Podcast Summary: The Economics of Everyday Things — Episode 115: Miniature Golf

Host: Zachary Crockett
Guests: Mike Matzinger, Sal Conoboy, Katie Conoboy
Release Date: November 17, 2025
Duration (excluding ads/intros/outros): ~26 minutes

Overview

In this episode, Zachary Crockett delves into the quirky, nostalgic world of miniature golf to uncover its surprisingly robust economics. The episode explores the business mechanics of building and running a mini golf course, the history and design behind these adventurous putting greens, and why mini golf remains a durable, profitable, and sociable pastime. The episode is supported by interviews with industry veterans, including a hands-on course owner and a powerhouse course-design couple.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Allure and Structure of Mini Golf

• Location Spotlight: Starts with Surf's Up Mini Golf in Carolina Beach, NC, owned by Mike Matzinger, featuring a $20,000 animatronic octopus and an immersive surfing theme.
• Course Design: The course offers thematic challenges, such as surf-related weather write-ups at each hole and a challenging final obstacle.
• Industry Landscape: There are around 5,000 mini golf courses in the US, making it a quirky yet significant industry with many moving parts (designers, turf installers, themed prop builders).

2. Economics of Course Operation

• Cost Structure:
  • The upfront cost for a new course often ranges from $300,000 to $2.5 million, with some elaborate features costing upwards.
  • Example: Matzinger’s Surf’s Up course cost about $2 million for land, design, construction, and extras.
  • Ongoing costs are minimal compared to most businesses: putters cost $14 and balls $1 (and last several years), minimal full-time staff, and limited ongoing materials.
• Revenue & Profitability:
  • Typical course annual revenue: $250,000–$500,000 (Katie Conoboy, 22:02).
  • Owners often recover their investment in less than two years (Katie Conoboy, 13:09).
  • Courses can break even on a very small daily revenue ($500/day—Mike Matzinger, 21:16).
• Seasonality:
  • Strongly seasonal (especially in tourist towns)—summer is peak, winters are quiet (Mike Matzinger, 21:45).

3. The Business of Mini Golf Course Design

• Leading Firm: Harris Miniature Golf, run by Sal and Katie Conoboy, has built over 900 courses worldwide—including on Caribbean islands and in Saudi Arabia.
• Design Process:
  • Begins with surveying the land and using AutoCAD to craft every hole.
  • Creativity is essential: classic motifs (windmills, clown faces) and new elements (streams carrying balls, log bridges).
  • “It’s about knowing the right order to put [holes] in…too many difficult holes in a row might cause traffic jams.” — Katie Conoboy, 10:24.
• Customization and Competition:
  • In tourist hotspots, operators compete on theming to draw customers. In smaller towns, simplicity may suffice.
  • Decision-making often centers on anticipated return on investment (Sal Conoboy, 09:03).

4. Running the Course: Real Stories from an Owner

• Entrepreneurial Journey:
  • Mike Matzinger has a diverse background (mattress stores, poker leagues, board games) and was drawn to mini golf by both its fun factor and its low ongoing overhead (18:11).
  • Discovered hidden challenges, e.g., running out of putters on opening weekend due to unexpected group behavior (Mike Matzinger, 20:42).
• Operational Insights:
  • Staffing is minimal, mostly part-time or seasonal.
  • Most expenses are fixed upfront; ongoing maintenance is primary recurring cost (e.g., vacuuming turf, Mike Matzinger, 23:20).
  • Manual processes persist—most customers prefer handwritten scorecards (23:39).
• Community & Social Element:
  • Mini golf remains popular because it’s accessible fun for all ages and brings out friendly (or fierce) competition—“You’ll never expect the grandparents out with their grandkids and how competitive that could get.” — Sal Conoboy, 25:50
  • The COVID-19 pandemic boosted the industry as people sought outdoor entertainment (Katie Conoboy, 24:36).

5. Sustainability and Growth

• Industry Health:
  • Demand higher than ever, with corporate chains entering but independents thriving.
  • Industry revenue exceeds $2B with 18 million annual players.
  • “The demand right now is higher than it’s ever been before.” — Katie Conoboy, 24:31

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the “Wow” Factor in Theming:
  • “It was about 20 grand for that, but it’s a wow factor. I want my kids to be able to say their dad owns an octopus. Who doesn’t want to do that?”
    — Mike Matzinger (01:11)
• On the Profit Model:
  • “Someone comes in and you hand them a putter. And whether they pay a dollar or they pay a hundred dollars, it doesn’t cost you anything. But it has the opportunity to be a very profitable business.”
    — Mike Matzinger (02:57)
• Design Evolution:
  • “It really started as a business venture in the early 1920s with Tom Thumb Golf…miniature golf courses with whimsical themes…”
    — Sal Conoboy (03:49)
• Design Challenge:
  • “We want everyone to feel like they are successful.”
    — Katie Conoboy (10:53)
• On Manual Labor:
  • “If you’re the kind of person that really doesn’t like vacuuming your 2,000 square foot home, do not build a mini golf course. All 18 holes get vacuumed twice a week.”
    — Mike Matzinger (23:20)
• On Customer Experience:
  • “Part of the mini golf experience is jabbing yourself in the leg with that pencil and figuring out how to carry a beer and a scorecard at the same time. More technology doesn’t necessarily make it better.”
    — Mike Matzinger (23:57)
• On Operator Skill:
  • “No, I am definitely not a very good mini golf player. You don’t have to be good at mini golf to open a mini golf course.”
    — Mike Matzinger (25:05)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:11] Mike Matzinger introduces Surf’s Up and its signature octopus.
• [02:57] Mini golf’s profit model—low recurring expenses.
• [03:39] Sal Conoboy on mini golf history.
• [05:09] Harris Miniature Golf’s approach to design and global reach.
• [09:22] Designing for fun and fun-for-all difficulty.
• [11:09] Specialized construction, including $500,000 volcano features.
• [13:09] Return on investment for new mini golf courses (usually within two years).
• [17:28] Matzinger’s background and entrepreneurial philosophy.
• [20:42] Unexpected operational problems, such as running out of putters.
• [21:16] Daily break-even revenue.
• [23:20] Course maintenance realities.
• [23:57] Why the analog mini golf experience persists.
• [24:31] Post-COVID demand surge and the future outlook.
• [25:05] You don’t have to play mini golf well to run a successful course.
• [25:50] Intergenerational competition—grandparent stories.

Final Thoughts

This episode provides a lively, fact-packed journey into the surprisingly complicated world of miniature golf economics. With anecdotes, industry stats, and a peek into the creative art of course design, it demonstrates how a nostalgic leisure activity can become a multi-million-dollar enterprise—all while reminding listeners of the importance of fun, community, and play.