36. ATMs

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Economics of Everyday Things" — Episode 36: ATMs

Host: Zachary Crockett
Date: May 4, 2026
Main Guests: John Weilbaker and family (New York ATM), Professor Bernardo Batis Lazo

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Overview

This episode dives into the surprisingly complex economic world of the Automatic Teller Machine (ATM). Host Zachary Crockett unearths the story behind those ubiquitous cash dispensers found in bars, gas stations, bodegas, and more—with a focus on the independent operators who own and service most of these machines. The episode combines historical context, technical insight, and engaging anecdotes from the family running New York ATM, revealing both the business mechanics and colorful realities behind every ATM withdrawal.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. History and Evolution of the ATM

• Pre-ATM Banking: For much of US history, all banking took place at physical branches with human tellers.
• Suburbanization Drives Change: Post-WWII, Americans moved to suburbs, making the traditional branch model unsustainable.
  • "You see this move to the suburbs and moving away from city centers. So reaching out to these people with the old branch model was expensive." — Prof. Bernardo Batis Lazo [03:01]
• Rise of the Machine: Europe faced labor shortages and regulated banking hours, leading to the creation of machines in the late 1960s.
  • London introduced the first ATM in 1967; the US followed in 1969.
  • Early machines were clunky, relied on tokens, and often malfunctioned.
  • "The first devices were very silly. […] They are really clunky to use, and it takes about 15 years for the devices to be really working on a regular basis." — Prof. Bernardo Batis Lazo [04:47]
• Technological Advancements:
  • Video screens, digital networking, and 24/7 access improved the machines.
  • Standalone, cheaper ATMs (about $2,000) in the 1990s opened the field to small operators.

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2. The Modern ATM Business Model

• Who Owns ATMs:
  • Most are run by independent operators, not banks.
  • Firms range from individuals with a single machine to giants like Cardtronics (100,000+ ATMs).
  • For comparison, Bank of America operates ~16,000.
• New York ATM’s Story:
  • John Weilbaker and Pat Tuz pivoted from advertising to ATMs in the 1990s as bank branches closed.
  • Started with a machine in the local pharmacy; now run 1,500 across New York and nearby states.
  • Locations include bars, restaurants, delis—even their daughter’s high school.
    • "My dad also had the ATM at my high school." — Sasha Weilbaker [08:08]

3. How ATMs Work (Behind the Scenes)

• Transaction Process:

  • Customer insert card → ATM connects to processor → processor pings bank → bank approves and debits → operator is credited → ATM dispenses cash.
  • All in about 30 seconds.
    • "All that backend takes place now in about 30 seconds. And it's just amazing that it can do that." — John Weilbaker [12:10]

• Fee Structure:

  • Typical surcharge: $2–$3 per transaction; banks may add their own fee.
  • Operators split the fee: store gets 20–50%, cash-loader gets a cut, operator keeps the remainder.
    • "So the customer comes in, he puts his card in the machine, he pays $2.50 to the ATM operator, which is me, and then I divide that 250 up, $1.25 to the store, 75 cents to my cash loader, and I keep 50 cents." — John Weilbaker [14:15]
  • Interchange fee (from banks): about $0.20 per transaction.

• Economics of Scale:

  • Profit per machine: $100–$200/month is the target; < $100 means relocating; > $200 is "a keeper."
  • Example: Their busiest site does 6,000–7,000 transactions/month, yielding ~$4,500.
  • "We're looking to make between 100 and $200 per month per machine. That's our goal." — John Weilbaker [15:03]

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4. Costs and Hazards of ATM Ownership

• Startup Costs:

  • New ATMs: $2,300+; used ones can be bought for less.
  • Machines are simple: mainly a computer and a dispenser.
    • "They're fairly inexpensive. It's basically just a couple computer boards and a modem and a cash dispenser." — John Weilbaker [16:23]

• Cash Loading & Logistics:

  • Cassettes can hold up to 80,000 bills; some sites pack $250,000 into a single machine (e.g., Saratoga racetrack).
  • Cash loading is often outsourced for efficiency and security.
    • "For some machines, they use cash from a bank sponsor, which means paying for an armored car and an armed guard to transport it across the city." — Zachary Crockett [17:21]
  • Cash handling requires insurance, especially with fire/theft risks.

• Risks:

  • Theft:
    • ATM theft can involve brute force or explosives; consequences are milder for non-bank ATMs.
      • "If somebody stole one of my ATMs and I called up the cops, they don't really even care anymore." — John Weilbaker [18:59]
  • Critters:
    • ATMs attract rodents seeking warmth, leading to gruesome scenarios.
      • "What happens is insects and mice and rats are attracted to the inside of ATMs because they're dark and warm. […] The belts trap the rat and the thing dies in there. So it's not a pretty picture." — John Weilbaker [19:10]

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5. The Social Side: ATM Culture and Myths

• Rise as a Side Hustle:
  • Social media (YouTube, TikTok) is filled with “ATM millionaires” proclaiming easy riches, but downplaying risks and real effort.
    • "In these videos, you rarely hear about the thieves and the dead rats." — Zachary Crockett [19:45]
• Saturation and Changing Economy:
  • Most lucrative locations are already taken by big players.
  • Decline of cash as payment: 41% of Americans now say they don’t use cash in a typical week (up from 24% a decade ago).
  • Some states still require businesses to accept cash; cash remains essential for certain sectors, e.g., “corner bodega in Brooklyn.”

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6. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "It's not regulated. You don't need a license. You just go out and buy one of these ATMs and you know, find a spot at a barber shop and you're in business." — John Weilbaker [02:12]
• "I'm sorry, but I'm not doing this for free, you know." — John Weilbaker, on customer complaints about fees [12:56]
• "Highest fee that I personally know about is a legal brothel in Nevada, which is $100. A lot of the strip clubs now are 10%. So you take out $800, you're going to pay $80 for your fee." — John Weilbaker [13:18]
• "All the people say, oh, we're going cash. You know, we're going to a cashless economy. You know, ATMs are dead, this and that. Our transaction volume is exactly the same today across all our fleet than it was 10 years ago. It's just the type of stores that are busy today are different." — John Weilbaker [21:39]

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Notable Timestamps

• 00:55–02:24: Introduction to ATMs, how most now are independently run.
• 03:01: Prof. Batis Lazo describes the economic forces leading to ATMs.
• 04:47: First machines described as "really clunky."
• 06:13: Early days of New York ATM (John & Pat Weilbaker).
• 11:34: Technical breakdown of a transaction.
• 12:56: Controversy over ATM fees.
• 13:18: Extreme ATM fees in fringe venues.
• 14:15: Fee-splitting breakdown.
• 15:03: Economics of scaling the business.
• 16:31: Cash-loading logistics and equipment.
• 18:02: Security risks, including theft and infestation.
• 19:45: Reality vs. social media side-hustle hype.
• 20:41: The effect of a cashless society and business saturation.
• 21:39: Resilience and shifting business models for ATMs.
• 22:53: Personal anecdotes about the family's unusual home life (cash everywhere).
  • "I would come home and there'd be $200,000 on cash on the dining room table and I'd be yelling that, you know, we were broke." — John Weilbaker [22:53]
  • "Yeah, I grew up with major class confusion." — Zachary Crockett [23:07]

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Conclusion

The ATM represents a unique intersection of convenience, entrepreneurship, risk, and changing social norms. Crockett’s exploration, featuring inside stories from both academics and on-the-ground operators, highlights how the ATM industry has adapted to shifting consumer habits and remains unexpectedly robust—even as the US moves ever closer to a cashless future.

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For fans of economics, daily life oddities, or entrepreneurial tales, this episode reveals how something as ordinary as an ATM connects to much bigger currents in technology, society, and our relationship with money.

Transcript

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[Zachary Crockett]

Learn [e-mail] SapphireServe cards issued by JP Morgan Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval. Imagine that you're out at a dive bar on a Saturday night. You order a drink and take out your credit card. And the bartender? She tells you they only take cash. And because you're living in the 21st century, you don't have any cash in your wallet. Just as you're about to go grovel to your friends, the bartender points to a dimly lit corner where you see your salvation. It's an atm. ATM stands for automated teller Machine. The name is a reminder that long ago people used to have to get their cash from a human teller at a bank branch. Today there are around half a million ATMs in the US and most of them are those little standalone models that you find at nail salons, corner stores and bars. They're owned and managed not by banks, but by individual operators who earn a living off the surcharges that you have to pay to withdraw money. And anyone can get into the trade.

[John Weilbaker]

It's not regulated. You don't need a license. You just go out and buy one of these ATMs and you know, for find a spot at a barber shop and you're in business.

[Zachary Crockett]

For the Freakonomics Radio Network, this is the economics of everyday things. I'm Zachary Crockett. Today, ATMs America's very first bank opened its doors in 1782, and for the next 180 years or so, pretty much anything you did involving a bank happened inside of a branch. If you wanted to check your balance, make a deposit, or withdraw some cash, you'd mosey on in and talk to someone behind the desk. But by the 1950s, this labor intensive model was no longer a good fit with the way Americans were living.

[Bernardo Batis Lazo]

You see this move to the suburbs and moving away from city centers. So reaching out to these people with the old branch model was expensive.

[Zachary Crockett]

That's Bernardo Batis Lazo. He's a professor at Northumbria University in the UK and he studies the history of financial technology. He says that at the same time that people were moving away from the city centers, the economy was booming, which meant the banks were getting a lot of new customers and they started having trouble serving them all.

[Bernardo Batis Lazo]

Who were they? Broadly speaking? Working class people who are getting into manufacturing. And another big group of people were women. This is a little bit of the context of what is going on within banks and thinking how they're going to reshuffle their business.

[Zachary Crockett]

Banks in other countries were also facing challenges. In Europe, tellers were unionizing. Customers wanted to get their money on weekends when banks were required by law to close. A crazy idea started to percolate in the banking industry. Why not replace the bank teller with a machine? That vision first became a reality in 1967 when a bank in London introduced the first ATM. Two years later, Chemical bank brought the idea to the US with a machine in Rockville Center, Long Island. Those early machines were a far cry from the ATMs you see banks today. They were activated with tokens rather than cards. They jammed easily, they sometimes dispensed the wrong amount of money, and they were just weird looking.

[Bernardo Batis Lazo]

The first devices were very silly. Almost you can think of a science fiction movie of the 1950s where you have literally lights and switches. They are really clunky to use, and it takes about 15 years for the devices to be really working on a regular basis.

[Zachary Crockett]

Over the next two decades, technological improvements transformed the ATM from a rare gimmick into a ubiquitous utility. The machines got video display screens, better cash dispensing mechanisms, and a lot more functionality, like the ability to check your balance or move money from one account to another. At first, ATMs had to be connected to a dedicated phone line, which meant that they could only be built at bank branches or other places with the right infrastructure. But in the late 80s, ATMs shifted to digital telephony and Windows operating systems, which enabled much more powerful networking. You could access your money through any atm, not just the ones associated with your bank. At the same time, all of this was happening. Cheaper portable ATMs became available for the first time. A machine that typically cost a bank upwards of $15,000 could now be had in smaller and simpler form for around 2000 bucks. This opened up a whole new market for independent ATM operators.

[John Weilbaker]

Yeah, we were Pat, we did some crazy back then, you know, Pat was bringing home $100,000 on the subway. I put the brick of cash in

[Zachary Crockett]

a backpack and I would go load

[John Weilbaker]

these machines like somewhere in midtown.

[Sasha Weilbaker]

Yeah, I think growing up I really

[Zachary Crockett]

thought it was normal. That's John Weilbaker, his wife Pat Tuz and their daughter Sasha. Together they run a family firm called New York ATM. It's one of hundreds of companies in the US that own a fleet of ATMs. The kind you see in the corner at the bar. These independent operators run the gamut from 18 year old kids who just own one machine up to Cardtronics, a publicly traded company that owns and operates more than 100,000 ATMs. By contrast, bank of America only has around 16,000. Once only an offering at major banks, ATMs have been democratized. Weillbaker and Tuz were among the earliest entrants into this business back in the late 90s. At the time they were both working in advertising in Manhattan. One of Weilbaker's clients was Chase Bank.

[John Weilbaker]

When I saw that a Chase was closing across the street from our house, I figured out how to put an ATM in the drugstore next door. I asked Ivan the pharmacist, you know Ivan, you want to put an ATM in here? And he said, I'd like you to do it. We put an ATM in his drugstore and it took off like crazy.

[Zachary Crockett]

The larger ATM companies like Cardtronics had a near monopoly on putting machines at major retailers like cvs. So Weilbaker went after small businesses with high foot traffic in areas where banks didn't have local branches, restaurants, delis, 24, seven gas stations. No location was off limits.

[Sasha Weilbaker]

My dad also had the ATM at my high school.

[Zachary Crockett]

Yes, another embarrassing location for me. Today, New York ATM oversees 1500 cash machines in New York and surrounding states.

[John Weilbaker]

We'll do what we call a full service placement. We'll put an ATM in a grocery store, we buy the atm, we load the cash, and then we pay rent or a per transaction fee to the owner of that grocery store. Now, if the owner of the grocery store wants to load his own cash, we will also sell him an ATM and, and handle just tech service, support and processing.

[Zachary Crockett]

When you think about the surcharges you have to pay to use that ATM, owning 1500 ATMs might sound like a pretty good gig, and it is. But it's also a job that involves Staving off thieves, fishing rodents out of machines and finding customers in an increasingly cashless economy. That's coming up

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[Sasha Weilbaker]

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[Zachary Crockett]

When you put your card in that ATM at the bar and request a $20 withdrawal. There's a computer inside the machine connected to the Internet. This computer routes your request to a processor. That processor then sends it to an ATM network that is associated with your bank. When your bank receives the request, it debits your account and sends the transaction data back across the network. The ATM operator's account gets credited and the machine spits out your money. After more than 20 years in the ATM business, John Weilbaker still marvels at the process.

[John Weilbaker]

All that backend takes place now in about 30 seconds. And it's just amazing that it can do that. Millions of transactions every day and you can't make any mistakes.

[Zachary Crockett]

But this transaction, it doesn't come for free. Independent ATMs charge you a fee for the privilege of using the machine, usually around two to three dollars. Many banks also charge you a two to three dollar fee on their end for using an ATM outside of their network. So getting that $20 bill out of the ATM might cost you five or six dollars. Most of Weilbaker's ATMs charge around $2.50. He finds that anything higher than that tends to piss people off.

[John Weilbaker]

It's whatever the market will bear. Basically people just are not tolerant. You know, they get crazy, start screaming, I don't want to pay to take out my own money. Why am I paying to take out my own money? I'm sorry, but I'm not doing this for free, you know.

[Zachary Crockett]

In some venues, operators can get away with charging much higher fees.

[John Weilbaker]

Highest fee that I personally know about is a legal brothel in Nevada, which is $100. A lot of the strip clubs now are 10%. So you take out $800, you're going to pay $80 for your fee.

[Zachary Crockett]

Depending on how you look at it, ATM fees are either exploitative or part of a necessary lifeline. Independent ATMs tend to be located in underbanked neighborhoods and the people who use them are disproportionately lower income and unemployed. But Weilbaker says he's not the one collecting the lion's share of the money. Many ATM operators have to pay commission to the bar or convenience store. That can be anywhere from 20 to 50% of the surcharge. Weillbaker also gives a cut to a third party service that provides the cash and reloads the machines each week.

[John Weilbaker]

So the customer comes in, he puts his card in the machine, he pays $2.50 to the ATM operator, which is me, and then I divide that 250 up, $1.25 to the store, 75 cents to my cash loader, and I keep 50 cents.

[Zachary Crockett]

That 50 cents comes from the customer. Weilbaker also gets around 20 cents from the bank that the money gets withdrawn from that's called an interchange fee. As you can imagine from those numbers, earning any real money in the ATM business is a game of volume. 70 cents or so on a single transaction isn't too exciting. But across 1500 machines, with hundreds of thousands of transactions a month, it adds up.

[John Weilbaker]

We're looking to make between 100 and $200 per month per machine. That's our goal. Less than $100. You want to kind of move it if you can. Over $200. You know it's a keeper. Our single busiest location is in City island, the Bronx. It's a cash only restaurant. It's a large restaurant, but there's no bank. There's no other ATM within a quarter mile probably of that location. So we have four machines at that one restaurant.

[Zachary Crockett]

How many transactions happen at that restaurant every month?

[John Weilbaker]

It's about six or seven thousand a

[Zachary Crockett]

month, give or take. That's around $4,500 a month for one restaurant. Of course, ATM operators have other costs that they have to cover. For starters, the machines themselves. Most standalone ATMs are made by two Korean companies, Hyosung and Genmega, and the cheapest models go for around $2,300 new. You can also go on Craigslist, ebay or an ATM Facebook group, and find a used machine for sale for a fraction of the price.

[John Weilbaker]

They're fairly inexpensive. It's basically just a couple computer boards and a modem and a cash dispenser.

[Zachary Crockett]

You also have to have access to a lot of cash, bricks and bricks of the stuff.

[John Weilbaker]

You could put a lot of money in a small machine. There's different size cassettes that you can buy depending on how much capacity you want. The smallest one holds 16,000 20s. There's a two cassette machine that holds 80,000 at Saratoga Racetrack. We have 20 of those machines and the cassettes are set for hundreds and twenties. So each machine has about a quarter million dollars in it.

[Zachary Crockett]

Some smaller operators choose to use their own cash and load their own machines. New York ATM now outsources this job to a third party for 75 cents per transaction. For some machines, they use cash from a bank sponsor, which means paying for an armored car and an armed guard to transport it across the city. That service runs Weilbaker around $1.35 per transaction, and it comes with an additional cost.

[John Weilbaker]

I'm required to have insurance on those locations. And in the last three years we filed three claims, and all three of those were from fires where the store burned down and the ATM burned down. With the Store.

[Zachary Crockett]

Theft is another big risk. Sometimes robbers will roll up to a store, throw the entire machine into a truck and drive away. Other times, they'll use explosives or hand tools to crack it open on site. Many of these attempts are ill fated, but when they work out, the haul can be sizable.

[John Weilbaker]

The gangs that are stealing them, they know what they're doing. It's very easy to crack open. There's amazing tools out there now you could buy at Home Depot that you can open anything. They're stealing 50, 60, 70 machines, you know, over the course of a couple months.

[Zachary Crockett]

Robbing an ATM at a bank is a felony. You could face up to a $250,000 fine and a 20 year federal prison sentence. But robbing a privately owned ATM with non bank money isn't treated nearly as seriously. In some municipalities, it's just a property crime.

[John Weilbaker]

If somebody stole one of my ATMs and I called up the cops, they don't really even care anymore.

[Zachary Crockett]

And unfortunately, robbers aren't the only creatures breaking into ATMs.

[John Weilbaker]

Well, the mice, yeah, the rodent issue is not much fun. What happens is insects and mice and rats are attracted to the inside of ATMs because they're dark and warm. And then somebody comes up and wants to use the atm and the belts trap the rat and the thing dies in there. So it's not a pretty picture. I don't, I don't do that. She sends me on those cases.

[Zachary Crockett]

In recent years, ATMs have become a popular side hustle for younger folks. On YouTube and TikTok, there are countless ATM evangelists who promise to make you rich. In these videos, you rarely hear about the thieves and the dead rats. It's just a lot of people holding up fat stacks of cash and trying to get you to buy their courses. Weilbaker enjoys the enthusiasm for a business that hasn't always felt particularly sexy. But he also says it's hard to break into today.

[John Weilbaker]

It was a lot easier when we started, you know, when that first ATM at Ivan Pharmacy, when that bank closed next door, that went to a thousand transactions in one month. You know, today these kids are finding locations that do 100, 150, maybe 50. You know, it's terrible. You don't just find a thousand transaction spot anymore.

[Zachary Crockett]

Most of the good locations are already taken either by a regional operator like New York ATM or a national giant like Cardtronics. And there's a bigger threat that looms over the business. The shift to a cashless economy. According to a recent Pew survey, 41% of Americans now say they don't use cash in a typical week. That's up from 24% less than a decade ago. Many banks are closing physical branches and reducing their fleets of on site ATMs. Independent ATM operators have even experimented with reverse ATMs. You put your cash into the machine and it gives you a preloaded card. These haven't quite caught on yet, but Weilbaker thinks The threats that ATMs face are a little overblown. Some states still have laws preventing businesses from going cashless. He says the nature of the trade has just shifted.

[John Weilbaker]

In the 20 something years that we've been in the business, all the people say, oh, we're going cash. You know, we're going to a cashless economy. You know, ATMs are dead, this and that. Our transaction volume is exactly the same today across all our fleet than it was 10 years ago. It's just the type of stores that are busy today are different or it's a different mix of stores than it was 10 or 15 years ago. A Nice Hotel does 100 transactions a month. Now that used to do 1,000, but the Corner Bodega in Brooklyn did a thousand 10 years ago and it does a thousand today.

[Zachary Crockett]

For the economics of everyday things, I'm Zachary Crockett. This episode was produced by Sarah Lilly and mixed by Jeremy Johnston. We had help from Daniel Moritz Rabison.

[John Weilbaker]

Sasha will tell you, you know, when she was growing up, she was so confused because I would come home and there'd be $200,000 on cash on the dining room table and I'd be yelling that, you know, we were broke.

[Zachary Crockett]

Yeah, I grew up with major class confusion.

[Sasha Weilbaker]

The Freakonomics Radio network, the Hidden side Everything.

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[Zachary Crockett]

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