. And so he. Chester Arthur basically desegregated streetcars in New York City before the Civil War.
- [08:03]
A
Yeah, this is like, in the 18th. I feel like it's the late 1830s, early 1840s.
- [08:09]
B
People have tried to tell this story, and it hasn't worked. But, you know, in the past, not always, but I've been able to sort of creatively come at the primary source, hunt in a way that I haven't ever tried to do with Arthur.
- [08:25]
A
So I don't see why our editors are going to be like, no, don't do this book about an incredibly obscure president that nobody cares about. Are we both going to write Arthur books?
- [08:37]
B
Do you want to write competing Arthur books?
- [08:39]
A
We'll write competing Chester A. Arthur books.
- [08:42]
B
Or we join forces.
- [08:45]
A
I think joining forces is the way to go. A Duncan & Co. Chester A. Arthur book is great.
- [08:52]
B
A slim.
- [08:53]
A
It'll fly off the shelves. It's not. It's not going to be long. You know, it's not going to be. I mean, I sometimes would joke that I do this to my agent to give her heartburn, that I want to write a thousand page biography of Chester A. Arthur. And like, because the thing is, like, how would you. Part of the joke for me is, like, how would you even do that? Like, there isn't a thousand pages to write about Arthur. You're doing some Life and Times of Arthur.
- [09:22]
B
It's a real Life and Times with emphasis on times and Chester, if I may.
- [09:30]
A
Oh, I call him Chet.
- [09:32]
B
Oh, wow. I don't. We can talk about that.
- [09:36]
A
I definitely call him Chet Arthur.
- [09:39]
B
No, I have to wait. I can't do it now. I'm finishing the book.
- [09:42]
A
No, we're both working on books right now.
- [09:45]
B
Yes. Okay. Okay. In the future.
- [09:47]
A
Good talk. We're not peeling off to do the Arthur book yet.
- [09:51]
B
I'm glad we talked about this. I'm glad we got it out there with that.
- [09:57]
A
That. That was The Duncan & Company show bonus content. I. I was Mike Duncan.
- [10:02]
B
I'm still Alexis Ko. This was our bonus content show.