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- [00:00]
Ed Mylett
So, hey guys, listen. We're all trying to get more productive and the question is, how do you find a way to get an edge? I'm a big believer that if you're getting mentoring or you're in an environment that causes growth, a growth based environment, that you're much more likely to grow and you're going to grow faster. And that's why I love Growth Day. Growth Day is an app that my friend Brendan Burchard has created that I'm a big fan of. Write this down. Growthday.com forward/ed. So if you want to be more productive. By the way, he's asked me, I post videos in there every single Monday that gets your day off to the right start. He's got about 5,000, $10,000 worth of courses that are in there that come with the app. Also, some of the top influencers in the world are all posting content in there on a regular basis, like having the Avengers of personal development and business in one app. And I'm honored that he asked me to be a part of it as well and contribute on a weekly basis. And I do. So go over there and get signed up. You're going to get a free tuition, free voucher to go to an event with Brendan and myself and a bunch of other influencers as well. So you get a free event out of it also. So go to growthday.com that's growthday.com Ed.
- [01:01]
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- [02:07]
Thais Gibson
This is the Ed Milet Show.
- [02:11]
Ed Mylett
Hey everyone. Welcome to my weekend special. I hope you enjoy the show. Be sure to follow the Ed Mylett show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. I was just telling this lady that off camera that her works really made a profound impact on me even in the last few days of my life. Her name is Thais Gibson. So, Thais, welcome to the show.
- [02:31]
John Kim
Thank you so much, Ed, for having me. I'm really grateful to be here with you.
- [02:34]
Ed Mylett
Yeah, let's, let's step back just for a second. And because there's tell us what attachment style is. We'll get into the four types in a minute. And then also where it comes from. I was really struck about this one parent thing that you talk about. So what is an attachment style in general and where does it come from? And then we'll talk about what the ones are perfect.
- [02:52]
John Kim
So. So our attachment style is basically the subconscious set of rules that we've learned about how to give and receive love and really what to expect in relationships. And I often give people the analogy that if you have a different attachment style than somebody else, it's like sitting down to play a board game. And you have the rules for Monopoly and I have the rules for Scrabble. Like, even if we want to have fun and play the game, we're just going to have unnecessary friction and confusion because we have different rules. So our attachment style, which first of all, every single person has one, is the set of rules that we've had for love. So when we have different rules, it creates a lot of problems and challenges. But also three of the four styles are insecurely attached, and that makes for some difficult strategies and points of communication. So there's a lot that we can really improve there and become securely attached and that will help create a lot of transformation.
- [03:43]
Ed Mylett
Isn't there the theory, or your theory is that it comes from some sort of dynamic with one of your parents primarily. Am I right about that?
- [03:50]
John Kim
Am I getting that correct? So, so basically you learn how to give and receive love through your parents as a whole. Like, those are first subconscious programs we develop in regards to what love looks like, how our needs are met, how our emotions should be treated, how we should be spoken to in relationships. All of that is modeled to us at a very young age. And the three ways we really pick up programming from a very young age are what we see RePet, or what's modeled to us, what we hear repeatedly, and what our firsthand experiences are. So those relationships we have with our caregivers as children really form that strong foundation for exactly how we expect love and relationships to go in our adult life.
- [04:30]
Ed Mylett
See, I told you off camera. I think the reason your work is so profound and this conversation today will be everybody is self awareness is Such a powerful tool to have in your life. By the way, my favorite people I like to have around me I think have a heightened self awareness. They've done some work on that. But the reason this works contextually what we're about to cover everybody is you're really going to begin to understand yourself so well and why you feel or don't feel loved when you're in a relationship and it could be an intimate relationship or a friendship and and then also how to give it to the right person at the same time so that they can feel it. I've often said on the show, not often I've said a couple times that I think I'm and this is a confession that was, I don't know, painful to admit. But in my case I think I'm pretty good at giving love to other people. You know, I think in my life I've been pretty good to my friends and family. But I have struggled to allow myself the gift of feeling it and I want to more and I think the last few years that's improved to some extent. But you nodded when I said that. Do you hear that often or do you relate to that?
- [05:40]
John Kim
I knew the moment you shared about your childhood. So. So as I had mentioned off camera I had seen some of your videos before doing speaker training and I actually I listened to was a beautiful story about having a parent who was an alcoholic and basically that's most likely to create a fearful avoidant attachment style and fearful avoidance are renowned this is actually what I was as well before doing the work. Fearful avoidance are renowned for being very loving, very good thing show up 10 out of 10 for people in times of crisis emergency really good at rolling with the punches, very resilient but also actually have a hard time truly being vulnerable about the that are deeply vulnerable to them specifically relying on people letting people in deeply feeling like they can really trust somebody will always be there for them. And so it's like you over give and under receive and that's very fearful avoidance. So as soon as you said that I was like that probably would be par for the course. So that's why I nodded.
- [06:34]
Ed Mylett
Dawn, you're right. I started to read your work like yep, that one's me. And by the way, one thing she says we're going to go through it now too that I love is this isn't necessarily a static thing either. And so just it's so great. So let's, let's take our time on this because I think just this right here if someone could Understand themselves or others is an invaluable lesson that will actually could alter the direction of your life and the bliss that you feel in your life, the joy, the love that you feel. So what are the four attachment styles? And take your time on each one. And if you want to describe the behaviors that go with them, because that's what helped me, that the style and then the behaviors I think is, I think everybody right now, if you're driving, you're going to want to probably go back and listen to this again because you're going to, you're going to want to write this down.
- [07:18]
John Kim
Okay, perfect. So the first of four is our securely attached style. And this is the one that we ideally want to become because as you just mentioned, our attachment style, it's not like a personality disorder or a diagnosis. It's basically just a set of programs that you have about love. So this is something we can change.
- [07:34]
Ed Mylett
Now.
- [07:34]
John Kim
The securely attached style gets a lot of what we call approach oriented behaviors in childhood. And approach oriented behavior psychologically means that when a child cries or expresses emotion, caregivers go towards that child and they are very attuned, very present. They are able to try to soothe the child. I know that sounds like it might be a small thing, but it actually has a massive impact. Because what a child learns growing up in this kind of environment is it's safe to express emotion, it's safe to rely on other people. My needs are worthy of being met and listened to, and I can really trust other individuals to look out for me, to take care of me. So securely attached individuals grow up to essentially have really healthy modeling and skills for relationships. And as a result, statistically, they report being in the longest lasting relationships. But I'm sure we can both agree that that's not what we would call a thriving relationship per se. Securely attached individuals also report being happiest in their relationships. They report actually feeling really happy and fulfilled by the romantic partner. So that's our securely attached style. There are three insecurely attached styles at one end of the continuum. In a sense, there's the anxious attachment style. Now, the anxious individual grows up with a lot of inconsistency in childhood, but often loving and fairly present caregivers when they are with that parent. Okay, so generally what you'll see is an anxious attachment style may have love and very caring parents, but perhaps they work a lot. So it's like love is there, love is taken away. Love is there, love is taken away. Now, neuroplastically, we get conditioned through Repetition and emotion. So this will fire and wire. These deep rooted fears of okay, love keeps getting taken away. Am I going to be abandoned?
- [09:25]
Ed Mylett
Does this happen with divorced parents too, where you go to one loving parent to another loving parent, or would that be different?
- [09:31]
John Kim
That would be an exact example. So I'm just giving it one example, but that could be one. It could also be that we have a very loving parent, but another parent who's much more inconsistent or a little bit withdrawn. So the juxtaposition of love there and not really there in the same way, all of those things would create the consistency of inconsistency, which is that overarching theme that will create an anxious attachment style. So anxious attachment cells then grow up to have these big core wounds in relationships. They fear being abandoned, alone, rejected, disliked, excluded. And they basically cope with these fears by trying to maintain proximity. So your anxious attacher is often the person who will call repeatedly, text many, many times, move very fast in relationships, really derive a lot of their sense of self esteem and self confidence through their relationships rather than through a relationship with self. And they often will get caught. People pleasing a lot sometimes be boundaryless in relationships. And of course, unfortunately, a lot of these things become self fulfilling prophecies. So because they hold on so tightly, they often accidentally push people away. And exactly what they're afra afraid of usually comes to fruition.
- [10:45]
Ed Mylett
I can hear millions of people nodding their heads right now, thinking about themselves. Starting to explain yourself to you didn't if you were in that category, everybody. Okay, please keep going. I just think this is just so good.
- [10:58]
John Kim
Thank you. And at the other end of the continuum is the dismissive avoidant attachment style. So they're very much the opposite of the anxious in many different ways. The dismissive avoidance, overarching theme from childhood is childhood emotional neglect. Now I think when a lot of us think of neglect, we think of like the child's left in the corner, there's no food on the table. Oftentimes, I would say 95% plus of the time, it's very covert neglect. It's things like having, you know, parents in the household. There's structure, there's stability, foods on the table, kids are at school on time. But if you express an emotion, go in the other room, come back when you're done crying or don't be a crybaby or that's embarrassing, don't cry in front of other people, hold it together. And the constant mess messaging, which creates that programming, that repetition and emotion that fires and wires those neural Pathways that constant programming or messaging the child receives is your emotions. They're dysfunctional, they're defective. We don't really want them here because a child is wired for attunement. All of us biologically are wired for attunement and closeness. A child doesn't know how to make sense of that experience. And they don't go, oh, my parents emotionally unavailable because they can't conceive of that yet. So they go, there must be something wrong with me. This part of me must be defective and shameful and wrong at the core because it just constantly gets rejected. So they cope or adapt to that kind of experience by going, okay, I am literally going to just keep myself very distant from people emotionally, never open up, never allow myself to get seen or feel too much or feel anything too real. Now, as adults, the dismissive avoidant ends up often being in a relationship. Things are good early on. And as things as. As soon as things feel too serious, they often drop, leave very abruptly. Sometimes, you know, blindside somebody. And their big core fears in relationships are, I'm defective, something's wrong with me at my core. So they're very sensitive to criticism, even though they're very stoic and most people would never know. And they also feel afraid of being unsafe emotionally if they're too open, afraid of being weak, disrespected, not capable if they're. They're vulnerable. They have a lot of these deep wounds. And so they often are individuals who struggle a lot with commitment, with settling into relationships, and with wanting to let people in and allow themselves to be seen much at all.
- [13:22]
Ed Mylett
So good. I'm just thinking of somebody that I know very well right now. So it's great. About the way you describe the attachment styles is that everybody right now is either so far thought of themselves or a very close friend. They know that fit one of these attachment styles. I just want to say one thing too, before we get to the last one or the next one. I know that the nature of your work, everybody listening to this, is sort of romantic relationships. But I have to tell you all, when I read this, I actually have thought about friendships that I've had. I actually think about business and leading people and understanding the way in which they respond or won't respond. I think the application of her work is. Is very, very broad in understanding human beings and how to affect them and how to connect with them or understanding why you're not connecting with somebody. So. But anyway, continue, please.
- [14:12]
John Kim
And to your point, I couldn't agree more. This Is because our relationships, it's primarily first a relationship to ourselves. So that goes with us everywhere. But you'll see these patterns popping up absolutely in the work, with friendships, family, everything. So, so the last attachment style, this is what I was. And, and I'm sure this is probably what you are from the sound of it or words. But basically the last attachment style is called fearful avoidant. And sometimes it's referred to as disorganized attachment style. And basically, often the example I actually give for what will form a disorganized attachment style would be an example of somebody having a parent who's, who's an addict or an alcoholic. It can also be things like having a really bad divorce and being parentified. That was a lot of parents went through this sort of 15 year divorce. I was always in the middle of it at a young age. Lots of chaos, lots of really big fights happening my, my whole childhood. But basically what this is creating in terms of programming is I never know what I'm going to get. Sometimes I have these positive experiences with love where sometimes love is safe and it's okay and I yearn for it. And so I care about love and I want to connect. But other times love is scary, unpredictable, has moments of cruelty perhaps. And so what happens with the fear avoidant in their childhood is they learn to have these basically extreme competing associations about love that are on opposite ends of the spectrum. I want love and it can be really scary. Love can be beautiful, sometimes terrifying others. And so what happens for a fearful avoidant attachment style is growing up in an environment that's really unstable, unpredictable, chaotic. They basically learn I have this anxious side and they share in the feelings of the anxious attachment style. They can fear abandonment, they can fear being rejected or not good enough. But they also share the avoidance side. They fear being too close, being trapped, helpless, powerless in the wrong situation. And so fearful avoidance basically are very hot and cold in relationships. They're kind of pinballing back and forth. And for me as an example, I grew up feeling like I wanted to be close to people. I would be very loving and generous and giving. And then when people would get too close, I would be like, get back. And oftentimes the fearful avoidant flip flops back and forth. And a lot of this is because of those deep inner wired programs from childhood of okay, love is. Is good, but love is also scary. And it can create a lot of that sort of internal push, pull and confusion which of course often shows up in external relationships.
- [16:39]
Ed Mylett
As a result, it's so great. I have, you know, everybody, we're talking a lot about childhood here. And the more and more I've been doing the work I do the last 25 or 30 years, the more I realize like the vast majority of the work we're all doing is connected to our childhood. Like just the vast majority of our work is those, I don't know, those years were, you know, are from infancy to 10, 12, 15 years old and beyond, even teenage years. And I think the more you dive into that work, the more you are going to be an effective parent, an effective human, an effective friend, effective business person. You say in the book 95% of your thoughts and behaviors originate in your subconscious mind. And so basically our lives are sort of on this auto kind of pilot program. And then you also talk about the subconscious reality lens. I'm just curious as to what that term I think I know, but I. Not everyone's read the book. So what does that mean? And why does it matter that we have an appreciation or understanding of that?
- [17:40]
John Kim
Yeah, it's a great question. So we all see reality through a filter of our past, right? So I often give the example that somebody could have the exact same external experience. We could take for example, an anxious attachment style and a dismissive who's the more avoidant one? And they could both be dating, let's say somebody who doesn't call them back. Well, the anxious attachment style, because we see through the filter of our past programming, it's really the lens that we see and interact with the world through. They're probably going to make it mean I'm about to be abandoned because that's their past experience. Those are the conclusions the mind will jump to. Whereas a dismissive avoidant attachment style, they're probably going to make it mean I'm free, I don't have to talk on the phone. Because they often fear too much vulnerability, too much closeness. So you know, we never really have these objective points of view. We're all living through this subjective worldview that's first being conditioned by and wired in by our pre existing programs from childhood. Now one thing that's really important to recognize is that our mind is also wired from a survivalistic perspective to hang on to negative things much more than positive things. If you are walking through a forest tomorrow and you see a bear and you run away and you, you are safe, but tomorrow, the, the following day you have to go back through the same path. You don't think, oh, yesterday I saw such a pretty tree next to the bear and there Was such a pretty flower on the floor. You remember the bear and its teeth. So we're wired to hang on to more negative experiences, especially when they impact us emotionally, because we think that by holding on, we then have a better chance to protect ourselves from them, which is why we hold on to our negative experiences from childhood. And then to keep ourselves safe, although it doesn't happen emotionally, we constantly reproject them back out onto our external world. We'll jump to those conclusions. We'll assume those same patterns we'll have with other people in relationships. And that's often the actual place that we end up sabotaging relationships from if we have unresolved childhood attachment challenges from a younger age.
- [19:44]
Ed Mylett
I think you also repeat those patterns to stay consistent with yourself. In other words, if I don't consistently do this, I'm somehow not being the me that I'm familiar with. And that's a scary change in and of itself. Do you agree with that?
- [19:58]
John Kim
There's a lot of research to back this. I actually talk about this all the time. I couldn't agree more. Our subconscious mind works very hard to maintain its comfort zone because to, to your point, it says, well, what's familiar is safe and thus I'm more likely to survive. And something that's so interesting is you'll see when people meet each other. So our conscious mind takes up to about 40 to 60 bits per second of data. And our subconscious and unconscious collectively take up to a billion bits per second of data. So we may meet somebody and be like, you know, we're picking up all this web of information about their micro expressions, their body language, their tone of voice, how long they may maintain eye contact, contact for. And people are often choosing people who will mirror back to them their childhood as well, because that's what's most familiar. So if you look at an anxious attachment style, they're so externally focused, they're so people pleasing everybody else, they're dismissing and avoiding themselves. So guess who? We often choose people who mirror back to us the relationship to self first, because that's what's most familiar and thus most safe. And so anxious attachment styles will often choose emotionally unavailable people. Hence that cycle will continue their likelihood of being abandoned.
- [21:08]
Ed Mylett
Outstanding. I'm thinking of one of the other applications I want to ask you about. So obviously you're in a romantic or intimate relationship with somebody. One of the things I was thinking about this, reading this yesterday. One of the main questions I get, and I bet you get to, is people that are in relationships together trying to, they'll say, how do I get my spouse, my boyfriend or my girlfriend to support my dream or this change I want to make? And I started reading these different attachment styles, and I'm like, well, if you could really have an understanding of the attachment style of your partner, that would certainly help you understand how to help them support your dream, help them support this business you want to start. Do you agree with that? Like, if you've got an abandonment issue and somebody says, I'm going to start a business or start to pursue a dream, I have to think part of their thinking is if you, if you're successful, you're going to leave me. If we just stay the way that we are, you'll never leave me. And so one of their, their real fears is, well, if you start to win and change and grow, you're. You're going to leave me. And so if I knew that, I would think if I was in a relationship with that person, I would want to be overly reassuring, that I'm going to stay, that I'm going to be here, that we're going to build this dream together, that I'm doing this for us. Do you, do you see what I'm saying? Do you agree with that?
- [22:24]
John Kim
100%. So a big part of what we focus on actually in this work and, and people hear it in the book too, is, is again to your point, that each attachment cell not only has these core fears, but they also have these core needs. And if you imagine, you know, if you've ever heard of the work of Dr. Gary Chapman, Dr. Gary Chapman talks about the five love languages, and he says, okay, they are words of affirmation, physical touch, quality time, acts of service and gifts. Now, I would make a very strong argument that our needs are much more impactful than love languages, because for me, I, for example, have a huge quality time need or love language. But if I sit down and I watch Netflix with somebody for an hour, that's gonna be way different than having like a deep conversation with somebody because that meets the need for emotional connection, for authenticity. And so, you know, our needs, in my opinion, have a much greater impact on the ways that we give and receive love and relationships. And what happens is each unique attachment style has different needs, needs. So, you know, anxious attachment cells, they need exactly like you said. They need more reassurance, they need more validation, encouragement, certainty, consistency, dismissive avoidance. They need more freedom, autonomy, independence. But they also actually really need empathy, support and acceptance, as well as appreciation about small things and fearful avoidance tend to need a lot of depth. They need novelty, exploration. They need growth. They also want, you know, this. This intimate connection and closeness, but they also want their freedom and independence because they sort of share in both sides of that ATT continuum. So I always tell people, like, if we had, like, a prescription for relationships, it would be know each other's needs and relationships. And then when we go through these big life changes or transformation, like you're building something, you're creating something, rather than somebody having to be like, oh, no, I want to stay familiar and safe and accidentally sabotaging the relationship as a result or having these protest behaviors or ways of acting out. It's like, well, if you know your partner's needs, when we go through big change, just pour into each other's needs during those times, and it will strengthen the relationship and also ensure that you're growing together rather than growing apart.
- [24:32]
Ed Mylett
So. Good. I was thinking. I'm thinking about a lot of different things, but one of them is, you know, when you're understanding these attachment styles, your own and that of your partner, helps you understand where resistance can be coming from sometimes. What's. What's the resistance that I'm getting from them? Why don't they want me to start this business? Why are. Why is it they don't want me to go do this? And now you might have a deeper understanding of. Of the reasoning behind, you know, not only their behaviors, but if you understand their behaviors and their needs, you understand where this resistance coming from. I wrote a term down just because I didn't understand if it was different than what I was reading. So this is just for my edification. What is integrated attachment theory?
- [25:13]
John Kim
So integrated attachment theory is the science of how we can actually change to become securely attached. We're not stuck with our attachment style. So it's actually the study of these. These five major places that we can do the work at a subconscious so that we can become secure and have, like, the strengths that came out of having an insecure attachment cell. Because there are strengths. We become resilient, resourceful, more empathetic, more compassionate in a lot of ways, but also have wired in those healthy patterns of secure attachment.
- [25:42]
Ed Mylett
Can you elaborate on what some of those places are?
- [25:44]
John Kim
Yes. So the first one is we have to reprogram core fears. So we all have these core fears. Like we talk. We've talked about the abandonment or the fear of being trapped or defective or criticized. And so we can actually that we're not born with those fears. We can recondition them through leveraging Signs of neuroplasticity. So repetition and emotion, fires and wires, new ideas. And it's not through something like affirmations. I'll sort of go down a rabbit hole here.
- [26:09]
Ed Mylett
Just please.
- [26:10]
John Kim
But a lot of people will try to do affirmations. So let's say somebody, for example, has a core fear, I'm not good enough. You're not going to really help yourself by saying, I'm good enough. I'm good enough. I'm good enough. I think it's a little bit futile. And the reason is because your conscious mind speaks language. If I say to you, Ed, whatever you do, do not think of a chocolate chip cookie, right? How did that go? So, so what happens is your conscious mind here is do not. But your subconscious actually speaks in emotion and in images. So nobody's waking up intentionally having these core fears. Nobody's saying, oh, I'm going to tell myself I'm not good enough 47 times today and hope that I feel good. What's actually happening is these are subconscious pre existing programs. So we have to speak to the subconscious mind to solve for that. So what I give people is an original tool to recondition these core fears that really are the saboteurs of our relationships. I'll be abandoned. I'm not good enough. I'll be alone forever. These huge things that wreak havoc on our life and relationships is we start by number one, identifying the core fear and its opposite. Very simple. I'm not good enough. I am good enough. Number two, we need 10 pieces of memory of times we did feel good enough. And the reason we have memory and the reason we pick 10 is because we need repetition for firing and wiring and, and memory is just container for emotions and images. If somebody recounts their favorite childhood memory, maybe it's them playing on the playground. What do you see? The images of the slide as you tell the story. You smile, your body language shifts and changes. So now we're using our conscious mind to speak to our subconscious mind. Step three, we record it for 20 and listen back to it for 21 days. Because it takes about 21 days to fire and wire these new strong neural pathways. And as long as we have have like 10 pieces of proof for how we feel good enough, or why we're worthy of connection instead of abandonment, or we're lovable instead of unlovable or whatever the core wound is that we're targeting 10 pieces of evidence. Listen back for 21 days. We will actually rewire these ideas that we've carried about ourselves in Relationships for very long periods of time. So that's the first one. So is reprogramming these core fears. And I'm sure anybody listening, if they're like, oh, 21 days, it feels like a lot. I would really encourage anyone, anybody listening to think of how many times that core fear has actually sabotaged your relationships. And it will always be more work not to do the work. It's. It's a lot to have to live like that.
- [28:35]
Ed Mylett
Yeah. You built those neural pathways, probably doing it for 21 years. You can spend 21 days trying to undo it.
- [28:41]
John Kim
Exactly, exactly. And it only takes, like, five minutes of the morning routine or something. It's very simple. So. So the second one is we need to learn our own needs. And so, you know, I mentioned those earlier. You know, for some people, they need the reassurance, the validation, the certainty. For other people, they need the autonom autonomy, the acknowledgment, the independence. So when we can go back and actually see what our. Our needs are according to our attachment style, we actually first have to learn to meet them ourselves. There's. There's a great quote from Dr. Gabor, mate, and he says, trauma are the things that happen that shouldn't have happened. Okay, so let's say verbal abuse, for example, which would maybe cause somebody to feel, I am not good enough. And we have those core fears, but it's also the things that didn't happen that should have happened. So this could be. If somebody gets neglected. Growing up, we're wired for attunement, so we will have these deeply unmet needs that come from trauma, whether it's small t trauma or big T trauma. And because of the subconscious comfort zone, because we want to keep that subconscious comfort zone alive in the relationship to self, we keep those needs unmet in our own lives first.
- [29:47]
Ed Mylett
Wow, that's good. Yeah.
- [29:49]
John Kim
So you'll see, like dismissive avoidance. They're neglected, and what do they do? They grow up, and they neglect their own emotions. Emotions. And so, you know, we see this time and time again for each person. So our step two is after we reprogram core fears, number two, we learn to meet our own needs. In doing this, if we can show up and meet a need that's deeply unmet every day for 21 days, we actually will change that within ourselves. And then what will happen is we will be attracted to the right people who will mirror that back to us. Because our point of familiarity, our own subconscious comfort zone, has now shifted. So we don't keep attracting that Those old patterns, those old people who will keep, you know, that self fulfilling prophecy alive. So that's really. STEP 2. Identify your deeply unmet needs. Meet them in relationship to self for 21 days. Step three, very simple, a little nervous system regulation. Because every insecure attachment style is often sitting too much in fight or flight or parasympathetic nervous system mode. So a little breath work in the evening or a little meditation on a daily basis, just something for 20 minutes a day to help recondition our body. So it follows our subconscious mind into feeling like it is safe to be in our body. Body is safe to be more present with ourselves. And again, it tends to come full circle in giving to ourselves those deeply unmet needs. Now those first three steps, I like to think of as being in relationship to self. Okay, I'm doing the work on me first. I'm removing my core fears. I'm meeting my own needs, I'm regulating my nervous system. The second ones are out into relationship with others. Because healthy interdependency means I'm a master of the relationship to myself, self. And I am a master at being able to relate to, rely on and be vulnerable with others. It's not one or the other.
- [31:33]
Ed Mylett
Okay?
- [31:34]
John Kim
And so our second two steps are communicating our needs to others and allowing ourselves to receive them and having healthy boundaries so we can show and share our true selves with other people. I often say to people, when it comes to boundaries, you know, when people don't set boundaries, they're like, no, boundaries are off. They're, they're gonna, they're like a separation instead of a joke joining. But a boundary is you sharing the nose in your life. You know, you're not connecting fully or truthfully by just sharing all the things you do like or that are great. You also have to say, hey, I don't like when this happens. Hey, I don't like these things because that's you sharing without your mask. And so if we can do these five major things and really connect in a real honest way with ourselves first and then with others, that's how we move the needle from insecure to securely attached in a fairly short period of time. And it will transform the relationship we have to ourselves and the relationships in all aspects of our lives.
- [32:27]
Ed Mylett
This is so good. Basic question. You cover it in the book, by the way. Thank you for this. It's just.
- [32:33]
John Kim
Thank you.
- [32:34]
Ed Mylett
I love real work that really makes a difference and really changes people every day. When we're on the road, people around us endanger themselves and others by using their phones while driving. They think they're hiding it. But we've all seen them and we know exactly who they are. For instance, there's the sneak, a peeker who darts their eyes between the road and their tail. X There's also the I got a ticketer looking upset because they just got a ticket for using their phone while driving. And what about the Fast Scroller who can't drive five minutes without updating their social feeds? Or the night lighter who has that mysterious glow illuminating the inside of their car after dark? We've all seen them. Does sound familiar, doesn't it? If they remind you of yourself or someone you know, rethink your behavior before you find yourself becoming the fender benderer, the veering off the road, or worst of all, the driver who killed someone. Put the phone away or pay Paid for by NHTSA People ask me all the time about owning a business. What are some of the critical things people? People matter. Things don't. And I gotta be honest with you, every team that wins has great players right now. You may have just realized your business needs to hire someone like yesterday. How can you find an amazing candidate really fast? Easy. You just need Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other job sites Indeed spons Sponsored Jobs posts help you stand out and hire fast. With Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for relevant candidates so you reach people that you want to reach faster. You only pay for results, so there's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show. Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com MyLet just go to Indeed.com MyLet MyLet right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com mylet terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money. When you bundle your home in autopilot policies, the process only takes minutes and it could beat hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Very short intermission here, folks. I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far. Be sure to follow The Ed Mylett show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. And really we're going to talk about today is relationships. And not just your relationships with other people, but also your relationships with yourself and how it impacts other people. And the man I have put in this seat today is so unique and so special. He is one of a kind. He's called the Angry Therapist, which if you meet him in person, he's not so angry. John, Kim, Jon, welcome to the show, brother.
- [35:29]
Thais Gibson
First, thank you for calling me a man. I appreciate that. Yeah, I feel very blessed to be here and to create a dialogue for you.
- [35:36]
Ed Mylett
Yeah. So I'm really grateful you're here. All right, let's get into. We're getting into relationship stuff. Not just. I mean, a lot of it's going to be boyfriend, girlfriend, significant other, whatever you want to call it, but it's also the one with you.
- [35:44]
Thais Gibson
Yeah, that's the most.
- [35:46]
Ed Mylett
Okay, so let's.
- [35:47]
Thais Gibson
And the hardest.
- [35:48]
Ed Mylett
So you say this thing self versus self, like uppercase versus lowercase. Let's just start there for a second. What does that mean?
- [35:55]
Thais Gibson
Oh, man. You know, I'll start with the book before this was called I Used to Be a Miserable and A True Story. And in my 20s, I was exchanging my truth for membership a lot. I grew up in la and so I didn't have a relationship with self. I was living very, very outside in instead of inside out. And it's really good that I wasn't successful then because I would have been, you know, the douchebag. It would have been very predictable story. I've got addiction in my blood.
- [36:24]
Ed Mylett
Me too.
- [36:25]
Thais Gibson
But. But yeah, I had no relationship with self, no sense of self, and so very approval seeking and especially when it came to relationships and women doing whatever I could to get the dopamine, mean, to get the, you know, whatever it is, the sex, the love, the approval. And it wasn't until 35 went through a divorce. And at that point, I had nothing. I lost my friends, had no money, I was broke. I just went on Craigslist, found a roommate, and I was like, man, what do I. What do I do from here? And I thought, okay, I want to start living a different life life. Because I have nothing to lose, because I have nothing. What would it be to actually now start to live inside out instead of outside in? What would it look like to maneuver more in my solid self? So when people say self, the S for me stands for solid. And what I mean by that is we all have a pseudo self. We all have a solid self. And I got them tattooed on my. These are all kind of like bookmarks of. They're dog eared pages of my life, my tattoos. And, and if you've seen the movie Fight Club, because I think it best explains this. At the end we realize. Disclaimer. I'm gonna have to give away the ending to do my point. But at the end we realize it's one person. Right. So there's Edward Norton and there's Brad Pitt. And Edward Norton doesn't have a sense of self. Right. He's kind of like, you've seen the movie, right? In the beginning he's just buying IKEA furniture and just like not sleeping, going to movies and all that meetings. And that's his pseudo self. And then he collides with himself self, which is Brad Pitt. And at first there's resistance. Get away from me. I want to have anything to do with you. And then through that collision, he starts finding himself, his solid self.
- [38:12]
Ed Mylett
Yeah.
- [38:13]
Thais Gibson
And then because of that, he finds a movement. He, you know, he's injected with passion, he becomes a leader, he gets to grow. Like all these things happen, the whole character arc.
- [38:21]
Ed Mylett
Yes.
- [38:21]
Thais Gibson
And I think we all have the Edward Norton inside of us and we all have the Tyler Durden I think was his name.
- [38:28]
Ed Mylett
Yes.
- [38:29]
Thais Gibson
And so the self, the self to me is the solid self. It's the what, what Marty Bowen in my, in therapy school calls. Well, maybe people call it the authentic self, you know, but I call it the solid self.
- [38:42]
Ed Mylett
Do you think that. Let me ask you about that. That outside in. Inside out is outside in meaning you're trying to get external stuff to give you a feeling.
- [38:48]
Thais Gibson
Yes.
- [38:49]
Ed Mylett
So, okay.
- [38:49]
Thais Gibson
Yes. You're living based on things that are outside of self instead of living from a place of value character, you know, stuff that isn't on the outside but is, that is internal.
- [39:05]
Ed Mylett
If you don't have that. So by the way, I told you guys, here we go. We're three minutes in and it's already freaking great stuff. But if you are an outside in living person, does that mean you're probably going to have pretty hollow empty relationships? Or can you actually have a effective loving relationship if you don't even know who you are?
- [39:21]
Thais Gibson
Oh, that's. I think the relationship would be lopsided because I think what you're bringing to the table is the cardboard cutout instead of like the human three dimensional. Right. And I think most of my life I was that cardboard cutout. If you are pulling from your pseudo self, which is the false version of you. And by the way, no one solid. I mean, you know, I hope not. Jesus, Buddha, maybe. But, like, as humans, depending on who you're around, like, if you're around your boss, you may be a little more pseudo. If you're with your kids, you're gonna be solid. If you're with, you know, friends, different friends. And. But generally speaking, if you pull more from your solid self, what you're bringing to the table is uniquely you. You're bringing your potential, you're bringing who you are, you're bringing the acceptance of your story. So a lot of pseudo self, people rip out chapters and they. They're kind of false advertising, and they pick out the good parts of their story and present themselves in a way that is attractive.
- [40:18]
Ed Mylett
I certainly still do that sometimes.
- [40:20]
Thais Gibson
Sure.
- [40:20]
Ed Mylett
I think I'm loving this. So you do believe that it's a. Because I think some people listen to this, are like, shoot, I still do do that. You're saying everyone still does it a little bit. It's to the extent or the propensity you have.
- [40:33]
Thais Gibson
It's when most of your days, most of your weeks, you're pulling from your pseudo self that you're at your lowest frequency, that you're not bringing much to the table. And so in that relationship, you're kind of a shell. You may be fancy, you may be funny, you may be good in bed or whatever, but your potential is low because your human isn't there. And, you know, and what makes you unique is the solid self.
- [40:57]
Ed Mylett
How do you do that? So by the way, you came to becoming a therapist late in life, like you said, right?
- [41:01]
Thais Gibson
Yeah, I'm a late bloomer, man. At 35, I did my first squat. I looked like a pigeon. I was a guy that, you know, biceps. And then. No, you know what I'm talking about. No legs. Right.
- [41:13]
Ed Mylett
Beach workout.
- [41:14]
Thais Gibson
Found CrossFit at 35 after divorce. And I was a screenwriter, a failed screenwriter writer. And put my wife at the time on a pedestal, so I revolved around her. So when the marriage ended, I had no life. Which is great because then you start. It's a black light, right?
- [41:32]
Ed Mylett
Yeah.
- [41:32]
Thais Gibson
It's like God says, this is what you have, you know? And so I found fitness And I found CrossFit. And I was like, what is this? This is back. This is 12, 13 years ago when they were like, flipping tires and alleyways and stuff. Stuff. And I was really interested in it. And then I kind of got obsessed with it and it was always about challenging myself because it was timed and dysfunctional movement, things I've never done before. And that became kind of my daily ritual so I wouldn't fall into depression.
- [42:03]
Ed Mylett
So your way out of that, which for a lot of people is too, was physiology literally moving your body?
- [42:09]
Thais Gibson
Yeah, that was one way in. It was that. And mortis cycles.
- [42:12]
Ed Mylett
Okay.
- [42:13]
Thais Gibson
One of the things that I tell people is with clients, they ask, okay, so you got the pseudo and solid. I need to connect to my solid self. And the solid self is usually the whisper. The pseudo self is the thundering voice. Right. That's been programming, advertising. Right. The shoulds, followers, social media. It's very loud. The solid voice is usually the quiet whisper. Because we ignore. We don't listen to our solid self. We don't listen to our truth because we're scared to stay there.
- [42:41]
Ed Mylett
You say this in your book and in your content that you need to listen to the quiet whisper.
- [42:46]
Thais Gibson
Yeah, More so.
- [42:47]
Ed Mylett
Yeah. What's that look like when you do it? Is it just getting alone and turning out the noise? Because this is profound, what you're about to say. This is profound.
- [42:56]
Thais Gibson
I think it's in the stillness when we talk about our truth, our intuition. I think it's in our stillness because we're so not used to listening to the quiet voice that we have to practice it until that voice then becomes louder. And we trust that voice. I think our relationship with self is like any relationship in that it's built, you know? And, you know, when people say self love, I kind of. I kind of feel like it's a bumper sticker because it's, like, throwing around a lot, like, gratitude. Right. And I get it. It's of course, self love, but self, like, I think that's harder, man, because we love people. We love family members that we don't really like or we'd be friends with because. But they're family, so we love them. It's a choice. But liking someone's not a choice. Right. Like, if I want you to like me, that's earned, man.
- [43:47]
Ed Mylett
Yeah.
- [43:47]
Thais Gibson
You know, I could say I love you as a brother, as another human.
- [43:50]
Ed Mylett
Yes.
- [43:50]
Thais Gibson
I don't know you.
- [43:51]
Ed Mylett
Yes.
- [43:51]
Thais Gibson
But then liking is earned. And so when you apply that to self, now enter the journey. And so when someone says, oh, yeah, love yourself, that's like, what, over the weekend? What do I need to do to do that? That's like a choice. Okay. I do love myself. I choose used to, you know, I'm alive, I'm feeding myself. I love myself. In that way. But if someone says like yourself, then it's like, I. So that's where I started. Do I like myself? What does that look like? And then I fell into fitness and bought a motorcycle and spent a lot of time alone.
- [44:26]
Ed Mylett
Brother, like, you're helping millions of people right now. And the way you articulate this, I have to tell you something is interesting. I love when I'm with a vulnerable person, I become more vulnerable. Right?
- [44:37]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [44:37]
Ed Mylett
That's why I love my show. And I think about the same age I started to evaluate that.
- [44:42]
Thais Gibson
Oh, wow.
- [44:43]
Ed Mylett
About 35. I'm 51 now, by the way. Huge work in progress on these things as well. But as I started to get to know me, even I don't. So it didn't start with liking me. It started, like, actually getting to know me. I found that my external relationship really dramatically became deeper. And by the way, over time, once I got to know me, I'm like, I kind of do like me.
- [45:05]
Thais Gibson
What was the catalyst for you? So for me, it was divorce. What was it for you?
- [45:08]
Ed Mylett
Success. Extra success. Meaning, okay, I did exactly what you were saying. I'll get another. More money, more accolades, more people know me, more followers, more this, more successful friends, more notoriety, more invites to cool parties, more jets, more this, more that. And I'm like, and I still am not happy. And this is a game I'm playing that is like, by the way, I've gotten really good at this game. I got different than you in the sense that I got good at that game, but it didn't produce what I thought it would produce.
- [45:35]
Thais Gibson
So you had success early. So by the time you were 35, you were.
- [45:38]
Ed Mylett
Yeah, I'd had some wealth by the time I was 35 and came from none of it. But I'll tell you what happened. I remember one day, I'm literally brushing my teeth. I caught a glimpse of myself brushing my teeth, and I realized in this moment, like, I never even look at me. Like, I might get ready to make sure I think I look good, But I'm never alone with me where I just, like, look at me. Who is this man?
- [45:58]
Thais Gibson
Well, you're busy being successful.
- [46:00]
Ed Mylett
I was busy being my pseudo self.
- [46:02]
Thais Gibson
Right, right.
- [46:03]
Ed Mylett
All the time, by the way. A pretty nice pseudo self. A kind person. I was a giving person. I wasn't a mean person. I've always, you know, I think I've been pretty good human, but I didn't know me.
- [46:14]
Thais Gibson
Right.
- [46:15]
Ed Mylett
And I remember just looking at me going, I don't know that guy. I don't even spend any time looking at me, never mind being with me or talking with me or enjoying me. And it started. It scared me. I'm like, I probably only have one more of these blocks. I don't have great genetics, so I'm halfway. That's when I was 35. I'm like, I'm halfway. Probably for me, genetically now, now I think maybe, hopefully it goes longer than that. But it's like, man, I don't want to get out of this life with never knowing me, never liking me. And then really, how deep are these relationships do I have if I don't even know who I'm bringing to the relationship? And so your work, man, like, really resonates with me deeply. And I think a lot of people listen to me. Surprised to hear two dudes about our age, you know, kind of.
- [47:00]
Thais Gibson
I'm 49.
- [47:01]
Ed Mylett
Yeah. I'm a couple years older than you. Right?
- [47:02]
Thais Gibson
Like, well, if I was in Korea, I'd be 50. Because they count the time in your mom's stomach.
- [47:06]
Ed Mylett
Do they really?
- [47:07]
Thais Gibson
That's why I don't live in Korea. That's why I stay in la.
- [47:09]
Ed Mylett
That's the reason. Oh, okay, so you're a year younger. Yeah. The other thing you said a minute ago, I want to go there is. You're talking about how you put your first wife on a pedestal. You have something. You said, bro, that in your work, that I just went, oh, my gosh. Which you said that we are taught. Listen to this. Everyone, you ready to go for, like, a moment? Which you're going to get a lot with. John, you said, we are taught that love looks like codependency.
- [47:32]
Thais Gibson
The measurement. Codependency.
- [47:33]
Ed Mylett
So what is that? What do you mean?
- [47:35]
Thais Gibson
Yeah. I used to believe that if you go down, I go down with you. If I go down, you go down with me because it's romantic and also Disney movies, rom coms, and that feels. It just feels like love. Right? We're all in this together. And now I believe if you go down, I'll give you my hand, but not my life. You know what I'm saying? We are two different people. And the image. And I remember this so well.
- [48:02]
Ed Mylett
A lot of people just heard that one. No, no, I don't want that. I want that thing that I see in the movie.
- [48:06]
Thais Gibson
Well, because it shoots more dopamine and it's sexier. The image that I see for healthy relationships. I thought it was a yogurt ad, but someone DM me said, no, that was actually a Viagra. Ad. And I was like, oh, okay. But it was two people in a. They're like in their 80s on, like on the Grand Canyon, you know, in separate bathtubs facing outward. And the only thing that was connecting them was their hand outside of the bathtub. And I remember coming across that in a magazine and thinking, oh, this is what a healthy relationship looks like. Because what I would imagine is two people in a hot tub on top of each other, facing each other, you know, and yes, that's sexy. And that produces a lot of dopamine. And that's kind of. I think we've been brainwashed to believe in the One and happily ever after and all that.
- [48:55]
Ed Mylett
You believe the One is bs.
- [48:56]
Thais Gibson
I do. I believe in the One in front of you. I think when you. When. And you've been married for so long, so I don't know how you feel about this, but 25 years. Yeah. And I think today that, like, doubles. It means more today, those years. But when you're programmed to believe that there is the One, I think the danger in that is whoever you're dating, you're gonna bust out your checklist. And if this person is the one and the one for the rest of your life, man, they better be perfect and everything better check off. And the sex must be mind blowing and all. And that's not. We're human, you know, and relationships are hard, and so it puts a lot of pressure and a black light on the relationship. Now, if the One is just the one in front of you now, you're more present and you're not thinking, if there's someone else in the world that is better for you or suited for you. You know what I'm saying?
- [49:51]
Ed Mylett
Yes.
- [49:52]
Thais Gibson
The One is always the one that you're looking at.
- [49:54]
Ed Mylett
Well, I actually think when you have a belief that there's just the One, that when you meet them, that potentially you come across as desperate or needy. Because there's one human now. And I think sometimes people that are in the dating circles don't realize that they have an energy they're giving off that once they think this is the one. If you have that belief system, potentially there are multiple ones that will be right for you. Right. Not everyone is right for you, but that when you do have this belief, this is the only walking human being on earth that will satisfy the things that I need in my life. How can you not come across as somewhat desperate when you do that?
- [50:27]
Thais Gibson
Well, you're gonna do everything you can to get this person or make this relationship work, right?
- [50:31]
Ed Mylett
And then, by the way, I think in that I want you to talk about it. Cause you're the therapist, not me. But that probably fosters codependency.
- [50:36]
Thais Gibson
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
- [50:37]
Ed Mylett
I mean, I need you.
- [50:38]
Thais Gibson
Yes, yes. There's a dependency. And that's also when you go from solitud to pseudo. You know what I'm saying?
- [50:43]
Ed Mylett
Why, why do you have to go from solid?
- [50:45]
Thais Gibson
Because you're not bringing your authentic self. You're bringing a self that is lining with desperation, that is now putting this person, you know, high up, that is now going back to the. The hot tub with two people on top of each other instead of in their own separate bathtubs. And then also, if you believe that this person is the one that you're supposed to be with for the rest of your life, what if it doesn't work out? What if she leaves? Like, you know, you just explained where.
- [51:08]
Ed Mylett
Most people find such misery, bro. Yeah, because they think they had them.
- [51:12]
Thais Gibson
Well, also, then you also get controlling. You also get jealous. All these other things, you know, the shadow sides come out if you believe this is the one person for you in this world.
- [51:21]
Ed Mylett
But I think some people listening to this, let's go there. Because you know what they're thinking? Okay? They're thinking, yeah, but then how deep's the connection if I don't go down with you? When you say go down, I assume you mean like, maybe they've, you know, become a drug addict or an alcoholic even. And you're like, I'm supposed to ride this out with you forever because you ruin your life and mine.
- [51:38]
Thais Gibson
Right.
- [51:39]
Ed Mylett
So there is, you know, I often think sometimes that with my children. You have kids, that's unconditional love. There's really nothing my kids can do that's going to stop this relationship with me. My daughter killed somebody. I hate to say this, but I'm probably helping her bury the body somewhere.
- [51:55]
Thais Gibson
Yeah, no, I mean, all parents, right? Right.
- [51:57]
Ed Mylett
But other relationships, there are conditions.
- [52:01]
Thais Gibson
There should be.
- [52:02]
Ed Mylett
There should be conditions, right? Like, hey, if you repeatedly do these things to me, that's a condition that's broken. And I think sometimes people go to this, the one thing or this codependency thing, whereas there are no conditions. And then if there are no conditions, if there are no boundaries, you're putting an awful lot of pressure on that other human being not to push the limits. Don't you think?
- [52:22]
Thais Gibson
Yeah. Yeah. Vanessa, my partner, says it in this book and I think we wrote together, she says it really good about codependency. That's her whole thing is. She describes it as if I'm. So basically what's healthy is if I'm okay and you're not okay, of course I could support you and stuff, but. But it's. It's okay. Codependency is when you're not okay, that makes me not okay.
- [52:49]
Ed Mylett
Yeah.
- [52:50]
Thais Gibson
If I'm not okay, you should not be okay too. You know what I'm saying?
- [52:53]
Ed Mylett
Very good.
- [52:54]
Thais Gibson
And that's like the whole, like, I'll give you my hand, but not my. It doesn't mean that if you see your partner going through a winter or a depression that you just, oh, that's not me. It's not that. Of course you. You're help, support. But at what point do you. You can't lose self or your life because, you know, because then they're taking you hostage whether they want to know it or not.
- [53:14]
Ed Mylett
This self thing is so profound, bro, because, one, I think a lot of us come into a relationship, by the way. And again, I'm being transparent. I think till I was about 35 years old, by the way. I'm still a work in progress on it.
- [53:23]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [53:23]
Ed Mylett
But if you don't know who you are, what do you bring into a relationship? And then also this loss of self when we enter a relationship is a really dangerous thing. 1. I don't think that you're bringing the vibrational frequency, the energy, the interest things about you if you die in order to be one in a relationship.
- [53:41]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [53:41]
Ed Mylett
And it's an interesting thing I wanted to explore with you because I've watched relationships end of friends of mine that were very loving. They were two wonderful people that got together, they formed a bond. There's us now, which I think is powerful. But at some point that us eroded, me and I, meaning that they were no longer an individual.
- [54:02]
Thais Gibson
Right, Right. They meshed.
- [54:04]
Ed Mylett
They meshed. And ironically, that lack of individuals, that lack of expression of who one is, became less attractive to the other person over time.
- [54:13]
Thais Gibson
It's called false advertising. Because, you know, it's funny because when you're single, you're working on yourself, you're going to the gym, you're doing all these things, and you're really doing everything to connect to you. And then you get into a relationship and over time, you know, then it's the sweats and the, you know, people kind of like let go of taking care of themselves and all that. And I think we have a responsibility when we're in a relationship, relationship to continue the relationship with ourselves, or else it is False advertising. Because when I met you, you were this type of person. And now, like, we never go out. You don't, you know, you don't court me anymore. Which should be continuous. Right. You're not fanning the flames. You don't. All the stuff that you were doing when we started is now gone because things have gotten too comfortable, you know, and so that's when it gets murky, and that's when people start getting curious about other people.
- [55:05]
Ed Mylett
I think you're exactly right. What about this idea of thank you for being so good at this? Because I think this is. I don't know if I'm good, but you're outstanding. And the way you express it is unique and it's why you're sitting here. Thanks. And like, I know when I'm in a good one of these. I know when I'm in something and I'm like, hey, this is special. You talk about different attachment styles. Can you talk about that a little bit?
- [55:27]
Thais Gibson
Yeah. And I'll just go through three. There's more secure attachment is. Attachment styles stem from childhood and of course, starting with our parents. But there's anxious attachment. And that is when you are holding onto the person's leg instead of their hand. Right. That's like me. I need the person to tell me that I'm beautiful and that they're not leaving and they love me and all that kind of stuff. Right. Lots of text and connection. There's avoidant, and that's more like my partner who runs the other way is not. Is avoidant with intimacy and hard conversations and vulnerability. We are not that much anymore because we've done a lot of work.
- [56:04]
Ed Mylett
I was going to say that would be pretty difficult. You're one.
- [56:06]
Thais Gibson
Yeah. There's different extremes of that, but if we were to classify. That's where I come from. That's where she comes from. And then they're secure. Insecure is again, when you have your own sense of self interdependence. When you are your own person, you have your own opinions. You can say no. You can say to your boyfriend how you want him to go down on you. You can express yourself. You can say, no, I don't want tacos today. I want pizza. And I know it sounds very, very simple, but in relationships, we don't do that. We actually start loving the. Because we think what love looks like is loving the other person. More than us. Yeah, more than us. And because that's what a good husband looks like. I'm gonna always put her ahead of she Wants pizza. She's getting pizza. That's what. That's what a man looks like. It's like, is it. Or are you exchanging your truth for love or for validation? Are you exchanging something that. You know what I'm saying?
- [56:59]
Ed Mylett
Yes.
- [57:00]
Thais Gibson
So now if that's the case, are you giving or taking? Because if you want something back from the person you're taking, you're not giving.
- [57:06]
Ed Mylett
Oh, my gosh.
- [57:07]
Thais Gibson
Giving would be like, hey, I love you, but today I want pizza.
- [57:10]
Ed Mylett
Is that what you mean by choosing ourselves, or is that a little bit different?
- [57:14]
Thais Gibson
Yeah, I think that also is choosing yourself, meaning stand on your truth and put action behind what loving, liking yourself looks like. And I think some people are good at that when they're single. But I think when they get into a relationship, when love enters the picture, right, Especially if it's toxic, right? Especially if someone is needy or codependent or controlling or all of that, the wheels fall off. And it happens over time, you know, it's like the boiling frog, right?
- [57:45]
Ed Mylett
Yes.
- [57:45]
Thais Gibson
It's a slow drip that can still drown you. It's not like people don't fall into toxic relationships when on the date, they sense all these red flags and they're like, okay, I'm gonna invest in this person anyway. Usually it's over, over time. Five, six years in. And now they wake up one day and they're like, I don't even know who I am.
- [58:03]
Ed Mylett
Yes.
- [58:04]
Thais Gibson
I don't know who I am. A lot of women and mostly women than men, from my experience with working with clients, wake up mostly in their 30s and been with people for five, 10 years. And this happens. And they're like, I have no sense of. I'm just here. I'm existing. I'm not living. And just having sex because it's obligated. And they don't know what to do. And they've really lost, like, who they are.
- [58:30]
Ed Mylett
Okay, so, like, 5 million people just are going, oh, my gosh. You just described me, right?
- [58:34]
Thais Gibson
Yeah. Now what do I do?
- [58:35]
Ed Mylett
Yeah, right. So what would be a. What's a. You're going right where I want to go.
- [58:38]
Thais Gibson
Well, it's.
- [58:39]
Ed Mylett
It's.
- [58:39]
Thais Gibson
It's kind of like, I think, where I started, you know, it's the hero's journey, man. It's the call to, you know, the hero's journey, Right? The call to adventure and Slaying youg Dragons. I think it's starting going back full circle to pseudo versus solid. What is your solid self? And can you start listening to that solid self? And it comes in micro moments. It's not like these big decisions like you know, life changing. I mean it can be, but it can be something as like, hey, you know what? Today I'm not going to go to work, I'm going to go to the beach. It's a quiet whisper. But then there's this giant should. Yeah, but you're this and you're that and that means you're a lazy piece of whatever. And so can you give yourself love, compassion, understanding and today can you execute what you want, the quiet whisper, and actually go to the beach? Can you give that to yourself without the shame, without the. And it's gonna be really hard. Most people can't. You start there and then you build and then you build and you get to a place where you start then able to set boundaries, to make choices. And it's also more attractive. Right? And then the people around you are like, I'll have what she's having.
- [59:45]
Ed Mylett
Yes, man.
- [59:46]
Thais Gibson
She's kind, but she's assertive.
- [59:48]
Ed Mylett
And you know what also happens? I'll have her. No, really, like what ends up happen is this becomes a magnetic attractive being again. Or maybe for the first time I so totally agree with you. And it could be actually standing up for what you want. Like I actually want tacos tonight. It sounds so trivial.
- [60:03]
Thais Gibson
Yeah, it sounds silly, but it's in the mundane.
- [60:05]
Ed Mylett
Or actually honey, you're going to watch the kids and I am going to the gym and actually stand for yourself and do something caring and loving for yourself. Right.
- [60:12]
Thais Gibson
And coming from not a place of controlling or getting back at anyone. It's coming from your truth and it's coming from, from a place of self, love.
- [60:20]
Ed Mylett
You know what is, you got this terms man. What is repetition, compulsion, repetition.
- [60:25]
Thais Gibson
I don't. I think my partner wrote that one.
- [60:27]
Ed Mylett
Okay, so that must be from your partner.
- [60:28]
Thais Gibson
Yeah, yeah.
- [60:29]
Ed Mylett
I think what it was is that you. I think I want to go there with it because I think it was like repetitiously falling into a pattern in a relationship where like you have a compulsion to continue to serve them in a way that maybe doesn't serve you anymore. So actually I'll make my own term of it.
- [60:44]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [60:45]
Ed Mylett
Let's just say I'm right.
- [60:46]
Thais Gibson
I love it. I think you are right.
- [60:47]
Ed Mylett
But I think that happens intimacy wise too where like there's something that. And we're going really deep here, but like there's something intimately that your partner really loves that you don't enjoy, that you don't like, but you repetitiously do it out of some compulsion to serve them or maybe some verbal thing you do or a particular behavior you have. Maybe it's not even in an intimate way, but it doesn't serve you, it doesn't make you feel good about you. There's a way they speak to you or you speak to them, but it makes them feel good. So you have this compulsion to continue to do it. That's my version.
- [61:16]
Thais Gibson
Yes. So we all went out to dinner the other night. Me and like four other therapists. My partner's a therapist, our friends are therapists. Therapist. And we were talking and I don't know how we got on this topic, but we're talking about how women can go down on a guy and actually. Oh, as, as a way to avoid sex. And I was like, wait a minute. I said, but that's so intimate. And they're like, it might be for men when men are going down on women, but for women, they're, they're saying that. And these are all women, they're saying, it's not, it could be, it's easy, it's not intimate, and it could be a great way to get out of sex. And it blew my mind. And, and I was thinking. And they're like, yeah, and we've been doing it for years. And I was thinking, so that's kind of an example of a pattern that could happen. Right. If you don't want to be intimate, where that's kind of how you take care. And it shouldn't be happening because it's misleading. And also you shouldn't be doing it if you don't want to. But something like that over the years, the pattern of that is damaging. Right?
- [62:12]
Ed Mylett
Yeah.
- [62:13]
Thais Gibson
And we're just talking about just everyday stuff, you know?
- [62:17]
Ed Mylett
Yeah. Yeah. That's super interesting.
- [62:18]
Thais Gibson
And it shocked me because I was thinking, oh. And then I started playing back on my relationships and was thinking, how many of them were just doing it because they didn't want to have sex with me.
- [62:29]
Ed Mylett
You look back, I thought they wanted to do it. Yeah. Hey, guys, like my shirt? Guess where I got it. Quint. Yep. Quint is an awesome place to go get first class quality stuff. First class suitcases, clothes, gear, you name it, at affordable prices like lightweight shirts and shorts from $30 pants for any occasion. Comfortable lounge sets with premium luggage options and durable duffel bags to carry it all. The best part, all quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. What they do is they partner directly with the top factories. Cuts out all the middlemen you get the discounts and savings. Quints only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. So here's what I would tell you to do for your next trip. Treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quints. Go to quints.com ed for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com ed to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com ed this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, traditional in person therapy can cost anywhere from 100 to 250 a session. But with Better Help online therapy, you can save an average of about 50% per per session. And seriously, you guys, it could be the best investment you ever make. People ask me all the time what all your guests have in common, from the athletes to the entertainers, the scientists, the peak performers, you know what most of them have been to therapy. And what I love about Better Help is it can be done online. And so if you don't vibe with your therapist, you can switch at any given time until you find somebody you connect with. And therapy can help you with everything from trauma from childhood you really need to work through or a relationship breaking up. You've been in real stress all the way to just something as simple as you want to talk out loud and get some clarity in your life about a couple challenges you've got or you need a sense of direction. Right now your well being is really worth it. So visit betterhelp.comedshow to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp h lp.comedshow that was a great conversation. And if you want to hear the full interview, be sure to follow the Ed My Let show on Apple and Spotify. Spotify links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. I reached out to this woman to be on my show after I experienced her work and I haven't done that in probably two years. I was telling her, I said I want you to come on my show. She has a special out on Netflix right now called Mom Jeans, which I've watched four times, including last night with my kids and we were literally belly laughing, falling over and I cannot wait for this hour because I want to know you and I want you to help a bunch of people. So Christina P. Welcome to the show.
- [65:05]
Christina P.
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me.
- [65:07]
Ed Mylett
You have two parents, the goose who you speak highly of is. This is the good one, by the way. And so as I understand it, the good one. Your dad has been married five times. Is that right? Is it five?
- [65:20]
Christina P.
Well, you know, there's a little factual fudging here and there, but yeah, a few times.
- [65:26]
Ed Mylett
Is he really married to someone that much younger than him? Is that actually a true story? Or date someone younger than him?
- [65:31]
Christina P.
Younger, Yeah, I fudge a little.
- [65:33]
Ed Mylett
Yeah, everybody does in that sense.
- [65:34]
Christina P.
Yeah. It's for comedic purposes, but the gist.
- [65:37]
Ed Mylett
Of it is, yes, you're definitely dad was a player.
- [65:39]
Christina P.
Oh, I mean, well, yeah, I'll give you the stats. So parents are Hungarian immigrants. They escaped from communism, 1969. They get married at 19 and 20 and leave their country at that young age. Can you even imagine being like, I'm up, I'm out. Let's escape. Escape communism, bro. They go to Canada. They have me in Canada. And then we move to the US in 1980. By then their marriage has just dissolved because my mother is mentally ill. She's a borderline. But back then, nobody called it anything. We didn't know it. And she later became schizophrenic. And my father is an alcoholic, obviously, to deal with his. You know, they had horrendous upbringings. It's not their faults. Right. They divorce and then it's me alone. Ping ponged between my mentally ill mother or my alcoholic sex addict father.
- [66:33]
Ed Mylett
Wow.
- [66:34]
Christina P.
Right. But you know, it. Cause did your parents stay together?
- [66:38]
Ed Mylett
Yeah.
- [66:38]
Christina P.
Ugh. I'm not sure what's worse.
- [66:40]
Ed Mylett
Well, mine was redemptive because my mom was well adjusted. My mom was there and was solid. The reason I probably connect with you is I picture your dad maybe not all that much unlike my dad. And then I'm thinking, though, if I didn't have my mom and then you having a probably even more disconnected mother.
- [66:59]
Christina P.
Yeah.
- [66:59]
Ed Mylett
And I'm. I literally. I'll be honest with you, I'm watching your show. I want to make sure I do a great interview with you today because I actually, actually feel like this can care for you from watching you, which is a comedy special. I've never laughed harder either. But when you were speaking and doing your show, I was picturing you as a little girl. I was actually picturing it with your mom and how scary that might have been sometimes seeing her not be functional and normal and losing her temper and stuff like that. Can you tell us a little bit what it was actually like? Now that you're off stage, what's the real.
- [67:33]
Christina P.
It's Like, I'm still in therapy, you know, just to. Just to let people know. Like, I've been in therapy for 12 years. And then I feel like just now I'm getting into the actual trauma work where you feel the feelings of terror that you had as a child. And I had terror and fear because there was no. There's no safe place when you're like that. Right. So my mother would become. I remember one time she made these lunches for me that I didn't like. It was like Hungarian lunch, you know, like. Like salami with butter. And I. I take it to school, and I'm like, I don't want to eat this. You know, everyone's making fun of me because I'm a foreigner. And so I hide the sandwiches in the bottom of my book bag because I don't. I can't throw them out because I feel too guilty about throwing them. That'll get in trouble. And I can't tell her that I don't like the sandwiches. Can't tell her because she'll get mad. So I hide a bunch. Eventually, I have a stockpile of 14 or 15. God, my hands are sweating. You're telling the story. And I hid them in my closet. Well, eventually, the stench of 14 or 15 salami and butter sandwiches caught up. And she found them, and it was a rage. And it was like, everything. My anger. And then she kicks me out. And that's the beginning of kicking me out to go live with my. My father. And my dad's house wasn't a lot better. So that, you know, because of alcohol and girls and party and all that jazz. So it's basically like I'm betrayed. Everywhere I go, I look, and I don't have a safe place. And it's scary and terrifying.
- [69:16]
Ed Mylett
What's your day to day like then? Are you always scared? Always. Were you not a confident kid? The reason I ask people. You know why I'm asking you this? Millions of people listen to this. Will be like, okay, there's a piece of me in her.
- [69:28]
Christina P.
Yeah.
- [69:28]
Ed Mylett
I really believe this in life. Like, if you really want to impress everybody, just show them how perfect you are. If you want to connect with people and help them, show them your imperfections, for sure. And you and I both do a really good job of that. And so you're this little girl, and I just picture you bouncing from these two dysfunctional people.
- [69:43]
Christina P.
Yeah.
- [69:44]
Ed Mylett
And with no other even siblings to grab onto and say, okay, they love me. They'll protect me. Nothing.
- [69:49]
Christina P.
But you know who I Did have along the way were sensible adults. Adults, teachers that I liked and that I could speak to. I had American. I say American because like, you know, I'm an alien in the sense. You know this too, as a child of an alcoholic, you're an alien because you're different and you know it. And you can't tell people at school, like, what's going on at home because you know that that's a secret you must keep. So I would go to my friend's house. I lived at my friend's house. By the time I was 12, I was out, like, you know what I'm saying? Like by the time I'm 12, I have this epiphany. Epiphany that I'm alone, truly alone in an existential. Like I was a latchkey kid. So I was physically alone, but that I was an adult, I was gone. So I would try to stay at my friends houses and get the up. I'll tell you what I did know at that age is that my suffering, you know, when you're like, you know, you're suffering, but you don't really know. As a kid, you don't know.
- [70:43]
Ed Mylett
That's all you know.
- [70:45]
Christina P.
But I knew that there was something in sight of me that was resilient. There was some magic. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I would watch Pippi Longstocking.
- [70:54]
Ed Mylett
Me too.
- [70:55]
Christina P.
Yeah, so did I. Yeah. And it was like because of those characters, because of the mythologies and the comic, whatever it is, I was glomming onto stories, I would like pretend to be that person. Like my life isn't this, I'm Pippi Long. Isn't this fun? That I actually turn it into like I'm living with my single dad and he makes me eat on paper plates, but I can cut my spaghetti with scissors because I'm Pippi Longstocking. Like, I turned it into a fun thing.
- [71:21]
Ed Mylett
Yep, yep.
- [71:22]
Christina P.
You too?
- [71:22]
Ed Mylett
Yeah. I think that. Look, stuff's over said in personal development. Everything's happening for me, not to me. I don't know if I was the first person to say that or the third. I'd like to think I was the first. But sometimes that stuff's easy to say and hard to apply. But I do think, like, I became really resilient because of it. I became. I really, you know, like in the business world, I've made a lot of money. One of the ways I've made a lot of money is like two things. Both of them. Cause my dad was a drinker. One I haven't learned to be really read people well and be present with them. The reason was I had to figure out when my dad was coming through that front door, which one was I getting? Was I getting the sober one who was gonna be, okay, we're gonna have dinner and play basketball, or was it the drunk one? And, you know, maybe my mom and sister should go upstairs. So I would read this man and that I didn't know. Napoleon Hill says in Think and Grow Rich.
- [72:11]
Christina P.
Love that book.
- [72:12]
Ed Mylett
Me too. It's the second best book ever written on personal. Other than the Power of One More, which is sitting next to you. Yeah, but in that book, he says, on the other side of temporary pain, you meet your other self. And I met this version of me that wouldn't have existed where I'm really good at reading people and being present with them. And then the other thing I'm decent at doing is communicating. So are you. Because I had to learn how to talk to my dad when he was in those states so that I could change him just a little bit or even move. Certain ways I would move. Little did I. I know that those two things were forming this version of me that I would use someday to help millions of people. Then I watch you, and I watch your ability to have insights into human beings behaviors and how they move and operate, how they think, and then your ability to communicate. And I think some of that's got to be part of the blessing of going through what you went through.
- [73:08]
Christina P.
Suffering. Suffering makes. It makes you funny. It makes you clever. It makes you resourceful. Everybody I know, Ed, like you, most of the guys I know that are hugely successful didn't graduate from Harvard.
- [73:23]
Ed Mylett
Yeah, right. Me too.
- [73:24]
Christina P.
Were crappy at school and had horrible upbringings.
- [73:28]
Ed Mylett
Isn't it interesting?
- [73:28]
Christina P.
It's the secret sauce, isn't it?
- [73:29]
Ed Mylett
It is. It is.
- [73:31]
Christina P.
But I think for me, my father loved comedy and good humor. So I was watching Richard Pryor when I was little and Aunt Eddie Murphy and Saturday Night Live and Cheech and Chong, and this was my education. And then the truly tasteless joke books, I would memorize those because those would be in the bathroom. And I would tell those jokes to my father or to my schoolmates at school. I would go to school in, like, third grade and I would repeat these jokes that are by today's standards, completely verboten. Right? Like blond jokes and Jewish jokes and da, da, da, da. I didn't even know what they were, but I knew that people laughed. And that's how I could get out of stuff. And I also. I became entertaining to my dad so that I wasn't a burden.
- [74:12]
Ed Mylett
Interesting. See, if you right now, in the middle of this, like, took a minute and went over to YouTube and watched Christina, you'd see this, like, I mean, I'm not saying it's a compliment. You just see this very powerful, very together, very. To walk out on a stage, any stage, and to own it like you do, there's a command, there's something. So I don't know if you've done a lot of interviews like this. I don't think you have.
- [74:36]
Christina P.
No, we don't talk. Comedians are generally like, let's talk about our farts.
- [74:39]
Ed Mylett
Right. But comedians are also usually pretty dark people in real life. Right. Would you agree with that? I think that's one thing most people wouldn't know. My friends that are super funny, that do it for a living, there's a. I guess I call it a darkness or a pain or something they're moving away from most of the time in their life. Is that true?
- [74:55]
Christina P.
Well, here's the deal. The funnier you are, the more you've embraced the dark darkness. In my opinion, it's the funny. The funniest ones are the ones who know it's there and don't push it away. That's why personally, my taste in comedy has always been Bill Hicks or Carlin or these guys. I love Greg Giraldo, he passed away from drugs. But these guys, that could really harness the darkness and go there. I don't give a. About cookie. What's the difference between cookies and cookies? I don't care. Yeah, shut up. Tell me the real. You know. Yeah, so. Yes, but here's what I would argue is that most people are dark. Everyone has the shadow self. And comedians aren't always afraid of going there. But your accountant, your lawyer, your dentist, guess what? They're dark too. Probably only true.
- [75:45]
Ed Mylett
Yeah, but.
- [75:45]
Christina P.
But you haven't looked. You don't. You don't want to peek.
- [75:49]
Ed Mylett
If I'd have met you at like 12. Oh, who would I be meeting?
- [75:55]
Christina P.
Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah. Okay. You do you though. You do you too. Okay, okay, okay, okay. So 12. I started smoking cigarettes already.
- [76:06]
Ed Mylett
Okay.
- [76:07]
Christina P.
Started wearing all black.
- [76:09]
Ed Mylett
You did?
- [76:10]
Christina P.
I was already. School was kind of not interesting. I want to hang out, smoke cigarettes, listen to punk. I started. I wanna go to nightclubs. By 13, 14, I'm in goth nightclubs and like doing. Yeah, just kind of angry and confused.
- [76:28]
Ed Mylett
Go back a minute, I'll tell you. Me?
- [76:30]
Christina P.
Yeah.
- [76:30]
Ed Mylett
Is it really True. That you were in bars with your dad when you were a little girl. That's actually true. That's a true part of your life.
- [76:35]
Christina P.
Yeah, that part's true. 100%.
- [76:36]
Ed Mylett
Your father would take you out to a bar at 6, 7, 8 years old, and you would be dancing to white lions at the bar. Is there some truth to that?
- [76:42]
John Kim
Yeah, it's all true.
- [76:43]
Christina P.
So that part's true. And that's why. So I actually paid out of my own money to license that Frankie Goes to Hollywood song, I Wonder at the end.
- [76:50]
Ed Mylett
It's so. I'm so screwed up because I know about all these things. I'm like, damn, she must have paid for that to be at the end, because that ain't free. I thought about that last night.
- [76:57]
Christina P.
I paid so much money because Netflix paid for my crazy outfit, which was in Fortune. And they paid for this New York City. It was like, huge, huge budget. And then I was like, and I want Frankie Goes to Hollywood.
- [77:07]
Ed Mylett
Cause it's the perfect ending. You guys gotta go see this. But so that I wanna say that that's true.
- [77:12]
Christina P.
So I go to. So my dad. My dad goes to party. And, you know, back in the old country, you don't. There's no babysitters. So his dad would take him to the bar. I imagine that is what happened. And so I grew up in bars and nightclubs very early, so third grade. I've actually really fun memories as a kid going to these bars and dancing and dancing to the 80s music, which is the best. Dude, like, I really lucked out in that regard. And I have a vivid memory of dancing with sailors. And there's literally sailors. They're at Fleet Week or whatever, and I'm this little girl. And that song Mony Moni comes on and do you know what the hidden chorus. Hey, mother effort get effed. And they. And here I am.
- [77:53]
Ed Mylett
Everyone yells it.
- [77:54]
Christina P.
Yeah. And then I was like, oh. And then I'm chanting it. But it was fun for me.
- [77:59]
Ed Mylett
You thought White Lines was a coloring book.
- [78:01]
Christina P.
I did. I had no idea that it was about cocaine. I was so little. But then I'd go to school the next day, and I knew to keep it a secret.
- [78:08]
Ed Mylett
You knew. So there's something you do. This sounds really corny, but I'm listening to the part of your act, and I want to hug this little girl. I also just picture you at your age and me at that age and what I was.
- [78:19]
Christina P.
What are you into at 12?
- [78:21]
Ed Mylett
Well, at 12, I went the other way. Well, first, if you met me at 12. Yeah, if you met me at 12, you would meet a really shy kid. Really shy, really introverted. No confidence whatsoever of any type. But I was good at baseball, and so I kind of went the other way. I was more like straight lace. Never got in trouble, was afraid to become what I was seeing in my house. I was afraid my dad was still drinking when I was 12. So I kind of became more like an athlete type, I guess. But I wasn't like, one of those athletes where, like, I was a cocky athlete. It was just the only thing I was any good at. It was the only thing. Like, it was the one place I went where I was like, oh, I don't completely, totally suck here. And no one was bullying me there. Right. You know, I would worry. There was worries. Like, I would worry on game days if my dad was going to show up to a game, and if he did, was he drunk? If he was at the game, was he going to say or do. Do anything? Sometimes I feel bad because I'm describing these times, and I know my mom listens to my show and she's like, was it really that bad? And I'm like, I don't know. Maybe it is worse when I describe it now because it's all I knew, right? Like, it's all I knew. And my dad did end up getting sober. And so there's, like, the reason I'm in this, like, you can change yourself space. As I watched my old man do it, right? So I'm like, I watched my hero do it, but probably if you met me then, I don't even know that I'd be that much different than I am now. I think when people meet me now, they're like, I kind of expected, you know, I don't know, you'd have more, I don't know, like, that front that people have that are successful or whatever. I still am. Like, hey, man, I'm working on myself, and there's certain environments I'm comfortable in.
- [79:53]
Christina P.
Yeah.
- [79:54]
Ed Mylett
You put me in front of 15,000 people on a stage. I'm completely at home, and I own it. You put me in a cocktail party with, like, six or eight people and someone's right here, and I'm like, yeah, I gotta make the. Go to the restaurant. Like, I'm constantly trying to avoid. You said that Tom's a little that way.
- [80:09]
Christina P.
Yeah, my husband's an introvert like that, too. He's not the life of the party. I think I'm a lot more fun at than he is.
- [80:14]
Ed Mylett
You Think that's from the bar experience. Seriously, like, you're used to being social.
- [80:17]
Christina P.
I love party. Yeah. And it's also cultural. Like, we're Hungarians, so, like, on Sunday we have a party. Everybody comes over, you're telling dirty jokes, you're drinking. Give me. Awful. You know, it's like this. I was never, like, shy as a kid because my mother pushed me into acting when I was 4. So I was like, yeah, I was auditioning and already kind of a show business. And then I think around 10 or 11, I do like a pilot. And then I'm like, I don't want to be an actor. This is for the birds. This is. I'm depressive. And that's actually what I was going to share with you. So by the time I'm 14, upside down, this is when I get super depressed. Because now, you know, when you're messed in childhood, guess what? It comes back in adolescence. And now the drama. So I'm 14 years old. I'm goth. I'm cutting, right? I'm cutting up my arms just to feel some release because I'm so depressed. And I'm sitting in the room, in my room just to try to hide from my parents and the reality. And I. You know, you're confused. You think you're being dramatic. Like, is this really true? Is my family this wonky? Or like, I don't know, am I? Am I? I must be messed up because, you know, like, I'm the one that's flawed. So by the time I'm 14, I'm convinced it's me and not them. And I'm suicidal and life is like, I have straight Ds. I remember, like, I just decided to stop going to school. I just decided. I was in. I was in ninth grade, and I was like, I'm not going anymore. And then I just stopped going. I was like, no, thank you. And I stopped going. And then I was. I had straight Ds. I remember. And I eventually went back and I was failing out of school. And then one day I just went nuts in the bathroom stall, cutting. And I was just like, whoa. And I just cut. I just went crazy. And this friend of mine, this girl I had been friends with, and we had a falling out, whatever. Like, she found me. She took me to the office at school.
- [82:13]
Ed Mylett
Oh, my God.
- [82:13]
Christina P.
Yeah. So dramatic. And then my mom. Mom came to get me and she saw my arms, and then she started to hit me. I remember she beat me. And I was like, yeah. And I was like, just put me in A mental hospital. Like, I begged them. I'm like, put me away. I think something's wrong with me. Put me away. And my mother had worked for a psychiatrist, and I think she was worried about putting me in a mental hospital or whatever like, that it would stigmatize me or mess me up worse. So she. She was like, no, I didn't see a therapist yet. She's like, but do you want to go to Catholic school? And I was like, yeah. I mean, she showed me this brochure to this old girls Catholic school. And I was like, yeah, okay. So I went to the nuns, and I loved it. I loved it, man. I had a mohawk at the time. Like an orange mohawk. And I remember this nice head nun. The principal goes, listen, sweetie. She didn't call me sweetie. She goes, it doesn't have to be the color God gave you. It just has to be a God given color. I know. So I dyed it brown and I hid my mohawk and I grew it out, and I could put my book bag down and nobody would steal it. And by the time I had graduated, I was like a leader of this retreat. And I had. I just flourished because of the boundaries and the. It was an all girls school, too. So there was like, oh, I don't have to be cute. I'm wearing a uniform. I can just be a little girl again. And I reverted, and I was able to. To be safe. And that saved my life.
- [83:42]
Ed Mylett
Saved your life?
- [83:42]
Christina P.
Catholic school saved my life. Yeah.
- [83:44]
Ed Mylett
It's pretty amazing to see your face right now. This is mainly audio. I wish everyone could see your face. Interesting to see you talk about that time. Think about your mom there for a second. So she loved you. I mean, she was trying, with the limited capacity she had, to help her daughter there. Right? I mean, did that ever dawn on you that she did love you? Right?
- [84:07]
Thais Gibson
Yes.
- [84:08]
Christina P.
Yes. Now, obviously, too, a lot of what I say for Camille, it's no good if they're shades of gray, but I.
- [84:14]
Ed Mylett
Actually think you really feel it. Like, I actually think you. Let me tell you what I mean by that. I really do feel these things about my dad. I feel guilty about feeling them because I know that that wasn't his intent. It was his.
- [84:26]
Christina P.
You feel guilty about having negative feelings towards him?
- [84:28]
Ed Mylett
Yeah, I do. Because I love him so much, and I know he loved me so much. I've got to the other side of it now where I can. And this is so good for everyone listening to this, who goes through these things, but I. I don't. I think it's okay that I feel it. I feel sometimes weird that other people know I feel it because I don't want them to think that about me.
- [84:45]
Christina P.
You don't want them to judge him or you?
- [84:48]
Ed Mylett
Both. Both. I don't want to be judged for feeling that way. And also, like, I do know that my dad hurt people. Hurt people, right. So I know my dad was operating out of something that happened in his life, in his upbringing. Same with his dad and so on and so on. But I. I feel weird about the fact that there's this man I love so much, but that these things did happen. I do feel this way. You know, I have both feelings. I remember what it's like when I didn't feel good about them and I remember what it feels like when I do. And I. And in your case, your mom was trying. So when you went there, when you Catholic school does that when you start to change permanently or do you end up reverting back? Like, oh, okay, when do you become you?
- [85:27]
Christina P.
Right. So that's a good question. So also before I go there, I love what you say about having two simultaneous feelings, and I think that's what you learn in therapy is that I can love and hate my mom at the same time. I can love and hate my dad at the same time. I can thank my mother for all the wonderful qualities she had. She was fashionable, she had flair, she had timing, she was funny. She was crazier than too.
- [85:56]
Ed Mylett
Yeah, you see?
- [85:57]
Christina P.
You know what I'm saying? Like my dad too is just like funny, anti social, brooding, independent, resilient, like brilliant nut.
- [86:10]
Ed Mylett
Does it ever dawn on you, and I'll let you keep going, that they end up raising. I mean. Cause you're really humble. But does it ever dawn on you that these two people raised a daughter who now, I mean, let's just be real, like you're one of the more. I mean, you're gonna roll your eyes when I say this, but you are one of the more influential people on the planet in terms of your show and your reach and your husband and you.
- [86:32]
Christina P.
I don't even feel that way.
- [86:33]
Ed Mylett
Yeah, I know you don't.
- [86:34]
Christina P.
Do you feel that way?
- [86:34]
Ed Mylett
No, not at all. But it's ridiculous. But you are. And so these two totally dysfunctional human beings. No, really raised this single child together. Right.
- [86:45]
Christina P.
How?
- [86:45]
Ed Mylett
How Right. And then you end up. I mean, it's just. I'm picturing you cutting yourself.
- [86:50]
Christina P.
I always want to give you like terrible. These maniacs.
- [86:53]
Ed Mylett
And I was, by the way, I went through this stage where Like, I was so depressed. I don't know if I was. I used to think, what the heck is life about? Why am I living this life? What is this? Is this worth it at all?
- [87:01]
Christina P.
So that goes into that.
- [87:02]
Ed Mylett
Yeah. And I. Did you have that too?
- [87:04]
Christina P.
Yeah, man. So the darkness. So, okay, so hold on back what you were just saying. How did they raise someone? I'll tell you why. Because it makes me sad. Because my parents are wildly awesome people who had a bad go of it. Man. Could you imagine being born in communist Hungary? It's after World War II, so the country's already been ravaged by the Germans.
- [87:25]
Ed Mylett
War.
- [87:25]
Christina P.
War. Awful. Povert. And now the Russians come and destroy your country. And it's a nightmare. They have nothing. So I always think of them as this pure potential that just got destroyed. So I know that they've got the makings. Oh, but had. They just had my life, damn it. Yeah, I lucked out.
- [87:44]
Ed Mylett
They had your life. So you lucked out. Being raised by the two of them compared to what they had?
- [87:49]
Christina P.
100%. 100%. And here's another lucky thing. I had money. Now we weren't rich. I'm not saying I was rich.
- [87:57]
Ed Mylett
You ate food every day. You have to worry about where meals were coming from.
- [88:00]
Christina P.
No, not like that. We were like middle class. And I think back in the 90s, there was a middle class. Right?
- [88:04]
Ed Mylett
Yeah.
- [88:05]
Christina P.
And I hate when people poo poo money. It makes me bonkers when they're like, you need money Isn't everything now. It's not everything, but it's awesome.
- [88:11]
Ed Mylett
Yeah. And the lack of it is horrible.
- [88:12]
Christina P.
And it sucks being broke.
- [88:13]
Ed Mylett
Right? The lack of it's horrible.
- [88:14]
Christina P.
Yeah. So it changes. So it gives you a choice. So the fact that I was educated was a huge blessing. Now I barely eked my weight into college. Right. Barely got in, man. But I did. And then once I was out of the house, I was getting straight A's and I was like, oh, I'm not an idiot. It's just that I was in this place that I couldn't study because everybody was screaming and yelling and it was a bad environment. And that's when I found philosophy. So I started studying philosophy and that changed my life. And that's when I was like, oh, I have a brain. I'm not just like a screw up who tried to kill herself in ninth grade. And I was always trying to outlive that stigma of being a loser because my parents were like, oh, you, you tried to kill yourself. You know, it was like, I Disappointed everybody in my family. My grandmother wouldn't give me money that year for Christmas because she thought I was going to spend it on drugs, which I wasn't even really on drugs. You know what I mean? So I was like, this loser in my family. So I found philosophy, and I was getting A's, and I was like, you know what? Screw you, man. I'm going to be. I'm going to. I'm going to show you, right? I'm going to show you I'm a winner. And then I got into Oxford for a year. Went to study philosophy at Oxford. Yeah, man. What? Yeah, I was. That's what I'm telling you. So I went from, like, loserville to, like, I don't know what I'm gonna be, but I'm gonna show you. Mommy.
- [89:27]
Ed Mylett
Dad. Wow.
- [89:28]
Christina P.
Yeah. So I study philosophy at Oxford. I come back, and I'm. And then I do that show Road Rules.
- [89:34]
Ed Mylett
I didn't know you did Road Rules.
- [89:35]
F
Yeah.
- [89:35]
Christina P.
A million years later. And then I was like, wouldn't it be great if I could make a living just being myself? Flash forward to podcasting. But anyway, I had this great boss after college because I had this degree in philosophy, and I was such a useless degree. And he's like, you're the worst employee I've ever had. His name is Chris Abrego. Shout out to Chris Abrego. What's up, Anna? You're the worst employee I've ever had, but you're funny. Go do the groundlings. I was 23.
- [89:58]
Ed Mylett
Come on.
- [89:59]
Christina P.
And then I went to the Groundlings, and I was like, this is it. I found it. It's like when you find your thing you're good at.
- [90:04]
Ed Mylett
Yep.
- [90:05]
Christina P.
You found sports.
- [90:06]
Ed Mylett
Yep.
- [90:07]
Christina P.
And then I'm like, all right, hey, man, maybe, you know, I'm an idiot, I'm a loser, whatever, but this is something I love. And once you get obsessed, you know how it is. Like, when you find your obsession. I don't care what it takes, bro. I'm gonna keep coming and do this. Put me in a Motel 6.
- [90:23]
Ed Mylett
Yep.
- [90:23]
Christina P.
Okay. Like, yeah, I'll. Do you want me to go Afghanistan? Can I do 15 minutes of stage time in Afghanistan? Yeah, dude, I'll go.
- [90:30]
Ed Mylett
You did that.
- [90:31]
Christina P.
Hell, yeah. I did everything.
- [90:32]
Ed Mylett
You did.
- [90:33]
Christina P.
Well, I'm sure you did everything. By any means.
- [90:35]
Ed Mylett
But in your case. So you find it, by the way. It's one of the great blessings of life. I always feel for people that have not yet found it.
- [90:42]
Christina P.
Yeah.
- [90:42]
Ed Mylett
Because it's. I feel like of all the Things I got cheated out of in life. I did find some talents and skills when I was relatively young, outside of baseball, too, that I was like, okay, I like business. I like, I like speaking. This is stuff I'm pretty really good at. I feel at home. It doesn't feel like work when I'm doing it.
- [90:57]
Christina P.
That's the se boom. Doesn't feel like work when I, I always laugh when people call, you going to work tonight. Stand up. I'm like, that's not, it's never work, baby. I've had day jobs. I had 22 of them before I became a stand up giving. They all sucked.
- [91:09]
Ed Mylett
Yeah, that's not a job.
- [91:11]
Christina P.
This ain't work, man.
- [91:12]
Ed Mylett
That's how I feel.
- [91:13]
Christina P.
Yeah.
- [91:14]
Ed Mylett
Today is all about friends. We're going to talk about how to be a better friend. Why friendships matter so deeply. I have the woman here that's going to help you with it. My guest today is Dr. Marissa Franco. She is currently a New York Times best selling author of the new book called how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends. She's also got a PhD in counseling psychology. She's been an expert on different programs including Good Morning America and now on the Ed mylett show. So, Dr. Franco, great to have have you here. Welcome.
- [91:44]
F
Thank you so much for having me.
- [91:46]
Ed Mylett
Happy to be here. So what about your work? Because you say how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends. So what is the science of attachment? I want to get to the root of this before we leave. What is the science of attachment? And in your words, before we leave and take as much time as you want, how does that help us make and keep friends? The science of attachment.
- [92:10]
John Kim
Yeah.
- [92:11]
F
So as I sort of sifted through the research on friendship, what I found was that our personalities are fundamentally a reflection of our experiences of connection or disconnection. Whether I am open, warm, trusting, cynical, all of these things are predicted by whether I've had healthy connection in the past. But not only that, if I've had that healthy connection, I cultivate enough of traits that contribute to me continuing to connect. Right. And that is if I am securely attached. I have had those healthy relationships. I begin to display these healthy behaviors that allow me to continue to attach to other people. Insecurely attached people they haven't had. Oh, did you want to ask me a question?
- [92:54]
Ed Mylett
No, I'm profoundly agreeing with you right now. Keep going, please.
- [92:58]
F
Yes. Insecurely attached people, they haven't had healthy connections in the past. They carry around this unconscious Template for connection. Either that everybody is going to abandon me or sort of betray me and this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. They look out, for instance, where this is true. They do not register instances that are counter to this assumption. And it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy too. Ed. Because if I think you're going to abandon me when the situation is ambiguous, you might be hangry. For example, I think you're rejecting me, I reject you, I become cold and withdrawn and then you reject me because you feel rejected by me. Right. And so if we don't understand our own attachment, which is really our internal template for how people are treating us, which then affects our own behaviors in our relationships, we will continue to think the world is just cruel. People just reject me, people can't be trusted. And if we understand our own attachment, we can be empowered to think there are behaviors I can change so that I can foster deeper connections with others.
- [94:01]
Ed Mylett
I love you. This is exactly why. No, this is exactly the question I asked you earlier where I think we agree, but we word it differently. You're so flipping right. So my main male relationship was with my dad. And my dad was a drinker when I was young and wouldn't show up. And I started to build these belief systems. You're talking about that idea that hey, maybe you shouldn't have people around you that are different than you until you're ready because you haven't had these healthy other relationships. You were using the example with you earlier and you're very right about it. Because when I had male relationships in my life, I thought, well, they're all going to lie to me, they're all going to eventually leave, they're all going to screw me over, they're all going to do this or that because of the one relationship I had with the most important male that had happened. And I had to really learn in my relationships not to project that pattern and dynamic into my new friendships. And early in my life. You're so right. Early in my life I lost a lot of friendships because I would jump to the conclusion that that was happening because it looked like what used to look like. And so I'd go, oh, they're doing it. They lied right there. They're like my dad. Well, no, they're a human and they fibbed a little bit and they're still a really good person who loves me. It doesn't mean all these other things are going to happen. And so that's why your work matters so much, because you're exactly right about that. And it's worth going back the last three minutes there and evaluating what Dr. Franco just said, because we do do that in our patterns, in our relationships. We do sort of project into them that way. And I totally agree with that. And that's why I was nodding. I certainly wasn't trying to jump in and interrupt you there, because I think that was gold. So I think you are, too. I think your work. I just want to tell you thank you for doing the work you do.
- [95:39]
Thais Gibson
This is the Ed Milan Show.