7. Animal Urine

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Economics of Everyday Things – Episode 7: Animal Urine

Podcast: The Economics of Everyday Things
Host: Zachary Crockett (Freakonomics Network)
Episode Title: Animal Urine
Release Date: January 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the surprising industry built around animal urine—a substance most consider waste, but which savvy entrepreneurs and homeowners view as both a potent commercial product and an all-natural pest control solution. Journalist Zachary Crockett investigates how animal urine goes from zoos and game farms to bottles on store shelves, who buys it, and why its demand is soaring for uses ranging from garden protection to airport rabbit control.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Aroma of Opportunity: Meet the "PE Man" (01:02–02:08)

• Ken Johnson (aka "the PE Man") is an entrepreneur behind the company PredatorPee.com, specializing in predator animal urines.
• Johnson describes himself as a connoisseur, likening the aromatic notes of different urines to wine tasting.
  • "Mountain lion is my favorite. It has a very unique burnt umber smell. The wolf has the darkest color. The smell is rich and it has, I would say, notes of earth."
    — Ken Johnson (01:10)
  • "In a crude way, to me, it's the smell of money."
    — Ken Johnson (01:46)

2. Origins: From Hunter's Trick to Market Opportunity (03:17–04:35)

• Johnson's original client, Wayne Bossowitz, bottled animal urine as hunting scent in the 1980s.
• Animal pee serves as both an attractant (for hunters) and a camouflage, helping hunters mask their human scent.
  • "Foxes are naturally occurring animals in the same territory as a deer, but they're not a predator of a deer. So deer, when they smell a fox, there's no concern."
    — Ken Johnson (04:09)

3. A Whole New Market: Suburban Gardeners & Rising Deer Populations (05:05–06:20)

• Johnson realizes a huge market exists beyond hunting: home gardeners fighting rabbits and deer.
  • "That’s a light bulb moment. I realized that urine is a communications player in the wild."
    — Ken Johnson (05:05)
• Surging deer populations (from 300,000 in 1900 to 32 million in 2020) have made deer a nuisance in suburban America, causing $250 million annual damage in landscaping across just 13 states.

4. Predator Urine as Pest Deterrent: Products and Sourcing (06:20–09:11)

• Coyote urine is marketed for deterring deer; wolf urine, for driving away coyotes; and other animal urines (fox, skunk, bobcat, mountain lion, bear) each target specific pests.
  • "The wolf is the alpha. Deep down, a coyote knows the smell of wolf urine is a problem."
    — Ken Johnson (08:09)
• Sourcing: Urine is collected from zoos, game farms, and refuges using floor drains and shipped in 55-gallon drums.
  • "They collect the urine with a floor drain and they ship it to us. And that’s about it. It’s not very complicated."
    — Ken Johnson (08:59)
• The industry is sizable: about $200,000 monthly sales on Amazon alone for coyote and wolf urine.

5. Who Buys Animal Urine? Japan, Airports, and Homeowners (11:30–13:57)

• International demand is strong: A major distributor in Japan uses predator urine to keep wild boar out of rice paddies.
• Denver International Airport used "Peashots" canisters to deter rabbits from eating soy-based car wires in parked cars (12:01).
• Majority of customers are U.S. homeowners seeking nontoxic solutions for gardens and chicken coops.
  • "They buy a hundred dollars worth of pee to keep raccoons out of the chicken coop or discourage chipmunks from foraging for butter lettuce in the garden."
    — Zachary Crockett (12:23)

6. Does It Work? Science & Psychology of Urine-Based Deterrents (12:53–13:37)

• Studies show mixed results: Bobcat urine reduced groundhog damage to apple trees by up to 98%, but leopard pee was ineffective against rodents.
• Some customers simply like using a natural pest deterrent rather than chemical products.
  • "Here’s an all natural product that takes animals’ natural instinct and puts it to work for your customers."
    — Ken Johnson (13:28)

7. Offbeat Uses and The Future of Pee (13:37–14:09)

• Beyond pest control:
  • Pranks (bottles sent to friends, ex-spouses, lawyers).
  • Retailers spray storefronts to dissuade loiterers.
• Family business: Johnson's daughter and son-in-law are set to take over.
  • "It supported our family for 37 years and now my daughter and her husband are in the process of taking it over. It’s been good to us."
    — Ken Johnson (14:09)

8. Logistics: Shipping Animal Urine (14:40–14:51)

• Shipping is handled carefully to avoid unpleasant accidents:
  • "We’re very careful in our packing and everything because the mailman would not like it to burst open in his truck."
    — Ken Johnson (14:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "In a crude way, to me, it's the smell of money." — Ken Johnson (01:46)
• "That’s a light bulb moment. I realized that urine is a communications player in the wild." — Ken Johnson (05:05)
• "Coyote urine is one of our two best sellers. The other one: wolf." — Zachary Crockett (07:47)
• On product sourcing: "They collect the urine with a floor drain and they ship it to us. And that’s about it. It’s not very complicated." — Ken Johnson (08:59)
• On animal instincts: "Here’s an all natural product that takes animals’ natural instinct and puts it to work for your customers." — Ken Johnson (13:28)
• On unusual customers: "We’ve had people send it to their ex wives, to their ex wives’ lawyers or to their current wives’ lawyers." — Ken Johnson (13:57)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:02 – Introduction of Ken Johnson, “the PE Man”
• 03:17 – Origins of using animal urine for hunting camouflage
• 05:05 – Shift from hunting to home & garden market
• 06:20 – Coyote/wolf urine as pest deterrent, industry growth
• 08:59 – Collection and logistics of animal urine
• 11:30 – Major customers: Japan, airports, and homeowners
• 12:53 – Scientific studies on effectiveness
• 13:37 – Strange and humorous uses for animal urine
• 14:09 – Johnson discusses family legacy and succession
• 14:40 – Careful shipping to avoid leaks

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Conclusion

This episode pulls back the curtain on the decidedly unglamorous but unexpectedly thriving industry of animal urine as a pest repellent and commercial product. What began as a hunter’s trade secret has become a lucrative niche business, fueled by both rising suburban wildlife encounters and the appeal of natural solutions. Through quirky anecdotes and economic insight, Zachary Crockett reveals that sometimes, one man’s waste is truly another man’s treasure.

Transcript

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On a recent Monday morning, I found myself comparing aromatic notes with a true connoisseur of sorts.

[C]

When you're in this business, you know, you have a lot of opportunities to smell things. They each have a very unique aroma. I've often thought to describe it the way wine is described. Mountain lion is my favorite. It has a very unique burnt umber smell. The wolf has the darkest color. The smell is rich and it has, I would say, notes of earth.

[B]

You make it sound so great.

[C]

Well, I can't help it, you know, in a crude way, to me, it's the smell of money.

[B]

This expert smeller, his name is Ken Johnson, but in certain circles, he goes by a different moniker.

[C]

Well, I'm known as the PE man. I started and operate predatorp.com Johnson sells.

[B]

A product that is generated every day in huge quantities. Most of us think of it as waste. But where one man sees animal urine, another man sees treasure.

[C]

It's really the ultimate recycling. You take something that would normally be just disposed of and put it to work in a way that's natural.

[B]

For the Freakonomics radio network, this is the economics of everyday things. I'm Zachary Crockett. Today, animal urine. As a kid in New Jersey, Ken Johnson loved the outdoors. The first chance he got, he moved to one of America's most rugged states to study forestry at the University of Maine. After school, he stayed up there. He found his way into the ad business and eventually started his own marketing firm. But in the mid-1980s, he took on a client closer to his interests. It was a little company called Foggy Mountain Hunting scents and lures. Foggy Mountain was run by a local hunter named Wayne Bossowitz.

[C]

He was everything you would expect in a bear hunting guide. All right, he was big, he was rugged.

[B]

Bossowitz's company filled a critical need.

[C]

In the hunting world. You want to get close to the game animal you're hunting. The way you do that is you either attract the animal or you camouflage your human scent.

[B]

A white tailed deer has around 300 million olfactory sensors. Its senses smell 60 times stronger than ours. That means the deer can usually smell you before you've seen it. To solve that problem, Bostowitz enlisted an age old hunting trick. He doused himself with animal pee. And not just any animal pee. It had to be something that didn't scare the deer away.

[C]

Foxes are naturally occurring animals in the same territory as a deer, but they're not a predator of a deer. So deer, when they smell a fox, there's no concern. Hunters use fox urine on their clothing and they can get closer to the deer. Now the more inventive hunters will use something as strong as skunk essence.

[B]

Basowitz started bottling animal pee in mayonnaise jars and selling it at trade shows. When he eventually decided to sell the company in 1986, Johnson saw an opportunity to expand. And with a little financial backing, he took over. At first, the business catered to hunters. Then Johnson began to notice something strange. He was getting a ton of orders outside of hunting season. He called one of his customers and asked what was up.

[C]

He said, oh, yeah, everybody around here uses it to keep rabbits out of their garden. That's a light bulb. Moment I realized that urine is a communications player in the wild. It's how wild animals find a mate. It's how they protect their territory, and it's how they detect the predator.

[B]

As it turned out, Johnson's entry into the animal pee business was well timed.

[C]

The wilder areas were being developed, homes, suburbs, that sort of thing. And deer were wandering everywhere. And when they were looking for food, the shrubs, the garden were easy pickings.

[B]

Between 1900 and 2020, the deer population in the US grew from around 300,000 to 32 million. All those deer were wreaking havoc on newly created suburbs and rural developments. A Clemson University report pegged the total damage that deer inflicted on gardens and landscaping at $250 million per year. And that study only looked at 13 states homeowners were in desperate need of a solution. And Johnson had just the thing. Coyote urine.

[C]

Think about deer. They come onto your yard and there it is, the scent of a coyote. So there's a decision that deer has to make. Is it going to risk the coyote to get the food or not?

[B]

These days, the market for animal urine has never been hotter. You can find an impressive array of pee products on the shelves at big box retailers like Walmart, Home Depot and Lowe's. On ebay, small outfits sell artisanal batches of private stock urine from their personal collections. Companies with names like the pmart and Just Sensational move the stuff by the gallon. According to Jungle Scout, a tool used to track e commerce sales, retailers sell around $200,000 worth of coyote and wolf urine each month on Amazon alone. And Johnson's company controls a substantial share of that market. On his website, predatorpea.com, a 16 ounce spray bottle of coyote urine goes for 33 bucks. It's one of his two best sellers. The other one, Wolf.

[C]

The Wolf urine is an interesting one that's grown as a major product for us over the years. Because of the coyote problem.

[B]

Ah, yes, the coyote problem. Since the 1980s, the market for their furs has been way down. With fewer trappers on the prowl, the coyote population has tripled. And while wolves no longer live in most of the U.S. johnson says their scent in bottled form still makes coyotes think twice about entering someone's property.

[C]

The wolf is the alpha. Deep down, a coyote knows the smell of wolf urine is a problem.

[B]

Coyote and wolf pee are Johnson's biggest sellers. But wait, there's more.

[C]

We sell fox urine for the squirrels and rabbits. Skunks, chipmunks, bobcat urine for mice, moles, various small rodents. Mountain lion urine for wild boar, javelina, armadillo. Bear urine is a smaller product category. But in northern areas where you have animals like moose and the mule deer, the bear pee is very effective.

[B]

Now, if you want to sell thousands of gallons of animal pee, you need a steady stream of product.

[C]

The animals are in various places. Zoos, game farms, refuges. They collect the urine with a floor drain and they ship it to us. And that's about it. It's not very complicated.

[B]

The pee is stored in 55 gallon drums and transported by the truckload to Johnson's processing facility in Maine. From there, it's bottled up and shipped to customers all over the world. So who's buying all this animal pee? That's coming up. The economics of everyday things is sponsored by crowdstreet. You're the kind of person who reads the fine print, who likes to make your own calls, who's built a life, not to mention a career, by thinking independently. So why shouldn't you invest that way too? Crowdstreet is built for self directed investors who want direct access to private market opportunities like private equity, private credit and real estate. Vetted offerings, transparent data and clear diligence summaries help you make confident, informed choices. Because independence doesn't stop at your desk or your business or your weekend projects, it should extend to your investments too. Invest the way you live independently. Learn [e-mail].

[D]

We've all been there. You hold on to a coupon, hoping to cash it in at the store. But then you forget about it and suddenly you've got a mountain of useless expired coupons.

[A]

Do you think this one's still good? Free milk?

[D]

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[A]

Dang it.

[D]

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[A]

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[D]

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[B]

Ken Johnson says the demand for animal urine has shown up in some unexpected places.

[C]

Our largest customer is our distributor in Japan. He's been buying our products for 10 to 15 years now, and they use it agriculturally over there to keep wild boar out of the rice paddies.

[B]

In 2013, Johnson's predator urine even helped solve a problem at Denver International Airport.

[C]

The long term parking was infested by rabbits. A lot of the car wires are now made with soy, and rabbits love the soy. We have a product we call Peashots, which are small canisters with vented caps that you can put in your engine compartment.

[B]

But most of Johnston's business comes from homeowners. They buy a hundred dollars worth of pee to keep raccoons out of the chicken coop or discourage chipmunks from foraging for butter lettuce in the garden. This raises a if you want to protect your home from pests, you have plenty of options. Chemical agents, pellets, you know, fences. So why would consumers choose to spray their gardens with urine? Well, there's some science behind it.

[C]

When we started doing this, we would get inquiries from laboratories that wanted to research how this works.

[B]

The scientific conclusions on the effectiveness of predator peevish have been mixed. One study found that applying bobcat urine to apple trees reduced groundhog damage by up to 98%. Another study showed that leopard pee had no effect whatsoever on the determined spirit of small rodents. But some customers like using a pest control product that wasn't made in the lab.

[C]

Here's an all natural product that takes animals natural instinct and puts it to work for your customers.

[B]

As it turns out, animal urine has a few other uses too. People have sent bottles to their friends as a prank. They've sprayed it on storefronts to keep people from loitering around their businesses. And they've used it as a form of retribution.

[C]

We've had people send it to their ex wives, to their ex wives lawyers or to their current wives lawyers.

[B]

For Johnson, though, the market for animal waste has been a golden ticket.

[C]

It supported our family for 37 years and now my daughter and her husband are in the process of taking it over. It's been good to us.

[B]

For the economics of everyday things, I'm Zachary Frockett. This episode was produced by Sarah Lilly with help from Lyric Bowdick and mixed by Jeremy Johnston. Are there ever concerns about transporting animal urine?

[C]

We're very careful in our packing and everything because the mailman would not like it to burst open in his truck.

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