54. Ghostwriters

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Economics of Everyday Things

Episode 54: Ghostwriters
Host: Zachary Crockett
Date: July 6, 2026

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Overview

This episode explores the secretive and fascinating world of ghostwriting, a practice where writers create material—often books—for celebrities and public figures, who then publish the work under their own names. Host Zachary Crockett speaks with veteran ghostwriters, industry insiders, and matchmakers to illuminate the business, craft, and economics of an occupation that thrives behind the scenes of fame.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Is a Ghostwriter?

• Definition and History:
  Ghostwriting—writing material published under another person's name—dates back thousands of years but was popularized in the 1920s by sports agent Christy Walsh and took off in the 1980s after the bestseller “Iacocca,” co-written by William Novak.
  [03:07] Dan Paisner: "The book was a real juggernaut...he became sort of the go to ghostwriter for every big name...from the mid-80s to the mid-90s."

2. Dan Paisner’s Entry into Ghostwriting

• Paisner, now a prolific ghostwriter (70+ books, 17 bestsellers), started this as a side gig but found it became a career after a handful of projects.
  [03:42] Dan Paisner: "This was a gig that was gonna run like six months...sort of a refresher or a palate cleanser...four or five books into this gig that I thought, okay, this is a career that I've stepped into."

3. The Relationship Between Ghostwriter & Subject

• The rapport is intensely personal, often involving substantial time together, sometimes living with the subject or observing their lives closely.
  [04:56] Dan Paisner outlines the info-gathering process: "I'll spend some time with somebody, a period of days...I need to walk around in their shoes a little bit...it's like therapy, really."
• Anecdotes range from touring with Steve Aoki on his bus to joining John Kasich in Bible study.
  [05:40] Dan Paisner: "So I rode on his tour bus...at four in the morning and running a tape while the rest of his crew slept..."

4. Challenges and Types of Projects

• Ghostwriters often handle intense, rapidly-scheduled projects, sometimes with only weeks to gather information and deliver drafts.
• Valerie Frankel describes the challenge:
  [07:12] Valerie Frankel: "It's like you parachute drop into somebody's life...it's a very intense period of time..."
• Fast turnaround for hot-topic books, e.g., Snooki’s first novel written in just seven weeks.
  [08:38] Valerie Frankel: "It was a very tight deadline...then like a month later it was on the bestseller list."

5. The Role of Ghostwriters in the Editing Process

• They have to decide what makes it into the book, including weighing the consequences of controversial content.
• High-profile example: Kristi Noem’s memoir, where a controversial story caused public backlash. [09:30] Valerie Frankel: "...the collaborator functions not just as the writer, but also the reader, the person who exists in the real world and will have real world reactions to their content."

6. Industry Structure and Economics

• Ghostwriting Matchmaking:
  Madeline Morell created a business to match celebrities (“authors”) with specialist ghostwriters.
  [11:57] Madeline Morrell: “The only thing I do is matchmake ghostwriters with...authors. The author is the person who doesn't write the book and the writer is the writer.”
• Market Demand: There’s been an “explosion” in need for ghostwriters, especially in memoirs and autobiographies.
  [13:36] Madeline Morrell: "...I reckon...60 to 70% of all books on the New York Times nonfiction bestseller list have been ghostwritten."
• Pay Structure:
  • Starting fees: ~$100,000
    [14:26] Madeline Morrell: "The average starting price is probably $100,000...for major celebrities or business people...can go up to, you know, 3, 4, 500, but that's fairly rare."
  • Major books pay more: JR Moehringer reportedly got a $1 million advance for Prince Harry’s “Spare.”
    [15:00] Zachary Crockett: "Pulitzer prize winning journalist JR Moehringer was reportedly paid a $1 million advance to ghostwrite Prince Harry's...Spare."
  • Payment models vary: work-for-hire (flat fee, no royalties) or percentage (often about 35%) of all author income from the book. [15:19] Valerie Frankel: "If the author signs a contract for, say, $10, and I get 35% of everything..."
  • Payment delays are notorious; ghostwriters are often last in line for royalty checks, sometimes waiting years for full payment. [16:29] Valerie Frankel: "...it seems completely unfair that a ghostwriter would have to wait a year after publication..." [17:02] Madeline Morrell: "...we all spend our life cursing and yelling, where's my contract? Where's my money?"

7. Changing Attitudes & Credit for Ghostwriters

• Stigma has faded; ghostwriting is now more openly discussed. [18:41] Madeline Morrell: "...20 years ago...you would never tell anybody. Now everybody's perfectly open about it, and I think it's the same with ghost writing..."
• Ghostwriters still rarely get cover credit—most often a prominent acknowledgment page mention or “with [coauthor]” on the title page. [19:12] Madeline Morrell: "The acknowledgement can read anything from, you know, who wrote this book for me? To somebody who...interpreted my thoughts and some bull like that."
• Some subjects prefer to be fully credited alone, for credibility or image reasons.
  [20:01] Dan Paisner: "The only times it does bother me is when...they talk about how they did this on their own...smoking a pipe with leather patches on their elbows."
• Notable exception: Whoopi Goldberg insisted on acknowledging Paisner and even devoted a chapter to the topic.
  [21:08] Dan Paisner: "...with Whoopi Goldberg on her book, it was very important to the publisher that she stand alone...Whoopi herself bristled at that...we ended up writing together a whole chapter...on what it meant to take help..."

8. For Whom Do Ghostwriters Write?

• Paisner frames success as satisfying the client above all else:
  [21:46] Dan Paisner: "If Serena Williams is happy, if Denzel Washington is happy, then I'm happy."

9. Confidentiality

• Stories stay secret; confidentiality is built into contracts. [22:21] Madeline Morrell: “The ghosts have to sign confidentiality clauses. Very important part of the book contract.”

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Memorable Quotes

• Dan Paisner on the intimacy of ghostwriting:
  [01:46] "You push people to reflect and reconsider the stuff of their lives...it's a very sort of naked and personal and intimate transaction..."
• Valerie Frankel on ghostwriter’s dual role:
  [09:30] "The collaborator functions not just as the writer, but also the reader, the person who exists in the real world..."
• Madeline Morrell on industry growth:
  [13:36] "I reckon very frequently 60 to 70% of all books on the New York Times nonfiction bestseller list have been ghostwritten."
• Dan Paisner on client satisfaction:
  [21:46] "If Serena Williams is happy, if Denzel Washington is happy, then I'm happy. And I feel like I've done my job."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:57] – Introduction and Dan Paisner’s unusual career
• [03:07] – How celebrity ghostwriting exploded in the 1980s
• [05:04] – Gathering info: the ghostwriting process
• [07:12] – Valerie Frankel on the intensity and speed of ghostwriting projects
• [09:03] – The ghostwriter’s responsibility as filter/editor
• [11:57] – Madeline Morrell and the rise of ghostwriting matchmaking
• [13:36] – The scope and economics of ghostwriting
• [15:00] – How ghostwriting deals and payments work
• [18:41] – The changing stigma around ghostwriters
• [19:12] – Credit and acknowledgment dynamics
• [21:08] – Whoopi Goldberg breaks the mold in crediting Dan Paisner
• [22:21] – On confidentiality and untold stories

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Tone & Language

• The conversation is candid, sprinkled with humor and frank admissions about the business, with ghostwriters revealing both the glamour and the grind involved in writing for others.

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This episode provides a rare, accessible look into the ghostwriting world, balancing insider detail with broad strokes about secret labor behind celebrity books. For anyone curious about the economics of fame—or the craft of writing itself—it’s a revealing listen.

Transcript

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[Zachary Crockett]

Dan Pasner has lived many lives. He's been an international tennis star, an Academy Award winning actor. One time he was even the governor of Ohio. But you've probably never heard of him.

[Dan Paisner]

I don't think anybody's combing through the bookshelves in Barnes and Noble and saying, oh, this is a Daniel Paisner book. I should buy it. They're buying it because of the celebrity name that's on the spine.

[Zachary Crockett]

Paisner is a Ghostwriter. He's written 70 books, including 17 New York Times bestsellers. His clients have included Serena Williams, Denzel Washington, Whoopi Goldberg, and Ivanka Trump. His job is to get inside the heads of people who tend to be very careful about what they reveal.

[Dan Paisner]

You know, you push people to reflect and reconsider the stuff of their lives for public consumption. It's a very sort of naked and personal and intimate transaction that happens between a ghostwriter and and his subjects.

[Zachary Crockett]

That intimate relationship may not earn Pacener credit on the spine of a book, but it pays his bills.

[Madeline Morrell]

A few years ago, I would say to somebody, oh, 100,000 for my writer. And I'd be sort of crossing my fingers and thinking, oh my God, I'm never going to get away with this. But now it's like, oh, 100,000.

[Zachary Crockett]

Of course, for the Freakonomics radio network. This is the economics of everyday things. I'm Zachary Crockett. Ghostwriters. The practice of writing material for publication under someone else's name goes back thousands of years. But the word ghostwriter took hold in the 1920s. It was used by sports agent Christy Walsh. He started a syndicate to produce sports articles under the names of professional athletes. But Dan Paisner says the modern ghostwriting Business really kicked off in 1984. That's when William Novak collaborated with Chrysler CEO Lee Iacocca on Iacocca, an autobiography.

[Dan Paisner]

The book was a real juggernaut. I think it was the number one bestselling book in the country for two consecutive years. So he kind of hit that out of the park. And on the back of that success, he became sort of the go to ghostwriter for every big name, 15 minutes of fame headline book that emerged from the mid-80s to the mid-90s.

[Zachary Crockett]

Pacener was working as a freelance entertainment reporter when he was offered a chance to follow in Novak's footsteps. He ended up ghostwriting a book for the TV presenter Willard Scott.

[Dan Paisner]

So this was a gig that was gonna run like six months. It was gonna pay me sort of a year's salary, and I figured, great, this is a nice sort of refresher or a palate cleanser. There was still, I think, a little bit of a taint or a stigma to the idea of ghostwriting. It was, you know, some people might have disregarded it as hac. So I don't know that a lot of people were coming out of journalism school throwing their hats in this particular ring, saying, hey, this is something I want to do with my life. It was more of a fallback position. And for myself, it wasn't until I was four or five books into this gig that I thought, okay, this is a career that I've stepped into.

[Zachary Crockett]

Over the past 30 years, he's worked with a list actors, musicians, politicians and business leaders. For many celebrities, getting a book deal is easy, but writing the book is a different story. And that's where Pacener comes in.

[Dan Paisner]

You know, we are a DIY culture, but if you can't diy, then you hire some schmuck like me to help you. And that's kind of how it works. If you can write, if you can string two words together, and if you could help somebody, be a more effective communicator, then why not put those skills to work on their behalf?

[Zachary Crockett]

Regardless of who the subject is, the general process of collecting information to ghostwrite a book is usually the same.

[Dan Paisner]

What happens in the early going for me is I'll spend some time with somebody, a period of days. Sometimes I stay at their houses. I have dinners with their families. I'm with them in their workplace. I need to sort of understand them. I need to walk around in their shoes a little bit. When I'm firing on all cylinders. What I can do is help somebody see themselves better. It's like therapy, really.

[Zachary Crockett]

Pacener is often working with people who don't have a lot of time to spare. When he was writing a memoir for the DJ and producer Steve Aoki, he joined the musician on the road in a tour bus.

[Dan Paisner]

This guy does hundreds of shows a year, and he just couldn't possibly sit still to do a book. So I rode on his tour bus with his crew and his roadies for a week or so through middle America. And the only times we really could find to work is when we're barreling between Cincinnati and Milwaukee and Chicago at four in the morning and running a tape while the rest of his crew slept in these bunks in the back of the bus. But what I got to see during this experience was how he lived, what it's like to not go on until midnight and to then have to work your way through an after party and wind down at 3 or 4 in the morning. And it sort of just put me in the right frame of mind to be able to write on his behalf.

[Zachary Crockett]

For his book With Ohio Governor John Kasich, he attended Bible study meetings.

[Dan Paisner]

He would travel back from Washington when he was a congressman and go to Columbus, Ohio, every other Monday and sit with his Bible study guys, and they would discuss Scripture. So of course I would go every other Monday to Columbus, Ohio. Not quite as fun as, you know, blazing with a rock star, but it'll do.

[Zachary Crockett]

I'm guessing no doobies.

[Dan Paisner]

With John Kasich, there were no doobies, but we did have a couple of nice bottles of wine along the way.

[Zachary Crockett]

Ghostwriters have to glean as much information as they can from a source in as little time as possible. Sometimes they'll only have a few weeks with a subject.

[Valerie Frankel]

It's like you parachute drop into somebody's life, and you have to be as authentically yourself as possible, or they don't trust you. It's a very intense period of time, like maybe six months, that you are in their orbit and working closely with them, and then the project ends and you move on to the next world that you are inhabiting.

[Zachary Crockett]

Valerie Frankel has worked as a ghostwriter for 17 years. Her first collaboration was with the comedian Joan Rivers.

[Valerie Frankel]

Entering Joan's world was just pretty crazy. I mean, you walk into her house and it's this incredible mansion. One of our first meetings, I was led into a room and told to wait. And then she walked in, like, in a shmada, like a house dress that was unzipped in the back. And she turned around and said, can you zip me up? And I'm like, oh my God, this is like our first interaction. It was very intimate and I'm sure she did that intentionally, looking back, but I was completely charmed by it.

[Zachary Crockett]

Frankel wrote Omarosa Manigault Newman's memoir, An Insider's account of the Trump White House. She also wrote two fiction and two nonfiction books with Nicole Snooki Polizzi from the MTV show Jersey Shore. Snooki's first novel in particular, required an extremely fast turnaround.

[Valerie Frankel]

I wrote it in, I think, seven weeks. It was a very tight deadline because sometimes that happens with people who are extremely hot in the moment that the publisher wants to get their book out, they crash the book out, which means it's written very quickly and then published very quickly. And then like a month later it was on the bestseller list.

[Zachary Crockett]

In the process of spending time with subjects, ghostwriters are exposed to a lot of sensitive information. A part of the job is to have a discerning eye for what to include in the book. Earlier this year, a ghostwriter hired by South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem learned this the hard way. Her recent book, no Going Back, included a story about her shooting and killing her 14 month old dog, and it caused an uproar.

[Valerie Frankel]

Everyone was saying the ghostwriter should have said you really shouldn't include that story. And of course, the ghostwriter community agreed that you do have an obligation to the author to be the civilian. Right? Like a lot of the people who need collaborators are VIPs or celebrities or politicians, and they don't live in the real world. So the collaborator functions not just as the writer, but also the reader, the person who exists in the real world and will have real world reactions to their content.

[Zachary Crockett]

Ghostwriting is a challenging job, and it's a service that celebrities are willing to pay handsomely for. That's coming up.

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[Zachary Crockett]

Ghostwriting is by nature an opaque world. So when a famous person decides to publish a book, they generally need a little help getting set up with the best writer. And oftentimes the first call their literary agent makes is to this woman.

[Madeline Morrell]

My name is Madeline Morell. I have a company that specializes in ghostwriters. And the only thing I do is matchmake ghostwriters with quote unquote authors. The author is the person who doesn't write the book and the writer is the writer.

[Zachary Crockett]

Morel basically invented the job of ghostwriting matchmaker.

[Madeline Morrell]

I've been doing this for almost 25 years. I recognized that book publishing was becoming more and more like Hollywood. And everything was predicated on big name people or what we call in the industry platformed authors, that is somebody who can bring a pre existing audience to their book. And nobody was specializing in providing writers for these authors.

[Zachary Crockett]

Morel has worked with Dan Pacener on a handful of projects. She now has around 100 freelance ghostwriters in rotation.

[Madeline Morrell]

So all of my writers specialize in their particular field, be it politics, business, memoir, you know, health, whatever. And I only work with writers who've been multiply published by the five big houses. And so when somebody comes to me looking for a writer, I go through my list of writers and figure out who's available, who would be most sympathetic to the book in hand. And I come up with four to six different choices of writers.

[Zachary Crockett]

There's a lot of demand, especially in the past few years when memoirs and autobiographies have boomed.

[Madeline Morrell]

It's an incredible explosion I think nowadays, and this is unscientific, but I reckon Very frequently 60 to 70% of all books on the New York Times nonfiction bestseller list have been ghostwritten. I think that what happened with the advent of social media, with the advent of this endless churning of celebrities, suddenly it became obvious that there was a big news for writers to work with these people. There's a huge amount of work out there, which is wonderful for all these freelance writers, but there are also so many freelance writers out there that it's become incredibly competitive.

[Zachary Crockett]

The ones who get regular work can make a good living.

[Madeline Morrell]

The average starting price is probably $100,000. So there are books that pay 50 to 70,000. I would say the health fitness books pay less on average. And then there are really big books for major celebrities or business people, and those can pay $250,000 or more. I mean, it can go up to, you know, 3, 4, 500, but that's fairly rare.

[Zachary Crockett]

Really big titles can fetch even more. Pulitzer prize winning journalist JR Moehringer was reportedly paid a $1 million advance to ghostwrite Prince Harry's 2023 bestseller, Spare. There's a lot of variance in how ghostwriting deals are structured. Here's Valerie Frankel.

[Valerie Frankel]

There's the work for hire, which is where you get a fixed rate that you mutually agree on, where you just get paid a fee and that's it. There's no bonus on the back end. There's no percentage of the advance. I have other relationships where I get a percentage of everything. So if the author signs a contract for, say, $10, and I get 35% of everything, for every $10 that person makes, I will get $3.50 from the initial advance to any royalties to foreign to drama rights, anything for all time. I would get a third.

[Zachary Crockett]

In other cases, ghostwriters might get incentive bonuses if the book ends up on the New York Times bestseller list. But getting paid in a timely manner can be challenging. Ghostwriters are typically paid out of the author's royalties, which means they're last in line when the checks are cut. As a result, some ghostwriters now ask for 50% of their fee up front.

[Valerie Frankel]

The way a publisher will structure it, it's for payments on signing, on delivery, and acceptance on publication, and then a year after publication when the paperback would come out. So it seems completely unfair that a ghostwriter would have to wait a year after publication, which could be a year and a half to two years after the manuscript has been accepted when your work is completed.

[Madeline Morrell]

It's really a terrible, terrible situation that's been set up by the publishers.

[Zachary Crockett]

Again, that's Madeline Morrell.

[Madeline Morrell]

So from the time a literary agent has a verbal deal on a book to the time they get what we call the on signing payment, you're probably looking at an average of 3 months. The writer gets paid when the author gets paid, and if it's a book that's on a rush schedule, which a lot of these books are, because so many of these books have to tie in with some kind of media thing. You know, the writer maybe has to write the book within six to nine months. Well, for three months, they have the choice of either writing without having been paid, they double up and do another book, or they come to Bank Morrell, which sort of pisses me off when I'm fronting the monies for my ghostwriters, when the authors have plenty of money, and if a writer decides, screw it, I'm not going to start writing the book until I have the money, they have a very compressed delivery date, then they run the risk of delivering a book that's of lesser quality, which means the editor won't want to work with them again and the agent won't want to work with them again. I mean, we all spend our life cursing and yelling, where's my contract? Where's my money?

[Zachary Crockett]

In order to make any money to begin with, ghostwriters have to develop a name for themselves, and traditionally, that's been a challenge outside of the publishing world. Ghostwriting used to have a sense of secrecy. Celebrities didn't want readers to know they hadn't written books with their names on them, and many writers thought cranking out pseudo autobiographies was declassee. All of that has changed.

[Madeline Morrell]

The analogy I always draw is that, what, 20 years ago or so, if you were doing online dating, you would never tell anybody. Now everybody's perfectly open about it, and I think it's the same with ghost writing. Twenty years ago, it was a dark secret, and now it's being talked about.

[Zachary Crockett]

That can be good news for ghostwriters who need to get credit for the work they do under someone else's name.

[Madeline Morrell]

In most cases, the ghostwriter will get what we call a generous acknowledgment, you know, which is on the acknowledgement page. The acknowledgement can read anything from, you know, who wrote this book for me? To somebody who, you know, interpreted my thoughts and some bull like that. Increasingly, title page credit is given, and that's on the inside page where it says by XYZ with so and so in smaller type. And then, you know, there's cover credit. Personally, I don't think it's that important. I sort of say, you know, if it makes your mother happy, that's great.

[Zachary Crockett]

Dan Pacener doesn't mind when celebrity authors downplay the role of the ghostwriter, at least in most cases.

[Dan Paisner]

The only times it does Bother me is when you'll see somebody on the couch at the Tonight show saying, I had this idea for the title or I remember when I wrote this part of the book. When they take it to the extreme and talk about how they did this on their own, smoking a pipe with leather patches on their elbows. Credits aren't currency of the realm for us ghostwriters. I need to be able to share with other prospective clients who I've worked with in the past fast. Most people are happy to share credit and to acknowledge that they had a helping hand here. The few exceptions to that rule have mostly to do in my career with people who are known as creative individuals. Standup comedians, for example, whose audiences have been conditioned to reasonably expect that this person is providing their own material. So publishers in those cases have asked me to step off of the COVID and I'm happy to do so.

[Zachary Crockett]

Pacener might be happy to leave his name off the COVID but one of his well known collaborators wasn't.

[Dan Paisner]

When I worked with Whoopi Goldberg on her book, it was very important to the publisher that she stand alone on the COVID And Whoopi herself kind of bristled at that. We ended up writing together a whole chapter in her book on affirmative action and what it meant to take help and why is it that we can't freely admit when we need assistance of some kind or another. Basically, this chapter long acknowledgement of my work on the book, which I helped to write.

[Zachary Crockett]

And in the end Pacener is there to help his clients.

[Dan Paisner]

I think of these books as assignments looking to win over a readership of one. If Serena Williams is happy, if Denzel Washington is happy, then I'm happy. And I feel like I've done my job.

[Zachary Crockett]

For the economics of everyday things, I'm Zachary Crockett. This episode was produced by Julie Kanfer and Sarah Lilly and mixed by Jeremy Johnston. We had help from Daniel Moritz Rapson.

[Madeline Morrell]

Oh, you must have some great stories to tell. Oh, tell this. Well, I actually don't, you know, because the ghosts have to sign confidentiality clauses. Very important part of the book contract.

[Zachary Crockett]

The Freakonomics radio network.

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[Valerie Frankel]

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