How To Handle High Conflict Conversations Without Losing Control | Ed Mylett

Summary

THE ED MYLETT SHOW
Episode: How To Handle High Conflict Conversations Without Losing Control
Date: February 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

This special episode of The Ed Mylett Show dives deep into the art and science of handling high-conflict conversations, focusing on how to maintain control, build connection, and communicate with true influence and empathy. Ed hosts three distinguished communication experts—Jefferson Fisher, Chuck Wisner, and Charles Duhigg—each bringing practical tactics, memorable stories, and science-backed insights for navigating everything from workplace disagreements to marital disputes and social conversations. If you want to argue less, talk more, and be heard (and hear others!), this conversation is a must-listen.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reframing What It Means to “Win” a Conversation

[02:13–06:20] Jefferson Fisher

• Don’t go in to win the argument. Attorneys don’t “win every argument;” they advocate within the framework of facts, law, and evidence.
  • “If you go into always just wanting to win the argument, you will lose something else that is far more valuable every time...the relationship, their respect, your reputation.” – Jefferson Fisher [05:08]
• Mindset shift: Approach communication as an opportunity to maintain relationships, not to dominate or “win.”
• Warning against zero-sum interaction: Winning an argument at the expense of trust and approachability is a loss.

2. Power Dynamics: Handling Dominance & Subtle Putdowns

[06:20–15:17] Jefferson Fisher

• Dealing with dominant personalities: Don’t try to “wrestle” back control; simply don’t allow yourself to be pushed over.
  • “Insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet.” – Jefferson Fisher [09:11]
• Passive Aggression & Subtle Digs: Address with curious, neutral questions:
  • “Should I read into that?” or “Sounds like there’s more to that.” [13:12]
  • In escalation: “Did you mean for that to sound rude?” gives the other person an “exit ramp” or lets their intent show.

3. Repairing Miscommunication & Slowing the Pace

[15:17–25:30] Jefferson Fisher

• If you’re misunderstood, ask: “What did you hear?”
  • “What is said is not always what is received." [16:02]
  • Use perspective language: “I can see how you’d feel that way.”
• Silent Treatment: Use language of “distance” rather than “what’s wrong with you.” e.g., “I feel like we’re miles apart right now. I’d like to get closer.” [21:34]
• Controlling Conversation Pace: Breathe before responding. Let your breath be your “first word.” Slowing down keeps emotions in check and models emotional control for others.

4. Effective Leadership & Communication Style

[09:25–10:48] Jefferson Fisher/Ed Mylett

• Great leaders and confident communicators:
  • Use fewer words, leave space for others.
  • “Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation.” – Jefferson Fisher [09:25]
  • Calm energy (not frantic “command and control”) is the hallmark of authority and trust.

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5. Unlocking Productive Difficult Conversations

[30:07–35:17] Chuck Wisner

• Foundation of truth: Both parties need to be willing to recognize the difference between facts, opinions, emotions.
• Judgment reflection: “Do your patterns of judging others reflect behaviors you don’t want to recognize about yourself?” [30:07]
• Fall in love with asking questions: “Questions help us open someone else’s hand.” [32:52]
• Listening vs. Raising Your Hand: Don’t just wait to talk—let the other finish. Curiosity and active listening matter.

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6. The Science and Skill of Connection: Looping for Understanding

[36:46–62:15] Charles Duhigg

• What makes a “super communicator”? The people we seek for comfort, advice, or belonging are people who make us feel understood—by listening and matching our vulnerability.
  • “He proved to you that he was listening to you, that he heard what you said." – Charles Duhigg [40:01]
• Looping for Understanding: When disagreement or tension arises:
  1. Ask a genuine question.
  2. Repeat back what you’ve heard in your own words.
  3. Ask if you got it right.
     • “It’s that third step we often forget… and is the most powerful.” – Charles Duhigg [86:48]
• Matching conversation types: Know whether you—or someone else—are having a practical, emotional, or social conversation. Mismatching (“fixing” when someone is emotional) blocks connection.
  • “If she matches me and then invites me to match her, then we’re having the same kind of conversation.” [49:14]
• Reciprocity in vulnerability: Emotional reciprocity builds trust—lead by giving vulnerability, not just advice or facts.
  • “If somebody engages in emotional reciprocity, we can’t help but feel closer.” [53:57]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet.” – Jefferson Fisher [09:11]
• “What is said is not always what’s received.” – Jefferson Fisher [16:02]
• “Let your breath be the first word that you say.” – Jefferson Fisher [25:30]
• “If we realize that my opinion is just my opinion and it's not the truth, then we can…see what we can learn from each other. That's a very different conversation than fists coming at each other.” – Chuck Wisner [31:27]
• Ed Mylett, on conversation’s purpose:
  “The goal of a conversation is simply to understand what the other person is trying to tell you.” [42:59]
• “Looping for understanding... When someone says that to me, when they're like, 'Tell me if I'm getting this right'...I actually find it valuable as the speaker because I'm like, no, no, no, I did a bad job explaining.” – Charles Duhigg [86:53]
• NASA astronaut selection via laughter and empathy:
  “If the candidates matched his laughter, showed empathy, and asked questions, they were the ones who succeeded in space.” – Charles Duhigg [69:01–70:27]

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Practical Tools, Strategies, & Tactics

• To disarm passive aggression:
  Use neutral, curious questions:
  • “Should I read into that?” [13:12]
  • “Sounds like there’s more to that.”
• To address clear rudeness:
  • “Did you mean for that to sound rude?” [14:18]
• If you’re misunderstood:
  • “What did you hear?” and then acknowledge their feelings (“I can see how…”).
• If someone stonewalls/silent treatment:
  • Use “distance” language (“I feel like we’re 50 yards apart…”) and give space, then gently invite them back in. [21:34]
• Control the pace:
  • Breathe intentionally before responding; don’t let others’ emotional energy dictate your speed. [25:30]
• Navigating conflict (Duhigg):
  1. Loop for understanding: ask, repeat in own words, check if accurate.
  2. Control together: Set timing, boundaries, and environment for the difficult conversation—don't try to control the other person. [58:41]
• For introverts/social anxiety:
  • Ask questions that uncover people’s other identities or values, e.g., “What made you become a lawyer?” [50:01]
• Ending conversations smoothly:
  • Pre-frame the end: “This is so interesting, I totally need to go refresh my drink, but before I do, let me ask you X…” [53:25]
• Written (non-verbal) communication:
  • Over-index on politeness and context (“please,” “thank you,” explain brevity) in email/text vs. spoken word. [82:37–84:13]
• Teaching kids:
  • Encourage conversations about “the unimportant things” to keep lines open, and ask meaningful, nonjudgmental questions. [64:59–67:16]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:13] – Redefining “winning” in arguments (Fisher)
• [06:20] – Handling dominant personalities
• [12:36] – Addressing passive aggression
• [15:17] – Repairing miscommunication and silent treatment
• [21:34] – Strategies for the silent treatment
• [25:30] – Managing pace of difficult conversations
• [30:07] – Chuck Wisner on the foundation of truth and judgment
• [36:46] – Duhigg: Super Communicators and the importance of listening
• [42:12] – Looping for understanding
• [47:38] – Practical, Emotional, Social conversation types
• [49:55] – Advice for introverts and ending conversations
• [53:25] – Pre-framing the end of conversations
• [58:25] – Handling conflict, kitchen sinking, and establishing boundaries
• [64:49] – Teaching communication to young people
• [70:27] – Non-verbal cues: laughter, matching, and NASA’s astronaut selection
• [82:37] – Written communication: email, text, slack
• [86:33] – The power of looping for understanding (3-step process)

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Final Thoughts

Ed and his guests reinforce that great communication is learnable. Everyone can become a “super communicator” with the right mindset, strategies, and sensitivity to the true nature of each conversation—whether personal, professional, or public. The difference between merely speaking and truly connecting? Intention, humility, and a willingness to listen, acknowledge, and match.

Recommended Further Action:
Get the highlighted books for deeper dives:

• Jefferson Fisher: “The Next Conversation”
• Chuck Wisner: “The Art of Conscious Conversations”
• Charles Duhigg: “Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection”

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“Your ability to communicate is the cap on your happiness, your influence, and the intimacy in your life.” – Ed Mylett [58:05]

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Transcript

[Stassi Schroeder]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast, Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Jefferson Fisher]

This is your fix.

[Stassi Schroeder]

I am your host, Stassi Schroeder. Welcome to Tell Me Lies, the official podcast. What's the most unhinged thing of season three?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Steven.

[Charles Duhigg]

Because he's so evil, I do think he is misunderstood.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You see everyone face consequences.

[Stassi Schroeder]

It's intoxicating. The writers just know how to trick. Yeah, there's always a twist in this show. Tell Me Lies, the official podcast January 6th. And stream the new season of Tell Me Lies January 13th on Hulu and

[Ed Mylett]

Hulu on Disney Foreign. This is the Ed Milet Show. Hey, everyone. Welcome to my weekend special. I hope you enjoy the show. Be sure to follow the Ed Mylett show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. Here's our first guest. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. I try to make it a practice not to have a lot of attorneys on the show. It's just sort of a rule of thumb. I'm just kidding to all my attorney listeners. But in this case, this man's work is so good, and I mean this, I sought him out. I like when I see a relatively new face on the scene that is doing work that is not like everybody else's, that it's his own. And then I believe his work can dramatically impact your life from a productivity standpoint, a peace of mind standpoint, an influence standpoint. And he's got a book out right now called the Next Conversation. Argue less, talk more. And I consider him, and I don't say this often, to be a communication expert. And you will see that reveal itself throughout the next hour. You are going to learn so much and take so many notes today from Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson, welcome to the show. Finally, brother.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And thank you so much for having me. I'm truly honored to be here. It's. It's a pinch me moment. Great to meet you, man.

[Ed Mylett]

Yeah, likewise. I have to tell you, my two kids, my son's professional golfer, my daughter's a junior in college, and I sort of had three things. I wanted them to leave my house with when they were little, I wanted them to leave with their faith because in their sort of their morals and ethics and values, I wanted them to leave with a bunch of self confidence, which I think under that, if you get confidential, work hard. But the third thing that surprises most people is I wanted them to leave me with world class ability to communicate. I believe it's a separator in our world today. And what you teach and the way you teach it is as good as I've ever seen it before, brother. And so I kind of want to get into this. The book's awesome, by the way. I read it in about a day and a half. It's awesome. My note version of it, by the way. But I want. Let's just start out kind of like with argument stuff. Okay. You're. You're an attorney by trade. First off, are you still practicing? That's a. And then inside that answer, kind of one of the big rules of the book is never win an argument. But I'm like, isn't that sort of the job of an attorney? So help me navigate those two things at once.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, well, one is I am still practicing. I am slowly learning how to transition out of that. I have a wonderful team. I'm able to delegate a lot of my cases. But right now I'm almost more of a. A leverage chip in settlements. It's kind of this weird thing where jurors know me and so judges and court staff know my content. And so being involved is also advantageous in certain ways, but slowly learning to develop and be in this space like we were talking about. So it's, it's getting there. Second of all, what do attorneys do? You're supposed to win every argument. You're an attorney. Oh, you must win a lot of arguments. It's an absolute lie. And I'll tell you why you make it to choose your client. Do I sign this person up? Do I not sign this person up? But you don't get to choose your facts. You don't get to choose the law, you don't get to choose the evidence. And so what you have to do is it's really more about giving the facts a voice. You're being an advocate for your client's story, for their position, for their perspective of how something happened. And so is the other side doing the same thing. I don't get to choose the facts, the evidence. Instead what I have to do is advocate. And then it is up to the judge to apply that law to the evidence for the jury to determine. So to Say we win arguments, that's just not true. A lot of the times the law is what does it for us. You just follow what the law says might be on the good side of it and the losing side of it, so to speak. But it's not a win loss thing.

[Ed Mylett]

What about with another human being? Why would you write a book about communication and argue less, talk more, but then really rule one is don't win. Is that more of a mindset thing? Is that what you mean when I approach a conversation with somebody or is that you literally mean that don't try to win an argument?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I literally mean that if you go into always just wanting to win the argument, you will be lose something else that is far more valuable. Every time when I'm arguing in front of a judge and the other side's arguing again, there's case law, there's a statute, there's a law that is applying to this and they just I might have more precedent than the other person and they can't compete against that. It doesn't mean that their argument wasn't any better. But you get into, especially in the courtroom, this feeling of well, I have to win a lot of trials. Listen, if you haven't lost trials, you haven't tried enough trials, that's just the way it goes. If you want to spot somebody who's in inexperienced, they haven't lost enough. But the mindset to it is much more impactful in every listener's world right now. That if you find that every book you read, every blog that you see is something that how to win every argument, it's is lying to you. Because what you're going to do when you have that mentality is you're going to lose the relationship, you're going to lose their respect, they're going to close themselves off from you, you're going to be less approachable, you're going to lose quality of your reputation if all you seek do is win every argument.

[Ed Mylett]

What if you're with someone who does try to do that? So let's start out his content. You guys is so specific is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually real phraseology, real words where perhaps you are the secondary person is what I would call it. So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, friend, boss and person they supervise. But one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're always teaching you a lesson or they're in the control position. Is there a way to sort of wrestle is the wrong word. But re establish pecking order or at least equality in a commerce. You know what I mean when I say that? That you have people that in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything. You're not, they're in charge. You're not. They're picking the restaurant. You're not. Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I started with one of the hard questions first because I think more people find themselves invisible pecking order conversations almost than maybe they realize.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Let's split the dynamic too. Let's say it's. If it's one on one, much harder because this person has constructed their whole identity most likely to this facade. If it is, let's say you're in a meeting and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't have to push back. You just can't be pushed over. Let's say one on one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant. Biggest thing you're going to do is just not be pushed over. Meaning you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not going to push back because they're looking for that threat, we call it water off a duck's back. Where anything that somebody says, you can just say, okay, noted. I got it. No, if I have any questions, I'll ask. This ability to kind of be in the. In the pocket in your communication, the temptation is we want to compete with them. Oh, you just went skydiving. Oh, that's great. I just went twice. Oh, you know, Ed, it's great. Yeah, you need to. And they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop, how many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance. Let's say, let's just use the word alphas, or the people that are very confident in the communication, the conversation typically say much less. You've been in those meetings where the person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say, is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true conversation of what's happening. They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog is the person that's the most quiet. And when that person speaks, everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So Insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet.

[Ed Mylett]

You say that about leaders, too. It struck me where you said, actually, great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non leader. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator, of a leader? Correct?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Correct. Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, oh, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it, oh, who do you think you're talking to? And they need to correct and drive traffic and go, go, go. The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insecure people feel like they have to prove. They have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart. Confident people know that great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the best leaders have a calm energy about them when they're on the floor of whatever is happening. Instead of this erratic, you know, what's going on, okay, we need to do this. And they start shouting and getting mad and yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, okay, what do we need to do next? What's happening next? Instead of the blame, it's where we moving forward. So driving the conversation in a way that sets authority. People are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees, supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization, and same in everyday conversation. So you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor brother.

[Ed Mylett]

So good you buy the way you exhibit that. By the way, from the minute we flipped the camera on even before we went live, there's a deliberate calmness to the way in which you listen. You actually listen calmly. It's one of the things I noticed about you instantaneously when the camera went on. Most of you don't know this because I'm an entrepreneur, but my major in college was actually broadcasting. And so it's amazing that God had this way 30 years later to create podcasts, and then I was able to take advantage of that background. But one of the things you have to learn in broadcasting when you write your copy is to write things with fewer words because you have to deliver segments in these little bites of time. And that taught me to communicate with fewer words, saying the same thing other people take more words to do. And I do believe that that's an effective use. If you watch communicators, they're fewer words. They use. It's almost like someone watching on broadcasting. I want to make sure everybody gets the book too, because we're going into a lot of stuff. It's the next conversation. Argue less, talk more. What if you're with somebody who. I used it earlier, but I want to go a little bit deeper. They pick on you. They kind of gnaw at you a little bit. You know, everything is almost passive aggressive in the way they say things. And you find yourself almost being put down subtly when you communicate with this person. And I find this an awful lot lately with couples that are friends of mine, married couples, there's this subtle dynamic where they both are a little bit passive aggressive with one another in the way they communicate. And I, I feel empathy for the one that I think is the one receiving most of the aggression. Is there something you can do when you feel like someone's communicating with you that way? Is there a phraseology or a. Or a strategy for that?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Let's separate into two different categories. So one, let's say is kind of this more just passive aggressive bucket. The other is let's ramp it up to somebody being a little bit more overtly disrespectful, rude. So in this first bucket, this passive aggressive, these are people that most likely just have grown up that way. This is what they saw mirrored conversation and arguments throughout their life. And they don't know how to express that kind of thing. So when they slide in that negative comment that, you know, there's something to that, a simple question of like, should I read into that? Or is there more to that?

[Ed Mylett]

Or.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And this goes for Chris Foss, dear friend, and I love his. His question is, sounds like you have a reason for saying that. I love that phrase. I, I also love. Sounds like there's more to that. So anytime you can just quickly ask, sounds like there's more to that. Or ask them, should I read into that? That tends to draw out the passive aggressiveness because they're not expecting you to kind of call them to the floor on the flip side of somebody saying more aggressive things towards you. My recommendation is begin your question with did you mean, did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to hurt my feelings? Did you say that to offend me? When you say did you mean, it is twofold. One, it's giving them the grace of perhaps they said it in a way they did not mean and it's going to allow them to fix it. Like, at least with Me and my wife, if we're texting and something seems like it's off, instead of it saying, you know, why are you being so short? What's wrong?

[Ed Mylett]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The question asked. The question. Did you mean for that to sound short instantly? Almost every time my, you know, it is like the, oh, no, no, no, no, sorry, I'm picking up the kids. Or, you know, I was checking out the grocery store, getting gas. You know, you. You get that, that K or okay. And you're like, oh, okay. I guess. I guess they hate me right now. All right. Like, I guess they're in a mood, and then you naturally get in the mood, and then you respond defensively, which causes them to respond offensively. And now you're convinced. You've convinced yourself you're under attack. So it's this, this feedback loop that's kind of helpful to you. So when you begin with, did you mean It's a great way to set somebody to, one, give them that grace of fixing it. But two, it's calling attention to what they were wanting to do. Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? It is. Or did you mean for that to sound rude? Like, that is a very quick way to address it out in the open. And if they're going to double down on it or not.

[Ed Mylett]

Will you do that? By the way, this is so good. Will you do that in reverse if you feel that what you've said has been misinterpreted? In other words, if you feel like you're. I do this better in business than I do personal life. To be honest with you, in personal life, I think I just let everything out the window that I know that are tools, which is so stupid when it comes to business. I'm pretty good at this with friends and family. I devolve into the most emotionally immature person sometimes. But. So let's say we have gone back and forth and maybe I've said something the other way that they're hurt by. Will you slow a conversation down, for example, and say something like, what did you hear me say? How will you handle that? If the person is now coming back at you for something they believe you've said that's passive aggressive or demeaning or rude.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Awesome question. This happens all the time, especially in relationships. But I'd say even work, too. When somebody tells you something, you've been in that situation where somebody is going, that's not what you said. You said this. And they kind of give a voice that doesn't even sound like your voice and gives a intonation and you're like, I didn't even say it like that. And all of a sudden now you're going, that's not what I said. I didn't say it like that. You're just pushing what you thought you conveyed. And nine times out of ten it is inaccurate because what is said is not always what's received. So instead of this, that's not what I said, you are going to ask the question, what did you hear? What did you hear? Because now it's not about what I am putting out. I am now getting curious of what you heard because that's what matters. Anytime you had that kind of confrontation or that miscommunication, instead of going, no, no, no, that's not what, that's not what I said. And kind of dismissing their whole experience or their perspective, by the way, it's very hard to judge. It's like making your own movie but not having an audience and going, no, no, that's not how the movie goes. It's like nobody else has seen it. Only you're the one who thinks it's that way. So when you ask the question what did you hear? And they explain it, that's when you could say, that was not my intent. Or I apologize for that impression. Or I would recommend is begin your sentence with I can see, I, I can see how you feel that way. I can see how that come up, you know, whenever you say, you know, I, I can see why you'd feel that way. I can see why that would upset you.

[Ed Mylett]

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[Charles Duhigg]

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[Ed Mylett]

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[Jefferson Fisher]

I can see just says, hey, I took a second to walk over to where you're standing and I turned to look the same way that you're looking. And I can confirm, yeah, what you see is reasonable. What you see is justified. You know what, that makes sense. I can see that. That right there just goes boo. It naturally takes down the aggression. This I have to win. You have to see it. What I see. Anytime you can do that and use words of perspective, like view. Perspective. See, that is going to help somebody go, oh, I feel heard. Oh, I feel understood. And by that they're going to be more receptive to the progress.

[Ed Mylett]

This is so good, you guys. Just so you know when you're listening to this, the reason I wanted Jefferson on and the reason I think there should be more work in this topic is there's like only two or three people in the world that even discuss this stuff. And it, it may be in the top three most important things in life to be able to communicate your point and to be able to overcome adversity in a conversation and a difficulty and maintain or extend relationships. This is not stuff that's taught anywhere yet. It should be. And what do you do? Gosh, I, I, I'm thinking of a situation I have with a friend who, and I, I don't remember this being in the book. So this will be a tough one. They go, they go silent on you. In other words, the conversation is going a particular way and I don't know, maybe it's me, I do start to win and maybe they can feel it, you know, like, and they just get quiet and I'm like, are you still there? Hello? Is there something you would say to re engage somebody who's given you the silent treatment or gone cold on you, or every time a conversation gets to a certain point, they just disengage completely? Or is your suggestion, don't let it get to that point by using some of these tactics and strategies. But is there a way when they disengage and go quiet that you can bring them back in?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Where, here's where you go wrong, is when somebody's giving you that silent treatment. There's this temptation that we started to say ugly things. Like in romantic relationships, you'll start to kind of say hurtful things in hopes that they bite back because all you're wanting is just to feel like you're not alone. So you're wanting that engagement. That happens sometimes in toxic relationships. Now, there are techniques that we can use to not get to that point, but let's say you're already there. Let's say you're already, they're, they're, they're distanced from you. There's nothing you're going to be able to say, nothing you can do physically. To just grab that person and say, come back to the conversation highlights the importance of not letting it get to that point. But what I would recommend is if somebody is giving that distance, you give them that distance. So maybe it's a day, maybe it's two days. Because what it's highlighting for you is that you're wanting the conversation just to hear yourself. You have not been in the conversation to hear the other person. And when they are taking the time, sometimes that is needed, sometimes there's wisdom in that of taking the time to think and disengage and give it a break. And if you need to, then what I would say is you message that person, you leave a voicemail for that person if they don't respond to your call and say, hey, I feel like we're miles away. It's important to use distances. I like using distances in conversation. So you feel a mile away from me right Now. Or I feel like we're 50 yards apart. Whenever you use distances, it's a great way of saying, hey, um, of saying you can feel that we're off, instead of saying, hey, what's wrong with you? Or, hey, you seem off, or you what. What's going on? What's wrong? When you can use distances of. I feel like you're far away from me right now. I. At least I do that even in my. My life is a great way of not getting them defensive. But you call them, say, hey, I feel like we're far away. I'd really like to. To get closer. I want to find a way that we can talk again. Or, hey, just letting you know I'm here wanting to talk to you. I hope to see you, hope to hear from you soon. Any way that you just say, I am not trying to pressure this at all because you need to give them that space to continue to think about it. Or you can also say, hey, I think it was smart of you to give this conversation some space. You're right. I needed that. And we'll love to touch base with you soon. So you're giving them credit for their choice. So when you're saying, you know, almost like a, hey, good job, thank you for trying to get us back on track, they will take that and go, okay, yeah, that was my intentional choice to help us rather than you saying, hey, you know what? You're not talking to me. If you don't want to talk to me, that's fine. That kind of stuff is going to further pull them apart so good.

[Ed Mylett]

Jefferson, When I'm in a conversation that I feel like I'm. It's getting away from me. Let's say that that could be a sales negotiation. It could be a conversation with a friend. You name it. I feel like in my case, most of the time, it's speeding up faster than I want it to. You talk about this in rule one, number six is control the pace. And as I listen to you, I mean, you're very cognizant even of your pace in the way that you communicate, even on the show today and even in your content. Do you're actually a little faster when you do the content from your car than you are right now on the show. You're even a pace slower today than you are in your car. So I watch that, like, tonality and pacing. Yeah, let's talk about that in a conversation. Because with my. When emotions run high, often times for me, I feel like the conversation is speeding up where my My intellect is now not quite as sharp as my emotions are running, if that makes any sense. So what are strategies to control the pace and what does that even mean?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I love that you picked up on that. The anytime you are getting that fight or flight, and I know all of your listeners, highly educated, they know fight or flight. Whenever you're getting emotionally flooded like that, it is, that's why you're having trouble finding your thoughts and connecting things. And that's why the quicker you get, maybe you've felt it where you're, you're either nervous or. Same thing. When you're really mad, you might stammer and you might go like, no, no, no, that's not in your having trouble getting words out. It's because you're just flooded. Your emotions are there. Your logical and analytical side is not. And so what I teach every one of my clients before they go cross examination and I'm just offering them up to the wolves, is a constant reminder of you control the pace, not them. That means no matter how fast somebody is peppering you with questions, the conversation cannot happen any faster than you respond. So whenever they ask you a question and you give a rapid fire answer back, or worse, you start to step over their question because you already see where it's going. Bad things happen. You say things you don't mean. You say things that are not fully thought out. That's why even in romantic relationships, all of a sudden you blurt something out and you go, oh, that's, oh man, that's not what I mean. And you, you already knew as soon as it came out of your mouth. You put your foot in your mouth and you messed up. It's because you weren't controlling the pace. That means you need to slow down your words and that you need to leave space between what they said and how you're going and when you're going to respond. There's a difference. If you were to ask me if, if you said, hey Jefferson, how's your day? And I said, good, it was real good. I mean it was, it was, it was really good. Thanks. Versus hey Jefferson, how's your day? And I said it was good. It was a good day. Like you can just hear the difference in which one listened to the question, which one thought about the answer, which one makes the other person feel acknowledged or heard. Same thing with. That's why rule number one is say with control. If you go down and let's say you're, you're at work and all of a sudden you go what's wrong? What happened? What's going on? And you all you're sensing and telling the other person is you're grasping for control versus you come in, take a breath, and then you're saying, all right, what happened? Give it to me. Like, people are looking, like we said, for those emotional anchors. So what I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say. That's how you set the pace of a conversation. So where your first word would be put a breath in its place. And what's that going to do is keep your analytical side engaged and to where you do not allow yourself emotionally to get emotionally flooded. And the second benefit is neither does the other person, because now you are also injecting the time and forcing them to slow down.

[Ed Mylett]

Very short intermission here, folks. I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far. Don't forget to follow the show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. Now on to our next guest. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. You know, today was a very important episode for me in terms of scheduling this today because I think it's such an important topic for a couple reasons. Number one, one of my great concerns in our culture right now is the way we talk with one another, the way we have conversations. It just seems to me over the last 20, 30 years in our culture, we've lost the ability to have a conversation with somebody that we might not agree with in a productive way. And I'm sure you all agree with me as well. It's become very difficult in our times to dialogue with somebody that you might have a disagreement with or have a difficult conversation with. The art and science of learning to have a conversation is one of the most important skills you can have in life. Even with my kids, one of the things I hope they leave our home with is the ability to communicate, the ability to have a conversation with somebody. And it is a skill. And there are insights in how to do it better. And I just feel like it could change our world if we talk to one another better. And I think you'd agree with me, too, whether it be your personal relationships, a political discussion, a religious discussion, as a leader in your company, having a conversation about creating ideas or a new direction, whatever it might be, learning to be a better conversationalist. And I have the perfect guest. His name is Chuck Wisner. Chuck's got a book out right now called the Art of Conscious Conversations, Transforming how we talk, listen, and interact. And I'm really excited to get into this Topic. So, Chuck, welcome to the show.

[Chuck Wisner]

Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

[Ed Mylett]

It really is for me. You know, a lot of times, of all these people on my show that have these huge followings or guests, you know, that, you know, have major notoriety. And I've always found that oftentimes it's the topics on my show that really move people. And more and more people are concerned about the way we talk with one another. And so I want to get right into it. How do you talk to somebody if it's a difficult conversation? One of the things I saw that you said is you ask in your writing, do your patterns of judging others reflect behaviors you don't like or want to recognize or won't recognize about yourself? So when we're in a difficult conversation with somebody, you know, maybe we disagree with them. I want to go to the hard stuff first, like, I'm a Republican and someone's a Democrat, or I'm a Democrat and someone's a Republican, something like that. You know, these hard conversations, what are some of the keys in being better at doing it? So it's actually a productive experience.

[Chuck Wisner]

There are definitely keys that we're going to talk about. And it's also important to know that when you're in a difficult conversation, both parties have to be willing to start with truth. And if we can't have a foundation of truth, then you're going to have a very. The conversation will remain difficult. There's opinions and there's facts and there's emotions, and we get all of those mixed up, right? And they all get discombobbled and jumbled up in our brain. But if we realize that my opinion is just my opinion and it's not the truth, then we can slowly. We can say, okay, what's driving my opinion? And we sort of can open our hand and go, this is why I'm thinking how I'm thinking. This is what my standards are. There's four archetypal questions in the book. This is what I'm worried about. This is my concern. Here's what I'd like. We can start to just open our hands and say, okay, I have an opinion. Let's dance with that. Let's see what we can learn from each other. That's a very different conversation with fists than fists coming at each other.

[Ed Mylett]

Yeah. You also say in the book that I've learned to do this myself is to fall in love with asking questions.

[Chuck Wisner]

Right.

[Ed Mylett]

When you're talking with somebody, whether you're a business leader and trying to create change in your company, or whether you're in an argument with a spouse or disagreement, or you got to talk about something different. Like, I've used. I've used politics as an example because it's the big one. Right? Right. Like, they're good, they're bad. I'm right, you're wrong. And the idea of making statements all the time and telling stories as opposed to asking questions.

[Chuck Wisner]

Right, right. And. And the, the idea of whether I'm doing it to myself and asking myself what's driving my opinion, what's driving my judgment, and why am I so hooked on the thing. Right. We can also, the questions help us, like, each question help us open someone else's hand because we can ask, well, what.

[Ed Mylett]

What do you.

[Chuck Wisner]

What do you really want? What do you. What do you desire here? What do you want out of this? What are your standards for measuring this. This opinion that you have? So our questions can literally help other people unlock and unfist, Right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Chuck Wisner]

And, and. But we aren't trained to ask questions. We're trained to have answers. That's one of the major dilemmas. And then we get into school and we're rewarded for raising our hand. And then we get into business and we're rewarded for being the smartest person in the room. Right? Right. And that's a counter to the. The opposite effect is asking questions.

[Ed Mylett]

Well, this notion of raising your hand was my next thing. So you're reading my mind. And I think one of the art forms of being a great conversationalist is actually the art of listening, and that's why questions matter so much. And you're precisely right. In school, the teacher's still talking and asking the question. We're taught we're rewarded. Raise your hand while they're still talking. And what that does to me. I want you to speak to this to me. What that does to me is it means I'm really not listening to what you're saying. I'm already thinking about what I'm going to say back to you. And my answer, or my judgment or my assessment about you, I. Most people are already raising their hand, you know, metaphorically, when most other people are still talking and they wonder, why am I not connecting with this person? Why can't we find common ground? Because while they're talking, you've got your hand raised already. I got the answer. I know the truth. I want to say something. And rather, finishing and letting them finish their statement, get in the game with

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[Chuck Wisner]

Yeah. So our brain is spinning. Our answer. And so there's no space, actually to absorb what's coming at us from the other person. Right? And. And part of that, that actually the main reason that is we are. We get addicted to our position, our ego and our identity. Gets addicted to, I believe this. And if I believe this is true, then that is. That defines who I am and that. That is often why we enter with fists or why we enter, you know, in defensively, you know, and. And can't just say, okay, I do have an opinion. I'm going to set that aside, and I'm going to see if I can explore really what. What's driving this other person's thinking.

[Ed Mylett]

That was a great conversation. And if you want to hear the full interview, be sure to follow the Ed Mylett show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. Here's an excerpt I did with our next guest. Hey, welcome back to the show, everybody. I'm honored to have this man here for the second time. The first time he was on the show, I sought him out, saying, please come on the show, because his book had made such an impact on. On me. And now he's got a new book out, by the way, before I introduce him, called Super Communicators, how to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. And it's a topic, as you all know, that I am fascinated by because I talk a lot about it on the show, except he's way more qualified than me. And the reason he's way more qualified than me is this guy is A Pulitzer Prize winning writer. He's a New York Times best selling author and he's a renowned expert on habits. And also now after reading his work, he's an expert on communication. So, Charles Duhig, welcome back to the show.

[Charles Duhigg]

Thank you, Ed, for having me on. This is such a treat for me.

[Ed Mylett]

Yeah, I love my brother. You're going to listen to a big brain today, everybody, on a topic that you need to know more about. I got to tell you why I love your book so much. We're just talking about kids off camera. There's a few things I want my kids to have left my house with. One, I want them to have some faith, which is their morals and ethics. I want them to have some work ethic, self confidence. And if I could give them a fourth thing, it would be the ability to be an outstanding communicator. And I just think it's one of the things that is the most important elements of life. I'm sure you agree.

[Charles Duhigg]

I think that's absolutely right. And I think the things that you mentioned before that are really important because if you, you could be a great communicator and if you don't have values, if you don't have discipline, then it's not necessarily gonna get you anyplace. But the difference between people who have those first three things and then don't know how to communicate is that they stall out at some point, right? They have trouble in their marriage, they have trouble communicating with their spouse or their partner. They oftentimes stall out at work because the thing that made them successful at work, once you become a manager, it's not just doing that. It's about helping other people learn how to do that. And also there's a huge amount of self discovery that comes from conversation, right? Like when I talk to you and you talk to me. We learn things about ourselves through what we say. And it takes someone talented, a super communicator to draw that out, to know how to, how to make the space for that.

[Ed Mylett]

That's interesting. You learn about yourself too. God didn't think about it that way, but you're right. You know, I, I almost feel like after I was reading your book and by the way, everybody, it is outstanding. This man does not write average books. He just doesn't. And he sells a lot of them for a reason. And I almost feel like after reading it, I think I thought this before, but almost your ability to communicate will be the cap on your life to some extent. It's the cap on your relay, the Intimacy level in your relationship, for example, to some extent is limited or enhanced by your ability to communicate. Non. Verbal cues. Verbal cues. Your ability to lead and move people in business, your family environment, friendships. I mean, the cap on your. Your success level in those areas is almost directly correlated to communication.

[Charles Duhigg]

I.

[Ed Mylett]

Absolutely.

[Charles Duhigg]

So my, My father passed away about six years ago and I went to his funeral and there were so many more people there. There were people that, like, I hardly remembered. Like, people. I was so surprised. And I was talking to them and I was like, you know, like, thank you for coming. And they would all say the same thing. They'd say, like, I loved talking to your dad. Right. That's why they showed up is because they had, they had this relate. They had a connection with him.

[Ed Mylett]

Do you think it's because of. I think one thing human beings have, Charles, is you're always making people feel something.

[Chuck Wisner]

Yeah.

[Ed Mylett]

Yet I think most people are oblivious to that fact. They're feeling something from you in a moment. Your interest level, your energy, your frequency, your trustworthiness, your ability to elevate them. So do you think with your dad, for example, it wasn't just, you know, talking with him, but it was how he made other people feel?

[Charles Duhigg]

That's exactly what it was. So. So sometimes when people ask me, like, who. How do you define a super communicator? The easiest answer is to say, okay, think of the person you would call if you were having a bad day. Right. Like you're having a terrible day. There's someone you call, you know they're going to make you feel better. Like. Like, who would that person be for you?

[Ed Mylett]

It would have been my dad.

[Charles Duhigg]

Okay, sure.

[Ed Mylett]

Before he passed away, that was. It came right to me. Call my dad.

[Charles Duhigg]

And my guess is that if I met your dad, what I would see is he's not the funniest person in your life. He's not the most charismatic person in your life. But what he did is he proved to you that he was listening to you, that he heard what you said. And then he. He reciprocated your vulnerability or your joy or your sadness. He shared it with you. And as a result, you walked away feeling like, what I'm experiencing, what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling. This is like, this is profound and this is real.

[Ed Mylett]

You're right.

[Charles Duhigg]

And it's been validated. And you don't need your dad to validate it. Like it's still real to you. But to have someone else feel like. Have them feel like they genuinely want to understand You. That feels wonderful. In fact, it's hardwired into our brain to feel wonderful. Yeah.

[Ed Mylett]

I just did this, and I did a podcast on it. So I'll ask you this. How much of communication do you think is actually the ability to listen correctly?

[Charles Duhigg]

A huge amount. A huge amount. So. And let me say that. That there's this thing about listening, which is when I'm talking, whatever you're doing, I'm probably not going to pay attention to it because I'm so. It's so cognitively intense to try and speak that even though I'm going to make eye contact with you and I'm going to kind of notice if you're frowning or smiling or whatever it is, I'm really not going to pick up on the signals you're sending me. So listening is not just hearing what the person is saying. It's what you do after they finish talking. Because if you do this thing where you prove to me that you've been listening, and in the psychology literature, this is actually referred to as looping, for understanding that, particularly if you have a conflict with someone, the best way to sort of bring the tension down is ask a question, repeat back what you hear the person says in your own words. And then step number three, which is the one we usually forget, is ask them if you got it right. And if I do that. So when you think about it. So I'm listening to you, I have to listen closely to you because I'm thinking I got to repeat back what you're saying in my own words. I got to process it. But most importantly, you know that I've been listening based on what I say after you're done speaking. And that's really what active listening is. It's about not just passively receiving. It's about amplifying.

[Ed Mylett]

Very good. That is really good.

[Charles Duhigg]

It's. I mean, and the thing is, it's so easy to do. Like, once I learned this, like, I find myself doing it all the time without even realizing it. Like, I'll be like, what I hear you saying is, and tell me if I'm getting this wrong. And, like, it just feels so natural,

[Ed Mylett]

like, it is totally automatic. It's so good to have somebody say that back to you. Right. Because you do get the feeling. With most people, I think they do two things. One, they're really more concerned with what they're about to say back to you.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yes.

[Ed Mylett]

And two, I call them verbal nudges where they're interrupting you too often or aha. Aha. Huh? Which you think is a form of agreement. But I think to some extent, sometimes you're almost saying, I got it. Okay, can I say something now?

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah.

[Ed Mylett]

That's nudging them to finish rather than letting them finish.

[Charles Duhigg]

That's it. I think that's exactly true. And I think that part of this is understanding what the goal of a conversation is.

[Ed Mylett]

Okay?

[Charles Duhigg]

So it's easy to go into a conversation and think the goal is to. To convince this person I'm right. Or maybe even the goal is just to come to agreement on something that's wrong. The goal of a conversation is simply to understand what the other person is trying to tell you. So that means that if I'm listening to you and you say something that I think is crazy, you wouldn't say this, but lizard people run the world, or whatever it is, I'm not going to agree with you, and I'm probably not going to convince you that you're wrong. But as long as I understand how you see the world, as long as I ask you a question, what's known as a deep question, where I say, why is this important? What is it about this that seems really meaningful and important to you? You're going to tell me something about who you are. I'm going to repeat back what you've told me about, like, I care about lizard people because I really think the elites of this world are, like. Are like, having this pernicious effect on the working class. I'm gonna repeat that back to you. I'm gonna ask you if I got it right. I'm not gonna agree with you and you're not gonna agree with me. But simply understanding each other means we have succeeded. And it feels good, right?

[Ed Mylett]

It does. I'm just thinking of, like, political discourse, you know, like, just really understand where they're coming from. I'm not gonna win this. I have to tell you, your work so good, because it's actually the part of conversations. I think it's why I have a podcast. I really enjoy not only understanding what somebody's saying, but also, like, why they're saying it. What's this come from? I'm in an Uber. I basically interview almost every driver ever had, right? But I love that by the end of a good 20 or 30 minute ride, I find out where these belief systems stem from, too. I mean, I was in one recently where this guy was way right. Like, way way right. And no matter what you believe politically, but I mean, I was like, whoa. And I'm like, trying to understand and try to understand And I've also had this conversation with someone who's way left. But it ended up that at the end, I found out that he had come from a communist country. He had actually had family that were murdered by communists. And it. Whether I agreed with him or not, that's not the point of this show. But I actually had a much deeper understanding of the basis from which he's formed these opinions, and I really felt connected with this person.

[Charles Duhigg]

Absolutely.

[Ed Mylett]

So you're right.

[Charles Duhigg]

Okay, so let me ask you a question, if you don't mind.

[Ed Mylett]

Sure.

[Charles Duhigg]

So when you're in that Uber, when you're having that, what's the second or third question you ask? Because. Because you could be like, hey, you know, where you from? Oh, I'm from Europe. Like, what are you asking next to get you from the shallow to the deep?

[Ed Mylett]

Oh, that's a really good question. I usually ask them. I open them up a little bit. I say, give me your craziest story.

[Charles Duhigg]

Oh, interesting.

[Ed Mylett]

So I actually asked them to give me one of their crazy ride stories. I'm actually fascinated by that. So it kind of opens them up and they get loose. I didn't do it tactically, but I found that, like, whoa, you're kidding me.

[Charles Duhigg]

That do that.

[Chuck Wisner]

And.

[Ed Mylett]

And then typically, for me, just because I'm most intrigued by it, I love to know about people's families, and I actually also think people love to talk about their families typically, too. So usually I'll ask them, are you married? Do you have children? And I know that sounds like basic stuff, but I find for me that that's an entree into learning an awful lot about these folks.

[Charles Duhigg]

What I love about that is that what. And I think you got this by intuition. So these deep questions, if we ask people deep questions. Deep questions are things that ask us about our values, our beliefs, or our experiences. So what's the craziest ride you've ever given someone is asking this guy about his experiences. Tell me about your kids. Like, what are your kids? Like? At some point, he could just be like, I have two kids. But at some point, you're probably gonna say, like, oh, you know, do they like school? What do they like? Where do they go to school? Are you worried about their future? You're gonna ask something that's gonna get him to reveal to you who he really is.

[Ed Mylett]

You're right. And by the way, I always look at people like, I. This is an overall belief system. This person's a gift. I want to open them up. It's really how I Look at them. And in this guy, I love that. I just got to tell you, in this guy's case, really quick, just an interjection. This dude was amazing. It turns out that the reason he's driving Uber is he has a daughter at Harvard and a son at Stanford. Right. And he's putting them through school. And if you knew where this man came from, it was remarkable. And the pride he had in his children and his wife, that they had raised them and they were there. And it became this like really beautiful conversation where not only did I admire, I was like, whoa, this is incredible. The life you've built, the sacrifice you're making. And he had a full time day job, drove, and it became kind of this conversation. We talked about our children. And by the time I was done, I actually really had a connection with this man that I probably talking about him on my podcast.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah, right.

[Ed Mylett]

So let me ask you this, okay? The details of the work guys, we're going to get into now, there are really three conversation types. Okay. I didn't know there were. I was kind of oblivious to this. But I think just this alone would enlighten people. So they know which conversation they're in. They can identify it.

[Chuck Wisner]

Absolutely.

[Ed Mylett]

Share some of that.

[Charles Duhigg]

This is a big discovery from the last decade, and we're kind of living through this golden age of understanding communication for the first time in a new way. And the first thing that researchers have found is that we think of a discussion as being about one thing. We're talking about my book or we're talking about your kids. But actually, every conversation is made up. Every discussion is made up of different kinds of conversations that ebb and flow. And most of those different kinds of conversations fall into one of three buckets. There's a practical conversation where we're talking about plans or making decisions together, or we're fixing problems. Politics is often this. There's an emotional conversation where if I tell you how I'm feeling about something, I do not want you to fix it for me. I want you to acknowledge that you've heard it and I want you to tell me to sort of be vulnerable with me. And then there's a social conversation. And a social conversation is about how we relate to each other in society, how we think other people see us, how our identities. Right. How our identities shape how we see the world in different and interesting ways. And the key is there's this thing known as the matching principle, which is if I'm having an emotional conversation and you respond with a practical conversation Even though both of what we're saying is legit, we're not going to hear each other.

[Ed Mylett]

That is outstanding.

[Charles Duhigg]

This happens at home with my spouse all the time. I come home, I've had a tough day at work. I'm complaining about my boss. My wife says she solves the problem. She says, why don't you go and take him out to lunch? You get to know each other better. And instead of being like, that's really good advice. I'm like, you don't understand. You're not listening to me.

[Ed Mylett]

Very good, Charles.

[Chuck Wisner]

So.

[Charles Duhigg]

So if she matches me and then invites me to match her, then we're having the same kind of conversation. Then we can hear each other.

[Ed Mylett]

You just explained 25 years of problem. No, because I'm coming home to an emotional conversation, and I'm. I'm not in one sometimes.

[Charles Duhigg]

What about.

[Ed Mylett]

What advice would you give to somebody who I. We were talking about socially? I just moved, and you were asking about the move, and I said. I said, you know, I kind of revert back to myself socially, and I think I would categorize myself. It would surprise most people listening to the show. But I'm very quiet and very shy, and I find a lot of public speakers are, by the way, a lot of entertainers privately are very. I'd call an introvert.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah.

[Ed Mylett]

You have any advice for an introvert as it comes to communication like this?

[Charles Duhigg]

So I think one of the things I heard you just say when you were talking about that Uber driver is you got into the car and he had one identity, which is right wing, and you asked him some deep questions that were easy to ask. They didn't seem intimate. And he started telling you about his other identities. And once he complicated himself, once he said, look, I'm not just one thing. I'm three and four and five things. All of a sudden, it's easy to feel close to that person, because some of those things he is. You are, too. And so I think when it comes to introverts or when you move to a new place, like, one of the things that I like to do is you meet someone at a party or a barbecue or whatever it is. And, like, I often ask them, you know, what do you do for a living? And then I'll often say, you know, they say, I'm a lawyer. And I say, you know, do you love practicing the law? Like, did you just. What made you decide to become a lawyer? Like, when was the moment you decided. Decided to become a lawyer? What inevitably they say is something that tells me about their other identities, which is, I became a lawyer because I saw my dad get arrested and I wanted to fight for the. For the underdog. Or I became a lawyer because we were poor and I wanted to always have enough money. Or I became a lawyer because I love intellectual stimulation. Like, think of those. Those three answers just told me so much about those different people. And at that point, I can say to them, yeah, I thought I grew up poor, too. Like, I understand what that's like. And now suddenly we feel safe with each other. I think this isn't necessarily true for introverts, but when we're in new social situations and we were talking about how hard it is to make friends when you don't have friends in a place, the thing that often stops us is just a little mild anxiety.

[Ed Mylett]

You're right. Oh, I at least smiled with me. Yeah, yeah, me.

[Charles Duhigg]

And. And how are we going to start the conversation? How are we going to get out of the conversation?

[Ed Mylett]

How, like, okay, that's mine. Okay, that's mine to be. And candidly, so I. I love that we're going there. My. I'm okay opening a conversation. How are you? You know what? You know, for me, it's, how does this end? How does this end? I bet everybody driving or listening, like, now that's something I would like to know more about. If I have the most awkward finishes of conversations of any dude you've ever met in your life, I'm like, okay, well, hey. And I usually end up the conversation with some sort of BS or something. You're like, I'm going to use the restroom. I don't know how to get away from you.

[Charles Duhigg]

I have to go refresh my glass. Still half full. So. Okay, so actually, Daniel Gilbert at Harvard actually did an entire study trying to figure out how people end conversations. Yeah. And do. Does the other person want to end at the same time you do? And what he found was two things. Number one, he found that you think, I want you to end the conversation because I'm getting bored. And actually, I am enjoying this conversation. We do a difficult job of gauging the other person's interest in the conversation. But then sometimes we want to end the conversation. Right? And so this is what super communicators do. They forecast it without committing to it immediately. So they say something like, man, this is so interesting. I totally got to go, like, freshen up my drink. But before I do, let me ask you X. Because oftentimes the. The end of the conversation feels hard because it feels awkward. Yes, but if you've already set the table and you're like, you're like, I gotta step away. But this is so fascinating. Let me ask you one more thing. Then when they're done answering the question, you're like, oh, man, thank you so much. And you just turn away. That's not awkward.

[Ed Mylett]

I love that. That's. That's pre. Framing the conclusion.

[Charles Duhigg]

That's exactly right.

[Ed Mylett]

Very good. That's exactly right. A lot of what you're saying. I'm listening. Is it has to do with the question. Questions you're asking. I think a lot of people look at conversations or communication like, what am I telling somebody? What am I saying? And I'm sure there's an element of that that we'll get to in a minute too. But so far, a lot of the things you've been suggesting involve questions you're asking somebody. And I have to say this to you, I'm amazed how many people I talk to in social environments and business environments that don't ask any questions.

[Charles Duhigg]

I know, I know. And I can't figure out. I think that for some of them, they're just not pretty practiced at it. And it is like, that's the thing about super communication. Anyone can be a super communicator. It's literally just a set of skills. Like, you just have to practice the skills and make them into habits. Nobody's born knowing how to do this, but I have the same. It drives me crazy. I ask question after question, and then they answer, and then they stop talking and they're waiting for my next question. I'm like, so here's the thing that you're exactly right. 50%, if not more of a good conversation is asking good questions. But then something happens. There's a difference between a conversation and an interrogation. Right. Or an interview. And this gets into what's known as emotional reciprocity. And emotional reciprocity is basically one of the strongest impulses that all humans have. If somebody engages in emotional reciprocity, we can't help but feel a little bit closer and a little bit more trusting of them. So emotional reciprocity says if you say something vulnerable and then I recognize, I acknowledge that vulnerability, but I also show that I can be vulnerable, then we're going to feel like we can trust each other. And that's about speaking. So that doesn't mean if you say, my dad passed away, I should be like, oh, I understand completely, because my aunt passed away 12 years ago. That's stealing the spotlight from you. Right.

[Ed Mylett]

Okay.

[Charles Duhigg]

But if you say, my dad passed away, and I say, oh, man, I. Like, I know how hard that can be. Like, tell me about your dad. What was he like?

[Ed Mylett]

Oh, gosh, that was good, right?

[Charles Duhigg]

And then, like. And then. And what I'm signaling to you is, a, I'm interested in you. I want to hear from you. I want to understand you. But, B, you learned something about me. And if you're interested, you can. You can say, like. Like, tell me. Tell me how you know about this. Like, what happened?

[Ed Mylett]

What about being. Being the server first? Serving the vulnerability first?

[Charles Duhigg]

Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a guy named Nick Epley at the University of Chicago who's in the book. And, like, Nick is so good at this. Every conversation I've ever had with him, he says something in the conversation near the start of the conversation that feels so intimate. And as a result, I'm just like, I love this guy. Like, I just want to talk to him. And again, when I look at the transcripts, because I'm oftentimes talking to him for reporting, and when I read the transcript, it doesn't seem too intimate. It doesn't seem overly intimate. But he says things like, you know, hey, Nick, how are you doing? Like, instead of saying, oh, fine, says something like, yo, it's great. I, like, went to my son's soccer game this weekend. It was. And, like, we adopted these kids from Ethiopia. And, like, just watching them now as these, like, strong young men, like, it was. It was a great weekend, brother. Right? And he's offered that up. And at that point, I'm like, man, I'll tell you all about myself.

[Ed Mylett]

Let me tell you about me. I think I also trust you more when you do that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Absolutely.

[Ed Mylett]

I think when someone's so surface all the time. And by the way, this applies for a lot of you that are in sales, too.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yes.

[Ed Mylett]

Being willing to be a little bit vulnerable. Not always the expert, but a little bit vulnerable, a little bit transparent, a little bit revealing. I believe it's one. I think it's just a better way to live. But it does bond and connect you. It makes you human. Oftentimes when you're in sales, people look at you like you're almost their adversary. Like, I can't trust this guy. That's this lady. But when you begin to show some vulnerability and some authenticity, I think that's when you start to break down the barriers. And I found that in my own life, over and over, trust is huge.

[Charles Duhigg]

Right. I mean, communication is human's superpower. Like, it's the reason, as a species, we have been so successful is that we can talk to each other and we can build. We can share knowledge, we can build families and communities. All of that is based on communication. And communication over the millennia has been hardwired into our brain. And so, as a result, when. When somebody communicates well with me, I trust them. Because I literally have 2 million years of evolution in my head that says trust the guy who it seems like can wants to understand you, and that is sharing with you.

[Ed Mylett]

I agree. This is so good. This is probably gonna go a little longer than normal, guys.

[Charles Duhigg]

No, I love it. I really love.

[Ed Mylett]

Yeah, right. I just think. I hope those of you that are listening or watching understand the importance in your life, as I said earlier, of getting good at this, because it's the cap on your bliss, it's the cap on your laughter, it's the cap on your intimacy. It's the cap on your influence and persuasion.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah, absolutely. What.

[Ed Mylett]

What about difficult conversations?

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah.

[Ed Mylett]

Are those different in nature? And are they. I mean, having to, you know, say, hey, listen, your job performance isn't very good, or I'm frustrated with you, or, you know, something that's, you know, you're going into it, and on, gosh, I wish I didn't have to have this conversation, but I do.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah. Or sometimes they catch you off guard, right? We're like, I'm talking about one thing, and all of a sudden I realize you're furious at me. Like, I didn't pick up on that until just now. And so the answer is, they abide by the same rules. But the fact that you're in conflict changes the context enormously. Because we were just talking about trust, Right. I can establish trust by. By sharing something about myself. But if you go into a conversation where there's conflict, trust is already out the window. Right. Like, you're. You are. Your fight or flight is going off in your head like crazy. You can't trust someone easily just because, like, they ask you a question. So, and this has been a focus of a lot of study, how do we make conversations in conflict better? And there's basically two things. The first one is I mentioned this looping for understanding. Right? Asking a question, repeating back what you heard, and then asking if you got it right. That's enormously powerful in conflict. Because the first thing, the first suspicion I have, if you disagree with me and we're in conflict with each other, is you're waiting your turn to speak. You're not hearing what I'm saying. Right. You're just waiting there and, like, I'm going to tell you my piece and then you're going to just bulldoze over me and I'm going to bulldoze back. So if you interrupt that by proving you are listening, using looping for understanding to prove I really want to understand what you're saying. Help me understand. I'm taking a huge amount of mistrust off the table. The second thing that often happens in conflict, and this happens a lot in marriages, this actually comes from marriage therapy and studies of marriage therapy, is that it is natural when we feel threatened to want to control things, and the easiest thing to control is the other person. So you tell me your thing and I'm like, no, no, no, you don't know the evidence. Let me show you the evidence. You say something and you're like, I'm not even going to listen to this. I try and control you. I try and tell you what you should believe, what you should feel. That's toxic, right? In a marriage. That is the thing that destroys marriage. The alternative is I have a need for control, you have a need for control. We feel threatened. Can we find things to control together? So, for instance, can we control the timing of this fight instead of having it at 2 in the morning? Can we wait till it's 10am and we're both a little bit more rested? Can we control ourselves? Can I let you know. I'm going to take a second before I speak and I'm going to think about what you just said. Can I show you that I'm trying to control myself and invite you to control yourself? And the third thing is we can control the boundaries of the conflict itself. So one of the most toxic patterns in marriages is this thing called kitchen sinking, where we start arguing about, like, where we're gonna go for New Year's, and then like, five minutes later it's like, and your mother hates me and you don't earn enough money. And like, why are you such a jerk all the time? Right? So a fight about one thing becomes a fight about everything. The healthy way to do that is to say we need to have a fight. Like, we have a disagreement on something. Let's control the boundaries of it. We're talking about New Year's Eve. If my mother comes up and your money comes up, like, we're just gonna set it aside. That's another conversation, another day.

[Ed Mylett]

Very good.

[Charles Duhigg]

But then when we're controlling these three things, we're controlling ourselves, we're controlling the environment, and we're Controlling the boundaries of the fight or the. The conflict. We're controlling those as partners. Right. We're on the same side of the table. We might not agree on the topic we're discussing.

[Ed Mylett]

Right.

[Charles Duhigg]

But you and I are partners now in controlling the right things in this fight instead of trying to control each other.

[Ed Mylett]

That's outstanding. When you're talking about relationships and family, where my first off, I've made those mistakes.

[Charles Duhigg]

Me too.

[Ed Mylett]

I'm a pretty good kitchen sinker, now that you term it that way.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah.

[Ed Mylett]

And so I think I've gotten better at it. I also think the longer you're with somebody, you have more stuff in the sink. And so it's even more important to avoid that and have that control of the parameters around the conversation.

[Charles Duhigg]

Right. How long have you been married for?

[Ed Mylett]

26 years.

[Charles Duhigg]

Okay, so I'm coming up on 20. And I'm sure this has happened to you, but tell me if I'm getting this wrong, which is there are these things. Literally, I can say two words, and I know the entire fight in my wife's head. Right. It's like. It's like. And sometimes I don't even mean to say them. I'm just like. I, like. I'm like. I'm like, well, you know, it's because, like, I earn more money than you. And then I'm like, oh, nuts.

[Ed Mylett]

There we go.

[Charles Duhigg]

I just stepped in it. Like, all to kitchen sink it. All I had to say was literally three words.

[Ed Mylett]

You brought the whole thing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Charles Duhigg]

And so the immediate thing I do is I'm like. I'm like, I'm sorry.

[Ed Mylett]

Whoops. Yeah, exactly.

[Charles Duhigg]

I did not mean to do that.

[Ed Mylett]

Yeah.

[Charles Duhigg]

Like, tell me what you're feeling, because I want to. I want to give you a chance. But, like, you know what?

[Ed Mylett]

I've gotten better at that, Charles, with my kids, too, of saying, you know what? I'm sorry. Let me take that right back. Whereas before, I'd almost double down, or they didn't really feel it that bad. It'll. It'll be brushed under. And now sometimes you just have to, in the moment, go, I'm gonna yank that one back.

[Charles Duhigg]

And not only are you connecting with them, but think about the modeling you're doing, right? You're teaching them how to communicate with other people. Like, I'm absolutely certain your kids are gonna copy that without even realizing it comes from dad.

[Ed Mylett]

Yeah. You're making me think of young people when you say that. I want you to give you. Can we teach this to young people? I'll Tell you why I ask.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah.

[Ed Mylett]

I have great conversations with my kids, Bella, don't take this the wrong way, sweetheart, when you're listening to this, but lately with my daughter, I love doing kind of dates with my daughter and I. She's a. She's a sophomore in college, and I watch her with other people. She's quite the conversationalist, but with me. And she's not disinterested. But when we're talking, there's a lot of. Yep. Yeah, right, huh. And at one point, we were taking a walk on the beach over Christmas, and I said, bella, this is kind of a serve and volley type thing here. Like, I serve and you return the serve, and then I hit the ball back to you, and you hit it back to me to your point of ask me something.

[Charles Duhigg]

Right.

[Ed Mylett]

You know, so. So it made me wonder, is there anything different? And maybe she's not even quite at that age I'm talking about, but if I have an 8, a 9, a 10 year old, I. I'm always blown away when I meet a child who is a tremendous communicator, makes eye contact, shakes her hand. Mr. Mylet, how are you? What do you do? Like, when they ask, I'm like the automatically, what? I think these are great parents.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yes.

[Ed Mylett]

I think immediately these are tremendous parents. So is there anything with young people that can. That these skills can be taught? Anything unique that you would say that goes with young people? Absolutely.

[Charles Duhigg]

So I think that there's two things. Let's talk about the older kids first, like your daughter's age. So I had a friend whose daughter just went to college, and he had a conversation with her before he left, which I've now imitated, and I love. He sat down with her and he was like, look, you're definitely gonna call us when something important happens in your life, but if that's the only time you call, then by definition, you're not calling us that frequently. Like, we're gonna lose contact with each other. So what I want you to do is I want you to call me for the unimportant things. You had a bad day, but it's not a big deal. You ate something good for lunch. You're working on this paper, and it's kind of interesting. We don't have to talk for more than five or seven minutes, right? But I want you to call me and tell me about the unimportant stuff, because the important stuff will take care of itself. And so my son went off to boarding school. He's at boarding school, right? Now here in California and it's his first year there, he's in 10th grade and I told him this. He calls me every day. I actually talk more to this kid with him at boarding school than I did when he was at home.

[Ed Mylett]

Yes.

[Charles Duhigg]

So for older kids, that's the thing is to say this is a priority conversation is something none of us are born super communicators. We can all learn how to do it. This is a skill you should practice because it's important. For the younger kids, it's a little bit harder, right?

[Ed Mylett]

Yes.

[Charles Duhigg]

But I think for them, this is where the deep questions become so powerful. So my younger one, same thing. How was school today? Good. What'd you learn? Nothing. Right. And so some of the advice is like, be like, oh, well, you know, did pirates show up today? And you can do that a couple times, but at some point if you ask them a question where you're asking them to tell you who they are. I know that you said that you like science more than you like math. I'm just wondering, like, why, like, what is it? Was it about science? Like, I mean, is science important to you? Like, you told me you wanted to hang out with your friend and I'm just wondering, like, what is it? What do you like about that friend? Like, what is special to him? What's great about that is that first of all, it's clearly not judgmental. Right. Whereas if I'm like, what'd you learn today? I'm kind of judging.

[Ed Mylett]

Good point.

[Charles Duhigg]

You better should have learned something today.

[Ed Mylett]

Very good point.

[Charles Duhigg]

But second of all, I'm matching him and I'm allowing him to set the stage.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Touch.

[Charles Duhigg]

It's not that he's playing on my ball court. I'm saying to him, tell me your ball court. And that's powerful.

[Ed Mylett]

You do a lot of gestures when you talk.

[Chuck Wisner]

Oh yeah.

[Ed Mylett]

I don't know if you noticed that. Well, you're expressive in your face. This may not even be in the book, but I want to ask you about it. So you're expressive with your face, you use your hands. And I'm wondering if non verbal cues are part of being a super communicator. Because I've had people say, I'm really excited to be here. And I'm like, you should tell your face, you should email your face and let them know that you're excited to be here. So I think a lot of it is I'm reading things you're not saying when I talk to somebody as well.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah. And I think that's exactly right. And, and to be super communicator, you don't have to have nonverbal. Right. Because there's people who like on the phone are fantastic. If you're good at one thing, you're usually good at everything. But, but similarly with you, like you, you clearly telegraph non verbally or non linguistically. You telegraph your interest, you telegraph what you're hearing and that's very, very powerful. And there's a kind of a science behind it and we've learned a lot of it from looking at laughter. So the interesting thing about laughter is studies show that about 80% of the time when all of us laugh, it is not in response to something funny.

[Ed Mylett]

Okay, Right.

[Charles Duhigg]

So we've laughed a couple of times in this interview, but I haven't said anything that funny. Right. Like you just laughed. I'm not that funny a guy. So what happens when we laugh? What a laugh actually is, is it's saying to the other person, I want to connect with you. I'm going to show you that I want to connect with you. And then when they laugh back and 90% of the time when I laugh, the person I'm talking to will laugh back. They're saying, I want to connect back.

[Chuck Wisner]

That's tremendous.

[Charles Duhigg]

So that's a non linguistic communication. And what I love is actually NASA. For a time. I was going to ask this.

[Ed Mylett]

Yeah. So glad. Yeah.

[Charles Duhigg]

So they were trying to figure out how to find emotionally intelligent astronauts.

[Ed Mylett]

Yeah, you're going.

[Charles Duhigg]

And, and like the problem is everyone who applies to be an astronaut, if you make it to the final stages, you're, you're like a golden boy or girl. Right?

[Ed Mylett]

Like thousand percent.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah. You know how to answer every question. You've practiced everything. And they're like, we can't figure out who's actually emotionally intelligent and who fakes it really, really well. But when they're in space on a six month mission, the difference is going to matter a lot. Huge.

[Ed Mylett]

Yeah.

[Charles Duhigg]

So this one psychologist, he started realizing, if I pay attention to how people laugh, most importantly, do they match my laughter? So he would come into a room and he would accidentally spill papers. Accidentally. He actually did it on purpose. And then he would laugh uproariously and he would watch what that candidate would do. Some candidates would be like, ha ha. Because you know you're supposed to laugh. Right. And then other people would be like, let me help you with that. Like I. The astronauts who matched him not just on laughter, but he would tell a sad story and see if the other person, if the other person empathize if they, if they engaged in reciprocity, if they asked him questions about it. So that's non linguistic, but it tells us whether that person wants to connect. And that's ultimately, I think when I'm making gestures, I'm inviting you to. I'm inviting you in. Right. I'm saying like, yes, like here, here I am. Like, I want you to see what I'm seeing.

[Ed Mylett]

I hope everybody's getting out of this is like, these are skills that can be learned. There's an art and a science to this. You said, I'm glad you asked. And I was going to ask you about the NASA thing. You also said emotional intelligence. So I just feel like that's at the root of what we're talking about here. So how big of a component is just being sort of, I think also let me say this. So emotionally aware is another word that I would use as well. Emotionally aware. It's a part of having emotional intelligence. Do you agree with that?

[Charles Duhigg]

Absolutely. So this phrase emotional intelligence is actually kind of a misnomer because it makes us think. It's like iq, right? We're either born with it or you're not. But it's not. Emotional intelligence is emotional awareness. If I say to myself, and I train myself to say, a priority is noticing when someone else is feeling something and matching that and giving them the space for that. That is emotional intelligence. That's the thing that's going to make, make it feel like you understand them, that you can empathize with them. And it's, it's, it's not hard. Right. It's just about making it a priority.

[Ed Mylett]

Yeah, there's a, there's in the book a lot of examples of that. There's actually just great stories in the book. Give me one. Because I want them to get the book. So I don't want to do the whole book, but give me one story from the book that's sort of illustrative of just you thought one of the more interesting stories in the book. So they have an understanding. Because what's great about the way Charles writes at this point book is that there's like points and tactics and then I like the story to sort of reinforce it that May and I. For me, facts tell, stories sell, I remember stories. And so I like the way that you've weaved these into the work.

[Charles Duhigg]

And that's why there's so many stories in there, is because it's. They're so much easier to remember. So one of my favorite Stories is. Is early in the book. It's about Jim Lawler, the CIA agent.

[Chuck Wisner]

So good.

[Charles Duhigg]

So Jim. Jim is this guy who I've talked to a number of times. He.

[Ed Mylett]

He's.

[Charles Duhigg]

He's awesome. He. He became a CIA officer when he was in his 30s, and he wanted this so bad. He, like. He struggled for the. Like, he just ran after this so hard. It was like he was desperate to be a CIA officer. They accept him. They send him off to training, and then they send him to Europe to recruit foreign assets, and he finds out he's the worst recruiter on earth. Like, literally, he would go to, like, parties, and he's. And, like, he couldn't make conversation. He would, like, try and buddy up with people, and they're like, you're a spy, aren't you? You're trying to get me to be a spy. They're like, I'm gonna report you to the authorities. You're gonna get deported. So he's, like, freaking out because he's like, I'm terrible at this. And then someone in his office says, look, there's this woman coming into town. She's from the Middle East. She works for the Foreign Ministry. Why don't you get to know her a little bit and see if there's anything there? So he bumps into her at a restaurant the next day, right? Bumps. And he introduces himself as an oil speculator, strikes up a conversation, takes her to lunch. The next day, they start sightseeing together. He sort of develops a little bit of relationship. He goes and he says to his boss, I think I'm recruiting this woman. I think she's gonna be an asset for us. And then he and his boss is like, that's fantastic. I'm glad to hear it. He goes. He has dinner with this woman, Fatma, and he says, I'm not an oil speculator. I work for the CIA. Now, Fatma had been telling him she comes from a. He never told me which nation, but it's pretty obvious which one it is, right? She comes from a nation that recently had a religious theocracy revolution. And so the fundamentalists have all taken over, and she hates it. She's like, they're making women wear hijabs. They're telling us we can't go to college. I want to fight this, but I don't know how. Jim Lawler says to her the most practical thing possible. He's like, we want the same thing you do. We want to free the people of your country. We want to empower women, work for Me for the CIA. And she grabs a table and starts shaking her head, and she starts crying, and she goes, no, Ab. No, I'm not gonna do it. And just has a meltdown. And she says, they kill people in my country for doing this. I cannot believe that you have put me at risk simply by striking up a friendship. Because if they ever find out you're in the CIA, they're gonna think I'm in the CIA. And she just. She just bolts. And Lawler's like, ah, I'm terrible at this. Like, I'm such a bad recruiter. So he goes back to his boss and he tells him what happened. His boss is like, dude, I already told Washington, D.C. you recruited her as a spy. Like, you're gonna get fired if you can't close the deal on this. This is your last chance. That's why we gave it to you. So Jim spends all this time trying to figure out, how do I. What do I do? And he. He keeps on calling Fatima. And eventually she picks up and he invites her to go to dinner a couple nights before she's going to fly back home. And she says yes because he says he's taking her to an expensive restaurant. And he has a notebook full. Full of ideas on how to convert her. And he knows none of them are going to work. You cannot trick someone into taking a suicidal risk. It's just not going to. So he goes to dinner, and she's really down. Cause she's like, you know, I came to Europe. I thought I was gonna learn something about how to be more myself or how to change the world. And I'm just going home, and I'm the same person. And what he starts trying to do is cheer her up. He tells her little stories. He reminisces about when they went sightseeing together. And she just gets more and more glum. And finally dessert comes, and they're kind of by themselves at the table. And Jim thinks to himself, like, should I try to, like, recruit her again? And he's like, if I do that, she's literally going to stand up and walk away. So what he decides to do is. He decides, like, this isn't going to work. I'm giving up. I'm just going to have a real conversation. I'm going to be honest. And he starts saying to her, look, I know how you feel. Because I feel exactly the same way. I, like, I wanted this job my entire life. And it turns out I'm terrible at it. I am so disappointed in myself. And I don't know how I'm gonna go home and tell my dad that, like, I failed. I got fired by the CIA. And he talks this way. Now, what he's doing, obviously, without even realizing it, is he's matching her. He's matching, right? She was. She was glum, and he was trying to cheer her up. That's not matching. Yep, he was matching her. And she's. She's listening to this, and she starts crying. And he's like, I'm such a jerk. And in the CIA, you have to report every conversation, so he's going to have to write up a memo. And he's like, those guys are going to fire me within seconds. Like, they're just going to laugh. And he reaches over and he pats her arm, and he's like, I'm so sorry. I did not mean to make you cry. I am sorry. And she says, no, no, I think I can do this. And then. And he's so inexperienced, he actually. The first things out of his mouth is like, no, no, no, you don't have to do that. Like, you don't have to, like. Because he wasn't trying to manipulate her. He was just trying to.

[Ed Mylett]

He finally wasn't.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah, he finally wasn't trying to manipulate her. And he's like, no, no, no. I don't want to put you at risk. You don't have to do it. And she's like. She says, no, no, what you want is important. I think we can do this together. So for the first time, she was able to hear him. She was able to hear all those things that he had said over weeks and weeks and weeks about helping the women of her country. She couldn't hear it until he matched her. Next day, she goes to a safe house. She gets trained in covert communications and other stuff. She's the best source in the Middle east for the next 20 years.

[Ed Mylett]

Unbelievable.

[Charles Duhigg]

And Jim Lawlor becomes one of the top recruiters in the entire CIA. He teaches it today.

[Ed Mylett]

It's one of the best stories ever.

[Charles Duhigg]

I love that story. Let's go.

[Ed Mylett]

I'm gonna pick it apart a little so people understand the dynamic in there. So when you say matching, was it that she was in an emotional conversation and he wasn't? Is that what you mean by that?

[Charles Duhigg]

That's a huge part of it.

[Ed Mylett]

Okay. He was also vulnerable, but he was also vulnerable.

[Charles Duhigg]

So she was not. Not only was she in an emotional conversation, but he was listening to the type of emotion that she was transmitting.

[Ed Mylett]

Right.

[Charles Duhigg]

Instead of saying, like, oh, you shouldn't feel Bad. I'm going to cheer you up. He was saying, like, look, you feel bad, like, let's just acknowledge that. And that matching feels good because it feels like someone's hearing us.

[Ed Mylett]

I think it's a huge thing. I don't ever like saying gender specific stuff because I don't believe it. But I do think by and large those two elements, women are better at naturally meaning. I think they're more naturally vulnerable in a conversation than a man can be. I just, and I don't even like saying this, but I just, I think in general, most people would agree with me. And then secondly, I think men try to fix things often, more often, so that when there is an emotional conversation you're in, we just want to fix it or solve the problem or be the savior or be valuable or be important rather than just be with somebody and acknowledge their emotion.

[Charles Duhigg]

Always men and women, right?

[Ed Mylett]

Sure. It's not. It's definitely not. But it's more prevalent, I think.

[Charles Duhigg]

And I think what's happening there is we're falling back on what feels comfortable to us. Right?

[Ed Mylett]

It is, for sure.

[Charles Duhigg]

So if you're saying something emotional and I get super practical and it pisses you off, it's not so much that, like, I actually think we should be practical. It's that I'm uncomfortable with emotion.

[Ed Mylett]

There you go.

[Charles Duhigg]

And so I'm shying. I'm going back to my safe place.

[Ed Mylett]

There you go.

[Charles Duhigg]

And actually that safe place is emotional. Right. Like, like, like the reason I'm trying to solve your problem is like, it really bothers me that you're upset. I don't know how to deal with the fact that you're upset. I want to make you feel better. I feel like that's my job and I feel like I'm letting you down and myself down. Like that is emotional. Right?

[Ed Mylett]

Right.

[Charles Duhigg]

I'm just, I'm just disguising it as a practical conversation because that's my, that's my safe space.

[Ed Mylett]

That's my pattern. That's how I hide. Yeah, that's a zillion percent. Right? I. I told you we're gonna go a bit long, so we're gonna.

[Charles Duhigg]

So absolutely.

[Ed Mylett]

Okay, let me ask you this. This is a hard one. And, and so I keep using the term non verbal. I've used that. Let me, let me couch it a little differently.

[Charles Duhigg]

Okay.

[Ed Mylett]

Literally non verbal. So types of communication that are not done verbally, meaning mail, male written, email, text, whatever I have found. For me, if I be transparent with people, I feel like I've I'm a pretty darn good verbal communicator. I've also found my friends that are hyperverbal people in general, again, another generality, aren't so good in the written word. And for some reason when I write or text, it comes across as harsh, curt, sometimes aloof. I. My writing style does not make the impact in text or email that my verbal style does. And I, I'm really not very good at that. So what about tips or keys on that?

[Charles Duhigg]

So what's going on there? So, so it's interesting, if we were having this conversation about 100 years ago, a little bit under 100 years ago, when phones first became popular, what we would be talking about, and there were all these articles that said this, no one will ever be able to communicate on the telephone. Well, because unless you can see someone, you're not going to figure out what's going on in their voice. You're, you're not like, like telephone communication is basically going to be for like, sending over, like, grocery orders. Now, you and I are both Gen X, right? Like when we were kids, we were on the phone for like seven hours a night. 100% I can have, I have a friendship. I have friendships where I only talk to the person on the phone.

[Ed Mylett]

So do I. And I still remember the phone numbers of my friends when I was a kid. I don't know anybody's phone number now, but I know Andy Queren's phone number. Yes.

[Charles Duhigg]

Right, right.

[Ed Mylett]

It's like in there, right? It's true.

[Charles Duhigg]

And so what's interesting is if we were to watch ourselves talking on the phone, what we would find is that we behave a little bit differently on the phone. When you're on the phone, people tend to over enunciate because they know that they can't see us. Right. We tend to explain ourselves a little bit more. And when we make a joke, we laugh faster to let the other person know it's a joke. We know that they don't have the visual signal, and so we're trying to compensate by giving them more audio. Now the thing is, we've been talking on the phones for over 100 years. We've been communicating face to face for millennia. The first email was sent in 1982. Right. Most people didn't get an email account until the late 90s. We basically have 20 years of learning how to, how to communicate digitally. We have not, though the rules about how that channel is different have not become intuitive yet. So the solution is we have to think about it more when we're texting or emailing and we have to say to ourselves, okay, and these are the tips. When I am online and I'm communicating that way, politeness matters a lot more than when I'm face to face, face. And study after study has shown this that if you say please and thank you in an email, there's like 70% higher response rate.

[Ed Mylett]

Okay, because.

[Charles Duhigg]

Because I need to signal it, right? If I'm. Now, if I'm texting you, I can be short. But if I send you an email and I treat it like a text, unless we're good friends, that's my problem. Like, it's gonna, it's gonna rub you the wrong way, right? So part of it is just saying, what are the rules for this particular channel? Because our instinct is to say the rules for one channel is the rules for every channel.

[Ed Mylett]

You're right.

[Charles Duhigg]

So we treat email and text and slack and everything exactly the same way. But the truth is if you just take a second and you say like, oh, I don't have to say please necessarily in this text because it could be short, but every email I should like, bend over backwards, be a little bit more polite. It works wonders.

[Ed Mylett]

Brother. I'm such a bad emailer. I'm so lazy with emails, I sometimes don't even put my name at the end of it. You know what I mean? Never mind a thank you. I think I'm the worst emailer that's ever lived. And I've had a lot of people even that I've worked with, you know, even like in the podcast space with like, man, when I met you, you're so nice and kind, but read your emails. You're scary. Like, really, I didn't mean it that way. I'm just trying to get to the point so we could go do something else. I thought email was the faster way, but you're 100% right. The rules of engagement, so to speak, are something that I've been oblivious to. That right there was huge for me.

[Charles Duhigg]

And sometimes you can establish new rules, right? Like if you say to your employees, like, look, I just want you to know I'm gonna send you brusque emails. Cause, like, I'm moving a million miles an hour. You should not read anything into that. Now we know the rule.

[Ed Mylett]

Well, now I've pre framed it, but I don't do that. Yeah, and I treat everybody like they should know better and they don't. And by the way, the worst thing I'll do is I'll get a nice long you know, six paragraph email. And I reply with like seven words.

[Charles Duhigg]

Right.

[Ed Mylett]

And I wonder why they feel dismissed. Sounds good. Sounds conversation. Sounds like, that's my daughter sound. Yep. Yeah. Right. That's my. That's the extent of my emails. So you're 1000% right.

[Charles Duhigg]

My son texts me K. He doesn't even put okay. He just puts K. I'm like, how much lazier can you get?

[Ed Mylett]

I relate to that.

[Charles Duhigg]

But that setting the ground rules, setting like figuring out the rules together, we can do that in a conversation too. So if we're talking about, say, race, right. Which is a tough topic. If I start that conversation by saying, I'd like to talk to you about this and I just want to acknowledge it will likely be awkward. I will probably make mistakes and say things that I don't. Really not saying it the right way. You're probably gonna make mistakes. Like, I think just as a ground rule, like, let's just say it's okay to say things and forgive each other for not getting it right. So now we've established that. Now all of a sudden, that conversation about race feels so much easier.

[Ed Mylett]

Right? We're both open, we're both vulnerable. We've both given ourselves some space to make a mistake and share our real thoughts. And the other thing is, if you don't create that space, then you're really not saying what you really think either. And it's not an authentic exchange.

[Charles Duhigg]

That's exactly.

[Ed Mylett]

I agree. When you ask for permission, I'm gonna ask you two more things.

[Charles Duhigg]

Sure.

[Ed Mylett]

Okay. You said earlier something about repeating back to someone, hey, what I think I heard you say was help me understand this. Right? I love that and totally agree.

[Charles Duhigg]

So sorry, go ahead.

[Ed Mylett]

No, go ahead. Well, I want you to reply with that. And then also, what about the conversation's been over to me when I think, when I feel the most listened to. You and I had lunch together. Okay. And you did that. But 7:30 that night, I get a message from you, you're gone, I'm gone. And you say, I just want to tell you something. I enjoyed our conversation so much and the way that you spoke about your wife or what you shared about, blah, blah, blah, I just want to tell you, it was so meaningful for me. To me, that's like what you suggested on steroids, that actually after the conversation has ended, I come back later and say, not only have I listened to what you said, but I've been thinking about what you said and it made a difference to me. I just want to share that I Do that. And it. I think that's a way of me saying I really value and appreciate what we discussed.

[Charles Duhigg]

And it feels so good. I've gotten an email like that from you, and, like, it felt really good to get it, and it was a great conversation, but, like, to know that it was meaningful to you, and it's much like laughing. It's you saying, like, I want to connect.

[Ed Mylett]

You wanted to say something, and I think I jumped in front of it.

[Charles Duhigg]

Oh, I was just going to talk about this. Looping for understanding these things.

[Ed Mylett]

3.

[Charles Duhigg]

So. So looping for understanding. There's three steps to it. You. You ask a question, hopefully a deep question. Repeat back in your own words what you heard someone say. Okay. And then step number three, ask if you got it right.

[Ed Mylett]

Ask if you got it right.

[Charles Duhigg]

Because. And it's that third step that we often forget to do and is the most powerful.

[Ed Mylett]

Okay.

[Charles Duhigg]

Because what I'm saying when I ask you if I got it right and I. I do this all the time, I'm like, Like, let me tell you what I hear you saying and like. Like, tell me if I'm getting this wrong is that we are saying to them, not only do I want to understand you, I acknowledge that I might have missed something, and you. You might have phrased it in a way that doesn't actually capture what you want. And so, like, when someone says that to me, when they're like, tell me if I'm getting this right, and they repeat back what I just said, I actually find it valuable as the speaker because I'm like, no, no, no. Like, I did a bad job of explaining, like, the. The thing that, like, I really care about because you didn't pick up on it and you were listening. I need to get better at that. And that feels good.

[Ed Mylett]

That's outstanding. All right, last question. First off, let me say this. This is awesome.

[Charles Duhigg]

Oh, thank you.

[Ed Mylett]

And I. Both times we've had to interact together like this, it flies by for me. And frankly, that's because you're a super communicator. And as are you.

[Charles Duhigg]

As are.

[Ed Mylett]

Thank you. And the quality of your work. Listen, guys, there's a lot of books this man doesn't write a ton of them because they're so good when he writes them. There's so much in here, even in today's podcast, like, I hope you understand the value of getting good at these, what I would call almost nuances that make all the difference in the world. So this is a broad question. Just framing it differently. I want to finish with it.

[Charles Duhigg]

And thank you for that.

[Ed Mylett]

It's true. It.