91.) RZA Joins the Ebro, Laura, Rosenberg Show (5/1/26)

Summary

The Ebro, Laura, Rosenberg Show

Episode 91: RZA Joins the Show (May 1, 2026)

Special Guest: RZA (Wu-Tang Clan; filmmaker, artist, Hall of Fame inductee)

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Episode Overview

This special Friday episode of the ELR Show is defined by emotion, community, and creativity. The trio—Ebro Darden, Laura Stylez, and Peter Rosenberg—invite legendary Wu-Tang Clan founder RZA for an in-depth conversation coinciding with the release of his new film, "One Spoon of Chocolate." They explore RZA’s evolution as an artist, the film's creation, creativity's relationship to business, hip-hop history, and broader themes of discipline, family, and legacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Update & Show Family

• The hosts address a week marked by grief, as Laura mourns her best friend, Lady Shells.
  • Ebro: “The words that you find to console or to articulate mourning, there’s only so many that can really convey it.” (06:00)
• Listener emails bring warmth, community updates, and humor to open the show.

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2. Introducing RZA & Celebrating His New Movie

• RZA arrives, heralded as ELR “family” and a creative icon. The occasion: the release of his film, One Spoon of Chocolate.
• Film Summary: Unique, a veteran and ex-con seeking a fresh start, confronts a small-town conspiracy involving his cousin’s disappearance, going up against both a local gang and corrupt law enforcement.
  • Executive produced by Quentin Tarantino.
  • "This one feels like my 36 Chamber cinema." — RZA (14:30)

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3. RZA’s Cinematic Journey: From Albums to Auteur

On Learning the Craft

• RZA traces his journey from scoring “Ghost Dog” to working under Quentin Tarantino on “Kill Bill” (“I went to China… just as a student observer.” (18:47)), immersing himself in all production aspects.
• “Let me be a student. Let me study this… I started writing my own joint.” — RZA (17:00)

On Creative Instinct vs. Corporate Influence

• RZA reflects on creative freedom—how Wu-Tang’s debut thrived because “nobody interfered.”
  • “The reason why Wu-Tang is in the Hall of Fame is because 36 Chambers had no interference. The creative process was unhindered.” (45:41)
• He emphasizes the importance of following his creative instinct, even when running his own companies and producing films, often with his wife's partnership.

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4. Inside “One Spoon of Chocolate”

Inspiration & Production

• Written intermittently since 2011, finished during the writer’s strike on the “New York State of Mind” tour bus.
• Cast includes Shamik Moore, Paris Jackson, R.J. Cyler, Rockmond Dunbar, Blair Underwood.
• RZA highlights Paris Jackson’s commitment, noting she chooses projects based on passion, not necessity.
  • “She don’t need to do it...that means you’re in it for the art.” (30:01)

Metaphors from Life

• The titular “one spoon of chocolate” comes from RZA’s personal childhood lesson about change and influence—a story woven into his film’s arc.
  • “One spoon of chocolate could change the whole glass of milk.” (37:48)

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5. Lifelong Learning & Knowledge

• RZA speaks on his obsession with studying (“my thirst for knowledge has been unquenchable”), from genetics to quantum physics, often studying a complex topic alongside major creative projects.
• Credits his cousin, the GZA, for sparking his pursuit of “knowledge of self” at age 11.
  • “Knowledge means to know. Look, listen, observe and respect.” — GZA, via RZA (34:17)

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6. Hip-Hop History, Sound, and Legacy

Origins of Wu-Tang & Early Deals

• Jizza’s early deals and their “All In Together Now” crew predate Wu-Tang; RZA describes the mixtapes that reached Biz Markie and shaped their path to Cold Chillin’ Records (38:47).

Production Philosophy

• RZA’s sonic approach: keep the “demo energy” in final releases, resisting outside engineering that dilutes authenticity.
  • “I wanted 36 Chambers to sound like the demo… you’re getting the rawness of the energy.” (50:56)
• On different sound palettes: “Wu-Tang Forever is way brighter [than 36 Chambers].” (51:35)
• Discusses creative risks in side projects (Gravediggaz, Bobby Digital) and his prioritization of art over commercial certainty.

On Cultural Impact

• Rosenberg: “Wu-Tang really was for the children. We didn’t know what Dirty was talking about at the time…”
• RZA: “He was talking about the world’s children… If Wu-Tang sells one million records, it’ll be one million people that wake up.” (66:00)

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7. Family, Parenting, and Discipline (feat. Reflections on “Michael” Biopic)

• The conversation pivots to depictions of Joe Jackson in the Michael Jackson film, using it as a lens to discuss Black fatherhood, generational change, and the evolution from physical discipline to value-based parenting.
  • RZA: “The discipline I went through, bro, is definitely legal child abuse... But we were some bad little [kids] though!” (77:12)
• The group unpacks the societal inheritance of corporal punishment in Black families post-slavery.
• Both Ebro and RZA discuss their own approaches to honesty and discipline with their children:
  • “I whipped my sons one time... they lied. Now, they don’t lie.” — RZA (81:03)
  • “If you tell me the truth, we get to work together to find a solution.” — Ebro (82:15)

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8. Wu-Tang’s Present and Legacy

• Touring: RZA provides updates on Wu-Tang’s “Final Chamber” tour, challenges with member absences (notably in Australia), and the camaraderie/difficulty of maintaining the group’s unity on tour.
• Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: RZA, brimming with pride, reflects on what the induction means:
  • “Super duper happy, giddy, joyful. Felt like a kid... my first house was in Cleveland, and now it’s like, pull up, I’m in this [museum].” (88:36)
• Dreams of Barack Obama inducting Wu-Tang:
  • “You want to ask me who I’m a fan of and who I want to rock for me... let me get Barack Obama to induct Wu-Tang Clan into the Rock and Roll Hall.” (89:47)

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Notable Quotes

• RZA: “One spoon of chocolate could change the whole glass of milk.” (37:48)
• RZA on Art: "I'm here because of the art, bro." (61:28)
• RZA on Creative Freedom: "Nobody interfered... The creative process was unhindered, and that's important." (45:41)
• RZA on Study: "My thirst for knowledge has been unquenchable." (33:15)
• RZA on Wu-Tang’s Impact: “If Wu-Tang sells one million records, it’ll be one million people that wake up.” (66:00)
• RZA on Wu-Tang’s Hall of Fame Induction: “Super duper happy, giddy, joyful. Felt like a kid.” (88:36)
• Ebro on Grief: “There’s only so many [words] that can really convey it.” (06:00)
• Rosenberg on Wu-Tang: “Wu-Tang really was for the children. We didn’t know what Dirty was talking about at the time.” (67:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:00–09:30] – Mourning Lady Shells & Finding Words for Grief
• [13:44] – RZA Joins the Show
• [14:30] – “One Spoon of Chocolate”—Film Inspiration & Tarantino’s Involvement
• [17:00–18:47] – RZA’s Path to Filmmaking & Learning from Tarantino
• [21:34–25:53] – Producing, Hollywood Power Structure, and Love Beats Rhymes
• [37:48] – The “One Spoon of Chocolate” Parable
• [50:56] – 36 Chambers: Production Choices & Sonic Authenticity
• [66:00] – Wu-Tang’s Purpose and Cultural Influence
• [77:12] – Discipline, Black Parenting, & Generational Reflection
• [88:36] – The Hall of Fame: “Giddy, joyful...felt like a kid”
• [89:47] – “Let me get Barack Obama to induct Wu-Tang...”

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Memorable Moments

• RZA’s Parable: The “one spoon of chocolate” analogy for change and influence, drawn from his own youth and woven into his film’s theme.
• Barack Obama for Induction: RZA, only half-joking, proposes Obama as the ideal to induct Wu-Tang into the Hall of Fame—a symbol of cultural validation.
• Candid Talk on Family & Fatherhood: Open, personal reflections on the meaning and dangers of generational discipline, tying the personal to the political and historical.
• Real Talk on Art vs. Commerce: RZA’s relentless centering of creative purity over business calculation, across all endeavors.

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Conclusion

This episode stands out for its blend of humor, depth, and candid storytelling. Listeners get an inside look at RZA’s philosophy and process, Wu-Tang’s enduring influence, and the bonds—personal and artistic—that shape hip-hop’s ongoing story. Whether unpacking the complexities of discipline, the struggles of group unity, or the spiritual importance of creative authenticity, the ELR team and RZA keep it both real and reflective.

“Go see it!” — RZA’s ‘One Spoon of Chocolate’ is in theaters now.

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“Just don’t call it a podcast.”—ELR Show

Transcript

[A]

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Just don't call it a podcast.

[A]

The ebro laura rosenberg show.

[C]

Well, that was a clumsy intro.

[A]

Okay,

[C]

ladies and gentlemen, special Friday show today. Ebro, Laura and Rosenberg elr family was popping. As you guys know, it's been a very emotional week. And so we did not get to a merch update because the merch manager, Laura Styles is, you know, mourning the loss of her best friend and, and my ace, the great lady shell. So rip to lady Shells. Matter of fact, later on today we're gonna go services for lady shells. Yeah, after we, after we get get up out of here. We have the RZA on the program today.

[B]

Well, so this is, yeah, this is, this is a sort of a really cool family Friday because obviously since the family's dealing with serious family stuff and we the opportunity to talk to RZA on the day that his movie comes out, we're like, maybe it makes sense for family Friday. So we just hang with the RZA today who is family.

[C]

I mean, we've interviewed the Rizza now what, five or six times?

[B]

Yeah, he know. He's definitively friend family of the show. He might be a family.

[C]

Yo, but how cool is that, bro?

[B]

That's, it's, it's wild. It's wild, bro. Now, I've had a lot of great experiences and conversations with the Rizza over the years.

[C]

No, it's kind of wild, bro. Yeah, I mean, he's like. When you think about our level of fandom of wu Tang and 36 Chambers, yours probably bigger than mine, but nonetheless, the RZA is like.

[B]

He's Rizza. Razor, razor, razor sharp.

[C]

That's Bobby.

[B]

That's Bobby Dizzy. You know what I'm saying? Bobby, Bobby, Bobby.

[C]

Digi, digi, digi. But before he gets here, while we wait for him, we got some ELR family emails. That's right. Just hit a Friday. Yeah. Ebro, Laura Rosenberg at Gmail. Hopefully you guys had a great week. What are you seeing over there?

[B]

Let's see. Well, we have one. This I guess was sent the other day. Dear Laura, Ebro, Griff and Rosenberg Griff, your billings. You're now build ahead of me. Congratulations.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

That's how you spell and spell my name wrong. No, it's crazy. I'm gonna have you felt about it.

[A]

It's just interesting.

[C]

You rarely get.

[B]

Dear Laura, Ebro Griff and Rosenberg. It's an interesting start. Just interesting, that's all. Interesting. Shout out to everybody if you know, you know. On the interesting of it all, it's Love on the Spectrum.

[A]

You watching?

[B]

Come on, guys, you don't know Dylan on Love of the Spectrum.

[C]

I'm not watching. Love on the Spectrum. My interesting per se.

[B]

Nice. The man. He's the man, bro. He's hot out here. Anyways, this is serious. It says, Ebro, you made me cry today. I'm so deeply sorry for your loss. Losing a dear friend or loved one is always difficult. But I can only imagine the shock, absolutely tragic and heartbreaking here of the passing of your sister, Lady Shells. Sorry to sound so cheesy, but my thoughts and prayers are with you all at this difficult time. Please let me know if I can help in any way. That's from Bia.

[C]

Bia, love you. And it's not cheesy, but I will agree right when you're going through something tough, and this is obviously hopefully going to put a smile on people's faces. The words that you find to console or to articulate mourning, there's only so. There's only so many that can really convey it. And so I found myself this week, like looking for new ways to articulate what I'm feeling. And I didn't have it.

[B]

No, it's not. There's not a lot.

[C]

And so I've started Feeling cheesy where I was like, really? I'm going to text, I'm thinking about

[B]

you or prayer or thank you.

[A]

I love.

[C]

And it's tragedy. It's like you my thoughts and prayers,

[B]

like I always say, thinking of you, praying for you.

[C]

And even the fact that we say always say no because I feel like it's not as deep as it actually is, but it's deep.

[B]

But there's only certain words that can work for.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

Well, no, I really. It is not often that I am at a complete loss. And when Laura and I spoke last Saturday, she still, Laura still went to her dress drive. They dressed 200 girls last Saturday. It was a big day for envision and Laura went to do the work and to distract herself and try to be a part of it. And I was texting with her and then she stepped out and called me. And as you were saying, I've never heard Laura like this obviously. And she's like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. And I really don't have like my. In my brain. All I can go to is my ex wife and her brother. So I always go there of like what that's like. It's nothing good to share. There's nothing except, you know, it's gonna be a long time and this is gonna be really hard.

[A]

And well, yeah.

[C]

And you also, and you also say like I've said so many times this week, reminded myself and talked to others, this is going to be hard. This is going to be hard for a long time. This is a tragedy. There's nothing you can do except. Except, except. Except the reality of this terrible situation. That is it.

[B]

And so sometimes I'll add, I will add there will come a time, a long time from now when, when you think of shells, it doesn't feel this way. And it will feel better and it will feel. There'll be love and laughter and positive things. But that's a long way away from now.

[C]

And there might be some moments in between now and whenever where we. I mean, look, I was with. I went to Apple multiple times this week to the offices where I worked with shells every day. Every day. There was a space where she stood every day. I sat in that room by myself and looked at that space with her equipment still there, right? And then I walked around the, the building and saw other people and we put pictures on our desk and you know, like pictures of all of everyone and her. And flowers on her desk. Right. And so like. But I had to be there with the team. But I also wanted to be there. Like I want to do this work. Like that's who I am. I think naturally, when something hard is happening, I don't just naturally go, I can't deal with everyone. I'm like, okay, let's go. You know, like you guys have probably heard me say it. I'm gonna go. Let me go on out here and get my ass kicked real quick, you know what I mean? Because that's just what it feels like. There's no other way around it. And, and, and you can't kick that can down the road either.

[A]

So.

[C]

B, I appreciate that it has been a hard week.

[B]

No, it was very nice. But.

[C]

But it does feel like start to feel cliche when you're dealing with hard things and you're saying the same thing to everybody.

[B]

Yeah, no, it does. And what else do you say? Here's a more positive note. Good morning to everyone, ELR family. My name is Moses from Portland, Oregon and as the subject line said, I am tying the knot today. The old chain and shackles. I thought it was ball and chain. All jokes aside, can I get a shout out for my beautiful wife to be Miriam? Miriam, thank you for being everything that you are and for blessing us with a beautiful family. I love you. Much love and respect to everyone at the show. Wishing nothing but health and prosperity for all your families and everyone listening. P.S. since we can't play music because of the copyright ish, we. What about Weekly Wednesday Wig out. Essentially another day for Ebro or Peter to go off on a rant. Because sometimes we like a little blood in the water. I mean you basically get something like that.

[C]

Most days I find it stressful to plan a crash out. A plan crash out is hard work, man.

[B]

That's not what makes.

[C]

I can't deliver it.

[B]

No, you can.

[C]

You're pretty good. You're thinking Don. Don on Don Rosenberg is the king.

[B]

Not a planning them. He doesn't plan them either. We never. That's always the thing is that we don't believe it's a rant. If it's planned, it has to just be. Every time, you know, many times I get red faced and angry in here and I didn't come in here with any idea that I felt even strongly about a subject. I don't, I never plan. Honestly. I, I mean maybe that there's a political thing where I'm like, oh, tomorrow I'm gonna. But not really. It's hard to plan those things. I don't think I'm Read this one because it's long, but I just want to say that in the email, this one person, Stephen, when she says what's up to the team, I just like that she spelled Louie's name like Louis Armstrong. And she spelled Bascom. Baskeem.

[C]

Yes, she did.

[B]

And she said Baskeem and Rahsaan.

[C]

I saw that you got two shout outs.

[B]

You're Baskim and Rahsaan. That's crazy.

[C]

Was that the lady who punished the kid over lying about brushing his teeth?

[B]

Yes, but it's just too long. It's long.

[C]

And hit the kid with the. Congratulations. You played yourself.

[B]

Yeah, she caught her kid lying.

[C]

She.

[B]

She could tell that the toothbrush was bone dry.

[A]

There you go.

[C]

That's how you check. Shout to Shailene to Talking about a progressive candidate over in Queens, Chuck park, running against an incumbent representative from Congress in Queens. You guys know I like local politics, so shout to Chuck Park. He's refusing a pack money and he's called and he's campaigning all across Queensland. Town halls, meetups, canvassing. So he's going to do good. He's really boots on the ground.

[B]

All right.

[C]

And she wants us to get Chuck park on the program to rep for Queens. There was an actual Manhattan election I didn't double back on this week.

[A]

Which one?

[C]

District 3 down West Village. Manhattan was allegedly very important.

[B]

We don't know what happened.

[C]

One of the candidates I was trying to get on the show, we kept missing. She was a cat. She was a person that actually outed Cuomo. I guess she had a. A sexual assault allegation. Was it assault or harassment against Cuomo? And I was trying to get her on the show. I do not.

[B]

This is city council.

[C]

This is, I believe, yes, a city council seat. Let me look. Her name was Lindsay Boylan. Well, we'll get the details on Lindsey Boylan to see who actually won. But at any rate, do we have the trailer for the Rizzo's new movie? I see him. He just walked into the room.

[B]

Oh, let's, let's. Let's watch this trailer.

[A]

Two years assault and battery for stopping my neighbor from getting whipped on by her drunk husband cousin. You put that man in a coma. He was a bully. What do we have here? What's the fucking rules about here? Jonesy, you tell us. What's the rules around here? God instructs us to prepare.

[B]

If you want to live, I suggest you leave this town out immediately.

[C]

Still in the field, I can stand

[A]

here and fight for what's mine.

[B]

Liberation is one of the commandments of God.

[C]

He who has prepared to enter the kingdom shall enter the kingdom. This system is a giant.

[A]

David slew a giant with a goddamn slingshot.

[B]

Your technique is second to none. That was a magnificent display of the Mandingo style.

[A]

Quite interesting, right? Now witness my he who seek it shall find.

[C]

He who knocketh it shall be opened. All right, ladies and gentlemen, another guest.

[A]

A super.

[C]

A legend.

[B]

You know, it's.

[C]

You heard of this guy?

[B]

Ever since you said nobody wants to mess with us in the new era, we just keep getting better and better.

[C]

This is the rza.

[B]

This is the hall of Famer.

[A]

What?

[C]

Rock and Roll hall of Fame inductee. The RZA on the program. What's happening, sir?

[A]

Bong, bong, bong.

[C]

Pow, pow. And all the things, Right?

[A]

Exactly, exactly.

[B]

Movie director, rza. You know, back in movie season.

[A]

Rza back in movie season.

[C]

Now, I saw you. I saw you at an event. You were. You and Steve Rifkin was. I don't know where we was at.

[A]

That was the Billboard hall was at.

[C]

Billboard hall of Fame.

[A]

Yeah, that's two now.

[C]

And RZA walks in and I was like, yo, what's good? What's good? I ain't see you, man. He was like, yo, I'm back at you. Movies and things.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

So here we go.

[B]

We're here.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

May 1st.

[A]

May 1st, new film in theaters. One spoon of chocolate. Yeah, man. Really, really proud of this one. I mean, I'm always proud of what I do, but this one feels like my 36 chamber cinema. Oh, wow.

[B]

Whoa.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Very, very, very engaging. Very unique in the sense of how I put the story together. In fact, the character name is unique. I was really.

[C]

Can I read the excerpt?

[A]

Read the excerpt.

[C]

Rizza's One Spoon of Chocolate follows Unique, a veteran and ex convict seeking a fresh start in a small town.

[A]

I like it.

[C]

After an altercation with a gang of locals, he starts to suspect they may have something to do with the disappearance of young men in the area, including his cousin. As he digs for the truth, he finds himself the target of not only one gang, but the local sheriff's office, whose involvement is in the disappearances may be even more sinister. Instead of waiting for his turn to be picked off, Unique and the closest to him, Paris Jackson and rj. Is it Siler?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Silas decide to fight back in this sharply satirical and stylish action thriller from the visionary leader of the Wu Tang Clan.

[B]

Oh, this I already got, by the way. I already got all the vibes.

[A]

This.

[B]

This is all the Classic kung fu slash Rambo.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

This is a guy fighting against the world.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Fight is. We say this is the guy trying to serve justice to injustice, you know? Yeah.

[C]

There you go. So I saw Tarantino's name on this, too.

[A]

Yep. Executive produced by Quentin Tarantino. The movie kind of exists in his world as well, you know, I mean, there's a couple of gags in there, which I guess I don't like to do spoilers. But, you know, like in Pulp Fiction, people always say, yo, what's in the briefcase?

[B]

Yeah. And you're always seeing the light, but you don't know what's in the briefcase.

[A]

Yeah, I got. I show you what's in the briefcase. What could have been in the briefcase? Let's just put it that way.

[C]

Your love of film and drama, obviously, you've delivered to us in musical form with the great things that you've created, but I don't know if anybody's ever heard you sit and talk about the story of transitioning because you went love of cinema and music, but you did music first, right. Then you got access to making film.

[A]

Indeed.

[C]

Talk about that passion, because you've been on that wave for what, almost 25 joints?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, when I first started, of course, when I was making albums, I was trying to make movies. I wanted my albums to feel like a movie, which. You guys know the links. You think you. You hearing a movie, Right? So I was. I was always striving to tell stories in a cinematic way, but my tools was my ASR, my NPC and all that. When I met Quentin Tarantino in the year, I think, 2000, 2001, I just saw a brain that was a alike when it came to art. And then I realized what he was doing was kind of something that I could do. And so I was humble enough to be like, yo, yo, let me be a student. Let me study this. You know what I mean? And after six years of that study, I started writing my own joint. And then my first film, which he also produced, Ghost Talk.

[B]

What was the first one?

[A]

My first film that I appeared in or score was Ghost Dog.

[B]

That was. You scored that?

[A]

Yeah. So that was Jim Jarmusch. Well, that. That also got me a step closer because Ghost Dog was so cool.

[B]

You were in it too, right?

[A]

Yeah, I was in it. It was. But it was so, you know, it kind of like had a critical acclaim, so that got me closer. But then when I was scoring Kill Bill, that's what. That's when it all clicked. Like, yo, I Can make movies. I could understand the process. What I did. Yo, bro, I went to doing Kill Bill. I wasn't really signed on to be the composer. I was there as a student observer, you know what I mean? I flew to China, set up in the corner. Took a composition notebook that I would write lyrics in. Nah. But now I'm writing movie notes.

[B]

So this is just you asking Quentin, can I come along?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you go in your own pocket. And I'm gonna take a trip. I'm gonna just hang out.

[A]

I'm just rolling.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I'm rolling to China. Stay there for some weeks. Where y' all shooting at next? Mexico. I see you in Mexico, I'm in Mexico. You know what I mean? But here. The funny thing, though, so. But the good thing about it being there for me was that I wasn't there under no obligation. So I could hang out as late as I want, get up when I want, you know what I mean? And then by doing that, I was able to communicate with everybody. Department. Some of the departments. Guys should have went to bed, but they wanted to hang out, you know?

[B]

Right. But you got time with those people and you learn from them, too.

[A]

Exactly. They're sitting there talking to gaffer grips, DPs, Steadicam operators, costume design, you know, so many people. And all that became my knowledge. And by the time we got to 2010, I wrote my first film, man, with the IFS. Eli Roth helped me out. Read it to Quentin. He was like, yo, you got something here. Give me some. Some wisdom. So, yo, see if, you know, if you. If you could get it placed, I'm gonna rock with you. And we got it placed at Universal. And that was my entry into being a film director. But the punchline for me was that people, people was like, oh, it's action movie. It was. Maybe it's a one off. Maybe he's not serious. And so when I did my second film, it was called Love Beats Rhymes, which you. Yeah. No, no, seriously, you. And you is the reason why I cast the person. I ain't gonna say the person name, I don't think. But I saw the person on your interview, and the energy and the passion was so strong. It reminded me of the energy and passion of Old Dirty Bastard. I was like, you weren't wrong. No, I know I wasn't wrong.

[B]

You're still not wrong.

[A]

No, you know, right? No, I didn't know. But. But. But it was your show that introduced me.

[C]

You told me this story.

[B]

I didn't know that. I Didn't know. I know the conversation you're talking about, but I don't. I didn't know that.

[A]

Wow. Yeah. And so. So. So anyway, that movie becomes my second movie, which is a movie about poetry and love. A female lead. So now. And. And at that time, I was really hanging with John Singleton more than. And his producer named Paul Hall. He was the producer of it.

[B]

Now, when you say a producer, in the case of Paul hall, producer. In Hollywood, it's often a joke because it can mean so many different things.

[A]

Literally.

[B]

Can mean you put up money. It could mean you're intimately involved and you're on set every day with someone like a Paul Hall. What's he doing?

[A]

I'm. Break it down. No, no, no. A producer is a powerful position in film. It's different on TV shows.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Than on TV shows. So on film, a producer has a lot of power and a lot of creative input. And like, a producer is. He has to control the production. Like how a producer in music is very similar in film, not in TV.

[B]

So in TV. Cause you will see in TV, under the list of producers, everyone who put up 100 grand could have their name.

[A]

Well, that's called an executive producer.

[B]

But even if you look at, like a. I was looking at a show last night that's on Apple TV and they have mad producers on it. And I know not all of them are doing anything creative.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no. Let me help you out here.

[B]

You think so?

[A]

No, not. Not all. I mean, look, you could be a producer because you. You helped put the music in. You could be a producer because you had the story rights and shit, and you brought that to the table.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But also, on tv, a producer is the writers. So a writer starts as a writer, but as that writer credit grows, he could becomes a co producer to a producer. So you may see five producers back to back. That's the five dudes that's in that writer's room.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And even though they didn't write that particular episode, when you in the writer's room, yo, it's eight. You know, like my writer's room for Wu Tang show, we had eight people in there. So it's eight minds. Like, yo, nah, he should go left or he should go right. No, he should go up, he should go down. And then the assigned writer has to take all that data and make it into the shooting script.

[B]

Got it?

[A]

But everybody in that room is part of that party if they've made it to the level of producer.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know what I Mean, yeah.

[B]

But in the case of Paul hall,

[A]

now, Paul is a traditional studio producer. So Paul produced Shaft. He produced Higher Learning, he produced Masha, Tyler, Perry joints. But he was really John Singleton's guy after Boyz n the Hood, okay? So everything that John did from there, Paul's was beside him. So when this film, Love Beats Rhymes, was available, I think John was thinking of doing it, and then I think a few other directors was thinking of doing it. I was a long shot because it was like, oh, this. This guy does action movies. But when I met with Lionsgate and I pitched my. My version of what I thought, it was like, you know what? Let's just roll with the Riz on it. And then John Singleton had to kind of like, validate that. Like, nah, nah. Riz is a filmmaker. He's a cinephile. Like, the dude brain is like that. So we do that one.

[C]

His brain is a what?

[A]

His brain is like that. My brain is like that. He's a cinema cinephile.

[C]

A cinephile?

[A]

Yeah, cinemaphile. Let me break it. You know, I talk fast.

[B]

Someone who loves cinema.

[C]

I never heard this.

[B]

You never heard the first. Can you write that? Start a list, please. Start a list of Ebro's. Weird is she doesn't know cinema.

[C]

Never heard Cile. Y' all ever heard Cile? Lou never heard somebody bask him?

[B]

Bask him? Cile?

[A]

No.

[C]

Wow. And he works with cameras, and he never heard Cile. So I just wanted to let y'.

[A]

All. Chris.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Film study.

[B]

What side you want to be on.

[C]

Well, no.

[A]

And.

[B]

And you want to be over here with me, rza, and Griff, though, don't you?

[C]

Hang on, hang on, hang on. You.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Are a producer of a TV show.

[B]

I am.

[C]

You know about Ciles.

[B]

Okay. So he knew, though, that you had the mind for it and that you and John. So John Singleton really had a deep respect for you. That's pretty amazing in and of itself.

[A]

Oh, no, John, that's. That's my man. Well, that's. That's a good dude. Special dude. Smart dude, you know, Always came across him for years, like, even since the early wuang days. And he'd be in the audiences really. Yeah. John is. John was a special, special dude. And we know that. We've seen. Yeah. His work. And Paul as well. So Paul did that film. Then on my next film, which was called Cutthroat City, not. Not written by me. So I just want to be clear. The first movie I write. The second movie, I don't. I'm A Hired Gun. My third movie, I'm a hired gun, Cutthroat City. But on this particular film, I meet Shamik Moore, okay? And I've. I like this kid. You know what I mean? Like, this kid got something. I saw him in Dope. I saw him in the Get Down. But something about him was like, yeah, he's a sponge. And so after we do Cutthroat City, I then move away from film and go to TV and do the Wu Tang series.

[C]

And you took him with you over there?

[A]

Took him over there. He's the only actor on the Wu Tang series that didn't have to audition.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. I was like, yo, I got something for you.

[B]

And is this. This is not just because you have an affinity for his name, because it reminds you of Shamik from 212?

[A]

He always say that.

[C]

And we made that same.

[B]

We make the same joke.

[C]

We make that joke.

[B]

Every time the name Shamik comes up in any way, we go from fucking 212.

[A]

Yeah, he always say that to us. He said that when he heard them heard that, he was like, yo, it was like serendipitous that he became part of the Wu Tang universe.

[B]

Who is Shamik from 212?

[A]

I don't know. You know what I mean? You see that?

[C]

Y' all just made that up in on the 36 or.

[B]

No, it wasn't your ad lib. It was. I think it was Ray's ad.

[A]

It was Ray and No, it was Ghost. It was Ghost. It was Ghost in his. And a couple of homies that we had in the studio at that time. But shoot. I mean, we don't know. No, yeah, it's Mini shot Meeks from 212, bro. You want to go back?

[C]

You know, listen, we just was listening to conversation.

[A]

Yeah. You know what I mean?

[B]

All right, so you brought. So you brought him over with you.

[A]

So then. So then on this. On this new project, One Spoon of Chocolate, I started writing it. Like 2011, got stuck 2015, I thought I'd try again. Instead of doing Cutthroat City, I said, let me try and do my own thing. Didn't come out. And then when the writer's strike happened, which you, of course, probably obvious when that happened. When the writer strike happened. You ain't supposed to write. I wrote. And so on the back of that tour bus on the New York State of Mind tour, this story just pulled out of me, bro. Came out like liquid. And then I went to. Shamik was like, yo, I think I got something for us.

[B]

You know, and now he's gotten bigger and he has more cachet to bring to the table.

[A]

And it's his talent. Yeah, it's really his talent. I know that. I know that this character, you know, the character is named Unique. And who else is named Unique in my life? Turt Dog. Exactly. Okay, so his name is Unique. His brother name is. His cousin name is Ramsey. In the, in the, in. In the movie. But what's Odori Brother's name? Ramsey. Amazing, right? So, so, and so I like to use that type of energy. But Unique Said, or Old Dirty said. I'm the one man army a son. Right. So he's never been took. Never been tooken out.

[C]

Keep MCs looking out.

[A]

So this character has to become that. Yeah, right. In my own interpretation. But when I had the script, though, it's like, how I'm gonna get it done. So the first person I went to was Paul Hall. You know, I mean, I went. Saw Quentin first in Amsterdam and was like, yo, I think I got something. So, okay, cool. You know, keep doing it. Do your shit. Then I went to Paul, said, yeah, I think I need you. I think when I. What I have here, I need your brain. I need the brain that, that, that, you know, that. That helped John Singleton do what he do. You know what I mean? And the cool thing that happened the other day, we showed it in D.C. at Howard, and the, the young people came up and a couple of them was like, yo, this is the new Higher Learning. I was like, okay. I didn't. I said, makes sense though, because I got Paul hall as a producer. It makes sense and shit. Yeah, but that's the process of that film, of how I got there after getting shot. Meek Moore. I got lucky. My casting agent, casting agent, Kim Harding. Hey, Kim. She brought Paris Jackson to the table.

[B]

So how did that go?

[A]

Did she.

[B]

Did she recommend her? Like, yeah.

[A]

She was like, yo, what about Paris Jackson? I was like, yeah, right. You know what I mean? Like, like, like, like they're not thinking that she would be a valuable. And then me and Paris did a zoom and she, because she read the script, she's like, yeah, I like this. I like this product. And she. She will make herself available. And she did, you know, she's great in the film. The crazy thing. I'll speak about her for a moment. The thing about her is that she don't need to do it.

[C]

Yeah, she want to do something dope, right?

[A]

So you, like, you know, she don't need to do nothing at the end of the Day.

[B]

I mean, she makes her music, she models. She does, but it's all the stuff she wants to do.

[A]

Exactly. She's not doing like most. Most artists, sadly, are doing art for the economic benefit of survival. Yeah.

[C]

Pay some bills.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So she ain't. She's not in that situation.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So for her to come get up in the morning, sit in that makeup chair, do these lines, do it again day after day, 30 day shoot. You know what I mean? Independent budget, you know what I mean? That means that you're in it for the art. And I found that very. I admired that about it. I was like, wow. I told. My wife is a producer of this as well, and she's executive producer and producer. Okay. It's like she didn't just put up

[C]

some bread and cream.

[B]

No. And she's on set.

[A]

And she's on set.

[C]

I wanted to go back. Cause oftentimes, when we get a chance to sit down with you, I don't think it's enough time is spent on the amount of effort you put into studying.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And you talked about traveling to just study what Quentin Tarantino was doing. I also know that you've gone and studied other things in your life where you've just spent years, months and years figuring out a thing. I want to hear more about that. Like, what's. What's one of the toughest things that you ever studied?

[A]

That's a good question. The toughest thing I ever studied.

[B]

Because you have studied.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, like.

[C]

And when I say tough, I mean maybe like, amount of time or a concept that it just took a long time for you to completely absorb and understand.

[A]

Like, for me, I mean, film will be. Will be the answer to that, to be honest with you, because I think I just fully understand it now. You know what I mean?

[C]

It's been 25 years.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But. But what I do. I'm glad you brought that up. What I do, no matter what I'm doing, right? Like. Like when I'm making a film, like when I was making man with the Iron Fist, that's my job. But what I was studying was genetics, right? So every day my study was my three genetic books. I wanted to understand how does. How does genetics work? How does microbiology work? Always, I'm very fascinated with science. But when I was doing Cutthroat City, though, and the Wu series, my big. Every day I would study quantum physics. You know what I mean? So. So I try to let my artist brain be doing one thing, then let my intellectual brain do another thing, and eventually, of course, they will cross pollinate themselves, you know what I mean? So then it'll show up in your art somehow. I'm not doing it for that intention. I just want to know, you know, I mean, I just want to.

[C]

Like you're curious.

[A]

Yeah, knowledge. Yeah, knowledge means to know. I don't want to really believe, and I don't want to think. I'm striving to know, even though I do believe. I do have faith and I do think. I think so I can say that. But it's really best if I be like, yo, nah, I know. You know what I mean? So that's, that's. That's. That's been a personality with me since.

[C]

Have you always been this way?

[A]

Since at least since 11. Since the Jizza gave me the enlightenment and knowledge itself, my. My thirst for. For knowledge has. Has been unquenchable, you know, and that's just me. How do.

[C]

How did you and the Jizza meet?

[A]

No, the Jizza is my family. Right. So.

[C]

Well, I mean, how did you meet at that point of sharing knowledge? Like, what happened in that moment?

[A]

This, you know, looked up to him a lot. Right. Ever since, like, what's your age difference again? Maybe three or four years. For four years. Right. So maybe at the age of seven. So if I'm seven, he 11. So that's a big cousin, you know what I mean?

[B]

Are you guys first cousins?

[A]

No, we're cousin. We're cousins through. Not for second cousins. Okay. Basically. But looking at, looking at him, looking at him, admiring him, you know, was with the magnetic attraction. But by the time I got to 11, he already was studying knowledge itself, you know what I mean?

[C]

Supreme mathematics.

[A]

Supreme mathematics. And he was like, yo, you gotta know this. Knowledge means to know. Look, listen, observe and respect. And I was like, wow, that sounded. Sounded sound right, you know what I mean?

[C]

And it sound fire when.

[A]

Yeah, sound good.

[C]

And your interest at this time, you're 11 years old, you're comic books, you're into.

[A]

Yeah, I'm into comics. Kung fu movies.

[C]

Yeah. So you're kind of already tapping into things that are dealing with, you know, ancient understanding to some degree.

[A]

Yeah. In all reality, what you don't know at the time. And I'm also heavy into the Bible, you know, I'm a. Like, I'm a Bible. Like, I'm a Bible lover. And so getting all that get in ourselves, it just really pushed me forward. And when he gave that to me, I just became like the type of brother that. That immersed Itself into the study. Let me give you one beat, though, because I used this in the film. I also then digressed a little bit. 11 years old, getting out of self, can't eat no pork and all that shit. Pork where every night. I mean, I'm from the Neck Bone family.

[C]

Spam, bacon. All of that Spam is a treat.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I mean, so.

[C]

So spamming some fried rice.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I'm. I'm at the. I'm in the. I'm in the. I'm in the pigtail family. They got pigtails in the pot.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

That's not a good dish.

[B]

No. You know, especially not when you're finding knowledge yourself.

[C]

This is working.

[A]

Exactly. So. So. So I was struggling with that in all reality, struggling with the eat. And I went dated, I eat, and I was super skinny. But. But then I actually digress. I ate a piece of pork. You know what I mean? Then I felt like I up. And then I stopped studying. And then there was this old dope fiend at my. That my aunt was dating. I didn't know, you know, what they both were doing, but she. But it was. But this was at the table, right? And he just leaned and kept nodding. And I'm just looking at him. Eleven years old, just checking them out, right? This is like, maybe I had knowledge for two months and now I chilled out for a month. But I'm watching this dude and he just. My grandmother offered him some. Some hot dogs. He's like, yeah, I take some hot dogs, man, but I don't want no pork in that shit. Make sure ain't no pork in it, man. The gods are right, man. I fucked up, but the gods are right. The gods are right. I'm like, I studied every day since then. I wasn't going to be him. And whatever he said, my. You know how you get that Z? And I went back, got my lesson. I ain't tell nobody now, though. Before you was like, yo, yeah, yeah. Then. Now I studied in private. And by the time I got 12, I knew 120. You know what I mean? And that's been my quest ever since, to continue to study. So I just wanted to point that out because in my film, our character Unique, he has a problem with anger management. And so they send him. He gets out of jail, but they send them to a veteran's house. He supposed to go to a halfway house, but they. But since he was a military, he got it like, we'll send you over here with these army vests that the government don't Give a fuck about. They wrote him off. And when he gets there, he's still angry. And he gets there one morning, and he's eating, he's making. He has breakfast. He got the milk, he got the chocolate. He digs in there. And only one spoon of chocolate, and he blows his cup. Boom. Who the left one spoon of chocolate in the can. You know how that goes.

[C]

That's the title.

[A]

Yeah. And the old man, he throws the food in the garbage, but the old man grabs the can, digs it out, take the one spoon out, puts it in the milk, and tells him one spoon of chocolate could change the whole glass of milk. And then it hits the kid like, wow. The change. To add that other element to yourself. And that was really my interpretation of that dope fiend, man.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Hitting me with that, with those words that day, you know what I mean? And then our character changed his path,

[C]

and it changed your character.

[B]

Yeah. Going back to the Jizza for a second, and you guys meeting. He's helping give you knowledge of self. When you're like 11, he's like 15. How shortly after that does he get his deal? And was he like. What was the order of that? And was. Was. Was Jizza, like, the first star of the. The family that people like? Oh, he's. He's. This kid's really gonna be something.

[A]

He's the one that introduced us to hip hop in all reality, you know what I mean?

[C]

So.

[A]

But he got his first deal at Cold chilling. No, he had a deal before Cold chilling.

[B]

He had a deal before Cold chillin.

[A]

Yeah. Cause look, back in those days, you had motherfuckers walking around with contracts. Yo, there was a dude, bro, the name was Eve St. James Saint like that. Yo, the dude named. I'm telling you, bro. But you heard Eve St. James Saint or St. James Eve Saint some. That was like, crazy, right? The dude might have. He might as well have been a pimp, you know what I mean? No disrespect to him, but he was the first one to kind of like. He gave a deal to Dirty and Jizza, the All In Together now crew. And they didn't put me down. I was like, yo, what up, man? But. But they were. Because it was like, in Brooklyn every day.

[B]

And this is Kid, then they're kids.

[A]

This is like 15, 16. Well, dirty was probably 16, so I'm 15. So Jose is. Is approaching young adulthood, and that didn't work out. But the tape All In Together now was made. It was all together. And I love rap. Those are the two shits o dirty on the beatbox, jizzle on the lyrics. But that tape found his hands into biz Markie hands, you know what I mean? So when. So when the time came when Mel Kwan became my manager, because Mel Kwan became Juja's manager then my manager. When he took Judah the tie. Rest in peace, the fly tie. When he took in the fly tie at cold chilling biz validated it. You see what I mean? Like, oh, those, those. I was like, that tape was like. Like people had that tape. I mean, it circulated. People even in Miami, that tape was down.

[C]

What year we. What year is this gotta be?

[A]

This is 86. 87. 87. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? So by the time he. So by the time he signs the cold chillin, it's probably 89, right at the end of. Cause I think Kane is on his second album. Right? Yeah. So that. So that was kind of the trajectory of that.

[B]

And then how much later do you get your deal?

[A]

I get my deal one year later, right. 90. I get my deal and I put my. And I come out in 91. Yeah.

[B]

Just hilarious. When the fact that your guys records, you come do me and Ooh, we love you, Rakim. The level to which labels can see talent and not know the best path to take them.

[A]

Exactly. Well.

[C]

But also too, I think to some degree, the artists you had to find your thing.

[A]

Yeah. Or you gotta. You know what? No, when you young and you don't know. Right. Cause you don't know the system, you're gonna actually doubt yourself.

[C]

Right.

[A]

You know, you're gonna doubt. You're gonna believe that that person knows better than you. You know what I mean? And you don't know. So. So. And that goes in any field. Every time you're doing something with a corporation or with a company, you think because they are in their position, they know the answer. But they don't know the answer, bro. No, I'm saying you gotta go with your instinct, but your instinct is it will be smothered by fear. You see what I mean? Like, yo, should I. Yo, this. Yo, if I go here, it ain't gonna work. And if it don't work, you know what I mean? And when she said that if I, you know, you know, like the tuxedo, you say that. You say like, you sure? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gonna be great. You're gonna look beautiful. All the girls gonna love it. Like, this is a whole. Imagine you're gonna come down like Frank Sinatra.

[B]

All right.

[C]

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[B]

Learn more at Go amex Graphite Real quick. Just back to the Parrish Jackson thing for a second because the movie just came out this week. Did you ever ask Paris on set? Like, did you ever get any stories or ask her about her pops at all?

[A]

Not. Well, no, not like that. Right? There was one scene that, that, that. That she. That actually didn't make the cut. But it was something that. It was something that I was. That I kind of wanted her to ad lib and say something that her father would say right.

[B]

As like a little Easter egg.

[A]

Yeah. And it was about. And the scene had took place. It was talking about corruption. We took it out of the movie. But it was a really powerful scene. But it just was. It would have stretched the movie too far. I'll tell you what happened was it was Rockman Dunbar, right, comes in with his wife, and his wife works in the hospital and he's a mortician, okay? And the wife is like, yo, I'm tired of watching these young black men coming to the hospital with toe tags. Like, she tired of these toe tags. And he. He goes, well, the guy was a drug dealer. And she goes, that doesn't mean nothing. He was a member of our community. Right? So that's. So that's the setting at Stakes. Like, just because he's a drug dealer don't mean he's not part of our community.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. Another young, dead black man. So then he starts saying, like, well, there's nothing we can do about it. And then Imiri and Paris character comes in, and Myri's the daughter and Paris is her best friend. And she says, what you mean ain't nothing we could do about it, dad. You always say we supposed to stand up and fight and blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, they start talking about this generation, like, your generation is lazy. Y' all video games want to be drug dealers and all this. And she go, but he's saying that to the daughter and the daughter, like, my generation is suffering from the trauma left behind by your generation. So this. And it's heated up and then. And you know, and then the mother's like, we're not going to keep having this fight. And Paris characters sitting there watching this family have this fight. And she goes, my dad always said the only way to stop evil and corruption is to expose it. And then she walks out. You know what I mean? But it didn't make.

[C]

I was like, damn, that's not even in there, though.

[A]

Yeah, that's not even in there.

[B]

That's the hard part about making these movies.

[C]

Yeah. And I was gonna ask you, because you're talking about instinct, and you're talking about believing in your instinct when you work with corporations, how are. How are you balancing your creative instinct with actually running the company and managing the business? Because that's. You're doing both.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's what. That's. That's why I'm so proud of this particular project in this film is because this is. This is letting the art speak for itself. It's certain things that. That. That maybe in the corporation, maybe I would have had more fear. Maybe I would have had the advice not to try it this way. You know what I mean? But I was just like, yo, bro, the reason why Wu Tang is in the hall of fame is because 36 chambers had no interference. Nobody came in and was like, yo, don't do that, yo, son. Two to five, cash flow, all that shit happened, bro. Nobody ain't stopped. None of that. Yeah. You know what I mean? I let it. The creative process was unhindered, and that's important. So regardless of whether it would have been successful or not, the completion of that, creativity exists. And that's what. That's. And that's. And that's. That's. But it became very successful. Right?

[B]

Did Rifkin push you on anything?

[A]

Nothing.

[B]

He just fully trusted. What do you bring to me? What you bring is what we know we need.

[A]

If you ask Steve what was his secret, when it came to me, he said, I just never told him no. The secret was telling him yes. You know, I mean, and we need more executives like that. Yeah, executives. That's like, yo, I got the money in the outlet. You got the talent. Now I can market it. Would you guys want to wear stocking caps? Okay. Right. You know, I mean, all right, okay. Maybe I'm marketing. You go out there with your stocking cap on. Not because I remember one executive was telling me, like, oh, hoodies. No, you guys, the hoodie's not going to work, bro. Everybody wear hoodies. Now, but there was a point where nobody wore hoodies, bro, where hoodies was not a fashion. You could wear a hoodie to work now.

[B]

Right? Don't consider this work.

[A]

But.

[B]

Yeah, I hear what you're saying.

[A]

No, but. No, no, I'm serious, bro. People.

[C]

Do people be wearing hoodies with their blazers. You. That's like a style.

[B]

No, it's every.

[A]

It's everything. You see it on mannequins. Yeah, look on the mannequin like, oh, dude, look like 1993. Right?

[B]

And you guys were. You had. Was it the Chess boxing video where everyone's wearing just the black hoodies with the. Like, the logo.

[A]

The logo, hoodies, gold space with the meth, with the cutout. It's like, what the hell is that? You know what I mean? But it was the art. It was so. So art has to not be hindered by. By corporations, you know? I mean, and every. And that happens every once in a while that it happened. Even you go back to nwa, you got to think about what they're saying. And the record guy is like, hey, it. Let's go.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I mean, it's like, pull the. The Senate. The senators was talking about hip hop. You remember that shit?

[C]

Oh, yeah, the parental advisory sticks.

[A]

Yeah. The snicker made it cooler. Yeah.

[B]

But I'm gonna say this is just a hip hop thought. But, like, an NWA is obviously unbelievably iconic. They changed the landscape of everything. But it is interesting because you could go back to the NWA records and I. At least. And this is just my interpretation as a fan, I can hear more of the label, like, hey, Express Yourself. This would really connect. Y' all didn't have anything like an express yourself.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Cream is not an express yourself.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You guys willed that into being a pop hit.

[C]

Well, but. And, But I think you said. I mean, the Method man record.

[A]

Oh, sure.

[C]

Was like, we knew the swing. I think you talked about the bounce and the swing of the record being something that you thought DJs wouldn't and clubs would really rock with.

[A]

I even thought Patek and I thought Patek and that would work with the. With the clubs. I thought that. I mean, if you could scratch it, I thought Chess boxing would work, to be honest. I'm gonna give it to you right. Like, if you could scratch it. Yeah, serious.

[B]

But that standard is like. That was still underground club feeling.

[C]

Right. But Method man, was this. The call and response was the sing along.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, I mean, they brought.

[B]

But if you listen to that record, sonically, now, even up against other records of that time, there were records that are not even poppy records that still sounded way cleaner than Method man sound.

[A]

Oh, cleaner for him.

[B]

Method man still sounds pretty dirty as a record.

[A]

But let me say something. Let me explain something to you, kid. So what happened to me in hip hop was that every time you go to studio, the song don't sound like the demo. Okay? So, like, when the Jizza did his album, Words From a Genius, I like the demo tape. When he came back from the studio, I was like, you know what I mean? To me, just for my sonic, that could have been my own whatever, my own personal aesthetic. But I wanted 36 chambers to sound like the demo. Like, you getting the demo. You're not getting the.

[C]

That's a part of the art, though.

[A]

Yeah, you getting the real. You're not getting the. Now the dude doing all this shit. Yeah, yeah, all that shit. But now, of course, I didn't realize that when you put it on a. When you compare it to another record and you're trying to mix another record, it's like, okay, this one, I gotta push the fade up on these. But I ain't thinking about that. I'm thinking about the listener getting the experience of the rawness of the energy.

[C]

Well, that particular body of work, right? Like you created a piece of art here is the whole thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Start to finish. You listen to this from track one, straight through. It feels, it looks, it sounds.

[A]

This is. I don't care what he doing. I don't care what he's doing. Yeah, I don't care what he's doing. This is that. And you're going to feel something. So. And for those who fell in love with it, they felt something. You know what I mean?

[C]

A lot of people fell in love with it.

[B]

Oh, no, no, no.

[C]

Just look.

[A]

Got tens of millions now.

[C]

Well. And y' all are in the Rock and Roll hall of Fame.

[B]

And for the record, and we'll get to that, the next record, Wu Tang Forever, is way brighter.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I mean, the second you hit play, it's brightness. Did you have any arguments at all or discussions with Puff on Long Kiss Goodnight? Because that album is really pretty bright relative to a RZA production.

[A]

No, no, no, no. I mean, that's. That's the sound that they. That they mastered. That's what they was going for.

[B]

So did you take. After you made that record, did you take any hands off and allow them to do things to it or what?

[C]

Did you.

[B]

Were you hands on all the way till the end?

[A]

I don't know. They. They probably did the final, final mix, you know.

[B]

And you were cool with it, though?

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

It came out great.

[A]

I mean, of course. I mean, I gave. I made the track. I mean, I always demo whatever it is. I like turn the faders on. Bong, bong. I do the automation. So that's my vision of it now. You know, you could do what you want with it once I walk away. Because now you got to play with it. But it's not far from. From my vision on what it. On what it was, what it sound like, the way it started, the way it goes, wasn't far. It wasn't far from it.

[B]

You know, it's probably the. It's probably the darkest record on the album.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

So that's what they wanted, you know what I mean?

[C]

Is there something between 36 Chambers and Wu Tang forever? When he talks about brightness, right? In that mix that you were like, no, I'm specifically going to make this album sound different than 36 chambers.

[A]

I mean, I think Old Dirty's album is more bass. You get more base.

[C]

Yeah, super.

[A]

Yeah. And that was. That was. That was. He wanted that and we gave that to him. You know, I mean, I think Cuban links, once again, you get a variation, right? You get. You get some songs that like Ice Cream, that's like push out single material.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But then you still get a song like Spot rushes. It's like, yo, what the fuck is going on?

[B]

Yeah, and knuckleheads, like in between, you have one kind of bright and fun.

[A]

Yeah. Low filtered. To me, it's like a music. This is me on music. Music gotta have an original feeling to it in order for it to be like when I go back and listen to those records. Like I was in the restaurant last night, which was interesting, right? The dj that wasn't a dj, it was just a restaurant, right? But the guy was playing 90s hip hop. So first thing that I noticed as I'm eating was Big Pimping comes on, which is really big Timberland clean big, right? And you know, and people in the. In the restaurant was vibing with it, right? Then the song he plays after it was All I Need, Method man, the razor sharp mix, right? And the difference was people kind of. You heard a few people were singing along with some of the words, you know what I mean? But the sonic quality did like this, you know what I mean? But then if I Rule the World came on. No, but the sonic quality was still right here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Because it was. That Time period.

[A]

Exactly. So three years from there. So you look at big pimp, and that's what, 299 maybe? Yeah. Okay, then. So now equipment is better, studios are better, engineers are better hip hop. Because at one point, yo, and I ain't saying this to be at one point, you know, minus Rick Rubin and a few others, Bob Powers, whatever.

[B]

Rest in peace.

[A]

Rest in peace. The. The engineers don't know what the they doing, bro. They haven't had this music, you know, I mean, so they're making it like they're punk or like their rock. Right. They don't have enough knowledge of it to be like, yo, this, this, this, that. The third, they doing the technical that they know even, oh, we love you, Hakeem sounds better. Sonically. There's some of the Wu Tang songs, but you don't feel it. You don't feel something else. That's. That's. That's the tone that's happening. So that was important for me to, to make you feel something. On Cuban Links, no engineer, and on Liquid Sports, no engineer touched the board. I did it myself. I really. Because on Method man album, I went to Chung King engineer, and I was like, yo, and I, you know, back then, this white on the. He doing yo, straight up, that's how you felt like, yo, this don't know no, son, you know, I mean, like, yo, that when you leave the room, I. I this up like this he comes out, yo, like, yo, you're doing the red. You're being ready, man. Order in the red, bro. You know? I mean, you don't hear that, bro. Nah, it's gonna. It's gonna phase, but you don't realize that it is gonna phase out, so. But still, I didn't. I never liked how Takao came out because I felt like the studio once again forced me to be. To make it what it is versus me. Just like, like on Cuban Links, bro. Nobody was even in the. No, no, no hand touched that shit.

[B]

But isn't that funny that the proof is in the pudding? Like, if you ask the average Wu Tang fan how they rank those albums, a lot of people have Tikal at the end of it. And it is interesting that that's the one that your hands are finishing.

[C]

But that is also, you know, when you talk about mixing and mastering, talking about different frequencies and feelings. Right? That, like, unless you're. That's something you study on and something you absorb, most people aren't going to just walk in a room and understand these nuances. Yeah. You know what I Mean, you're going to just go for a certain. And you notice a lot of engineers have their thing. Yeah, this is the way I do.

[B]

Right. It's just the way I do things.

[A]

And it's a science. So. No, no, they look, they're smart. They know the curve, they know the shelf. They know what the fuck they posted. They know you got to boost the 90Hz frequency for the voice. They know what they know. And I know it now. You know what I mean? Yeah. But it still was something else that was happening that nobody knew. But the ear.

[B]

That was ear and heart and all that.

[A]

Yeah. And the instinct isn't interesting, though, in

[B]

retrospect, like Takao being what it is. It's kind of perfect that it was meth who had that album, because meth star power was so much. That he was the one who could withstand an album that had questions about it. And obviously, as we see, it worked out just fine for Method man in every way possible.

[A]

You got a double platinum album, bro.

[B]

Yeah, bro. Exactly.

[A]

Back when you had. Back when somebody had to get up and wipe their face and go to the store. Yeah. You couldn't download that. You had to go buy it. Think about that.

[B]

That is so crazy, man.

[C]

All those albums, a lot of effort the consumer had to put out to get your album back.

[A]

Then what did.

[B]

What did Dirty. Went platinum.

[A]

Platinum. Everybody's platinum.

[B]

Every. All the first ones went platinum.

[A]

Yep. All platinum.

[B]

Gravediggers go platinum.

[A]

No, Grave Diggers. Bobby Digital gold. I would tell people, yeah, by myself, I could get you a gold. I could get you a gold album. Which is. Yo, hold on. Gold is a very.

[B]

Gold's great, bro.

[A]

Very satisfying.

[B]

No, you. But you're. Think about what a nut you are. You went like grave diggers and Bobby Digital. Like you had all this success in front of you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're like, how can I do the weirdest shit humanly possible? And I love the Grave Diggers, but I think a big grave digger.

[C]

No, but here's the thing, though. If you're listening to this conversation close, right. And I'm. Obviously, I've known you and had private combos where you try to understand how your brain works. I only think he cares about art. And at the end of the day.

[A]

Right, yeah, exactly.

[C]

Because the other thing we. I want to get a catch up on speaking of art is the Wuang album. That's the art installation that we don't get to hear until the year 3000 or whatever the it is.

[A]

Well, you got 80 years left it's getting closer.

[C]

3000. But, but, but I've heard it at an art gallery one time and the. Maybe I was gassed and in the moment, but the. Was fire.

[B]

I believe that.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Why would I not.

[C]

But, but why do you do that? You do that because you're Bobby Digital and you like to like, put art into the universe. Even the movies that you make, some obscure, some mainstream, some. You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, it was still a fat. It's a fascinating moment when you think about it, that. That was your choice.

[A]

Yeah. First of all, Grave Diggers. Right. Once again. Like, there's a lot of, A lot of people that strive to get in our business that strive to be heard. Right? And they won't be heard unless somebody raised, raised the flag for them to be heard. When the Gravediggers came out, bro, the, the people that came out of the woodworks, that was, that wanted to be MCs. I had to do this dude came in, he was. Had a crazy style, but, but, but he. That it was, it was hundreds of them. That, that, that, that had no, no, there's no reference. There's no outlet for that. You know what I mean?

[B]

Wait, so did you and Prince Paul come together first and then find the rappers for the other rappers for the group?

[A]

No, no. Prince Paul called me Fuquan and two Poetic. Okay. They, they were. We were all Tommy Boy artists, right?

[B]

Stetsasonic.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

And he was like, for him, we was. We was amongst his favorite MCs. Okay. And so he was like, yo, I want these dudes. I want to bring you guys together and, and yeah, make a project. And at the same time, I'm developing Wu Tang at the same time. You know what I mean? So it was really a parallel path.

[B]

Oh, wait, wait. So you were working on the, the first album as you were working on

[A]

Wu Tang as an emcee. I was going to Long island, dropped my bars for Prince Paul for Gravediggers. And as a producer, a Wu Tang member, I'll be making the Wu Tang I was bong bonging.

[C]

Well, I didn't even.

[B]

I never knew that till today. Yeah, I always thought it was the project you decided to do after.

[A]

No.

[B]

So. And it makes sense. You guys are all Tommy boy, cuz at the time, Poetic and Fruit Kwan with you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And for me, it's just like going back to the art of it all. So think about that, right? I mean, think about me even here this morning, right? It's just like, yo, why am I here? This is deep.

[B]

We asked. We're just thankful.

[A]

Listen.

[C]

We were just thankful.

[A]

We got.

[B]

We're just happy.

[A]

We're happy. We get. No, I'm here. I'm here because of the art, bro.

[C]

That's it.

[A]

I could. Don't mean. Trust me, yo, me and the Wiz, we could just sit up in the sun. And that's what it is.

[B]

But this movie isn't about making RZA rich.

[A]

No, this movie, the we. This movie, we self funded this movie, bro. So that means that we could have took. Took $10 million and did something else. You know what I mean? But the art hit me, like I said, on the back of that. On the back of that tour bus, 60, 70 pages came out. You know what I mean? So it's like. So I sat down with my wife, I said, yo, what you want to do? Like, you know, because we into real estate now. So he's like, well, we could get another. Add another thing to our portfolio, right? Or we could add. We could do a movie. And she said, what do you want to do? I said, I don't know. I'm like, I feel my instinct. I feel like I got. I feel like I should make this movie. She's like, all right, I'm gonna support you. And then we did it. So, so the point being made is like, yo, but when you, when you know, the thing about it is when you watch it, bro, some people are gonna be scared, you know, I mean, some people gonna feel like, yo, it may polarize in a way, even though it's a fucking grindhouse piece of material, right? The, the, the, the. That's the woo of it or 36 chamber of it is in there. So the Wu fans want to get it, right? So you figure, why the fuck does a WU fan, like you said, it feels that Cream is a pop song, and then they make it pop because they get it. They feel it. Even, yo, even like, you know, I'm gonna say this to my tomorrow, to my white brothers. It's like, yo, they felt the big brotherhood of wu. They felt like, yo, these dudes got my back. They felt that, yo, these dudes are countering some of that that I'm hearing they get in bars that they could utilize. I did sign ins, and I'm not talking about myself like that, but I did sign ins. Long line of millionaires come up.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

And be like this, yo, bro, thank you. I'm a millionaire thanks to you guys and what you said. And like, so, so, so hitting frequencies, right? And then you Got those who like, yo, they like, yo, they, they rather keep everybody in a sheep state of mind, you know what I mean? And they think that just because it's loud and clear that it's clean, it ain't clean.

[B]

And just because, just because it's dark and dirty doesn't mean it's not clean.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

It ain't dark and dirty, but it's pure, right? Yeah, it's the purity, you know what I mean? And so, and so when you even so once again on this art, on this art journey, the purity is in this film. And, and, and yo, it's, it's, it's. You're going to see it. Those who see it, go see it. Trust me. If it makes you uncomfortable, good, because now you feel something, right? You know what I mean? Which is important. Like to me, art should, you should feel something. How many times you go and you don't feel nothing, you know? You know the Michael Jackson film that's out now, congratulations to his family and everybody. Sometimes some of the critics say, oh, why they didn't go into some of the sucker, right? And he's like, yo, bro, this, this, this lady took her, took her like four or five year old son to Michael Jackson. And the kids dancing in the aisles,

[B]

he's feeling something, feeling something.

[A]

You don't need this fucking going to that other fucking chamber.

[B]

No.

[A]

So you want to feel something. So art should do that for you at least. If it makes you angry, okay, take that anger and try to understand it. If it makes you happy, take that happiness and try to understand. But if it just make you want some and nothing happening, okay, I don't care if you sell, I don't care. You know, I said it's way back in the Wu Tang days and this is no disrespect to the brother because I think the brother's a great brother and I really respect them. But I just say this in all my old interviews because, you know, we're trying to get. They was like, so what do you think about Wu Tang? You know, you think you guys are going to make it? You know, you know, you know, MC Hammer is the biggest selling artist, you know, 10 million records, you know, I said, well, if MC Hammer sells 10 million records, you know what I mean? That's okay, that's great. But that's 10 million people that might still be sleep. I said, if wu Tang sell 1 million records, be 1 million people that wake up, all right? And that's the change, okay? So, so that, that kind of, you Know like not saying in an egotistical way and respect the hammer like you said, you got to pray to make it today. But you know what I mean? But I knew that, that, that the inspiration of what we was doing, what we were saying was, would be a different type of change, a different type of unity, a different type of community to come together. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. It's no coincidence. Like it's no coincidence that the kind of. I'm not saying that every person Wu Tang affected because you guys are very popular, that everybody lived their life the right way and obviously nothing's a monolith. But it's not a coincidence that like my dearest friend Chauncey, who's a professor at a university, who just wrote another book about the, the problems of the moderate white man, how the moderate white man is like the poison of America. It's not a coincidence that all him and I do is quote old Dirty bastard to each other. And Wu Tang, like there is something about what you connected with on a brain wavelength that really did affect people in a real way. Like Wu Tang really was for the children. We didn't know what Dirty was talking about at the time. I'm not convinced he knew what he was talking about at the time.

[A]

But he did, he knew.

[B]

He did know.

[C]

Now was, was Dirty talking about the children, the greater children or Yalls children? Because definitely Wuang was for Yalls.

[B]

That's true too.

[C]

The way the licensing and the logo and the, all of the ownership. It was for the children.

[A]

No, he was talking about the world's children. You know, I mean, Dirty was a big, big, big Marvin Gay fan as well. He always wanted to do that song Save the Children over. I don't know. You know that. Yeah. And so, no, that's, that's why he said he's like, yo, Puffy's good, can't take enough. But Wu Tang is for the children. If the children get a hold of, you know, of, of the, of, of some of these ideas, some of this, some of the woo energy, it's going to be more healthier. Even though, even if you say, yo, Wu Tang Clan, ain't nothing to. With you know how many people that made them that would, it felt, it made them feel powerful versus, you know what I mean?

[C]

Feeling like insecure and second guessing yourself.

[B]

Where were you in the moment? Were you in the audience in the moment when Dirty went, were you backstage?

[A]

No, I ain't go at all. I already knew what was going to happen.

[B]

Oh, you knew. You guys Weren't going to win.

[A]

Yeah. I told dirty. I said, yo, bro, I mean, it's how I felt. So I'm not saying this out loud and shit. I said, bro, they gonna use us to make the others look good, great. And our business do that all the time.

[B]

And you didn't feel like being a pawn in the category.

[A]

Yo, if I say. If I say Mike Tyson, right? And there's this new heavyweight guy coming in, he goes, this guy reminds me of the new Mike Tyson. You going. You going to check this motherfucker out, bro.

[B]

Right?

[A]

So sometimes you got to use and that's. That's business. Or sometimes you got to pick the categories, like even on the even. Like, you may watch the Oscar go so and so, so and so. Very rarely the best win. But the who win is now the best. Right, because you pit him up against the best. One of my. One of the one. I gotta say this out loud. You could. Y' all could beat me. Cut me and let me know if I'm going too far. Amazon works for the company.

[C]

Absorb. He's not going too far.

[B]

He's good. Yeah, he's Gucci.

[A]

No. But now I'll let you know though, I'm a big fan of Casey. Casey Affleck.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Right. The guys a great actor, really found something and really gets it. But the year he beat Denzel was a. He didn't believe it. He beat Denzel on the fences. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, on the fences.

[A]

Oh, yeah. He beat him with the. What was that movie?

[B]

Just the fact that it happened in retrospect sounds crazy. On offensive, respectfully, it sounds.

[A]

It would have been on the Gladiator. Two year old.

[C]

Maybe Fences, no offenses, defenses.

[A]

Yo, that was a master class of acting and teaching. And. And I'm not saying that Casey movie was something to do with Manchester by the Sea.

[B]

I'm bored just hearing about it now.

[A]

Look, no, the Manchester by the Sea is a. It's a good movie too. Right, right. Especially for me. What it did for me. I didn't know that white people was living like that. Right, right. It really gave us a look until.

[C]

I don't even know what you're talking about. My g. I ain't gonna hold you. I didn't see it.

[B]

Yeah, if you saw He's a c. No, he's just.

[C]

Yeah, bro, he's qu. Yo, his thing with movie. Are y' all paying attention to how much he remembers movies?

[B]

Yeah, I don't. I. I don't know if I saw. But I did see Fences.

[A]

But if you do take a look at it. You'll. You'll get a. You'll get a glimpse into white life and tragic in a way that. That you don't normally see. Caught on cinema. So. So it definitely belongs in that year in the top right. Fences was again a look at black life, right? Denzel, his wife and that family.

[C]

But the performance, not Denzel rocked it

[A]

Offenses bro slays the performance of Manchester by the Sea. Right? And there was one scene in Manchester by the Sea that because I was saying because, you know, I get the vote too, right? So I'm looking, I'm like. I'm like, this is. This is the top runner. I'm looking. And then I'm like, if he does this one thing, then maybe he didn't do.

[B]

Didn't hit for you.

[A]

He didn't do it. He did. He did the bars. He didn't drop the last four bars. Right, right. Like, you know how it just would be like not as. Just always in his lyrics with some. Now it's all over. Seeing pink heart, yellow moons, orange stars. And it's always something. Yo, that dude that. He ended it though, homie. Didn't end his.

[C]

Always lands it. Yeah.

[A]

Denzel landed his shit, right? And faces, bro.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so point being made though.

[B]

Denzel's been that role a bunch of times where they. They gave it to someone else. But you knew Denzel's performance was point. Exactly.

[C]

They're putting Denzel in there with a bunch of other people to up their value, right?

[A]

So that's part of the business though, right? And you know, look, and it's all they said is what objective or subjective? When it. When it's like subjective, it's all subjective, right? Objective mean it's facts.

[B]

That's what you like.

[A]

Yeah, I like objective.

[B]

Yeah. No, it's all subjective.

[A]

So it's all subjective, right? At the end of the day. Or shall I say it can be subjective.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. Right here we just was all objective like Denzel.

[B]

But I always feel that way about Denzel's big performances. Right.

[C]

You know, let me. I was. I wanted to ask you, speaking of movies and just everything we're talking about right now. You saw Michael the. Or you haven't seen.

[A]

I haven't seen it.

[C]

Okay, well, then I'm gonna see Curious for your thought.

[B]

It's. I really enjoyed it. Curious for your thoughts.

[C]

We both. We both loved it, so I already

[A]

know it's gonna be a masterpiece.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

We went in know what we were

[C]

expecting to see, and I went with My daughter. I went with my daughter and my lady. Right. So I'm. And of course, I feel closer to Michael just at being in music and, you know, knowing what his records meant to people, knowing a lot of the inner. The stories, having, you know, met people who worked on Michael things and, you know, so I know some of the nuances, and I get why there are individuals out there critiquing it the way that they are. But to your point of what Michael means to just joy and a talented guy who made incredible art and entertained the world with nails, that stuff. There's a piece of it, though, that I want to talk to black men about, though, because the Joe Jackson piece is fascinating to me. Right. And important. Right. Because.

[A]

Hey, Mama, thanks for making all my favorite recipes.

[B]

Hi, Ma.

[A]

Thanks for your unfiltered advice. Hi, Mom. Thanks for always being by the phone.

[C]

Hey, Mom. Happy Mother's Day.

[A]

When you share UPS air at the UPS Store, your items arrive on time or your money back guaranteed at no extra cost. Exclusively at the UPS store US retail locations. Visit the upsstore.com airshipping for full details. Terms and conditions apply. Send your Mother's Day gifts at the UPS store and we'll get your gratitude there on time.

[C]

You know, I can. We could talk about the movie, how you don't feel like I'm ruining it for you.

[A]

No, no, we can talk.

[B]

He knows how Michael's life played out.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know the story. So. Yes, they show Joe Jackson whipping, ass whipping Michael. There's one whipping scene with Joe Jackson with the belt. There's.

[A]

They. They. They watered it down.

[B]

They. They made it a powerful one.

[C]

They made it a powerful one and showed him.

[B]

And showed him calling him big nose one time.

[C]

One time. Okay, okay. But they also showed Joe Jackson in the kitchen with all them damn kids. And they show Joe Jackson pulling up in front of his house and that Volkswagen broke down. Volkswagen bus after a long day work, struggling to kind of slowly walking into the house after working at the steel mill. And there's a scene in there where he's sitting with the family. He's basically like, do y' all want to work at a steel mill in Gary, Indiana? Because y' all black, right? And we have an opportunity basically to get out of here. Or is this what y' all want to do?

[A]

Right?

[C]

Everybody's like, yes, this is what I want to do. And then the movie proceeds to show you this is the path, and I' ma push it.

[B]

And he might be flawed on that path, but the path is clear.

[C]

And as a black man and as a father, right? And so Joe Jackson reminds me of my dad, right? Getting my. I got my ass whooped.

[A]

Right.

[C]

My dad was flawed, right. But he was really ready to push it, cuz you not ending up in this same place where I ended up.

[A]

Right?

[C]

And I'm gonna make sure you don't.

[A]

Right?

[C]

But that energy now, you know. Well, now, because now when they tell the Joe Jackson story, a lot of it is about his toxicity and abuse and rightfully so.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But there's also a piece of me that's like, yo, by the time Mike was born, bro has seven children, right? We counted the other seven.

[B]

He's the seventh, I think.

[C]

So Mike comes out and singing like that, right? And Joe's like, nah, bro, we out of here, bro.

[A]

Exactly. Right. I got one.

[C]

But you feel me like, I feel like that's a discussion because Even today, in 2026, you told me before we sat down, like, you know, your father and the kids moved out. Now you actually put in that work. Yeah, right. The touring, the grinding, taking the risks so that your children have a completely different life and opportunity than what you started with.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And so I don't know if a lot of people get to have that convo.

[A]

Well, it's a good combo to have, right? From both perspectives, from the time when that type of discipline was normal, right. To the time where that type of discipline becomes abnormal. So by the time I'm a father, we're getting to the cusp of it being abnormal as you as a father, it's kind of abnormal. Yeah.

[C]

Well, I've never disciplined my children in any other way other than taking toys away and like putting them in their room with nothing to play with.

[A]

Right. So that's something. So, so, but you know, I'm from 11, you know, I mean, so I, I'm, I'm, I have been. I come from a discipline generation.

[C]

11 kids in the house.

[A]

Yeah. I'm one of 11 children. And, and, and I mean, the discipline that I went through, bro, is definitely legal child abuse. Not for my mother. My mother sent us away to my Aunt Goldie, and I love Aunt Goldie, but on Goldie, bro, I mean, I mean, she might have whipped me if I was there for 300 days. I got 200 weapons.

[C]

Was it to switch off the tree joint?

[A]

Switch off the bro. She whipped me with the racing track, whatever, extension cord, whatever, whatever she got her hand on, bro. And me and my brother talk about it nowadays, we go, go. We were some bad little though like we did go steal the whole carton of cigarettes and smoke them shits. You know what I mean? You gave her no choice, you know what I'm saying? But. But what? The two things I think talk about as a father and as a family is that a lot of parents don't understand how to be fathers and mothers and how to raise children, you know? And as a black man, we don't even have enough generations of fathers, you know? I mean, we come from, take the kid over there, take the mother over there, and the mother might be banging this guy.

[C]

The master, getting raped by the master.

[A]

We come from a different trajectory of fatherhood, discipline and all that. And all we knew is what we learned, right? So we come from whip a motherfucker.

[B]

Well, that's the thing I keep thinking about this week. I've thought about it now multiple times, is that the only people in my life who have ever told me stories about being whipped by their parents are black Americans. That cannot be coincidental coming from enslaved people that. Well, that's. What.

[A]

That's.

[B]

You get this.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

I'm not saying it never happened to white kids, but I never heard. I don't know.

[C]

There's definitely religious households who are. They aren't black.

[B]

And we still do a belt where

[C]

belts and whippings were. Are a thing.

[A]

That's true, because it says, don't spare the rod.

[C]

Spare the rod, spoil the child. Allegedly in the Bible. I've never actually looked.

[B]

You never went and did the research?

[C]

I never actually.

[B]

That's what they wanted.

[A]

Yeah, but at the end of the day, though.

[B]

But you were not far removed from. At your point, especially Joe Jackson's generation. Your mom's Aunt Goldie's generation.

[A]

How.

[B]

How. How close?

[C]

My grandmother, Right. So, yeah, my grandmother is born in 1925 in Muskogee, Oklahoma. What is that?

[A]

Oh, if you think about 19. So this gets. Throw your numbers on that. That's not. 40 years, bro. Yeah, from. From.

[C]

Yeah, it's like 60, right? It's like. Well, from the day of the announcement.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah, think about that.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Announcement.

[C]

60 from the announcement. Probably 40. 40 from when they figured out, you know, reconstruction. Yeah, but then you're in Jim Crow, right? At that.

[A]

Yeah. So, yeah, it was. And she was. She was whooping ass, Wasn't.

[C]

She was whooping ass.

[A]

But.

[C]

But then my father's whooping ass.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You see what I'm saying?

[A]

And then.

[C]

But now me.

[A]

Right? You. Not.

[C]

Not.

[A]

Because you was the whoop. You got whooped.

[C]

Well, I got whooped. And I also, just like you said, you got whooped 200 days out of 300, you still stole the pack of carton and smoked the cigarettes.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So is it really the whooping that's the deterrent? Nope, nope. It's the conversation and the time and the kid understanding values that becomes the deterrent.

[B]

I'm always miffed by that. When I hear stories, when people romanticize whoopings or whatever, and they're always like, well, back in the day, in the 90s. And I'm like. But I remember kids were out of control in the 90s. People act as if because the whoopings were happening, all the kids were getting in line. That didn't happen.

[A]

No.

[B]

Effective parenting is effective parenting.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

An effective parent. Now, I'll use myself, for example, and go in my house for a moment. I whipped my sons one time. You know what I mean? It was tough. And I whooped them because they lied, bro. And they told a lot. And I told him, look, only you can't. You can't lie to me. I got to know. I don't care if you did it. I got to know because I got to deal with it. So they was honorable in the sense that they both stuck to the lie. Right. And I admired that part of that. I mean, that they got less chastisement

[C]

because they had a code of ethics

[A]

amongst them, each other. Yeah. And so. And, and so. But they, you know, that was the only time they. And they, they. And they. My sons grew up. They're good dudes, and they still don't lie.

[C]

So my approach on the lie, because Issa has lied to me, was me to get her to understand how I can't support you if you're lying. If you tell me the truth, we get to work together to find a solution.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's a great way to put it.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Same thought.

[A]

You.

[C]

Same. Same thing. But. And there's nothing big, but just honestly so small, it made me more upset.

[A]

Right.

[C]

That you're lying about this. Now we have to talk about you understanding our family. Me as your father, my ability to support you as a human being. Yeah, right. Because, you know, you're dealing with girls. My. I definitely can't be hitting on a girl like you. I can ever make violence on my girls.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But also, never forget you have a Jewish mother. So the power of guilt is in you.

[A]

Well, you know how to use that one. But how about.

[B]

How about this?

[C]

My mom was taking the belt to me and my brother, and, you know, my Brother. My brother's white. We have different dads. My mom is coming in with the. And you know when you got a little mom. My mom's 5 4. We're like 5 10, you know, 6ft tall in our teens. She's coming in.

[B]

Your mom too?

[C]

Yes. When she got. When she went there? Yes.

[B]

Wow. Where'd she learn it from? She. Did she get it in the foster homes?

[C]

Maybe she got it in. In the orphanage or.

[B]

Orphanage.

[C]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense. Orphanages in.

[C]

In the time my mom was born in 1945. So they was taking the ruler to the hand and all that back then.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Because remember, that was a thing in Catholic schools. The nuns was in Catholic school.

[A]

But that was the thing. When I went to school, I went. My first two years of school was in North Carolina, Muffinsboro. And you get weapons in public school. Public school. You got whoopings, bro. I mean, they had the shit.

[C]

They had the little paddle on the wall.

[B]

I just want to add his recommended listening for this interview now. Whip Me With a Strap by Ghostface produced by J. Dilla. It's the greatest hip hop whipping song of all time.

[A]

With a strap.

[B]

With a strap. He named the song and the whole thing is Ghost just giving descriptions of getting whippings the whole song.

[A]

Oh, shit. Ghost is just a genius, bro.

[C]

Nah, Ghost, man.

[A]

Man.

[C]

Yo, R. It's been a great time today. We. I want to get to the Rock and Roll hall of Fame and let you tell us the way out here. Is there anything you could share a about, you know, that moment you all learned that you were inducted how, what it means and then. Are we getting a Wu Tang performance? Yeah.

[B]

Are you still going with the lie that y' all never return again?

[A]

He was.

[C]

Oh, by the way, sidebar. He's never mad about that.

[B]

I never believed it.

[C]

He's mad that y' all went out and said the last two tour. He was pissed.

[B]

It can't be the last tour. It worked great.

[A]

I mean, it seems. Listen. Oh, let me say this to you about the last tour. So the last tour, Final Chamber was the plan of it is to do. I said about a hundred. Maybe 120 is the max of shows and spread it around the world.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It wasn't just like, so, yeah, we're not coming back to the Garden. I don't see that happening.

[B]

You don't see it happen.

[A]

Don't see that happening.

[B]

What would you say if I said I do?

[A]

Then we'll see. We'll see each other on that day.

[B]

We will.

[A]

And I'll be like, he was right.

[B]

Because everyone I've talked to had so much fun. It sounds like y' all enjoy it. Sound like you guys have now kind of perfected where you're at as a touring band. I talked to Ray. Ray was so happy. He was like, oh, this is the best.

[A]

I was like, I know it's good times, but keep. But it's still. Still difficult.

[B]

It's right corralling.

[A]

Yeah, still difficult. But I will say.

[B]

But it's not done yet either. You're saying you're still off?

[A]

Yeah, we're probably like, 70 in now. Okay. We just did 20 over in Europe. But. But you see what happened in Australia, though.

[B]

What happened in Australia?

[A]

Oh, yeah, some have some absentees.

[C]

Oh, no.

[A]

Exactly. You can't have no absentees. If you have an absentee, it doesn't count. Exactly. And when that started happening, then you got to start thinking how many absentees you have. No. Yeah, yeah. Three or four SMTs, bro.

[B]

In Australia.

[A]

Yeah, bro. You know how that feels, bro, when you walk on stage and you're like, yo, hold on. You know that the dude ain't in the back. You know what I mean? That's like.

[B]

Do you address it to the audience?

[A]

Yeah, eventually, you know, eventually depends on the current. Like, if it feels really cold, you know? You know, listen, guys, let me tell you something. And. But. But, you know, you. You know, the funny thing is I'm the first one out. Like, I'm the. Like, it's me.

[C]

So it's like, yo, y' all open with Bring the Ruckus?

[A]

No, we was opening with Sunshower Sunshine. Yeah. It's like, that's what I felt was needed. You know what I mean? And I came up from under the

[C]

ground like, oh, you had that joint.

[B]

Can I defend your brothers for a second, though? Good Australia so far, bro. I mean, of all the ones. It's tough. Nah, it's tough. I did it. I went to Australia last year.

[A]

Look, it's tough. Some. Some. Some of it was playing some of it. Look, Australia, if you got a felony,

[C]

you can't even go.

[A]

So we surprised the ones that got in. Got it. You know what I mean? But regardless, it was on your schedule and, you know, just take the time.

[B]

So what do you do when that happens? Do you have a conversation? Is there a tough conversation when it happens, or is it just like, come on, bro.

[A]

Yeah, just come on. I mean, we're there.

[B]

Everyone's grown up.

[A]

Yeah, you're going to do. I Mean, you won't be there. You won't be there. Not gonna be there. That's up to you now.

[B]

But you're also not gonna get the check if you're not there, correct?

[A]

Yeah. It can't be about the check. Right.

[B]

You have to want to be there.

[A]

Yeah. At this age. And this. Like I said, yo, what am I doing here, bro?

[C]

Listen, we say the same thing to each other every morning we come and

[A]

do this show, believe me, because we.

[B]

It ain't checking right now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you do know. If it comes, it comes. But, yo, bro, you had. Yeah, but I. But going back.

[C]

But you gotta love it, and you gotta love why you're doing. Yeah.

[A]

And also, in my opinion, you do have the gratitude back to the people that did pitch their kids through college.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

That did. The audience allow us to say that it ain't about the check, right?

[B]

That's true. Well, if it makes you feel any better, I'd like to say I've proudly been seeing Wu Tang shows in which everybody didn't show up for a long time.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

I saw you guys at the University of Maryland, 1997. Old Dirty was nowhere to be found.

[C]

And I gotta thank you because, you know, I was able to license the Wu Tang logo and book all of you. For some of you.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

After. After a disastrous 90s, it was able to turn back.

[A]

Did we all come? Yeah, I think everybody was bama Lama, Bama Lama.

[B]

All right. And to the Rock and Roll hall of Fame.

[A]

Super duper happy, giddy, joyful. Felt like a kid, Feel like a kid still, you know, it's like, come on, bro. For me is for me, for the whole clan, everybody, you know, Cor Meth, yo, it feels good, right? Yeah, God. Like, it feels good, right? For me. My first house was in Cleveland, bro. So I drove by this a lot of times, bro. And now it's like, pull up. I'm in this mother in the museum. It's a blessing. That's real blessing. I'm happy. Thank you.

[C]

That's real, man. Now, are we getting Wu Tang performance?

[A]

I don't know. They're still working out all the order, all the bong bongas. I said. I did say this, though. And you good guys could laugh at this. They so said. They said. Who do you. You know, Tyler Childs, my partner, who also deals with the management of Wu Tang right now, is doing a great job. May I say. He say, so you know who you want to induct? You I said, like, I don't know. He said, come on, give me somebody.

[C]

Like, who.

[A]

Who are you a fan of that you want to induct you?

[B]

I'm. Thank you.

[A]

I said. I said, Barack Obama.

[C]

That's a great pull, by the way. Nah, if that happens. Yo, Barry O.

[B]

Before I do it, does Barry. Oh, no.

[A]

Woo.

[B]

You think he knows Wu?

[C]

Nah, he knows some Wu Tang. Come on, Barry.

[A]

I don't know if he know Wu

[C]

or not, but come on.

[B]

But you're trying to think of who's lofty enough for this.

[A]

It's like, yeah, for me as a. Like. Like, I don't have a. Like, I'm, you know, to be a fan of somebody at that level towards a. Yo, that's my man right there. I never met Barack Obama, you know what I mean? And his picture had been in my wall before he won, you know what I mean? And shit like that, you know? So I just was like, yo, well, you want to ask me who I'm a fan of and who I want to come rock for me? Yo, let me get Barack Obama to induct Wu Tang Clan into the rock and roll Hall.

[B]

I love this. I love this. Where else are we going to? I couldn't think of anyone.

[C]

I'm like, who's show's over. Turn the mics off, Perry O. You got a gig.

[B]

We need this.

[C]

We got to make this happen.

[B]

And by the way, he spends a lot of time in LA these days. Got his production company, he's producing TV

[A]

shows, a documentary out of it.

[B]

He's on the new Larry David Show. He has an appearance on Larry David's new show. He does, which Larry David has this new. He has a new show that he's putting out.

[A]

Like curb your enthusiasm type of thing.

[B]

Yeah, except Larry's doing. He's taking historic events, big moments throughout history, and showing you the moments that led up to them. For example, one of them is supposedly the guy saying to Abraham Lincoln, yo, you gotta go see this new play. So that's the. But they got Obama, who's a producer, and it says Obama is in an unspecified role on the show. So he's in la. He's outside.

[A]

Okay. Okay, well, come on, let's.

[B]

We need it.

[C]

Barack Obama will introduce the Wu Tang Clan at the Rock and Roll hall of Fame.

[A]

Put it out there.

[C]

You heard it here first.

[B]

And see Riz's new movie.

[C]

Yeah, go check the joint out, man. It's Riz's One spoon of chocolate in theaters everywhere.

[A]

Quentin Tarantino produced it. Shamik Moore. Paris Jackson. Rockland Dunbar. Blair Underwood. Oh, wow.

[C]

Blair.

[A]

R.J. siler. Michael Herney. James Thompson. John L. Young. That's the kid who played the Jizza. And what's my man name? Oh, Harry Goodwins. This guy's crazy in this movie.

[B]

So it's out this weekend. Enjoy yourself.

[A]

Go see it, Rizzo.

[B]

Thank you, man. Appreciate you, bro.

[A]

I.

[C]

Just don't call it a podcast.