← THE ED MYLETT SHOW
THE ED MYLETT SHOW
How To Give Yourself Permission to Live Before It's Too Late with Dr Guy Winch
00:59:46
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This is the Ed Milan Show.
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Welcome back to the show, you guys. Today is going to be really special and the reason it is is in my heart I've wanted to do a podcast and an episode about this topic and here's what I'm going to call the topic Guys. Stress. How to deal with stress. How to deal with what what I would call like work addiction almost. And it's prevalent in our culture, particularly in the Western world. And, and frankly maybe I've even contributed to it a little bit. I certainly know I've lived it. And we're going to talk today about how this has sort of taken place and strategies just to live a better life in very stressful times with work, with someone who's immensely qualified. Here's how qualified he is. Number one, he's his books have been translated into like 30 different languages. His TED talks have 35 million plus views, actually 40 million almost by the time we're doing it. He hosts the Dear Therapist podcast, but he's got a book that I just devoured and it's right here, mind over grind. And I like best the subtitle how to break free when work hijacks your life. So how do we find that nuance in our lives? I don't know that I'd call it balance. He does, but we're have a beautiful conversation. You're going to learn a lot about. They'll be very thought provoking with Guy Winch. Welcome to the show, brother.
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A
Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure to be here.
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B
He's a PhD guy, so he's smarter than me. I'll try to hang in there as we go through everything today. So hey brother, let's start out. I'm going to tell you, I just watched this new show at the time of recording it. It's out just brand new right now. It's called Madison. It's got Kurt Russell in it, and it's a Taylor Sheridan show. I think it's Taylor's best work. And I told Taylor that it was. So there's this scene to start the show. It sets the stage for this podcast. So Kurt Russell's sitting on a porch in a rocking chair with his brother, and he's an achiever from New York, where you're recording right now. And he's out, and it's like Idaho or Montana, and he's fly fishing with his brother, but they're on this porch and he's reflecting on life. And I'll paraphrase, but he basically tells his brother about this exotic vacation he was just on. And he said, and I. He said, I'm 65. And the character was. And we were the youngest people there by 10 or 20 years. And he said, I looked out on the beach and there's these people that have waited their whole lives, worked their whole lives for this time, this moment in their life where finally they're going to enjoy their life. And they arrive there physically incapable of doing so. Essentially, the stress in their life, all the work, all the years mounted. They finally get on that proverbial beach of life, and they can't even enjoy it physically. They can barely walk. They can't ride a sea doo. They can't get in the water and swim. And I thought, my gosh, is that what we're doing in the world today? So why don't you start out? Where did this develop? And, like, why is it getting worse in your mind as stress? Addiction to work?
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A
First of all, that's a great scene because I really think that happens. That's what people do. They keep pushing off life. They keep, like, grinding and working hard and let me just invest now, let me just push more and let me just sacrifice more of my life now so I can achieve and reach things. So at some vague, unclear time in the future, I'll be able to enjoy the fruits of my labor. Currently, there's this mindset that we have. We also have it when it comes to overworking. I'll just do it now. You know, like, I talk to a lot of founders just. Just until we get that first round of funding. And I'm like, yeah, what. What about the second round? You know, the third round? We always kick the can down the road. And keep pushing ourselves. It's part of the work culture we're in now. And it's really problematic because what happens when you do that when you're so singularly focused on your work on. And again, you might really love what you do. You might be enjoying it theoretically. What you don't pay ATT when that focus is so singular is what you're actually sacrificing, is what the price is that you're paying for that dedication. And you tend to find out only when it hits you sideways on the head and really kind of rocks your world or when you're 85 and you're on the beach finally and you're too non ambulatory to enjoy it.
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It's so true. You know, I'm a product of that. I mean, most of my fans and friends that watch the show know, like I. I had to take a long break physically. I had some health stuff that came up. I. I haven't really posted on social media and my main feed in a couple years because of some physical stuff. And I have a hard time because I know Guy and I know you do too. I know there's seasons of life where you have to sacrifice things and trade certain things for results you want. And I'm actually okay with that. If someone says, look, I know this next year is going to be a grind in my own opinion, what I find is what you said. And in my own life, I never defined the finish line. I never defined when the can stops getting kicked. It's not after the first round of funding that's usually a lie. It's not when you get to six figures for most people. It's not when they get to seven figures. It's so is part of it. You said we could kind of go stuff that's not in the book. Do you think part of the advice should be like, clearly define what your end zone is at least so that when you get there you do make some type of an adjustment. And I know we should be adjusting as we go, which is what the work's about. We're going to talk about that in a minute. But what about like just determining where the end zone is, at least for you and adhering to it. Do you think that's. I never did. I mean, it's just like, well, you know, once my house is paid off or once this. But I never got really clear where I was going to give myself. Makes me emotional, like permission to live, you know. Do you think part of it should be having some definition of that? Before we get into the, the day to day tactics.
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But I don't want to call it the end zone because that's the thing that, that makes people go like, but they're not at the end yet. And let's not call it the end zone, let's call it the 10 yard line. If we're going to go with that metaphor. In other words, you know, like first down, can we do that?
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There we go.
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You know, I mean that would be more reasonable. And what I would like people to actually define is when I talk about work, life, what does the life part mean to them? People always say to me like, yeah, I added an hour of yoga. And I'm like, well bravo. But that's not life, that's an hour you added. What's life mean to you? Because to me life should mean the work life balance is that when you come home and you're, you know, doing the kids homework with them or putting them to bed or hanging out and having a date night with your partner, that you're actually present enough to be able to enjoy it, that you're actually non stressed enough that that feels like an important thing to do. Because time passes so quickly. It's the mundane stuff that we're missing out on because we're so checked out. We're obsessed with work, we're ruminating, we're preoccupied. So for me, living life is first be present in the regular stuff. You know, you come home in the evening, A lot of people come home in the evening. You know, people say, who don't have families, they're so exhausted that they just veg out for three or four hours because they, you know, believe, oh, I'm too tired. But that's mental fatigue, it's not physical fatigue. They're not physically tired. They sat at a desk all day or something, you know, so it's like figure out what life means to you. What are the things that matter to you in the non work part of your life. Figure that out and make sure that's happening first. It's so basic. But let's start with basic, by the way.
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Very good. You're right about the end zone. I appreciate that. Correction, you're completely right about that because it, you know, I, I, the book spoke to me because I think to some extent I was reading about my life and what he just said about being present. You know, I have to tell you guys also that chapter three hit me the blitz about these intrusive thoughts. And you know, I, I'll be candid with my Friends that have listened to me for a long time. You know, oftentimes my wife will say, remember when Bella did this, when she was three or two or Max did that? And a lot of the time the honest answer, even though I was there, is no, I don't remember. So I. My body was there, but I was so fatigued mentally and emotionally, or so distracted that although my body was there, I don't have any recollection of those events, many of them in my life. And so the good thing about the book that I love is you define the problem very well, but you also give solutions. And so chapter three is the Blitz, and it talks about these intrusive thoughts. Can you discuss that process and give us some key to being able to turn it off when we are at home? These intrusive thoughts?
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Yeah, when we have a very stressful day, a difficult day, we had a, you know, a very difficult client. Something didn't go well. There was a confrontation with a coworker. Our boss kind of like shot us down in a meeting and embarrassed us. There was some kind of political situation at work that we know really upset us or some kind of incivility of somebody just being rude to us. What's likely to happen is that you're going to, you know, you're like busy all day. You're going to get home and start to process that. And when you're home and. Or when you're finished working from home. And the problem is that if you don't pay attention, the way you're going to process it most likely is really in a very ineffective and unhealthy way in the form of rumination. Rumination means to chew over. It's just like replaying the upsetting thing. Just churning. Being on this emotional hamster wheel that doesn't actually get you anywhere. For example, one of the ways people do that, something upsetting happens. They come home and rehearse in their head. And it could be for hours, by the way, for hours, this fantasy argument with the person that they will never have.
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True.
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You know, how are we going to tell off their boss? And I'm going to tell them this, and I wish I could say that. And they, like, spend hours. Now that a is completely unproductive. What are you figuring out? Nothing. Here's what you are doing. You're flooding your system with cortisol. You're stressing yourself out. You are also activating all the upsetting feelings you had when this thing happened. If you felt embarrassed or you felt angry or you felt Resentful, you felt frustrated. By reliving it and re churning it, you're reactivating all those feelings. So you're actually taking the upsetting thing that happened over five minutes at work and then supersizing it for three hours, you know, in the evening, where by the way, of course you're going to be checked out. No matter what's going on around you, you'll be there in body, but not in mind, not in actual presence. And so people don't distinguish when they're actually self reflecting in these ways in ways that are harmful to them or ways that are productive to them. Let me define productive productive ways of. Now, look, it's important to process the things that are upsetting us. I'm not saying we shouldn't. But to do it productively is to have a point, to be able to have a takeaway, to be able to learn a lesson from it, to be able to have an action plan from it, to do so. Here's the exercise people need to do. When you catch yourself ruminating and upsetting yourself by like replaying the same events over and over again, or thinking of all the other times your boss did the thing that upset you, and now it's two hours of the greatest hits that are upsetting. When you catch yourself doing that, pause, label it as rumination and ask yourself this. Say to yourself, what is the problem I need to figure out here? And there can be many different, right? It can be like, do I need to have a conversation with my boss? Do I need to figure out why my boss jumped down my throat in the meeting? What did I do that might have triggered them that I can avoid doing in the future? Do I need to have this conversation with this co worker who I kind of think is a little bit scheming against me? Do I need to avoid the person like whatever the question is, turn it into a question that needs to be answered and resolved? Because then you actually figures, then you're actually figuring something out, then you're actually trying to come away with an action plan. Then it's about, all right, if I need to talk to this co worker, then you work backwards. What's my goal of that conversation? It's not just event, again, don't do something that's not thought through. Thought through means, what's the outcome I'm seeking? Then once you know that, work backwards, what's the best way to achieve that specific outcome? That kind of thought process is structured. It's organized around posing question, finding answers to the question coming up that will allow your brain to let go of the upsetting thing because you figured it out. When you're just spinning and churning, your brain will hold onto it and keep. That's the blitz of the reminders that'll keep coming into you because it's not figured out. It's still an active, open issue.
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B
Wow. It's like an open tab on a computer.
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A
Yeah. Yeah.
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By the way, thank you. That was great for me, you guys. In my office, I have it that's hidden a little bit here. But in my office, I have these. This list of the. The five wishes of people as they were dying, as they were old, as they reflect back on their life. And the first one is they wish they would have stayed in contact with their friends more. The second one is they wish in their life they would have expressed how they truly felt. These are the thoughts and wishes of dying people at the end of their life. Third, they wish they would have lived their life on their own terms.
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4.
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Let myself be happy. I wish I would have let myself be happy. Isn't that interesting? Just let yourself be happy. And you know what 5 is? I wish I worked less. And these are even people who loved what they did. That is not an excuse for a massive addiction to something. Is finally what I discovered, because I love this. I love speaking, I love building companies. And I used to think that was justification for this addiction. But even though it might have even been a healthy addiction to some extent, it still was costing me things over the years. Physically, emotionally, mentally, in my relationships with people. And so how do you distinguish between. Because these ruminating thoughts. You have it in the book, so I know the answer. But how do you distinguish between something like this, arguing with your boss that's. Or a thing at work that's a threat, as opposed to something that's a challenge? This is right out of the book, you guys. This is awesome stuff right here.
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A
So it's really interesting because when we have a goal before us, if we think how we think of that challenge, how we think of that situation, the mindset we have as we approach it makes a critical difference to how we will perform in that situation. When we have to go and have a confrontation with our boss, say, in some. In some way, whether we perceive that as a threat, like something like ish, I hope this is going to go well. I'm not sure, you know, that feels like a threat versus whether we see that as a challenge. You know what I mean? Rehearsed for this. I have prepared for this. I've thought this through. I know my boss. I know exactly the kind of thing I need to say to make my point. I've got this.
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A
month subscription, different mindsets for the same conversation you're about to have. In the challenge mindset, you are relying on your resources, you are relying on your preparation. You feel good about it. You are heading in there to win something, you are heading in there to crush something. That mindset is extremely positive. It will allow you to avail yourself of your resources to do your best. That the opposite mindset, the one about, I hope this goes well, but I'm not sure. The hesitancy, the doubt, it makes a difference in just remarkable ways in our brain chemistry, you know, literally physiologically, how our body responds. And you will go in and you will not do well because that hesitancy, that doubt, that questioning, that not being sure, the going in to not lose as opposed to going in to win is the same thing kind of semantically, but it's vastly different. And so anytime we have a challenge in the workplace or in life, in sports, because there's a sports psychology theory essentially, then we really need to attend to our mindset. We need to prepare, we need to feel in control, we need to feel that we have the resources. We need to feel that we can actually win, as opposed to hope we can but worry that at least let's not lose. That nuance of mindset makes a critical difference. And in the workplace, especially when you're doing things that are anxiety provoking, like giving presentations or having a difficult conversation or doing things that have high stakes, that mindset is really critical.
- [20:09]
B
When Max sent you to me brother, my son, who's the producer, said, hey, dad, I think this is something we should talk about. Be honest with you. Part of me was conflicted, and let me tell you why. I know a lot of the people that follow me on this show want to do something great in their life, right? They want to be great. They want to be the goat at what they do. And I know that requires an unusual level of commitment and dedication and, frankly, focus. And I used to think anything that violates what I just said, there is like the other side of personal development. Drink your wheat grass, put your fingers together, meditate 19 hours a day. There's like these two camps, right? And over the years, I've come to believe that some of the things you teach in this book, I could have been better at work. I could have been more productive. I could have been more creative. I could have been in the right side of my brain more often with more energy to my work, had I actually. In other words, it's not a choice of A or B. There is some self care in our lives that you talk about in this book that'll actually make you a better machine that you think you want to be. One of the things you talk about. Man, I wish I would have read this book 30 years ago. Right. I, by the way, everyone, I think I'd have been wealthier. I think I'd have been more successful. I know I'd be healthier and I know I'd have deeper relationships. I don't think these things would have cost me success. I think they would have been additive. Is micro breaks. And you talk about it in the book. You got to tell them, I know they got to get the book. There's so much in the book. You guys, trust me, you're going to get the book no matter what we cover today. But can you talk about micro breaks for a second? This is a strategy and an idea. I've not heard anybody talk about any of the books I've read.
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So, yeah, I just want to preface something and just. I highlight what you said there about my approach because I think it's really important. I, first of all, I talk about myself in the book. I pretty much made every mistake I talk about in the book because, yeah, I'm an ambitious person and I tend to overwork and I tend to say yes to a lot of things. Things. And I tend to get excited.
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B
You're intense.
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A
Yeah. And, and, and I, you know, so, so I'm subject to all the, you know, all those slippery slopes that I talk about. And my goal is like, yes, you can, you can, you can strive, you can want to succeed and you can succeed and you can achieve and you can do it in a smart enough way that you're actually doing better there and still living your life well outside of work. So it's really about having both. It's not about one over the other. It's not about I don't work so hard, have a better life. It's about do better in both. And they're highly related. And micro breaks is a great example when we have very demanding days. There are many days that I used to have, and I'm sure this is true of you and of many, many people where you wake up in the morning, you know what's ahead of you for the day, for the week, and you go, gotta get through this week. This, this day. I just got to get through it. Because it's that much, you know. And when we have that mindset, unfortunately, what we tend to do is put our head down and we go from task to task to task to task, from thing to thing to thing to thing. It kind of mindlessly we do it on autopilot. And when that happens, there are all kinds of problems with it. Number one, we will start to fade just in terms of our mental abilities, our creativity, our decision making, our thinking, our attention to detail, all our executive functioning will start to decline seriously throughout the day because we're just grinding. We're just like going from one thing to the other. We can't sustain that for many hours without it compromising those abilities significantly. And it's kind of like misery or just like kind of let me just, let me just tolerate this, let me just get through it now. What we should be doing instead, and it's a very simple thing. It's when we have demanding days, when we have demanding weeks, is to take and it truly takes 5, 10 minutes, 5, 10 minutes before the start of the day, before the start of the week and be much more intentional about. Let me look at this day. Where do I take my breaks? What kind of breaks can I take that will actually refresh me, recharge me, reinvigorate me throughout the day? And in the book I talk about the research that looks at Micro breaks from 2 minutes to 5 minutes to 15 minute power naps, to all kinds of things that we can do. Because if you're not actually being thoughtful about it, you will do what most of us do. You'll get on your phone, you'll look at social media, you'll do the kind which is fine, except it's not refreshing, it's not going to do anything for you. You'll game, you'll do stuff that will just not do anything to actually recharge you and actually refresh you. And you can actually choose to do and curate and be intentional about, oh, this is a three hour obnoxious meeting. I'm going to actually schedule a call with somebody I really care about so I can vent about it later or just get a feeling of loving this or loving that or, you know, Wednesday is the hump day and it's such a long day and I'm by the. What I'm going to do is I'm going to take 15 minutes there and I'm going to, you know, prepare my favorite lunch and I'm going to like look forward to that lunch. I don't do it a lot. But you know what? Wednesday's a day where I deserve. Let me squeeze 20 minutes here to go outside and sit in nature, to just relax because that will recharge me. I have two minutes between these difficult meetings. You know what I should do? I've been sitting all day up and down some stairs, some push ups, some. Something physical to get my blood pumping. You need to be thoughtful. And if you do that, you will accomplish more during a day. Your work product will be better, all your skill sets will be sharpened. And so it's actually advantages you. It just requires you to disconnect the autopilot and be more intentional and deliberate about. Take charge of your day, be the manager for yourself and. And do that.
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B
That's extraordinary what he just said. You guys just. And I know my team's in the studio right now kind of smirking because I'm in the middle right now as we're doing this of one of those days. And you know what I just did, thanks to you? Half hour before this, I took a micro break. I did. I had some. This bowl of soup that I love. Just a kind of like a comforting bowl of soup, right? And then you know what I did? I closed my eyes for about 10 minutes. I actually was a little bit judicious in scheduling. I asked my team, can you please give me a half hour somewhere in there in the middle. I'll do the eight meetings. All right, I got it. It's that day, right? I got the four podcasts or whatever it is, but just schedule some micro breaks in there for me. And I'm bringing, you know, my a energy to this. And by the way, enjoying it, it's not just like, oh, I'll. Because it's a metaphor for life, isn't it, Guy? Like, like, okay, I'm just gonna get through this, then I'll enjoy myself. My day, my week, my month. Okay? I'm gonna get through this stage of my life. I'm gonna get through the next 10 years. That's not how you're supposed to do it. And I did it that way. Right? And so much so. This is why the book's so good. I keep selling the book. I don't think I ever learned how to even take a vacation. And I'd like you to talk about it because it's in the book, right? And so I don't think I took one. I mean, I did physically take my body, like to Cabo for two or three days. And probably the first day I had too much tequila or something, right? But like beyond that, I was still ruminating, I was still an email, I was still thinking. And then like the day before, I'm going back, I'M all, I. I gotta get ready mentally. So I'm back in that mode. And then I look at it. I'm like, I flew all the way to this place, ready all this stuff, like, maybe for like three hours of. And even then, I'm pretty sure my mind was still cranking away. Can you help us learn to unplug and vacation or what the. Metaphorically even.
- [28:04]
A
But look, I just want to mention something that's actually not in the book about me. And I was just. I mean, I was just like you. I said, ed, I just made so many of these mistakes, but one of them for me was I wouldn't pause to celebrate anything because I was setting the next goal. Why am I pausing here? I got my undergraduate degree, didn't go to the graduation, didn't celebrate that at all. Master's degree, didn't go to the graduation, didn't celebrate it at all. It's when I got my PhD, which is the last degree you can get. And I was going, about to skip. About to skip the ceremony when my brother was like, you're out of degrees. Maybe. Maybe go to one, celebrate one, you know, like, for goodness sakes, this is the last one, you know? So, I mean, I totally get that vacations are tricky because what we do with vacations is we, like, we work really, really hard to get ahead beforehand so we can clear our desk, whatever. Then we get, and this was me up until recently, get to the vacation. I'm so hyped up. I'm so in work mode. It's three days for me to unwind enough to be able to actually relax. Then I only have three days left, if that. And I would. And it was terrible. I was wasting all these vacations, like, because when you're that wound up, like, you can't stroll through a new city, you're like, you're so goal oriented. You're like, let's get to the place. I need to see the place. You know? And it's like, that's not the best mindset for a vacation. So I learned that you actually have to relax before you go on vacation. You have to start down throttling before you leave. The few days before I go to the. Before I leave on vacation, I try and clear the evenings to have a relaxed evening. I pack ahead of time. I don't try and get ahead at work. I don't try to work till the last minute. I try and literally go from fifth gear to fourth gear to third gear on that last day at work. I. I'm kind of just really coasting a little bit. And it's amazing when I do that. I hit the ground on the vacation in vacation ready mindset. And the first time that happened to me, I was like, oh, my God, I'm relaxed and I just arrived. That's amazing. I'm going to get so much more value out of this vacation, you know. And then it turns out there's a whole science behind, you know. So I end the book with a chapter about the science of vacations. Because there's a lot of different things you can do to maximize the value of vacations you do take. But that was the major thing. Don't get there with your tongue hanging out.
- [30:44]
B
So let me ask you this. So someone's listening to us, and I think maybe they're going, well, I'm not that extreme like these two weirdos are. I do celebrate once in a while and I take a break or two here and there, and I think sometimes we go. I don't have a problem compared to them. So how does somebody know if they've got this issue that we're describing, that they're a little, you know, addicted over, overstressed, overworked? How do you know if you're suffering from an ailment that maybe you've been carrying with you forever? So it seems normal.
- [31:18]
A
Look, especially when it comes to overworking. The thing about overworking is that it's a vague definition. I mean, the, the research definition is over 55 to 60 hours a week. But when I say that to most people, they're like, I do 55 hours last Tuesday, you know, like, what are you talking about? You know, so it's like, you know, it seems like, ah, you know, that that's nothing. I mean, I'm a founder, of course I work like that. But it's not about how many hours you're putting in. It's about how much you are neglecting your life outside of work. One of the questions, you know, I, I have clients that mostly, you know, founders, those kinds of things that, you know, CEOs. One of the questions I ask all of them, unfortunately, and I was always a little embarrassed to ask this, but now I feel like I need to, is because these are very senior, established people, is like, when was the last time you saw a doctor? When was the last time, Adam, CEO, you saw a gynecologist? And I have to ask it because, like, six, seven times out of 10, what I get back is some kind of blinking because, you know, yeah, I put up the annual Physical, because it's half a day. Who has the time for that, that kind of thing? It's very, very common that if you have a difficult day at work, you're going to come home and there's going to be conflict at home because it's going to be very difficult to undo the tension with a snap of the fingers when you walk through the door or when you finish, when you close your laptop at home. It's like we don't go from, you know, being completely charged up and, and on alert to completely calm. The modern day workplace, for many people it doesn't have to be extreme, is the modern day battlefield. Their tensions, their conflicts. There's all these competitiveness, you know, especially if you care about what you do, then you're involved, you're engaged, it matters. The stakes are high and your body responds by putting you in fight or flight. Your body responds by activating you and keeping you activated throughout the day. And then when you get home, it doesn't. It's just difficult to unwind on a dime. It takes us a while. And until we do, if we do, because many of us actually never do when we get home, we're still all wired up, but even if we do, meanwhile our partners, our kids, our families, our friends are picking up on that tension. There's studies that show that if you are really stressed out, somebody is really stressed out out, and at work, their partner, their partner will lose he or her sex drive. In other words, that's how much this crosses over. We think we kind of keep it to ourselves, but these things have an impact because again, we, we are not able to just kind of, you know, flip a switch and turn ourselves off and be present. Like we have to be much more thoughtful. And there's certain techniques we need to use to do it. So when people say, oh no, this doesn't apply to me, I'm like, you know, ask a family if it doesn't apply to you.
- [34:25]
B
By the way, what a great. I, I'm not any longer, but I would have been afraid almost to ask that question because I know the answer. Even just you posing the, the idea of asking that question, you know what they're gonna say. Have you noticed your sheets slipping off the corners lately? Or maybe your pillows just don't feel supportive like they used to. You want to get a better night's sleep and be healthier, replace your bedding. That's why I upgraded our bed with Bolen Branch. They make everything your bed needs, their signature organic sheets, pillows, blankets and comforters are all designed to be breathable, incredibly soft and they actually get better over time. Bowl and branch bedding, from their organic cotton sheets to their breathable pillows and comforters, is made with the ultra clean materials that are gentle on skin and free from harsh chemicals. Their fabrics are breathable, soft and temp regulating so you're not overheating or tossing or turning too much much. So upgrade your sleep with bowl and branch get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at bowlandbranch.com mylet with code mylet that's bowl and branch B O L L a n d branch.com mylet code mylett to unlock 15% off exclusions apply. You know one of the things that frustrates me? Bank fees and banking fees. As the son of a guy who worked in a bank for a long time, that stuff frustrates me and that's why I love Chime. Chime is changing the way people bank. They offer the most rewarding fee free banking. This is fee free banking built for you. They're not like traditional old banks that charge you overdraft and monthly fees. They have thousands of free ATMs. Why would you pay to get your own money? You're not switching banks, you're upgrading to America's number one choice for banking. I got to tell you something, the younger me would have benefited from this so dramatically when I was worried about overdraft in bank fees and currently I could tell you I'd benefit from it right now as well. I'm really excited about them. Chime's not just smarter banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank join the millions who are already banking fee free today. Head to chime.com mylet that is chime.com mylet it only takes a few minutes to sign up and you'll be glad you did. Chime is a fintech not a bank. Banking services for MyPay and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Optional products and services may have fees or charges. So I want to ask you about self care which I'm proud of myself for even bringing my self as a man to saying that word those words. Now I'll explain to you why at an epiphany about 10 years ago I was golfing with a friend of mine and since you do this for a living, I'll be in therapy here with you for a minute. So spoiled with a friend of mine. I'm going to tell everybody even who it was because he's passed away and he was a wonderful man. His name was Lou Welsh. Lou was a wonderful man. He founded LA Fitness gyms.
- [37:10]
A
Oh, wow.
- [37:11]
B
Very successful man. But I loved Lou because when I would look at him, I admired how kindly he treated people, how it easy seen with himself, what a wonderful family life that at least I observed that I thought he had. We were golfing one day, which I thought I was relaxing, right, because I was golfing, and we played about nine holes. And he goes, what, Ed, what are you doing? I go, I'm golfing with my buddies, including you, Lou. He goes, no, you're not. You are not. You're on your phone in between every shot, you're looking at your phone in between every shot, you're retrieving emails, you haven't smiled once. He goes, ed, this is no way to live, because at least when you're relaxing, relax. And I said, you know, Lou, I don't know if I know how to do that. And he said, oh, that's bullshit, you know, of course you do. And he said, ed, you don't care for yourself. And I went, what do you mean? And he goes, well, he goes, I think you treat yourself like you're your own personal slave. You've been living with you for 40 years. Look how poorly you treat yourself. Would you do that to anybody else? The way you treat you, the stress you put you under, the pressure, you're under the work, the rumination. In your mind, we're standing there, this kind man. He goes, you treat yourself like he said. And he goes, my only conclusion is you want to die young and you don't like yourself. And it woke me up. And he goes, would you just start to care for Ed, for all of us, please? And so I say that for all of you that I know are like me, what are some forms of self care, strategically, that you would recommend somebody try to begin to implement who doesn't know anything about this?
- [39:01]
A
First of all, let me just say about your friend, that's a friend, right? That is a friend to, like, tell you bluntly, dude, wake up. Yes, that's. That's. I define that as a true friend. Anyway.
- [39:15]
B
I agree.
- [39:15]
A
I. I wanted to just comment on what you said earlier. Self care for men. Well, I also used to cringe at the term because I used to think, does that mean like a manicure and people putting cucumbers on my eyes or something? I don't, I don't want that to happen. And that's. That's not what self care care means. Here's how I define it. To me, self care means to give oxygen to those aspects of my personality and my identity that do not get stage time during the workday to do those activities that really access different parts of my brain because I just don't access them during the weekday, during the workday to be in touch with friends who, for me, for example, you know, I can be super goofy with and super silly with or super irreverent with because I can't do that that much during the workday. You know, to play literally to, to find ways of joy and, and there are certain things, I mean I, I, I like to think myself as a mature person, but with the wicked childish streak I have it. What, what are you going to say? So I, I can, I can, I could, you know, I can be pretty base, you know, at certain times and I enjoy it and that's fun. And I don't, I never used to, I think I talk about this in the book, but after 9 11, being a therapist here in psychologist here in New York, after 9 11, that was heavy for a while and I realized, wow, I need to do something drastic to add to lighten my day. And I started doing stand up comedy after hours after I finished work. And I did it for like three or four years quite seriously. And I never spoke about being a psychologist on stage. I had a completely different Persona. I mean it was still me, but a different life, you know, because I didn't have a career. And it allowed me, it gave me the freedom to say the, you know, the rudest things, the bluest things, you know, like as I used to say, like yeah, I, you know, finish, close up my office and go and tell dick jokes to strangers and you know, drunk strangers in a basement bar. You know, that's what I was doing at the beginning and, and it just was like, it felt so refreshing. It just was a different me, you know, that I didn't get. You know, it was a part of me, but I never, and then when I stopped, I stopped, but I brought a lot of that back into my work. I didn't think there was room for humor in my work. And then I was like, no, there has to be because that's too important for me. It's too much a part of me. And so to me that's what self care means. It means really nourishing those parts of yourself that don't get nourished during the workday.
- [42:01]
B
Bro, you're extraordinary. No, I mean it, I gotta tell you, the highest form of self care that I Give me is surrounding myself with my wackiest friends, which my personal friends that make me laugh so hard. It's the most alive I am, other than when I'm with my family is when I'm with these men and women, many of which have been on the show. And then I have to tell you something because I know they're freaking out in the studio. Last week I told these guys, I said, you guys, I think I should try stand up. Of all the things you could have said, bro. Because I'm a public speaker, I speak on stages all over the world and people do laugh at my stuff, but that's different. Walking into an underground comedy club in New York and they just tackled the dude before you. And I think I know why. And I think for you, and I just wanted to say this, I think another way of, another form of self care is finding other forms of expression of your being.
- [42:59]
A
Yes.
- [42:59]
B
Whether that be the guitar or the piano or running or yoga or it's, it's. Those are forms of expression. Competing in a sport, doing a triathlon, whatever it might be. Some of my happiest, most alive friends have found forms of expression. Yeah. Outside of work. So. Good guy. How do you know? Hard one. It's in the book. So I know your answer, but I want you to talk about it. How do you know when you've sort of OD'd and you need to leave something?
- [43:26]
A
A job, you mean? Yeah, we need to. Look, first of all, what I suggest in the book is like, you know that because part of what you might be doing is over grinding unnecessarily first try and you know, do the mind of a grind thing first try and unwind that and so that you're not too stressed out, you're not too burnt out and, and then see what you're left with.
- [43:48]
B
With.
- [43:48]
A
Because, you know, I start the book with my experience of being burnt out after one year in my career. One year and I was already I ready felt like I've been doing it for 40, you know, so I was burnt out and I thought I didn't like what I did anymore. But when I was recovered from the burnout, then I reconnected to my, you know, joy and my, and my passion for what I do. So you're not that objective when you're really burnt out. You're not that objective when you're exhausted all the time. You're not that objective when you're in the wrong mental space and over grinding, overworking. First give yourself some, some, some grace and some mercy and then see how you feel about, about the place. You know, first try and, and fix, you know, the, the headspace and then, and then see how you feel. But if you do feel that you need to leave, you need to do it really, really thoughtfully. And you should definitely not do it impulsively, especially in today's workplace. It's a harsh workplace. You need to consider where you are in your career. You need to consider what the options are. You need to consider what the qual. I work with a lot of people in finance, and some, some of them will say to me, like, I just, I just feel like I can be doing so much more and I want to find a different job. And I say to them, in some cases, like, dude, you're in finance. You're in finance. You make this many millions of dollars a year, and every time I talk to you, you're coming out of the pool at your club or you just finished a brunch. You have like, the best hours. Like, you know, there are not that many eyes on you. You're living your best life. You might trade up, but you might find that you are losing a lot in the trade and a lot of freedom. And you know, like, because of that, you know, like, what is the quality of life that you have at work? That quality of life, which is about the hours and it's about the people. You know, the people matter a ton. Those are the people you are. That's your work tribe. You're going to spend the vast majority of your awaking hours with them, more than. More so than with your family. If you are among good people, be very thoughtful about whether you want to leave that because you don't know the people you're going to end up with. Maybe they'll be good, maybe they won't. And that quality of life delta might not be worth whatever the delta in comp is for you or title or whatever the thing is.
- [46:01]
B
Interesting advice. What great advice. Makes me think as you're talking, I'm reflecting on something I've taught. Maybe I should teach more. But. But you really do. You get the life you focus on. So if at work you're focusing on things you don't like, but there's these beautiful human beings there. If you started to focus a little bit more on that, maybe you have a different sense of it. I think my overriding challenge with the grind culture, so to speak, is that it causes focus to be so narrow on the climb. And I wonder what you think about this. And I've Been saying it lately and I'm not even sure I completely believe it, but I want your opinion about it. There's stages of life, right, like for all of us. And you know, there's a trade off for climbing the ladder, proverbial ladder of life to where to grow up like I did, you know, when I was really young on welfare and then we were middle class, but I wanted to climb in my life to where my family was financially free. It was a priority to me and I got there and then that wasn't enough and then I had to keep climbing. And no one said to me, you know, Ed, it's some, every rung, but at some point there is a trade for that rung. You're trading something for that rung and it's okay if at some point in your life you decide what you'd have to give up to grab that next rung is no longer worth grabbing it. And you haven't lost who you are in that process. I just think we've been perpetually conditioned to a never ending climb to a place that is so undefined that it becomes almost habitual with no reasoning behind it. Do you agree with that? Yes.
- [47:53]
A
And I think a lot of people, first of all, there's this comparison culture, right? Like, you know, yeah, I've worked with so many people over the years that like, my first 10 million and I'll be good. And then they get their first 10 million and they're like, yeah, but the people I'm around now have 50, so I, you know, I need to, you know, aim for that, it just doesn't end. You can always compare yourself, you know, to more. The thing is, what we get addicted to is not just the climb, but the feeling of achievement and accomplishment. And that's real because when you set a goal and it's a multi year goal and it's a, you know, it's a long, long term goal and you reach it, it is very satisfying. Now what the research tells us though is the primarily satisfying part is the journey actually reaching it tends to be short lived and anticlimactic. In other words, when you do it and you've finally achieved it and it's celebratory for a little time and then there's this huge now what? That kind of comes over you that makes you want to like, well now let me set another goal. Because otherwise what am I doing now? Like where you know that that whole purpose has gone for me. And the thing is, you don't have to set another goal. That's the next rung on the ladder. You don't have to do that. You can find other things in your life that will give you purpose and find other goals in your life. And it could be about family, and it could be about friends, and it could be about individual accomplishment. You know, it. It could be about personal accomplishment. In terms of sports, maybe you want to set out to do a marathon and you want to improve your time on that, or maybe you want know, like, find purpose and meaning in other ways. That's the thing that people really crave that, you know, once they. They're used to doing that. But it doesn't have to be in the same lane. It doesn't have to be just more of this. You can have a qualitative shift. And, okay, now I will kind of hover where I am, because that's good. But let me set my sights now, you know, on something else. And I work with a lot of people who are very, very successful at work, and then they retire, and if they don't have a plan, they get depressed. And if they're not depressed, when they then turn all those energies and all that, you know, all that drive into something, you know, less intense but meaningful, and then they go after that, and then they have a great life.
- [50:10]
B
You're so right. I have a really good friend, Scotty D. You owned a bunch of transmission shops, and he. He's one of my friends who gets it. He. He exited, and he could have then tripled down again on another one. He goes, you know what, man? I. I'm gonna move to Montana with my family. And then he got there, and I was worried about him. I'm like, well, what's his purpose? What's he gonna do? You know, this is a. This is a. You know. You know, he's one of these guys, a machine. He's a hunter. He's an achiever, right? And it wasn't work he poured himself into. He, like, became unbelievable to guitar and especially his face. Faith, his faith life and his work in his church. And those things are a form of. I think it's just finding ways to still express yourself. I always say I'm addicted to the expansion of my being, and I feel like that's a healthy one. But I'm not addicted to only achieving it through my vocation, Right. I'm open to the ideas of a different way. So let me. I guess we're gonna run out of time. And I. I don't know that. I've done a podcast a long time that's flown by this quickly because I'm really enjoying you and, and the topic and the nuances of it. But I want to ask you if someone came to you right now, and this is a hard question. No one ever asks these questions anymore, but I'm going to ask it. Mental health in general, do you find in your work that there is a difference in the causality and the suffering of men and women? Is it different in our culture now? Meaning are. Do you see a certain propensity in men and a certain propensity in women that may be slightly different as it comes to this grind culture? Or are humans humans in general, and are these generalities dangerous to get into, or do you actually truthfully see a difference between the two? And if so, what are they?
- [52:01]
A
Look, my problem with generalities is that they're generalities. And so they only apply to a specific, you know, like, like rough, mean in the middle. And they don't apply to almost as many people as they do apply to. That's my general problem with generalities. But just to. If people will forgive my generalizing about what I'm about to say, there are some differences between men and women. It. I am not in any way suggesting that one group has more challenges than the other. They have different challenges, right? How challenging and how upsetting and how, you know, problematic those challenges are, you know, is subjective. But men have specific challenges that women often don't, and women have specific challenges that men often don't. Women are disadvantaged in the workplace, for example. You know, there are studies that show that if, you know, a man does a certain amount of work and creates a certain work product in a certain amount of time, and a woman creates the exact same work production in less time than the man did, I. E. She's more efficient, she's more competent, she will be judged less favorably because the man put in the hours. She was, you know, she was kind of. And same work product, you know. So women face tons and tons of biases in the workplace. They have a lot of challenges in that way that are totally unfair. It's a bigger hill to climb, you know, in. In so many ways. Men have their own set of challenges. For men, the burden of, of. Of how they're socialized. And the idea that they have to own this idea of supporting, of creating, of being a man means producing, means providing. It's a big burden. There's a whole. And don't complain because that also goes with the thing. Just show up, do it, and shut up. No one wants to Hear if it's difficult, just show up. And so men have a much harder time then being able to talk about the difficulties. And if you have trouble talking about the difficulties, you can't really deal well with the difficulties. And they have, you know, mental health struggles because they're actually not paying attention, addressing or feeling that it's legit to even talk about them or address them. So I'm, I'm just giving examples. But. But they're different challenges, you know, that. That men and women face. But. But they are very challenging in each group and beyond me to assess like, you know, which ultimately is worse because I just think it's the, the. There's some real hardships on both sides.
- [54:29]
B
And you know, why I'm asking you. He's one of the podcasts that he hosts, a visibility gap, and it goes into a lot on men's mental health. And that's why I asked the question specifically. Everybody has context, right? Why I ask this. And I do know I coach men and women about equally. And in fact, the audience of this show may actually now be 60, 40 women.
- [54:48]
A
Amazing.
- [54:49]
B
It seems to be evolving. But I do see a burden in men in our culture that concerns me, which is their measurement in these last few decades of their manliness is of almost financial status or career status or job status. And the pressure on some of these guys concerns me. And I'm sure that affects women as well that have different pressures, but it concerns me. Okay, so last question. I want, you know, I've enjoyed this tremendously and I want everybody to go get mind over grind because we've covered 10. We haven't even covered 10 of the book. Go get his book. Someone listened to the show today. They said, man, I enjoyed you. I heard you on the Ed, my let show. Great strategies. Thank you for speaking my life. I feel like they were looking in a mirror. A lot of people, man, I wish Ed asked one more question. Which could he get one more strategy or tactic or daily habit out of you that I could put into my practice of my life. I wish there was that one more question. So I'm asking it for him. They get the one more question, something we didn't cover today that you would say, hey, this habit, this practice, this ritual, ritual, this behavior on a daily, weekly or monthly basis, whatever it would be, would really serve you in, in eradicating some of this addiction to grind and stress would be what?
- [56:11]
A
Okay, I can. I can say 10. Here's. I'm going to say one which is. Which is a general one you need to create. And by you, I mean listeners and me and everyone. You, you need to create a ritual to transition your mindset from work to personal life to life after work, the evening, supposedly, you know, whatever that is for you because again, you are on high alert, you're in fight or flight during the day, you're charged up, you're activated, you need to come down. And that's difficult for our brain. What our brain does do well is it learns, well, sequences of events because then it anticipates what's coming next. So if you have a ritual that you do every day on your commute home or when you get home, or before you leave the office to help you transition your mindset from the mindset of the work battlefield to the home life, that will help your brain. That ritual should include repetitive steps and as many of the senses as possible. So create a playlist or have specific songs that you listen to that help you calm down or prepare you for, you know, the family time, if that's it, or for friend time, if that's it. For romantic, if that's it. You know, listen to music. Music is very, very evocative. Change clothes at the end of the workday. Our clothes are very embodied. There's a reason power suits are called power suits and leisure wear is called leisure wear though. The, the purpose of them is literally to make us feel powerful or relaxed etc. And now some people say to me, I work from home, I'm in jeans and a T shirt and like, terrific. Have jeans and T shirts that you wear when you're working and very different jeans and T shirts that you wear when you're not. And change clothes, your brain will learn to associate those clothes. I feel this way in those clothes. I feel that way in. So change clothes if you, if you work from home. A lot of people, you know, when they're working from home, they have a workstation at home and so they're seeing it all the time and it's reminding them of work all the time. Shut the laptop off, cover it, put a plant on it. If there's a big computer screen, give some kind of fabric cover for it so it doesn't look like that. Put the paperwork in some kind of box somewhere, like make it look different, shift the lighting, you know what I mean? Open a window, make it look like a different space. If you don't, if you're working from home and you don't have the, the physical separation between work and home, create a separation, psychological one and you can and it's very, very effective. But if you have a transition ritual that you enact every day. I do. I have, you know, I don't know if people can see, you know, people who can see the video. There's a door behind me. I'm in my home office. I close the door at the end of the day, I tell myself, now the evening begins. That's how. And it's the same message. Now the evening begins. It's like a, you know, it's like a. Like a flag to like, off we go to the races. Except the races are, you know, our life. And. And I literally am very intentional about shifting my mindset, taking a deep breath, you know, really kind of like. And then I kind of define what my goal for the evening is. And again, it's life. It can be. And I'm gonna. We're gonna watch that show and, and see a few more episodes of the show or I'm gonna see this friend or have dinner here. I just remind myself that that is a goal too. That that too is something that I need to be focused on. The life part, whatever it is.
- [59:33]
B
Brother, you're extraordinary. I mean, this. Like, guys, just introduce what he just said. You know, it's interesting. We're really intentional about our work life. We're just like, oh, and then I'll just turn it off. And then my relaxed family life will just miraculously happen. Happen, right? And especially for those of you that work at home, this distinction is difficult. So I just want to tell you, just to validate his work, because I knew it. I switch off out of my jeans or whatever I'm wearing, or my suit for the day, no matter where I am. And kind of sweatpants are my home gear, right? Like that shells tells my brain we've shifted. And then my little daily ritual just to give it to all of you, that also serves me is when I have to switch into family mode. I just call my mom. It's a five minute conversation. I call my mom. I've been doing everything I'm doing today. Call my mom for five minutes. And all of a sudden my mom doesn't care about work. Hi, honey. How are the kids? Are you taking care of yourself? How do you feel? And that moment, I just need five plus, I've now called my mom. I'm now in family mode. It's almost like my trigger or anger to tell my brain, we've switched modes now. And that's thanks to you guys. So. So this was so good, brother. Thank you so much.
- [60:41]
A
I mean, thank you so much.
- [60:42]
B
This conversation is needed. And this is why my show exists. Gosh darn it, that was good. All right, go get his book, you guys. That was Guy Winch. And by the way, he also has a podcast, Dear Therapist, that don't listen to before you listen to mine, but listen to it afterwards. All right, you guys. God bless you. Max out your life.
- [61:11]
A
This is the Eddie Milan Show.