How to Deal with Difficult People Without Losing Yourself

Summary

THE ED MYLETT SHOW
Episode: How to Deal with Difficult People Without Losing Yourself
Date: May 30, 2026

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Overview

In this wide-ranging and deeply practical episode, Ed Mylett tackles one of life’s most pressing challenges: dealing with difficult people—angry, passive-aggressive, emotionally immature—without sacrificing your emotional health or integrity. Ed is joined by communication experts Jefferson Fisher, Chuck Wisner, Charles Duhigg, and special guest Emmanuel Acho, to break down real-world techniques for handling conflict, improving conversations, staying calm, and preserving your authentic self in tough interactions, whether at home, work, or in society.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding Emotional Immaturity and Emotional “Homes”

• Ed Mylett opens with the metaphor of a toxic “house” to represent emotionally turbulent environments certain people create ([02:00]–[09:00]).
• Everyone has an “emotional home”—a set of default emotions they return to (joy, anger, anxiety, etc).
  • “If you love somebody but their emotional home is anger, fear, anxiety, depression… You have chosen to live in that home with this person for the rest of your life.” (Ed, [09:00])
• Immature people are experts at pulling others into their negative home; emotional maturity means refusing the invitation to join them in their turmoil.
• Key Insight: “A truly emotionally mature person does not allow another human to pull them into their pit of anger, hurt, and angst.” (Ed, [09:28])

2. Evaluating Your Own Emotional Maturity

• Ask: How easily can others provoke strong negative emotions within you? How often do you “race to the bottom” by escalating conflict instead of diffusing it? ([12:30]–[18:00])
• Emotional and spiritual maturity means choosing your responses intentionally, not reflexively.
• “Strength is resisting the desire to hurt them back. It’s not a sign of strength to be more angry or mean or threatening—it’s a sign of fear and immaturity.” (Ed, [16:00])
• Decide: Will you keep entering the toxic house, or move out?

3. Practical Tools for Disengaging from Toxic Dynamics

• When someone gets loud, you get quiet. When they’re mean, you respond with kindness ([20:10]–[22:45]).
• Adopt the stance of, “I choose not to visit that emotional home.” (observer mode)
• Empathy for the hurt driving the other’s anger, but hold your boundaries.
• Two choices: Don’t enter into the escalation (“don’t go into the house”), or create actual distance from the relationship.

Notable Quote:

“You don’t win by getting more angry, more reckless, and more out of control with somebody. That’s a race to the bottom—and the loser is you.”
(Ed, [13:10])

4. Recognizing Patterns: “Inflammation” People

• People who blame others, seek external validation, warp reality, avoid hard truths/feedback, and choose what’s easy are usually trapped in immaturity.
• These individuals stir up “emotional inflammation” in those around them ([28:00]–[34:00]).
• Key evaluator: “What is their emotional home…do you really want to live in that house?” (Ed, [33:45])

5. Examples from Everyday Life

• Ed shares travel stories of political rage, illustrating how people become consumed with anger over things they can’t control ([44:25]–[47:40]).
• “If this was the last 30 minutes of your life, you certainly were pretty dad gum out of control and immature.” (Ed, [47:20])
• Caution against “kitchen sinking” in marriage/family (expanding one small disagreement to attack everything).

6. Tools from Communication Experts

A. Jefferson Fisher ([37:52]–[50:00])

• On “Pecking Orders” and Dominant People: Don’t try to outcompete dominate types in conversation; simply don’t be pushed over (“water off a duck’s back”—“Okay, noted”).
• Insecurity is loud, confidence is calm: “Confidence is very quiet. The real top dog is the person that’s the most quiet.” (Fisher, [39:40])
• When facing passive aggression or subtle put-downs:
  • Ask: “Should I read into that?” or “Sounds like there’s more to that.”
  • For overt rudeness: “Did you mean for that to sound rude?” Gives space for them to clarify or correct, diffusing escalation ([44:50]).
• If you’re misunderstood, use: “What did you hear?” Then respond with “I can see how you’d feel that way.”

B. Chuck Wisner ([51:55]–[61:16])

• Four types of conversations: Storytelling, collaboration, creative, commitment. Recognizing which one you’re having guides your approach ([57:30]).
• The essential art is asking questions instead of making statements or judgments.
  • “If we realize my opinion is just my opinion, and it’s not the truth, then we can slowly say, okay, what’s driving my opinion?” (Wisner, [53:06])

C. Charles Duhigg ([62:27]–[68:19])

• Difficult conversations require “looping for understanding”—summarize what you heard and repeat it back.
• In conflict, don’t try to control the other person; instead, control together:
  • The environment (timing), yourselves (pause before answering), and the boundaries of the argument (“let’s only discuss this topic now”).
• Avoid “kitchen sinking” where small disagreements metastasize into attacking entire personalities ([66:05]).
• “You and I are partners now in controlling the right things in this fight instead of trying to control each other.” (Duhigg, [66:43])

D. Emmanuel Acho ([69:15]–[74:06])

• Changing your mind isn’t betraying your tribe, as long as it respects your own integrity and intellect.
• Key question when arguing: “What is your intention?” If someone seeks to “gotcha” or “dunk on you,” disengage.
• “There is a lot of peer pressure to maintaining ignorance, but how can I maintain ignorance?... Once you know better, do better.” (Acho, [71:00])

7. The Art & Power of Listening (Ed’s Masterclass) ([79:00]–[100:45])

• Key Techniques:
  • Be present; make eye contact, show responsive body language, and let people finish their thoughts.
  • Ask clarifying and follow-up questions—don’t just wait for your own turn to talk.
  • Repeat back what you heard to confirm understanding (“So what I’m hearing is…”).
  • Use post-conversation acknowledgements (“Thank you for sharing…”, “That was amazing…”).
• Listening builds rapport, influence, and connection; it’s more powerful than perfect talking.
• “People don’t respond to what they see or hear—they respond to how they feel when they interact with you.” (Ed, [79:35])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ed Mylett: “A truly emotionally mature person does not allow another human to pull them into their pit of anger, hurt, and angst.” ([09:28])
• Jefferson Fisher: “Insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet.” ([39:40])
• Chuck Wisner: “If we realize that my opinion is just my opinion and it’s not the truth, then we can… say, okay, what’s driving my opinion?” ([53:06])
• Charles Duhigg: “You and I are partners… in controlling the right things in this fight instead of trying to control each other.” ([66:43])
• Emmanuel Acho: “Maintaining an ignorant opinion is to disrespect your own intellect… Once you know better, do better.” ([71:00])
• Ed Mylett (on listening): “Being a great listener is easier than being a great talker… People’s favorite topic is themselves.” ([79:35])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:00] Ed’s “toxic house” analogy; emotional homes
• [12:30] Signs of emotional immaturity; racing to the bottom
• [20:10] Techniques for resisting escalation
• [28:00] Checklist: “Inflammation” people and patterns
• [37:52]–[50:00] Jefferson Fisher: phrases, equality in dialogue
• [51:55]–[61:16] Chuck Wisner: asking questions, conversations’ types
• [62:27]–[68:19] Charles Duhigg: conflict resolution tools
• [69:15]–[74:06] Emmanuel Acho: group pressure, conversation exit points, “what is your intention?”
• [79:00]–[100:45] Ed’s in-depth guide to listening

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Summary: Actionable Steps & Takeaways

• Recognize your own emotional triggers and refuse the invitation to escalate with difficult people.
• Stay calm and observe, rather than compete for dominance or validation in conversations.
• Use simple, grace-giving phrases to clarify intent (“Did you mean…?” “Should I read into that?”).
• Approach all tough conversations with curiosity, not judgment—ask questions, don’t make pronouncements.
• When conflict arises, focus together on what you can control (timing, boundaries)—not controlling the other person.
• Disengage from arguments when the other’s intent is to win/gotcha, not to learn or reconcile.
• Master the art of listening: be present, ask clarifying and follow-up questions, summarize, and acknowledge.

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Bottom Line:

Staying true to yourself when dealing with difficult, emotional, or toxic people relies less on “winning” and more on choosing how you engage, communicate, and listen. Emotional maturity and advanced communication skills (calm, empathy, clarity, and boundaries) allow you not just to survive interactions with difficult people, but to elevate them, protect your peace, and sometimes even change the conversation entirely.

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Transcript

[A]

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This spring, give yourself the kind of comfort that lives with you all day. Head to cozyearth.com and use my code mylet for an exclusive 20% off. And if you see a post purchase survey mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here on the Ed Mylett Show. Cozy Earth comfort lives here Here Expedia and visit Scotland invite you to come. Step into centuries of history that await in Scotland. Castles steeped in legend walk along cobblestone streets. Come share the warmth of stories passed down through generations. This is a place with a past that is fully present today and all yours to explore. Plan your Scottish escape [e-mail] VisitScotland. This is the Ed Mylett Show. Hey everyone. Welcome to my weekend special. I hope you enjoy the show. Be sure to follow the Ed Mylett show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. Now on with the show. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. So I'm really excited about this week's episode. As you know, I don't post very often on social media anymore, but if you're not following me on Instagram, make sure you go ahead and do that. I did make a post a few weeks ago on my Instagram story about emotional maturity and how to deal with people that, for lack of a better term, get you all wound up. They get you angry or hurt or they just create angst in your life. You probably have somebody like that in your life. They push your buttons and maybe that person's very close to you, maybe really close to you. And so we're going to talk about that today. You know, life is supposed to be a joyous experience, at least most of the time. And you got to really evaluate your emotional maturity and how you deal with people that are emotionally immature, which I believe is a sign of weakness in people. Hurt people, angry people. And we're going to talk about this today. Let me ask you a question. If you and I met or you met the person in your life who you wanted to spend the rest of your life with, let's just say. But they said, well, here's the thing, we got to live in my house. And you go, okay, all right. They said, let me just tell you about my house. My house regularly. There's snakes all over it. You got to avoid them. There's a fire that pops up in a room randomly every couple weeks. So there's fire in this house all the time. It rains in there. It gets really hot some days and other days it gets freezing cold. Sometimes it feels like you're in an earthquake. The whole house is shaken. You think it's going to come down all around you. Then there's other times in this house where it's like a tornado blows through it. You don't know where it came from, but it's just. It just hits the house and wrecks it. And we're going to live in that house the rest of our lives. So I know you love me, but you need to know the house we're going to live in. And it gets worse than that from time to time. You don't even know what's going on. You can't read it at all. There's no detection. And out of the blue, another storm hits. Another fire hits, another snake pops up. Then you walk into the wrong room and there's lions and tigers and bears that just attack you. And so it's coming from all angles. A lot of the time would you rethink that relationship or whether you wanted to live in that house? Maybe you love the person, but you said the house part. That part I'm not buying into. Maybe it wasn't even a significant other one. It was just a great friend who said, when you come visit me, you know, you won't know when, but when you come to my house, this is what takes place there. You probably rethink that friendship, wouldn't you? You would not accept those terms in a long term relationship or in a friendship. Yet we do this all the time with the People around us. Let me say something to you. A truly emotionally mature person does not allow another human to pull them into their pit of anger, hurt and angst. But people do it all the time. I want you to evaluate whether you're emotionally mature. I only know this is true because I've allowed this to happen to me far too many times where how somebody else acts pulls me into their pit of anger, fear, angst. Then you find yourself with these people. Because by the way, people, humans have an emotional home, don't they? I've talked about this in my book, the Power of One More. You have an emotional home, as does every human being you meet. Your default emotion is bliss, joy, ecstasy, passion, peace, laughter. If you're in those emotions most of the time, there'll be times when you're not at home and you visit other places and you will feel anger or fear or sadness or scarcity. But everyone has an emotional home. And if you love somebody but their emotional home, in other words, the home they're going to have you live in with them because you live in that home with them, is anger, fear, anxiety, depression, frustration, angst, scarcity. You know what I'm talking about. You've chosen to live in that home with this person for the rest of your life. And an emotionally immature person allows. When someone goes to their home of anger, angst and frustration, they go there with them and they try to win a conversation. You ever be in a conversation with somebody where they get angry so you get angrier, they put you down so you come back with something about them, they bring up something from your past, so you bring up two things from their past, and it ends up being this emotional immaturity pit that you end up in. You know exactly what I'm talking about. That is no way to live your life. Yet so many times in our life, these people, this stimulus, if we're emotionally immature, we go there with them, with this immature person, and we end up being more immature than they are. And so if the quality of your life is in fact the quality of your emotions, this may be one of the most important episodes you ever listened to. I want you to begin to think about yourself and evaluate yourself in terms of your emotional maturity. I know I'm doing this as I speak to you, remember? I only know this because I've allowed this to happen to me far too many times myself. So you got to evaluate two things a your own responses when these people begin to behave this way, which is more often than not, isn't it for some People and B, their proximity to you and whether you really would live in that house if you knew that was the house. If even if you like or love them. Because here's the truth. You choose your response, your reaction, or the lack thereof. You don't win by getting more angry, more reckless and more out of control with somebody. That's a race to the bottom and the loser is you. And so when you're dealing with somebody who on a regular basis, they've pit up anger, they're passive aggressive with you, they're a victim, they start generating these emotions and you find yourself trying to win. I can be more angry, I can put you down more. And you think, well, no, I'm standing up for myself. No, you're not. You're being emotionally immature. With a very emotionally immature person in your midst, being more angry, mean or threatening is not a sign of strength. It's a sign of fear and immaturity. A strong person, when someone is emotionally immature, somehow finds a way to stay in peace, to stay in bliss, to stay composed, to stay in God. Strength is resisting the desire to hurt them back. I really want to talk about this for a second because, you know, I know that when I was an emotionally immature person, and I still can be, when someone would become angry with me, I would try to win that conversation to be more angry. If they hurt me, I wanted to hurt them back. But ask yourself a question. Is that mature? Is that good for your own emotional health? Is that good for your own well being? Is that good for your own inflammation? These people inflame us. Literally, they inflame us. And so I want you to evaluate something. I already know by the way. You're thinking about that person who does it, aren't you? You got that person, you're thinking about their face, their name. They may be somebody you're married to, that you date, maybe a good friend of yours, maybe a parent, maybe a sibling. If you're emotionally mature, when they get angry, you don't go there. You rise above, you disconnect. You become an observer of what's taking place. When they get loud, you get quiet. When they get mean, you get kind. When they get hurtful, you get loving. And these are a choice. These are choices that we make in our life. You're choosing to get angry with them. You're choosing to, to race them to the bottom of the emotional game. Nobody wins when you do it. Nobody feels better after. You know what it else is? It's spiritual immaturity. What if you would begin to act as God would want you to, not the enemy. Here's what I think. If you believe in that, which I do, the enemy is the one going. Now you get more angry. Now you put them down again. Now you bring up something from the past. Now you get immature. Now you be the victim. Now you retaliate. Now you be passive aggressive. And all of a sudden you're in this out of control spiral. And you got to ask yourself, how many minutes of your life do you want to spend in this spiral of emotional immaturity? How much time do you want to live in your emotional home of angst, anger, frustration, sadness, anxiety? You know what I mean? Like, you get wound up about stuff in life, but what if you decided to start to act as God would want you to? What if you began to surrender, winning the argument with this poor person? I've started to feel empathy for people in my life who are around me, friends or otherwise, who begin to behave in this way. And you get into patterns in your relationships with people that are so unhealthy, so dangerous. This could be at work. Maybe it's somebody at work that pushes your buttons. You know what I'm talking about, right? You are best to rise above, disengage and act as God would want you to. If you believe in this, and I also believe in this, you stay at a high vibrational frequency. When they start to go low, when they start to reduce the frequency of all these negative things and emotions and put downs or whatever they do to you, you stay in the high emotional frequency. By the way, nothing, nothing will frustrate them more than you doing that. Nothing frustrates an angry person more than when you come back with kindness. They're trying to pull you into this race to the bottom. And by the way, if they're naturally a little bit more of an angry or sad or victimized person than you are, they're better at it than you. Don't even try. They are professionals at being a victim. They are professionals at being sad, they are professionals at anxiety, they are professionals at retaliation, they are professionals at anger. And you, you dabble in it when you go into their house, stay in your house. You choose your emotions. The quality of your life is the quality of your emotions. And too many of you are spending too many minutes and seconds of your life in emotions that you don't want to be in because you're emotionally immature. Still, if another human being can control you that easily, you need to look at you. This is your choice. I'm speaking to myself. By the way. Okay, but you need to look at you. This is not about them. They are clearly who they are. They are clearly in their emotional home. In fact, just for a second, when I say somebody who lives in an emotional home of being sad or a victim or angry or there's somebody who takes a superior position and puts you down and tries to minimize you, any of those things. Who'd you just think of? Who'd you just think of? Work, family, friends. Okay? That's their home. You stay in yours. Okay? And when you begin to go into theirs, you lack maturity. It's a sign of spiritual immaturity, by the way, if you still get an adrenaline rush out of retaliation. You know, when you go back and forth with them and kind of get an adrenaline rush, ask yourself why that is. You know, reason I put the podcast out today about this is I'm traveling a lot, and I'm flying commercial when I fly now, as a choice. And I just watch humans. We're so mean to each other. We're so harsh. We're so dismissive. It's rare to meet a kind person. It's rare to meet someone who's generous, who cares. It's not out to get it, you know? And I. I'd like to just make a speck of sand in the beach of life by pushing back against that for a second and resisting it. You know, you don't have to be that way. You ever be on an airplane and watch when they say group two boarding, and humans just rush and elbow people out of. It's just unbelievable. Or how they don't make eye contact when someone serves them. Or the arguments people get into. And these are strangers. Never mind. You're having some of these same arguments with the person you say you love, who says they love you, who's your sibling, who's your parent, who's your girlfriend or boyfriend? At some point, you have to ask yourself, do I really want to live in this house the rest of my life? And you have two choices. A, don't ever go into that house with them again, ever. You don't get more angry. You don't race them to the bottom. You don't put them down more, or B, leave the house altogether. You only have so many minutes in your life. I think you were born to spend most of those minutes in bliss, most of those minutes in peace. And you know what sucks about having someone in your life like that? They will give you a few moments of bliss. You will get a few moments of peace. You will get A few moments of ecstasy and joy and. And these same people that are so incredible are getting to create tremendous hurt and angst and disappointment. By contrast, they're typically the people that are best at giving us pleasure and joy and bliss. And so in these fleeting little 5 or 10% of the moments that it's great some of us have chosen, I'll take the 80 or 90% of the time that's not so good for these spikes of adrenaline I get when they're kind or nice. What's crazy though, is they're not any more kind or nice. It's the contrast because they most of the time aren't. And so in the few moments when they are, you're so grateful, it's almost like you're groveling for the kind them, the nice them, the at peace them, the not depress them, the one that's not angry, the one that's not superior, putting us down. That's no way to live. That's not mature, that's not grown up. You were born to be in that environment. You weren't born to behave like that. And then they pull out this part of you that when you're done, you got an adrenaline rush and you're like, I don't feel better about myself after behaving like that. Yuck. I need to take a shower for how I talked or thought. So please evaluate this. Here's some powerful questions. Is this choice and this behavior I'm now making with this person when I race them to the bottom, moving me closer to God or further away in my faith as a Christian, is it closer to God or further away? If you happen to not be a Christian, is it higher frequency or lower frequency? And also, is this really making you closer to your other goals? You think getting into these fits of anger or frustration are getting you closer to your other goals, are making you a better human, are making you wealthier, are making you more productive, are helping you be more clear thinking are contributing to your energy, are reducing the inflammation in your body and giving you more strength and power. Are you crazy? This is all kryptonite to Superman or Superwoman. Emotional intelligence involves understanding and managing your own emotions and recognizing those of others. How it impacts relationships, how it impacts communication and overall well being. One thing to become is become an observer. When this person begins to spiral and they show up as the angry them or the victim them, or the frustrated them, or the sad them, or the woe is me them or the put you down them or the gossip them, get away from it above it and observe it. Get quiet, get still. 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Optional products and services may have fees or charges. A real key of mental weakness is the avoidance of discomfort. Mentally weak people avoid doing hard things. And let me tell you something, not only is this person mentally weak, but the hard thing to do is to resist getting angry with them is to resist putting them back down is to play their game. That's the hard thing to do. So if you give into that every time, does that make you mentally weak or mentally strong? I would submit it makes me mentally weak when I do it. You are also mentally weak when you can't avoid doing the thing that you know is the most harmful. Now, by the way, mentally weak people avoid the avoidance of discomfort physically. They avoid it in exercise. They avoid it in emotional discomfort oftentimes. But more importantly, they refuse to have difficult conversations. See, at some point, once the emotions go away, you need to be able to step back with that person when they've calmed down and you've helped them calm down and say, this is not acceptable. I will not live like this. I won't join you in this home you live in. And I have empathy for the fact that you live in this home, but you're not pulling me in it anymore. This is not how I speak to people. It's not how I treat people, and it's certainly not how I'm going to be spoken to or treated. This is unacceptable. You do that after the emotions have calmed down. How do you know you're with somebody who might be emotionally weak or spiritually weak? They're a victim. Most of the time. Everyone's out to get them. Listen to their language. Are they a victim? Number two thing, I think they avoid doing difficult things, as I've said. Number three, they are unable to take feedback. Everything that is said to them as feedback is felt as criticism. They defend and defend and deflect. They defend and defend and defend. And then what happens is now you get mad and start doubling down and making it worse than it is with them. They're unable to take feedback. They also will do one thing where you say, well, can you please not do? They'll flip it back on you, but what about you? And they'll change the lens and put the camera on you to take it off of them. Who are these people really? They're God's children. Also, they're sad and scared people. Some of them appear on the outside very big and strong. They're scared. The flip side of anger is fear. People that try to make people feel sad are sad. We all know that hurt people end up hurting people. But remember this. What if you could not only rise above and not participate, but as you observe them, you almost actually, you do feel empathy, as God would. This is no way to live. This is no way to behave. People who put other people down or gossip hate themselves. Did you know that? When they're putting you down or someone Else are gossiping another person. That is a form of self hatred. People who truly love themselves have no room in their heart, their mind or their spirit to put down other people. It's just not something that would come out of them. When you live in an emotional home of peace and love, you can't act out that way. But when you live in an emotional home of angst, fear, anger, lack, scarcity, low self esteem, you act out in these ways. These folks are not comfortable in peace. They've become too familiar with stress and tension. They are inflammation. Literally by definition, these folks are inflammation in your life. We always say that in our bodies. Really, disease doesn't exist. All the new data tells us the number one thing in a body that's the worst thing you can have for disease and the future early death is inflammation in your body. Everything from cancer to heart disease, to aches and pains, inflammation. You want to rid the body of inflammation. Well, these people, when they behave this way, they try to inflame you and you automatically begin to play their game and you become inflamed. And by the way, you become emotionally inflamed. When you're emotionally inflamed, your body becomes inflamed. And so these folks are inflammation. You need to rid it from your life. You do not participate in it. These folks, number one, they blame others. Number two, they look for external validation constantly. Let me say that to you. Number one, they blame other people. Nothing's their fault, Everything's a victim, everything's coming at them. They blame others. Number two, they are always looking for external validation constantly. Listen to their language. So and so said this about me today. So and so said this. So and so said that when they walk into, they're looking, they give you their resume. They got to look a certain way. They got to tell you their background, they got to tell about their car. They're something they get validation for. I was smart, I was this in high school. They're looking for validation. Number three, they don't tell you the truth. Do you have anybody in your life that blames others? Evaluate this. Do you have anybody in your life that looks for external? You have that friend, by the way, who's constantly looking for validation from other people instead of from God, instead of from internally. Do you have that boyfriend or girlfriend, husband or wife, boss, person at work? They look for external validation constantly. Third thing, they don't tell the truth. They don't tell the truth. They pervert and warp reality to make it bend their worldview. And then they don't tell the truth. Number four, they choose what's easy over what's right. How do you know this? It's easy to get angry. It's easy to blame. It's easy to put people down. It's easy not to go to the gym. It's easy. So somewhere in their life, they choose the easy over what's right. What's right is to treat the people you love with kindness. What's right? Right is to be gentle and to protect strangers that you don't know. What's right is to stand up for people who are hurt, not to put people down and make them hurt. So they choose what's the easy thing. It's hard to stand up and say, don't do that. And to protect people. It's hard to keep your emotions under control when someone is spinning out of control when they're hurting you, not to hurt them back when they're angry, not to get the angry back. And number five, they're a victim. The victim mentality. Let me ask you a question. What's the emotional home that they live in most of the time? And do you really want to live in that house? Because you don't have to. Either A, you change the way you interact with them, which helps change them, or B, you move out of that house, you get distance from that house. You deserve to live a life of emotional bliss and peace and abundance. The majority of the time, life's about duality. It's about contrast. We would never know how beautiful it is to be warm if we've never been cold, right? It's okay that there's some duality in our life. There are moments of sadness, there are moments of anger, there are moments of frustration. But they should be moments not the norm in our lives. You know, the other element of emotional immaturity is getting wound up and worked up beyond what is a. A normal response to things out of your control. And I want to address this last. Here's a form of emotional maturity going absolutely crazy over something like world politics. This last weekend I got picked up in the car. Great guy in the Uber picks me up. We say hello. And immediately he went into politics. He hates Trump. F. Trump. This so and so support. I mean, it was out of control. He was yelling, talking to me about my gay brother. I don't really want to talk, yelling, you know, these, you know what I'm talking about, like, worked. I mean, so crazy worked up about a human being he's never met that he probably never will meet. And out of something mainly out of his control. I'm not suggesting you don't have opinions. I'm not suggesting you don't stand for things I'm not supposed to. You don't get in line in March or stand up or hold a sign or state your opinion or post. But you know what I mean. Where things out of your control get you so worked up emotionally that you're crazy, that you have become dominated this this entire ride. I'm a nice guy in the back seat. He probably could have learned a few things from me or about me. I always try to learn things about the person I'm with, learn from them. He spent that entire ride in anger all over the place. I mean, it was. I felt. I got out of the car, I felt empathy. Now, I could have got angry back and said something about a point he said that didn't make sense, or I could have agreed with one and joined him in his ear. Yeah, you're right about the tariffs. I'm like, my gosh, you. If this was the last 30 minutes of your life, you certainly were pretty dad gum. Out of control and immature. You know exactly what I'm talking about. He's like, I had to block my family on Facebook because they like him. And I said, you've blocked your family. Yeah, we don't get together anymore over you guys arguing. What? Are you serious? This is your blood, like your mom. Really? You don't talk to your mom because she has a different opinion than you about someone neither one of you have ever met before and never will meet. Wow. I just got out of the car. I felt such empathy. I was proud that I didn't join him in his anger about it or refute it and get more angry with him to prove him wrong. That would have been a race to the bottom. Huh? What if I disagreed with everything he said? So now we're back and forth angry. More angry. Put him down. Put that down. Well, what about Biden? What about this? I could have gone back the other way. That would have been a pleasant drive. Great way to spend 30 minutes of my life, right? Or joined him in his anger. You're right. Can you imagine that this has become normalized in our culture, in our society? It's what most of you listen to every day. You just feed yourself more of it. How's your heart feel? How's your spirit feel? How's your inflammation? I'm not saying don't listen to be informed. I'm not saying don't stand up. I'm not even Saying, don't scream from the rooftops about issues that matter to you. But are you serious? This is an all consuming reality TV show that you're not in, but you think you are. Literally got from the car, got to the airport, got on the airplane. I'm not kidding you. And now I sat next to somebody who loved Trump, but that wasn't the conversation. Hates liberals, hates them. Said words that I won't even repeat about Biden and who they back. And these, they're for the party of the blah, blah, blahs and the blah, blah, blahs. And anger, man, anger wound up, by the way. They both think they're complete experts. They had anger, angst, frustration, put downs, really divisive language the Trump hater had, and unbelievably divisive language the Biden kind of liberal hater guy had. And then I'm like, well, wait a minute, I'm gonna sit next to this one for three hours. I've just had 30 minutes with the other guy on the other side. I ain't doing this. So at some point, I literally said, I touched his arm. I said, brother, I could tell you're really passionate about this. I just want you to know I am not spending the next three hours and these emotions with you. You seem like a great guy, man. Seem like a great guy. I love your passion for what you're doing. I'm gonna put my headphones on, I'm gonna listen to some great music, and if this was the last three hours of my life, I ain't spending it this way. I'm completely clear on your opinion. I could read everything you just said on the Internet, by the way. Same thing with the other guy. And what we do in our life is then we surround ourselves with people who completely validate these emotions. You're right, you're right, you're right. This dude that drove me in the Uber can't even conceive of somebody who disagrees with any of the points. And neither could the guy on the airplane. The other side, I just thought, we are one wound up culture. And by the way, one guy thought he was a victim to everything Biden did. The other guy thought he was a victim to everything Trump did. They blamed. They both look for external validation by being right about it from a stranger in me. Neither one of them had the total truth. And they're both choosing what was really easy over what was right, which might be to listen, might be to listen, might be to learn. I know some would say, hey, you got to stand for Something you got to have an opinion. Absolutely you do. And I. I believe in that. I also believe that there's an articulate, loving, kind, and actually influential way to stand for something and have an opinion, and that is not the way to do it. Behaving emotionally ridiculous in a totally immature way is not the right way to take a stand or to have an opinion or to create any difference or change. Or is that you're really not interested in creating any change. You're interested in being angry, you're interested in biting your chest. You're interested in being a victim. You're interested in angst, you're interested in stress, you're interested in getting validation for it. But if you really wanted to persuade, if you really wanted to take a stand, you would probably do it in an emotionally mature way where you'd be much more articulate, where you wouldn't put people on the defensive, where you might actually persuade somebody. And you only do that when you've connected emotionally to somebody, where there's a spiritual connection, where there's an energy that says I can trust you and like you and believe in you and that you treat me as a brother or a sister and you have my best interest in mind. That's not what I see or hear almost any of the time. And that's why I make the point that I'm making. And again, I love passion. But what I'm saying right now, even as I say it, many people would probably disagree because it's just our culture now. It's the mind virus we now live in. What did they do today? What did he do today? What's happening in the world today? And I know some of these things are very serious. They affect our pocketbooks, they affect health, they affect rights. I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about getting wound up to the point of irrationality, of it being all consuming, where it literally takes from your life and the quality of the life of the people around you and you vibrate at a lower frequency. You're further from God, you're not as productive. You don't have as much energy for the right things because you've expended it on ridiculous things. And you spend your life in these emotions. And then, by the way, you leave this planet. I know you want to make it a better one, I know you want to change it, but you're also supposed to enjoy your time here to some extent and contribute, not just say what's wrong to contribute. And so these are things I've noticed. I think emotional immaturity and spiritual immaturity is at an epidemic rate in our culture and what it contributes to overall. Ask yourself this, especially if you disagree with the last thing I said. Does that contribute to more kindness, more peace, more gentleness, more understanding, more elevated ways of living? Or has it gotten a bit extreme? Just a bit extreme? So I'm trying to keep fewer things, but I'm trying to keep better ones. Pieces that are well made and easy to wear all the time. And that's why I'm coming back to Quints. The fabrics feel about the fabrics feel elevated, the fits are thoughtful and the pricing actually makes sense. I've been getting a lot of compliments on what I've been wearing on the show and 90% of what I have on I got it. Quince Quince makes high quality everyday essentials using premium materials like 100% European linen and they're insanely soft flow knit activewear fabric, which everybody knows I love. Their men's linen pants and shirts are lightweight, breathable and comfortable. Basically the perfect layer for spring. The best part is that their prices are 50 to 60% less than similar brands. So refresh your wardrobe with quint. 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Five free travel sachets plus 10% off your order. Imahealth.com ED code ED these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration this product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. So whether it's people that create emotional immaturity in your life and you're around emotionally immature people, topics, situations, circumstances, all of it can trigger an emotionally immature person to behave in an emotionally immature way. My driver was a grown man yelling, driving me in his Uber, dropping F bombs about someone he's never met before. While I sat in the back of his car, the guy on the airplane next to me was using profanity and derogatory names for certain groups of people. That was beyond disgusting. And they're both on different sides of the aisle, both incredibly emotionally immature people. There has to be a way to elevate the conversation where it would actually be productive and mature. So whether it's world issues or whether it's personal relationships, I want to challenge you to not have a race to the bottom, race to the top. Elevate, observe, listen, communicate with dignity, kindness, generosity, and most of all, intelligence. The most intelligent you is the least wound up and the most calm, isn't she? Isn't he? Very short intermission here, folks. I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far. Don't forget to follow the show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. Now on to our next guest. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. I try to make it a practice not to have a lot of attorneys on the show. It's just sort of a rule of thumb. I'm just kidding to all my attorney listeners. But in this case, this man's work is so good, and I mean this, I sought him out. I like when I see a relatively new face on the scene that is doing work that is not like everybody else's, that it's his own. And then I believe his work can dramatically impact your life from a productivity standpoint, a peace of mind standpoint, an influence standpoint. And he's got a book out right now called the Next Conversation. Argue Less, Talk More. And I consider him, and I don't say this often, to be a communication expert. And you will see that reveal itself throughout the next hour. You are going to learn so much and take so many notes today from Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson, welcome to the show finally, brother,

[B]

and thank you so much for having me. I'm truly honored to be here. It's. It's a pinch me moment. Great to meet you.

[A]

Let's start out. His content, you guys, is so specific, is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's Actually real phraseology, real words where perhaps you are the secondary person is what I would call it. So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, friend, boss and personally supervise. But one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're always teaching you a lesson or they're in the control position. Is there a way to sort of wrestle's the wrong word, but re establish pecking order or at least equality in a commerce. You know what I mean when I say that? That you have the people that in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything. You're not. They're in charge, you're not. They're picking the restaurant you're not. Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I started with one of the hard questions first because I think more people find themselves invisible pecking order conversations than maybe they realize.

[B]

Let's split the dynamic too. Let's say it's. If it's one on one, much harder because this person has constructed their whole identity most likely to this facade. If it is. Let's say you're in a meeting and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't have to push back. You just can't be pushed over. Let's say one on one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant. Biggest thing you're going to do is just not be pushed over. Meaning you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not going to push back. Because they're looking for that threat. We call it water off a duck's back. Where anything that somebody says you can just say, okay, noted. I got it. No, if I have any questions, I'll ask. This ability to kind of be in the. In the pocket in your communication, the temptation is we want to compete with them. Oh, you just went skydiving. Oh, that's great. I just went twice. Oh, you know, Ed, it's great. Yeah, you need to. And they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop, how many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance. Let's say, let's just use the word alphas or the people that are very confident in the communication the conversation typically say much less. You've been in those meetings where the person who always has Their two cents. The person who always has something to say is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true conversation of what's happening. They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog is the person that's the most quiet. And when that person speaks, everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet.

[A]

You say that about leaders, too. It struck me where you said, actually, great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non leader. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator of a leader? Correct?

[B]

Correct. Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it, oh, who do you think you're talking to? And they need to correct and drive traffic and go, go, go. The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insecure people feel like they have to prove they have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart. Confident people know that. Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the. The best leaders have a calm energy about them when they're on the floor of whatever's happening. Instead of this erratic, you know, what's going on, okay, we need to do this. And they start shouting and getting mad and yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, okay, what do we need to do next? What's happening next? Instead of the blame, it's where are we moving forward? So driving the conversation in a way that sets authority. People are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees, supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization and same in everyday conversation. So you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor, brother.

[A]

So good. You, by the way. You exhibit that, by the way. From the minute we flipped the camera on even before we went live. There's a deliberate calmness to the way in which you listen. You actually listen calmly. It's one of the things I noticed about you instantaneously when the camera went on. Most of you don't know this because I'm an entrepreneur, but my major in college was actually broadcasting. And so it's amazing that God had this way 30 years later to create podcasts. And then I was able to take advantage of that background. But one of the Things you have to learn in broadcasting when you write your copy is to write things with fewer words because you have to deliver segments in these little bites of time. And that taught me to communicate with fewer words, saying the same thing. Other people take more words to do. And I do believe that that's an effective use. If you watch communicators, they're fewer words they use. It's almost like someone watching on broadcasting. I want to make sure everybody gets the book too, because we're going into a lot of stuff. It's the next conversation. Argue less, talk more. What if you're with somebody who. I used it earlier, but I want to go a little bit deeper. They pick on you. They kind of gnaw at you a little bit. You know, everything is almost passive aggressive in the way they say things. And you find yourself almost being put down subtly when you communicate with this person. And I find this an awful lot lately with couples that are friends of mine, married couples, there's this subtle dynamic where they both are a little bit passive aggressive with one another in the way they communicate. And I, I feel empathy for the one that I think is the one receiving most of the aggression. Is there something you can do when you feel like someone's communicating with you that way? Is there a phraseology or a. Or a strategy for that?

[B]

Let's separate into two different categories. So one, let's say is kind of this more just passive aggressive bucket. The other is, let's ramp it up to somebody being a little bit more overtly disrespectful, rude. So in this first bucket, this passive aggressive, these are people that most likely just have grown up that way. This is what they solved, mirrored conversation and arguments throughout their life, and they don't know how to express that kind of thing. So when they slide in that negative comment that, you know, there's something to that, a simple question of like, should I read into that or is there more to that?

[A]

Or.

[B]

And this goes for Chris Foss, dear friend, and I love his. His question is, sounds like you have a reason for saying that. I love that phrase. I. I also love. Sounds like there's more to that. So anytime you can just quickly ask sounds like there's more to that or ask them, should I read into that? That tends to draw out the passive aggressiveness because they're not expecting you to kind of call them to the floor. On the flip side of somebody saying more aggressive things towards you. My recommendation is begin your question with, did you mean, did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to hurt my feelings? Did you say that to offend me? When you say did, you mean it is twofold. One is giving them the grace of. Perhaps they said it in a way they did not mean, and it's going to allow them to fix it. Like, at least with me and my wife, if we're texting and something seems like it's off instead of it saying, you know, why are you being so short? What's wrong? Yeah, yeah, the question. Ask the question. Did you mean for that to sound short instantly? Almost every time. But my, you know, it is like the. Oh, no, no, no, no, sorry, I'm picking up the kids. Or I, you know, I was checking out the grocery store, getting gas. You know, you. You get that. That K or okay. And you're like, oh, okay. I guess. I guess they hate me right now. All right. Like, I guess they're in a mood, and then you naturally get in the mood, and then you respond defensively, which causes them to respond defensively. And now you're convinced. You've convinced yourself you're under attack. So it's this. This feedback loop that's kind of helpful to you. So when you begin with, did you mean It's a great way to set somebody to, one, give them that grace of fixing it. But two, it's calling attention to what they were wanting to do. Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? It is. Or did you mean for that to sound rude? Like, that is a very quick way to address it out in the open. And if they're going to double down

[A]

on it or not, will you do that? And by the way, this is so good. Will you do that in reverse if you feel that what you've said has been misinterpreted? In other words, if you feel like you're. I do this better in business than I do personal life, to be honest with you, in personal life, I think I just let everything out the window that I know that are tools, which is so stupid when it comes to business. I'm pretty good at this with friends and family. I devolve into the most emotionally immature person sometimes. But. So let's say we have gone back and forth, and maybe I've said something the other way that they're hurt by. Will you slow a conversation down, for example, and say something like, what did you hear me say? How will you handle that? If the person is now Coming back at you for something they believe you've said that's passive aggressive or demeaning or rude.

[B]

Awesome question. This happens all the time, especially in relationships. But I'd say even work too. When somebody tells you something, you've been in that situation where somebody is going to, that's not what you said. You said this. And they kind of give a voice that doesn't even sound like your voice and gives a intonation. And you're like, I didn't even say it like that. And all of a sudden now you're going, that's not what I said. I didn't say it like that. You're just pushing what you thought you conveyed. And nine times out of 10, it is inaccurate because what is said is not always what's received. So instead of this, that's not what I said, you are going to ask the question, what did you hear? What did you hear? Because now it's not about what I am putting out. I am now getting curious of what you heard, because that's what matters. Anytime you have that kind of confrontation or that miscommunication, instead of going, no, no, no, that's not what. That's not what I said. And kind of dismissing their whole experience or their perspective, by the way, it's very hard to judge. It's like making your own movie but not having an audience and going, no, no, that's not how the movie goes. It's like nobody else has seen it, only you're the one who thinks it's that way. So when you ask the question, what did you hear? And they explain it, that's when you say, that was not my intent. Or I apologize for that impression. Or I would recommend is begin your sentence with I can see. I can see how you'd feel that way. I can see how that come up. You know, whenever you say, you know, I. I can see why you'd feel that way. I can see why that would upset you. That I can see just says, hey, I took a second to walk over to where you're standing and I turn to look the same way that you're looking. And I can confirm, yeah, what you see is reasonable. What you see is justified. You know what? That makes sense. I can see that. That right there just goes, boo. It naturally takes down the aggression. This I have to win. You have to see it. What I see. Anytime you can do that and use words of perspective, like view, perspective, See, that is going to help somebody go, oh, I feel heard. Oh, I feel understood. And by that they're going to be more receptive to the progress.

[A]

This is so good, you guys. Just so you know, when you're listening to this, the reason I wanted Jefferson on and the reason I think there should be more work in this topic is there's like only two or three people in the world that even discuss this stuff.

[C]

And it.

[A]

It may be in the top three most important things in life to be able to communicate your point and to be able to overcome adversity in a conversation and a difficulty and maintain or extend relationships. This is not stuff that's taught anywhere yet. It should be. That was a great conversation. And if you want to hear the full interview, be sure to follow the Ed Mylett show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. Here's an excerpt I did with our next guest. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. You know, today was a very important episode for me in terms of scheduling this today because I think it's such an important topic for a couple reasons. Number one, one of my great concerns in our culture right now is the way we talk with one another, the way we have conversations. It just seems to me over the last 20, 30 years in our culture, we've lost the ability to have a conversation with somebody that we might not agree with in a productive way. And I'm sure you all agree with me as well. It's become very difficult in our times to dialogue with somebody that you might have a disagreement with or to have a difficult conversation with. The art and science of learning to have a conversation is one of the most important skills you can have in life. Even with my kids, one of the things I hope they leave our home with is the ability to communicate, the ability to have a conversation with somebody. And it is a skill. And there are insights in how to do it better. And I just feel like it could change our world if we talk to one another better. And I think you'd agree with me, too, whether it be your personal relationships, a political discussion, a religious discussion, as a leader in your company, having a conversation about creating ideas or a new direction, whatever it might be, learning to be a better conversationalist. And I have the perfect guest. His name is Chuck Wisner. Chuck's got a book out right now called the Art of Conscious Conversations, Transforming how we Talk, listen and interact. And I'm really excited to get into this topic. So, Chuck, welcome to the show.

[D]

Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

[A]

It really is for me. You know, a lot of times of all these people on my show that have these huge followings or guests, you know, that, you know, have major notoriety. And I've always found that oftentimes it's the topics on my show that really move people. And more and more people are concerned about the way we talk with one another. And so I want to get right into it. How do you talk to somebody if it's a difficult conversation? One of the things I saw that you said is you ask in your writing, do your patterns of judging others reflect behaviors you don't like or want to recognize or won't recognize about yourself? So when we're in a difficult conversation with somebody, you know, maybe we disagree with them, I want to go to the hard stuff first, like, I'm a Republican and someone's a Democrat, or I'm a Democrat and someone's a Republican, something like that. You know, these hard conversations, what are some of the keys in being better at doing it? So it's actually a productive experience.

[D]

There are definitely keys that we're going to talk about. And it's also important to know that when you're in a difficult conversation, both parties have to be willing to start with truth. And if we can't have a foundation of truth, then you're going to have a very. The conversation will remain difficult. There's opinions and there's facts and there's emotion, and we get all of those mixed up, right? And they all get discombobbled and jumbled up in our brain. But if we realize that my opinion is just my opinion and it's not the truth, then we can slowly. We can say, okay, what's driving my opinion? And we sort of can open our hand and go, this is why I'm thinking how I'm thinking. This is what my standards are. There's four archetypal questions in the book. This is what I'm worried about. This is my concern. Here's what I'd like. We can start to just open our hands and say, okay, I have an opinion. Let's dance with that. Let's see what we can learn from each other. That's a very different conversation with fists than fists coming at each other.

[A]

Yeah. You also say in the book that I've learned to do this myself is to fall in love with asking questions, Right. When you're talking with somebody, whether you're a business leader and trying to create change in your company, or whether you're in an argument with a spouse or disagreement, or you got to talk about something different, like, I've Used. I've used politics as an example because it's the big one. Right, Right. Like, they're good, they're bad. I'm right, you're wrong. And the idea of making statements all the time and telling stories as opposed to asking questions.

[D]

Right, right. And. And the, the idea of whether I'm doing it to myself and asking myself what's driving my opinion, what's driving my judgment, and why am I so hooked on the thing. Right. We can also, the questions help us, like, each question help us open someone else's hand because we can ask, well, what. What do you. What do you really want? What do you. What do you desire here? What do you want out of this? What are your standards for measuring this. This opinion that you have? So our questions can literally help other people unlock and unfist. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And. And. But we aren't trained to ask questions. We're trained to have answers. That's one of the major dilemmas. And then we get into school and we're rewarded for raising our hand. And then we get into business and we're rewarded for being the smartest person in the room. Right? Right. And that's a counter to the. The opposite effect is asking questions.

[A]

Well, this notion of raising your hand was my next thing. So you're reading my mind. And I think one of the art forms of being a great conversationalist is actually the art of listening, and that's why questions matter so much. And you're precisely right. In school, the teacher's still talking and asking the question. We're taught we're rewarded. Raise your hand while they're still talking. And what that does to me. I want you to speak to this to me. What that does to me is it means I'm really not listening to what you're saying. I'm already thinking about what I'm going to say back to you and my answer, or my judgment or my assessment about you. Most people are already raising their hand, you know, metaphorically, when most other people are still talking and they wonder, why am I not connecting with this person? Why can't we find common ground? Because while they're talking, you've got your hand raised already. I got the answer. I know the truth. I want to say something. And rather finishing and letting them finish their statement.

[D]

Yeah. So our. Our brain is spinning, our answer. And so there's no space actually to absorb what's coming at us from the other person. Right. And. And part of that, that actually the main reason that is we are. We get addicted to our position, our ego and our identity gets addicted to. I believe this. And if I believe this is true, then that is. That defines who I am and that. That is often why we enter with fists or why we enter, you know, in defensively, you know, and. And can't just say, okay, I do have an opinion. I'm going to set that aside and I'm going to see if I can explore really what. What's driving this other person's thinking.

[A]

But if I just want to go back for a second, everybody, first thing to ask yourself is, what's your ability to ask questions? And to ask questions without judgment as someone's answering you. In other words, can you learn this, the art of not raising your hand metaphorically when someone's talking and be fully present with their answer absent as much as you can of judgment. We'll talk about triggers in a little bit because you have some brilliant stuff in there on triggers, which I teach in other areas of life, I never thought about in terms of a conversation, but the one thing that opened my eyes and why I wanted you on, among many things, is this idea of there's four conversations, right? And one of them is storytelling. But take the time on this and elaborate. What are the four different conversations and what do they mean?

[D]

So these are four types of conversations. They organize the book. And the reason they work well to do that is each conversation has its own lessons to learn, tools to try, practices to try on. Because each conversation demands different skill sets, and they're all interconnect, and we're generally, without knowing about the conversation, we're just in conversation like fish and water. And as soon as we get, wait a minute, there's storytelling, there's collaboration, there's creativity, and there's commitment conversations. Already we have a different lens to think about conversations, Right?

[A]

Right.

[D]

If I took you to spend six months with the Inuits in Alaska and they taught you there's 27 names for snow in those six months when we came back to New England, you would never see snow the same way, because all of a sudden you have distinctions about snow that allow you to see and perceive and have a different story about snow. Right. Conversation is the same way. If we can begin to think about different conversations and different ways to listen and different ways to ask questions and why it matters, we can't be in conversation as innocently. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

We go, oh, I get. I need to wake up here a little bit because I'm locked down and I'm creating a fight because I'm locked down, right? So that's why the four conversations are just the beginning to say we can start looking at conversations with a better

[A]

lens, you know, so good the, the four he said, by the way, but I just want to make sure you get it, are storytelling, collaborative conversations, creative conversations and commitment conversations. I want to give you a compliment on how your work helped me a little bit on the storytelling part or listening for someone's story. I have a friend who I was watching two friends argue. One's very right wing and one's very left wing. Both these dudes I love, I love both these guys and I actually understand the perspectives of both of them. And so the conversation was actually about welfare and taxes. And my left leaning friend was, you know, they were kind of arguing at first and you know, you know, you should be paying your fair share. You don't want to help the underprivileged. You don't know what this is like. And the other guy's like, wait a minute, you should, shouldn't be lazy and should get a job and it should be temporary. And the normal position, they're both really getting ingrained in it because of your work. I'm like, wait a minute. And the one guy that was for welfare, I said, I said, john, I said, brother, really, what's the story like? Why are you so passionate about that? Welfare should exist, right? I wanted to build a bridge between these dudes. And anyway, John, who by the way, you resemble John, visual John says he's a really strong masculine guy and he goes, well, man, you guys don't know this, but I was on welfare. I was a little boy and it saved my family. And there was a time where as a little boy, I was actually with my mother on the street begging for money so we could eat. And it was a horrible existence and I was a scared little boy and it was traumatic for me. And thank God my mother got on welfare. And you know what? My mother stayed on welfare for quite a while. And my mom didn't really turn her life around, but I did. And now I'm a major league tax player. And I know you, buddy, over there on the right side, like all the taxes I'm playing, but you don't know what it's like not to have food. You don't. And I watched him tell the story and I had to force it. And I watched my right leaning friend listen. And the, the judgment level, which is what you talk about, the judgment level was so far reduced. Where this is a case ironically, where the story Served us.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And because he, I kind of forced it because of your work to listen. And that kind of comes from questions. And it goes to my next point with you. You talk about triggers often. This welfare conversation for my friend was a trigger. Why he was getting angry with the right leaning friend. Like you're not sensitive, you don't care. He's triggered by that thing. Before we start the interview with my next guest, just want to remind you all that you can subscribe to the show on YouTube or follow the show on Apple or Spotify. We have all the links in our show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. Now on with the show. Hey, welcome back to the show, everybody. I'm honored to have this man here for the second time. The first time he was on the show, I sought him out saying please come on the show because his book had made such an impact on me. And now he's got a new book out, by the way, before I introduce him, called Super Communicators, how to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. And it's a topic, as you all know, that I am fascinated by because I talk a lot, lot about it on the show except he's way more qualified than me. And the reason he's way more qualified than me is this guy is a Pulitzer Prize winning writer, he's a New York Times best selling author and he's a renowned expert on habits. And also now after reading his work, he's an expert on communication. So, Charles Duhi, welcome back to the show.

[C]

Thank you, Ed, for having me on. This is such a treat for me.

[A]

Yeah. I love you, brother. You're going to listen to a big brain today, everybody, on a topic that you need to know more about. I got to tell you why I love your book so much. When we were just talking about kids off camera. Yeah. There's a few things I want my kids to have left my house with. One, I want them to have some faith, which is their morals and ethics. I want them to have some work ethic, self confidence. And if I could give him a fourth thing, it would be the ability to be an outstanding communicator. And I just think it's one of the things that is the most important elements of life. I'm sure you agree. What about difficult conversations?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Are those different in nature? And are they, I mean, having to, you know, say, hey, listen, your job performance isn't very good or I'm frustrated with you or, you know, something that's, you know, you're going into it going, gosh, I wish I didn't have to have this conversation, but I do.

[C]

Yeah. Or sometimes they catch you off guard, right? Where, like, I'm talking about one thing and all of a sudden I realize you're furious at me. Like, I didn't pick up on that until just now. And so the answer is, they abide by the same rules. But the fact that you're in conflict changes the context enormously. Because we were just talking about trust, right? I can establish trust by sharing something about myself. But if you go into a conversation where there's conflict, trust is already out the window, right? Like your fight or flight is going off in your head like crazy. You can't trust someone easily just because, like, they ask you a question. So, and this has been a focus of a lot of study, how do we make conversations in conflict better? And there's basically two things. The first one is I mentioned this looping for understanding, right? Asking a question, repeating back what you heard and then asking if you got it right. That's enormously powerful in conflict. Because the first suspicion I have, if you disagree with me and we're in conflict with each other, is you're waiting your turn to speak. You're not hearing what I'm saying, right? You're just waiting there and I'm going to tell you my piece, and then you're going to just bulldoze over me and I'm going to bulldoze back. So if you interrupt that by proving you are listening, using looping for understanding to prove, I really want to understand what you're saying. Help me understand. I'm taking a huge amount of mistrust off the table. The second thing that often happens in conflict, and this happens a lot in marriages, this actually comes from marriage therapy and studies of marriage therapy, is that it is natural when we feel threatened, to want to control things. And the easiest thing to control is the other person. So you tell me your thing, and I'm like, no, no, no. You don't know the evidence. Let me show you the evidence. You say something and you're like, I'm not even gonna listen to this. I try and control you. I try and tell you what you should believe, what you should feel. That's toxic, right? In a marriage. That is the thing that destroys marriage. The alternative is I have a need for control. You have a need for control. We feel threatened. Can we find things to control together? So, for instance, can we control the timing of this fight instead of having it at 2 in the morning? Can we wait till it's 10am and we're both a little bit more rested. Can we control ourselves? Can I let you know I'm going to take a second before I speak and I'm going to think about what you just said. Can I show you that I'm trying to control myself and invite you to control yourself? And the third thing is we can control the boundaries of the conflict itself. So one of the most toxic patterns in marriages is this thing called kitchen sinking, where we start arguing about, like, where we're gonna go for New Year's, and then like, five minutes later, it's like, and your mother hates me and you don't earn enough money, and, like, why are you such a jerk all the time?

[A]

Right?

[C]

So a fight about one thing becomes a fight about everything. The healthy way to do that is to say we need to have a fight. Like, we have a disagreement on something. Let's control the boundaries of it. We're talking about New Year's Eve. If my mother comes up and your money comes up, like, we're just gonna set it aside. That's another conversation, another day. But then when we're controlling these three things, we're controlling ourselves, we're controlling the environment, and we're controlling the boundaries of the. The fight or the. The conflict. We're controlling those as partners. Right. We're on the same side of the table. We might not agree on the topic we're discussing.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But you and I are partners now in controlling the right things in this fight instead of trying to control each other.

[A]

That's outstanding. When you're talking about relationships and family, where my first off, I've made those mistakes.

[C]

Me, too.

[A]

I'm a pretty good kitchen sinker, now that you term it that way.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I think I've gotten better at it. I also think the longer you're with somebody, you have more stuff in the sink. And so it's even more important to avoid that and have that control of the parameters around the conversation. Right.

[C]

How long have you been married for?

[A]

26 years.

[C]

Okay, so I'm coming up on 20. And I'm sure this has happened to you, but tell me if I'm getting this wrong, which is there are these things. Literally, I can say two words, and I know the entire fight in my wife's head, right? It's like. It's like. And sometimes I don't even mean to say them. I'm just like. I, like, I'm like. I'm like, well, you know, it's because, like, I earn more money than you. And then I'm like, oh, nuts.

[A]

There we go.

[C]

I just stepped in it. Like, all to kitchen sink it. All I had to say was literally three words.

[A]

You brought the whole thing?

[C]

Yeah. And so the immediate thing I do is I'm like. I'm like, I'm sorry.

[A]

Whoops. Yeah.

[C]

I did not mean to do that. Like, tell me what you're feeling because I wanna. I wanna give you a chance. But, like, you know what?

[A]

I've gotten better at that, Charles, with my kids too, of saying, you know what? I'm sorry. Let me take that right back. Whereas before, I'd almost double down or they didn't really feel it that bad. It'll. It'll be brushed under and no, sometimes you just have to in the moment go, I'm gonna yank that one back.

[C]

And not only are you connecting with them, but think about the modeling you're doing, right? You're teaching them how to communicate with other people. Like, I'm absolutely certain your kids are gonna copy that without even realizing it comes from dad.

[A]

Yeah, that was a great conversation. Be sure to follow the Ed Mylett show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. Welcome back to the show, everybody. So I'm excited to have this man on the show. I think he's got the best energy on all of television. In fact, I was just watching him on speak on FS1 about, I don't know, hour and a half ago. I was just literally watching him. So he changed out of those beautiful clothes he was on. He's got a sweatsuit for me. So that tells you what he thinks of me. I'm just kidding. I've had his brother on the show, Sam. He just comes from a remarkable family. Former NFL linebacker. This guy's done so much Emmy award winning series that he's got, that he produced called Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man. Had a great book called Uncomfortable Conversations with a black Boy. So I figured I need to have him on so we can just have an uncomfortable conversation and change some lives. So, Emmanuel Acho, welcome to the show.

[E]

My brother. I've heard nothing but good things. I call you a brother because you've had my brother on. My blood brother say Amacho Yalls conversation was fantastic. So I am looking forward to this dialogue. Dude. I don't talk often outside of my sports show, but when I find genuine people and meaningful people, dude, I'm excited.

[A]

Well, I'm grateful for that. Here's one of the things I reason why I think people have a hard time being persuaded. I want you to speak to this. And it's that if they change their point of view, they've disrespected their tribe or the group they're a part of, you know, and there's a lot of pressure on certain. You're really smiling. There's a lot of pressure on certain people. There is for me, in my role. Stephen was telling me, he goes, look, man, I'm on television and an issue that comes up about race. He goes, while I'm on the air, I'm getting text messages from different people. Very significant people tell them, you better say this, you better do that. And he said, it's difficult for me because if I vary from what my. Whatever it is, you could have a political tribe, a racial tribe, a religious tribe, whatever that might be. If I change my mind or I take a position that's not part of my group, somehow I've disrespected or I may lose that group in terms of their loyalty to me. And I really feel like there's a lot of that in life. Right. Like now, because these. These window friends or these other people around is like, wow, if I. If I change my mind about this or I let them know I've changed my mind about this, I've disrespected, or I could lose this group of people. And I think that's one of the reasons people neglect to change their mind sometimes. You see some of that and do you struggle with that?

[E]

That's well said. I see it a lot. I. The reason I do not struggle with that is because I believe that maintaining an ignorant opinion is to disrespect your own intellect. And I would rather disrespect my quote, unquote tribe. If my tribe is being ignorant, then disrespect my own intellect. If I have now unlocked the aperture of my mind to a new way, to a better way, to a more righteous way, to a more honest way, to a more just way. There is a lot of peer pressure to maintaining ignorance. But how can I maintain ignorance? I believe it was Maya Angelou who said, to know better is to do better. Like, once you know better, do better.

[A]

When do you know if you should disengage from a conversation?

[E]

I disengage from conversations when I realize the intention of the other person isn't actually to draw a conclusion. One of my favorite questions to ever ask anybody in life, and it came from Oprah after I Recorded my. I recorded my second episode of Uncomfortable Conversations with a black Man. I sat down with Matthew McConaughey. He called me from a no caller ID number. This is a true story, ladies and gentlemen. Makane says, hey, I want to sit down with you for your second episode of Uncomfortable Conversations. Mind you, I was producing it myself, Ed. I rented out a studio space in Austin by myself. I was not yet a mainstay television personality. I literally hired a wedding videographer because I had no video team. I found a friend who shot weddings. I said, please stand in. Shoot this for me. McConaughey watches the first episode. It had been seen by 25 million people in five days. And he says, hey, I want to have a conversation. I do not know to this day how he got my number. Me and Matthew McConaughey, we sit down for a conversation. Five days later, after that conversation airs, I get a call from another no caller ID number. I pick it up. Hi, Emmanuel. Oprah Winfrey speaking. Say, Oprah. She says, yeah, are you free to FaceTime later today? I FaceTime her later that afternoon. Again, true story, ladies and gentlemen. She asked me one simple question, Ed. One very simple question, and I live by this. This brings this conversation full circle. He said, emmanuel, what is your intention? I said, oprah, my intention is to change the world, and I truly believe I can. I said, I'm currently working on writing a book. She said, books.

[A]

I love books.

[E]

And that's why Oprah and I partnered together to write the first several of the Uncomfortable Conversation series. Now, bringing this full circle, to answer your question.

[A]

Incredible. Incredible.

[E]

What is the intention of the person I'm talking to? That is how I know when to end a conversation. If the intention of the person is a gotcha moment, I'm out. What do I mean by gotcha moment? Let's speak plainly. If the person just wants to try to make me look stupid, I'm out. If the intention of the person is to, figuratively speaking, dunk on me. If the intention of the person is to be like, boom, I got a manual, I'm out. If the intention of the person is not reconciliation, I'm out. If the intention of the person is not to hear what I have to say while simultaneously allowing me to hear what they have to say, I'm out. So the best question we can ask anyone during the course of conversation is the question that Oprah asked me first. What is your intention?

[A]

When I was really young, I won my first incentive trip to go to Hawaii. I'd never been There before, as a kid, we didn't do that kind of thing. And maybe you know who this guy is, but I'll share this with you about intention. So I'm. I got up. No one worked out back in those days. I'm old enough. And I read this book called the Corporate Athlete, this guy named Gropel. And I'm like, I'm going to be an athlete, businessman, right? I'm going to be one of the first ones who's, like, fit and jacked, but in business. And so I'm running on this beach in the morning, sun's not up yet. And there's this guy running towards me, coming the other way. And I see him how old I was. I had a Sony Walkman on playing a cassette. So did he. So old I am. Anyway, this dude's running by me, and I get. He's getting close. I'm like, oh, he's a bald dude. He's got, like this hairy back. And I'm like, he's sweating. I'm like, I don't want to bump this guy. And as he runs by me, I Look, it's. It's Dr. Wayne Dyer, who was a hero of mine at the time, one of the great thought leaders, good men of all time. And I Turn around, go, Dr. Dyer, to just do your point. And he turns around. He's about maybe like 20ft from me. I said, you changed my life. And he goes, he had a deep voice like me. He goes, I doubt that. He goes, I bet you changed your life, but how did I help you? And he walks towards me, and I end up sitting on the beach that day, brother, with Wayne Dyer, watching the sun come up. At the end of the conversation, just to validate your point, he says to me, goes, ed, I think you're going to change the world. Now, I'm a young guy at the time, probably he said that to 100 people, but to me, he had only said it to me. And he goes, it's not because you're a talented guy or brilliant or a great communicator. But he goes, I think you are. But he goes, it's because of your intentions. He goes, I think you have a good heart. I think you're a good man. I think you want to make a difference. And he said, would you do me a favor the rest of your life? Would you attach all of your confidence and your worth not to your abilities or your results, but to your intentions? Because if it's about your abilities and your results, you'll be Chasing your tail and letting yourself down all the time. And then he wrote a book called the Power of Intention. I've never been more convinced of what someone has said on my show than what you just said right there than any point ever made on the show. Because that has literally been the key to whatever limited success I've had in my life is focusing on my intentions at all given time. So I just want to acknowledge what you said right there. It's profound and it's brilliant. Very short intermission here, folks. I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far. Don't forget to follow the show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. Welcome back, everybody. You know, we talk a lot on this program about communication. And one of the things we've not covered that is such a critical part of communication and maybe more important even what you say is your ability to listen to people. It's a huge part of communication. You know, I've taught you before that people don't respond to what they hear or see. They respond to how they feel when they interact with you. And one of the best ways to make somebody feel good is that they feel listened to and that they feel heard. And it's one of the skills that I struggle with the most, which is why I'm so excited to cover this with you today. Because quite frankly, it's something that I've struggled with myself is my ability to just be present and to listen to people. And so, like many of the shows, I'm excited to teach these things to you for your own benefit. But it also helps me in owning this material and. And frankly, anything you teach to people, you end up owning more yourself. And so very, very excited to cover this with you here today. And like I said, it's not something I've been very good at my entire life as being a great listener. So I want to get right into it. And what caused me to do the show today is really two things. I had someone join me on my jet a few weeks ago on a pretty long flight. And there was a group of people, but one particular guy who's an entrepreneur, and I won't say who he is, but he spent a three hour flight with me on my jet. So he spent about three hours with me, about a foot and a half from me, and for three straight hours, he did not ask me one question about myself. He did not listen to one thing I had to say, didn't ask me for any advice and he talked about himself for three hours. This is somebody prior to that flight that I really liked. I was struck, and so were other people in the fight then when they landed, and I don't mean that I'm a big deal or anything like that, but they were shocked by a rising entrepreneur wouldn't take advantage of the time of being with me to ask me questions. I think most of you, if we spent three hours together, you'd probably want to ask me a question or two. And he did not ask me one single question. And he talked about himself and his life and his background and what he had achieved and what he was going to achieve and what he was good at and all those things. And it was probably true. But I found myself when the flight was over, quite honestly not liking him quite as much as I did before the flight. Because people don't like to hear about you all the time. People want to feel heard, they want to feel listened to. And he didn't do any of that the entire flight, plus the fact he didn't learn anything that flight. So remember this. I know there's the old adage that you have two eyes and two ears and one mouth for a reason, and you ought to use them in that ratio, but really, you should even use them. You should use your mouth even less. And so two things happened on that flight. One, he didn't get anything out of it. He didn't learn anything. And two, it made the people around him, quite frankly, not care for him to the extent they could have, because he's a really good guy. But he just talked the entire time. And I don't think he did it out of ego. I think he did it because he was nervous. And so that's one thing I want you to check in the very beginning. When you get nervous. I do. When you get nervous, do you begin to talk more? One of the great things about my show is that I've had to learn to listen more. People say all the time, one of the reasons they like my show is I seem so excited and so interested in what people are saying, because I sincerely am. I've learned that being a great listener is easier than being a great talker, because being a great listener, the pressure is off you to come up with the perfect thing to say, right? The perfect response, the perfect phrase that sounds smarter or better than somebody. You don't have to do that. When you're a great listener. And people's favorite topic, number one, remember this. People's favorite topic is themselves. They love to Talk about themselves. One of the things I found over and over my life and my friends get a kick out of this. But when I play golf, you know, you'll spend four or five hours with somebody when you're on a golf course. And oftentimes my friends will tell me, man, Dave really liked you, Ed. Like, he really enjoyed the time with you, Eddie, so much, but he doesn't know anything about you. And one of the reasons they like me so much is I don't talk about myself. I love to talk about them. I love to ask questions about them. And so it's interesting, when we're done, they really, really like me, and they know nothing about me. And they wonder why they like me. But the reason they like me is I allowed them to talk about themselves. Plus the fact, the way I look at life, I already know about me. I'm not going to learn anything else by talking about myself. I'm going to learn by asking them questions about them. And so I think being a great listener has lots of benefits. One, people will like you more. Two, you're going to learn more. Three, it takes the pressure off you. And so listening skills are so critical. And even as we cover this, you may say I'm a great listener. Well, well, let's go through some things and see how good we all are. Because even on my show, I'll be honest with you, I watch replays back of my show and I interrupt too much, I jump in too much. I finish people sentences for them too often. And that's an ego thing. Almost like I think I can say it better than them. In fact, I'm so bad at it, I'll be honest with you. Before every show, I tell them, hey, this isn't like any other interview you've been on before. I'm going to interrupt you. You can interrupt me. We'll make it like a real conversation. And all of my guests always politely say, wonderful. That's great, great. I want you to cut me off. But the truth is, that's not how a great conversation goes. It's not two people interrupting each other all the time. It's one person talking, another person listening until they're finished speaking and then responding. So this is something I'm not very good at. And so I teach this to you today, not being critical of you, but knowing that it's something I'm going to have to get better at myself. So here we go. Let's talk about some critical steps of being a great listener. You know, there's this thing that's out there too, that says, hey, when you're speaking to a woman, she doesn't want you to solve her problem. She just wants you to listen to her. You've all heard this before, right? Men, that's different. Let me tell you, none of this stuff is gender specific. It's not true at all. Nobody wants you to solve their problem necessarily, not right away. Everybody wants to be heard. Everybody wants to be listened to. Everybody likes to talk about themselves. And so just please remember that this is not gender specific. Men and women aren't different on this. Men like to be heard as well. Men like to be important, Men like to be funny. Men like to be interesting. Men want to share their ideas and thoughts and worries and fears with other people, just like women do. So remember this, you don't always want to just go solve their problem right away. Next thing is this. Always be asking people for understanding so that when they say something, when they're finished speaking, ask them. So what I think you're saying is. Or what I'm hearing is. Or clarify this for me because this shows how deeply you were listening when you ask for clarification. And what I'm hearing is, by the way, when you say the sentence to somebody. So what I'm hearing is that lets them know you were hearing them, that you were listening to them. So as I was listening to you, this is what I understood. Help me understand. Clarify for me, because this gives a deeper sense you were listening to somebody. The next thing is what I'm doing right now with you. Make eye contact. Look right at them when you're talking to them. Don't be distracted. Don't look around, don't look at your phone. The way you tell me I'm important is by looking at me. I have a significant person in my life. And one of the things that drives me crazy is I'm always saying, are you listening to me? And she's always like, yes, of course I'm listening to you. And I'm like, well, could you look at me and let me know you're listening to me? I'm not going to say who that is either, but we all have that person in our life who they're listening, but they don't know to let us know they're listening. Listening. One of the best ways you can do that is by just looking right at somebody, nodding with them when they say something you agree with. Right. Smiling when it's funny, like giving a normal response, you say, well, this is basic stuff. You'd be Surprised how often you look away, how often you're not focused. The next thing is check your body language. Are you leaning in, Are you welcoming, Are you warm? Or are your arms crossed when you're talking to somebody? See, I have this tendency when I'm really listening. I get really drawn in. One of the things I do is I get very serious and I almost begin to grimace and make a face because I'm so interested. I'm in deep thought. But what happens is my visual on my face doesn't indicate to them that I'm enjoying what they're saying or that I'm listening very deeply. So make sure that your facial expression, this may seem basic, but your facial expression matches the moment, matches the emotion. Some other people do something different. They're always smiling when something very serious is being said. That's not an appropriate facial expression and it looks like you're not listening or it disconnects the connection, if you will, no pun intended, between you and that person. So check your facial expressions, make sure you're looking at them. Check your physiology and your body language. The next thing is that when someone's talking, the highest form of listening is to let them finish their sentence. Do not interrupt them. Do not interrupt them. I do this all the time when I get excited.

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Oh really?

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Almost like I want to jump in and get my point in before they're finished or I want to sound smarter or if I don't say it now, I'm going to forget to say it. Probably the number one weakness in my ability in listening to people is my desire and tendency to jump in before they finish their thought. And what that says is my thoughts more important, important than yours? My needs are more important than you? I'm done listening to what you're saying. Be careful to say things like this when they're talking. Uh huh, Right. Got it. Yeah. Wow. Because what that does is it's called a nudge. You're nudging them along verbally to finish. It's like hurry up, I got something to say. Uh huh, right. And that nudges them verbally. I used to think that those were things I was saying that confirmed what they were saying. But it was really what was really happening is I would nudge better. Is that when they're done you say wow or that's interesting. Or you at least respond when they're finished. All responses are wonderful once they're finished speaking. But don't do the verbal nudges that get them to speed up and finish. Don't finish Sentences for people. Next, it's another thing I do. They'll be saying something and they'll be struggling for a word and I give them the word. Let them find the word. It's their word, not yours. And you're still stealing control of the conversation from them and making them feel like you're not listening to them. Don't finish their sentences, don't give them better words, don't talk over them, don't interrupt them. These are all things that we all kind of do from time to time when we get excited. I'm not suggesting if someone is making an incredible point that you don't begin to laugh or jump in. When it's your pattern with somebody, you're not being a good listener. Also use acknowledgement statements when they're done. I agree. That's wonderful. That's amazing. Congratulations. Like, do things like that, that acknowledge what they said. Because when you acknowledge what they said, they feel open. That's an invitation to say more. But when you don't acknowledge what they've said, you don't give a statement to it. When they're done, then they don't feel comfortable continuing to speak. And so ask probative questions. So when you ask somebody, for example, if they're new to you, do you have kids? They say, yes, I do. A follow up question is, what are their names? What are their ages? Begin to learn the volley of follow up questions. The more specific questions you ask, the more what I call follow up questions, the more and more interested you appear to somebody. Let me give you one more huge thing in being a great listener. Where appropriate, you touch somebody. So when they're talking, if they're leaning in, it's an emotional and you grab their hand or you touch their knee, or when they're finished speaking, you shake their hand or hug them or pat them on the shoulder. And by the way, this has to be a appropriate right? Especially when you're talking about different genders. Be very careful of this. But one of the ways you anchor in I'm listening to you is with a touch. It anchors in the emotion. And so I'll often be careful when I shake their hand of touching them or touching their shoulder, or hugging them when we're done, or patting them on the shoulder or knee or something like that. That just acknowledges I'm hearing you. If it's a guy, maybe it's a fist pump or a high five. Right. But it acknowledges the listening and it encourages them to continue. So that is a little bit gender specific, but I Just want to reinforce to you that that just shows you're listening. Then there's a series of questions I think you should ask yourself. Just sort of a checklist of whether or not you're a great listener. So ask yourself this. In conversations you have, do you intend to do more or less talking than the other person? This is a huge one for me, especially in business or even in social as well. Do I talk more than them in the conversation? If I've come out of a good conversation, I've talked less than the other person has talked. Man, is this a difficult one for me. Particularly when you're in a position of authority with somebody, when they're asking you a lot of questions and you're just answering, make sure you're feeding questions back to them. A great conversation is at least a 50, 50 split. But I think the best of them, they've talked more than me that way. I think I've given them more of my emotion and caring and concern than they've given to me. So ask yourself, what are your ratios and your. Your average conversations? This is true, by the way, in everything. In your business meetings, in your sales meetings, with your children, with your spouse, with your friends, with someone you're comfortable with for 30 years and someone you've met for 30 seconds. Who talks more in your exchanges? Number two, when you don't understand what they're saying, do you ask them questions? This is such a huge form of connection with people. Oftentimes if we don't understand something somebody said, we don't ask them a question about it because it may make us look not so smart or not very prepared. But the way that you really indicate I'm listening to you is, hey, can you help me understand this? And you ask for understanding. I didn't understand what that word meant, or I'm not sure who Bill is that you're referring to. Bill who. Right. When you begin to ask questions of understanding, the connection deepens with that person. Another question to ask yourself is, when you're in a conversation with somebody, do you often try to figure out what they're going to say before they finish saying it? This is an indication that you're not present with them when you're listening and you're trying to get them to finish speaking so that you can jump in and say your very important thing. So don't be trying to project forward what they're about to say, because that means you're not listening in the present. And there's a disconnect when you do that so ask yourself this. Do I often or ever try to project forward what they're going to say before they've said it? Next. Do you find yourself just not paying attention when somebody's speaking to you? I mean, maybe you are looking around, or do you find yourself just thinking about other things when people speak to you? This is a value issue. It really means that these other things are more important to you than what this person is saying. And when you begin to build a habit and a pattern of truly not paying attention. One of the reasons I enjoy my interview so much, and quite frankly, my connection with my guests are so long lasting after the program is because I am so interested in what they're saying and I'm interested in what all people are saying. If you were my Uber driver, I think my, my Uber drivers would tell you, man, this guy is overly interested in what I'm saying. And my cameraman Mike is nodding right now because he's been in enough Ubers with me to know I talk to everybody. I think people are gifts and I believe the way you open them up is by asking them questions. And so I don't care if you're a server in a restaurant, my Uber driver, guest on my show who's worth a billion dollars of the top athletes in the world. My pattern of conversations with people is very similar. I'm interested in what they're saying sincerely. And I think you should just begin to ask yourself that question. Are you sincerely interested in what they're saying? Because they can feel this intuitively. Another thing to ask yourself is in a conversation, can you intuitively sort of tell the difference between what somebody is saying and what they really feel? Why is this so important? Because oftentimes people wear social masks with us, don't they? And they'll tell us things frankly that just aren't true or don't completely confirm the way they're feeling about something. And so a deeper, deep level of listening is you can almost feel what they really sense about something or what they're really feeling. Not just listening to the words. This is a way of connecting with someone. They don't even know you're connecting with them, but their words don't match their feelings. And when you can connect with their real feeling, man, have you not only got influence over them, but most importantly, you've got a connection with them. Next one. In conversations with people, do you find yourself finishing their sentences or supplying them with better words? Don't do that. I have this mistake sometimes where I finish their sentence for Them, right? And I think, oh, we're connecting. I'm with you. That's not what it does. It disconnects you from somebody when you use a better word or a different. They say, you know what? I really was just. Just really sad. Oh, you were just really bummed out then, huh? You've rephrased something for them. Another way of listening the wrong way, I think, is do you sometimes only hear the facts and details they're given? Not listening for the emotion behind it? Just listening for the emotion from somebody gives you a much deeper level of connection with them than just listening to the facts and figures. This is important, especially in sales, when someone's giving you facts and figures back. If you can connect with the emotion of it, big, big difference. Lastly, do you struggle with seeing things from that person's perspective, like really connecting with them, really empathizing with them, really believing in them? This is so important when you're listening to somebody is to really try to connect with their point of view. Because the way you help influence me is, if I can meet you where you are, I can take you where we need to go. But if I can't meet you where you are by letting you use your words, your emotions, listening for the emotion behind it, really listening for your point of view. Maybe you sell cars, for example. This person's had a really traumatic time buying cars in the past. They're very skeptical about it. You've got to be able to see it from their point of view. This is true with getting your children to behave differently or interacting with your spouse. It's critical that you meet with them where they are and take them where you're going. So why are all these skills so important, especially from a business perspective? Because this has been very detailed, very granular. The reason it's so important is because to really influence somebody, they have to trust you. And the way you do that is by building rapport with them. So one of the things I used to do incorrectly is I brought all this massive energy. Ever heard people say you got to bring the most energy? The highest energy person does win. But the way that you really influence somebody is by connecting with them and listening and then matching them physically and their tonality as well. So when I talk back with somebody, I listen for their tonality. I listen to the volume of their voice, the pace of their voice, how they speak. I begin to try to match by listening to them, the words they use, the tonality they use, and the volume they use. If they use a certain set of words. From time to time, if you were listening closely, if you then use some of those same words back to them, you connect. So this is a form of influence. If this person sort of repeatedly use the words literally. Literally, literally. You've heard that word three or four times. When I'm then going to be saying my stuff, back them to influence them, I'm going to use the word literally. This is a connection word. It's part of the words they love. When I use words they love, I can influence them. This is a huge thing in influence, in closing, in moving people to make decisions that are best for themselves. If they talk at a pace like this, just like I'm talking at this pace right now, and I'm talking like this very fast, I break connection and we can't have rapport. So I want to listen for the pace that they speak at the cadence, also the tonality. You know, they talk kind of hunched over and quiet. I want to talk like that and a little bit better. If they talk at a certain volume, if they talk like this, I don't want to talk like this. At the same time, if they talk like this, I don't want to talk like this. I wasn't listening. For their volume level, we want to match their volume level. And so when you begin to match and mirror like this, use the words they use, just a few of them, don't overcook it. But when they've got three or four words, they use and use one or two of those words. I, I can promise you, you connect. When you speak at a similar pace to them in tonality, you connect. When you speak at a similar volume to them, you connect. If there are hand gestures, as I'm listening and observing them, they use. If they're constantly folding their hands like this. If you're on audio, I'm folding my hands right now. They pray or they have their hands down, or they do some sort of a gesture with their hands or shoulders, I will. Oftentimes I'm watching. This isn't manipulation. This is connecting with people. I'm listening so closely, I can see their physical moves as well. If there's emotions I hear them go to often, which is regret or sadness. Let's just say they keep telling me stories about things they regret or they're sad of. I will share with them one of the things I regret and bring them with me. If they talk about, you know, past achievements or they talk about, you know, some material things, then I'll talk about some material things or past achievements. I'm losing listening for them to give me the language, the words, the tonality that I can move them with. And this is also true in every area, but particularly in influence when we're trying to persuade people. So the reason this is so important is people have go to words. And so if you're really listening closely, not only you connecting better with me, but they will tell you the three or four words they use a lot. Every human being does this by the way you do it too. You have a few words you use more than most. And if someone's really listening closely, they can hear what those words are. And if I use one or two of those words back with you, I've connected with you on a deeper level. The next thing that's huge by the way, in listening is to repeat back to them what you believe they've just said. Repeat back to them what you've heard. This is what I've heard. This is what I'm hearing. This is what I'm listening to. This is true. When I'm interacting with my children before, I just tell them I want to do something. I listen to them and I say, here's what daddy's hearing. Is this true? That's really been bothering you regularly. Is this something? So when I'm listening to them, they know I listening use acknowledgement statements. It's not done enough. People love to be complimented. I love to be complimented. You do? So after I've listened to you, after you've told me what you need to tell me, I want you to learn this sentence. Everybody, right now, I just want to acknowledge you. I think you're amazing. I think you're incredible. Thank you for sharing this with me. That's awesome. And it might be with guys, you don't say, hey, bro, that was cool. Thanks man. Man, I always love connecting with you, brother. You're my brother, right? Always do a connection statement. Always do an acknowledgement. That's what why I love you, man. Whatever it is. You know, people talk differently depending on who they're around. Someone you've known 30 years different than someone even know in 30 minutes. But the fact of the matter is I always do connection, man. I love you, brother. Thank you so much. That's why we're so close, man. That's why I love being around you. Whatever it is, you begin to say acknowledgement statements to somebody because it connects the conversation. It's what I call a post frame after someone said something. The last thing I want you to focus on, children, spouse, business, brand new person in A social environment or someone you know in 30 years, acknowledge them. Thank you. That was awesome. Great meeting you. If they're new, right? I get out of a newer. I go, man, I enjoyed our time so much. Thank you. That's post framing what we just talked about. If it's someone I've been with a long time, say, brother, man, that's why I love you, bro. That's why I love you. And then other people, it's like that's. You always inspire me. You fire me up. Thank you. I love how vulnerable you are. Whatever it is. I just want to acknowledge you. I just want to tell you how much I appreciate, appreciate you. I just want to thank you. I just want to tell you you're awesome. I just want to tell you I believe in you. Do an acknowledgement statement that post frames what you've covered and I promise you, you've now put a bow around being one of the great listeners that anyone will ever be around. It's going to make you one of the most well liked and most influential people that you know. And by the way, isn't that we're after in life being well liked and being influential. And that usually comes down not to being an incredible orator, but being an incredible listener. And these are the skills. And these skills matter in every area. In building a church and building a Boy Scout troop, in building a softball team, in building a business, in building any family. Anything in life is that we want to be able to be liked and have influence. And that always comes down to what we make people feel. And more than anything, people feel great when they've been able to talk about themselves. But most importantly, they feel listened to and connected with and acknowledged. Listened to, connected with and acknowledged. This is how we have influence over people. This is also how we make a difference in people's lives. The final piece of the puzzle is this, is that because of social media we have such an advantage. And I just want to tell you something that doesn't happen enough. But when it has happened for you, man, does it feel like the connections even deeper? It doesn't matter. What it is is that when your separation from that person takes place and they leave you, you, especially if they don't live with you, whether that be a client, a best friend, a new friend, or someone you just met, following up a little while later with a text that just says, I enjoyed our time so much. I enjoyed listening to you. Thanks for sharing this with me. And maybe repeating back to them what you heard a little bit of and when you do that, it cements them. Not only did he listen to me or she listened to me in my presence, but they continued to listen to me after I was gone. They continued to connect with with me and this extends the connection and deepens the connection. When after you physically separated and even by the way, if this communication happened by phone and you weren't physically with them, for you to follow up after a phone call with a text a few hours later that just says man, I enjoyed the talk so much. Thanks for sharing that with me or always love when we connect or you always make me laugh or I'm so glad we're new friends now I feel like I've made a new friend. Whatever it is, you strengthen and deepen, deepen the connection with people by letting them know later, hey, I heard you. Hey, I listened to you. So not only doing great in their presence, but later confirming for them I was with you. I heard you. I enjoyed it. I want to acknowledge you man. Have you deepened the fact that you've listened to.

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Some Follow the Noise. Bloomberg Follows the Money Whether it's the

[A]

funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings, there's a money side to every story. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe [e-mail].