B (2:02)

We do.

A (2:03)

Because actually off camera, I was shocked by how much your work's good.

B (2:08)

Thank you.

A (2:08)

It's really good. And it's made me rethink some of the things I teach. It's that good. Let's start out. First of all, let's just take self doubt and self confidence. When I say those two words to you, like, what do they mean? Because to different people, they can mean different things. What's self doubt mean when I say that to you?

B (2:27)

So self doubt is when you fundamentally question one of four things. When we look at the research, you question your worthiness, your capability, your sense of control in a situation, or your ability to handle the emotions associated with something. A lot of people, when you ask them what is self doubt, they think it's one big blob of worry, anxiety, fear, insecurity. And the problem with that is if we think it's just one thing, then we assume that there must be one solution. So people spend their entire lives looking for this one golden ticket that's going to eliminate their self doubt. And they get frustrated and they get disappointed when they don't find it, because that's not how it works. And that's why gratitude alone doesn't really work. Positive affirmations alone really work. There is an entire system that we need to understand about what drives us and what drives our doubt. And until we understand that and what is driving it, we're not going to be able to find the right approach to actually help us rise above it.

A (3:21)

Is self confidence the antithesis of self doubt or is it different?

B (3:24)

When I ask a lot of people, like if I were to go on the street and ask 100 people, what do you think the opposite of self doubt is? 95% of them or 95 of them would say confidence. And it's because we live in a society where we believe confidence is the opposite of self doubt. So we must wait to feel confident before we take the step.

A (3:41)

Right?

B (3:42)

And this is why we speak to so many people who are waiting to feel ready to feel that sense of yes, I can do this. And then they're just waiting and waiting and waiting. And I'm sure, Ed, you know a lot of people like this too. Anyone listening and watching probably is identifying, hey, that's me. And the reason why this is a problem is because that feeling of confidence, when we really kind of interrogate what it is, it's associated with a feeling of certainty, yes, I can do this. And that feeling only comes once you've done something to prove to yourself, yes, I did this, right? You get a proof point, you get evidence, you build what's called self efficacy. And then that is what creates that feeling of confidence, and then you feel motivated to keep going. So if that feeling everyone is waiting for comes after you do the thing, what needs to come first? We know a. Okay, action's important, but there's something before action and it's not confidence. It is self trust.

A (4:32)

There we go.

B (4:33)

The beauty of trusting yourself, which means you don't need to know how to do it fully. You don't need to know if it's going to work out. You don't need to know anything about it other than, hey, I trust myself, my worthiness, my capability, my control, my ability to handle the emotions associated with it. And even if it doesn't work out, I'm not going to internalize that. I will learn, I will grow, I will, I will try again.

A (4:56)

It's really good. This is what I meant when you've made me challenge some of my work. Just so you know, I used to say, actually up until about three weeks ago, till I started becoming familiar with you, that self confidence is self trust. I actually used to physically, verbally, literally say that. And then you made me think about it and you're right and I was wrong. There is a distinction there. And then I'm like, okay, because now everything in self confidence is predicated on taking an action. But, but if what perceives that is doubt, then you never take the action. Then you never get to the self confidence. So what you say in the book. Because this isn't a book that just points out the problem. Those books frustrate me. Like they point out something that after you hear it, oh, that's obvious. Self trust and self confidence is different. Okay, point well taken. Then what?

B (5:38)

Yeah, now what do I do?

A (5:39)

But in the book you tell us what to do. Let's start out with just some foundational stuff first, which are these attributes because I think it helps you be really self aware once you start hearing what they are. So why don't you share those with us?

B (5:50)

Absolutely. Okay, so when we look at self trust, the next question is, well, what is that? What do I actually do to develop self trust? And when we look at over 50 years worth of research, we find that there are actually four personality traits that combine to basically create how we see ourselves. And then that creates whether we have self doubt or self trust. When these four traits are strong and healthy and positive, it acts like a barrier, a protective force against self doubt. So, Ed, let me start. And everyone listening, I want to start with an analogy. Imagine I have two glasses of water right here and they're full to the brim with water. Now I also have a ping pong ball and a golf ball. So I take the ping pong ball, it's very light, and I place it on one of the glasses. What happens to that ping pong ball?

A (6:34)

It floats.

B (6:35)

It floats. What happens to the water? Nothing. What about if I take the golf ball and I place it on the other glass of water and I drop it in, what happens? And what happens to the water overflows.

A (6:46)

Yep.

B (6:47)

This is how we need to be thinking of self doubt. We need to see it as the ping pong ball. It floats above us. We're aware that it's there, but we do not internalize it. It doesn't become something that defines who we are. Whereas for most of us, self doubt is like that golf ball. It sinks to the bottom of who we are. We believe it is a part of us. We internalize it. And then not only that, we lose part of ourselves through the process. That water has just fallen out of the cup.

A (7:12)

Very good.

B (7:12)

And what's even more interesting is even if you then remove that golf ball from that cup, the water doesn't mysteriously refill it. So what we find is when we go on this journey of rediscovering self trust, sometimes it can be painful because you also have to go on a process of trusting your instincts and your decisions and asking yourself, what do I really want? Because for so long we have outsourced our worth and our decisions to other people to meet their expectations and to make everyone else happy that we no longer know what it is that we want and what our purpose is. So I love this analogy because I love it. It's great, isn't it? It's really good visual. It also reminds us the goal is not to elim. Eliminate the doubt, is to strengthen parts of us that can naturally be resilient to it. Because doubt can be very healthy if you know how to process it, if you know what its function is. So then how do we strengthen these parts of ourselves? Well, there are these four personality traits.

A (8:02)

This is really good.

B (8:04)

It's fascinating stuff. These four personality traits. I'm going to briefly tell you what they are without going into much detail because then I'm going to share what the problem was with them and then I'll get into the attributes in Big Trust. Okay, the four traits. The first one is self esteem. How do you see yourself? Are you a value? The second one is self efficacy. Do you believe you can do the thing? The third one is called locus of control. Do you believe that you have some degree of personal power in your life, or do you feel powerless because you're focusing on everything outside of your control? And the fourth, emotional stability. Can you regulate your emotions in response to life? Now, what happens when you go to someone and you mention, hey, there are these four personality traits. When you mention the word personality, what do you think people usually say in response to that?

A (8:48)

Probably they were born with it.

B (8:50)

Yes. Well, I guess that's just who I am.

A (8:52)

Right.

B (8:52)

Can't do anything about it. That's just me. And it becomes this resistance and this blocker, and they don't want to change, and it's an excuse. So we realized. Okay, we get that. Because the truth is, when you look at a lot of research, personality is stable. Who you were as a kid is largely how you're going to be. But unless, and this is what my own research showed when I was doing the PhD, you can change your personality, but you have to choose to intervene and strengthen a particular part of it. So this then brings us to our work and these four core pieces. So we're not going to talk about the personality piece. We're going to talk about what are the four attributes that allow you to strengthen each of those personality traits?

A (9:30)

Very good.

B (9:30)

Okay. Okay, so. And I think it's important to understand where they come from to really appreciate just how powerful this is. Okay, so the very first one that we talk about is the attribute of acceptance. It's a trainable habit, and it relates to whether you fundamentally accept who you are. Do you accept who you are? Or when it's weak, you outsource your worth. You only accept yourself when other people accept you, which means you're constantly molding yourself to fit the group. Which also means you might sacrifice your morals and values if you're around people who want you to sacrifice your morals and values.

A (10:04)

Something to watch in raising your children.

B (10:06)

Extremely, extremely important. You become very susceptible to peer pressure, codependent on your partner. It's not a great space to be. You also take feedback personally. You don't see it as an opportunity to grow because you don't accept yourself. You see it as attacking who you are. You also. There's something very interesting that happens here.

A (10:25)

So interesting.

B (10:27)

There's something called the Schadenfreude cycle. It's a German word. Now, don't come at me, German speakers. I think my pronunciation's off. But essentially what it is is, you know, those moments when I don't know if everyone relates to this. It's only something I'VE noticed earlier on in my career when I had a lot of self doubt and a lot of insecurity, if I saw someone else stumble, it made me feel a little better about myself. Not in terms of, oh, they've given me permission to be human too. It was more like, oh, phew, great. I like seeing when they struggle.

A (11:00)

What an honest thing to say. And true. And I relate to it.

B (11:03)

Yeah, if I'm honest, I think every single person can relate to it. Not everyone is willing to acknowledge that, though. That is a sign of a lack of self acceptance because your weak sense of who you are gets a little ego boost when you see others suffer. I mean, that's completely the ego and the self serving nature. So this is acceptance. We need to strengthen acceptance. The second attribute is called self. It's the self efficacy trait, and we call it agency. Agency is how you strengthen that. So what does that look like? It's the inherent trust that you can do the thing. Either you know how to do it, you can rely on skills you've had before, you can learn how to do it, you can find resources to help you do it, or you can find someone else to do it for you. But you will find a way. Now, when you struggle here, this is where we see imposter syndrome people. Never feeling like they deserve to be where they are because they may have all these achievements and these accomplishments, but deep down they don't feel like they're as smart or as competent. We also see a lot of comparison, and this is not the kind of comparison where you look at people who have done amazing things and you think, wow, I want to do that too. This is where you look at those people and you think, I could never do that. Look at how far ahead they are and. And then you start attacking all the ways you fall short from a skill perspective and an ability perspective. And then we also see people here just waiting to feel ready. They wait, they prepare, they plan, they procrastinate, they never take action because deep down they don't believe they can. So this is agency. The third one is what I find the most fascinating, because no one before this moment has recognized that this is a part of self doubt. It is a lack of self trust. So, Ed, have you ever come across someone who complains constantly?

A (12:46)

Yes.

B (12:47)

They are resentful and they blame other people. They also might share the same story about how they were hurt in the past, in business, in relationships. And the first three or four times you hear it, you think, gosh, wow, Yes, I have empathy. This person's gone through so much by the 30th or 50th time, suddenly you realize, okay, this person's keeping themselves stuck. Yeah, that is a sign of low autonomy. Low autonomy. These people feel like they have no power in their lives. They didn't have power then, they don't have power now. And so they fixate on everything they cannot control and complain about it. Because it's easier to complain about something than to do something about it. When you don't feel like you have power.

A (13:26)

And they're using their RAs to find references for it all the time, to reconfirm it, make it a deeper and deeper belief.

B (13:32)

All of this is being reconfirmed by the ras, by parts of the brain. In fact, when I get to the end, I'll share two studies that demonstrate just how powerful this is. So that is a sign or a reflection of a lack of trust in your ability to have any degree of power in your life. Now, we know you cannot control everything in life. Many things are out of our hands. And if we choose to focus on those things, guess how you feel? Powerless. Why? Because you literally are powerless.

A (13:59)

Right.

B (14:00)

But we also have the ability to shift our attention to things that we can control. And simply doing that, what is fascinating, when we're focusing on things we can't control and we feel like we have no power, it doesn't feel great. We have all these emotions that come with it. We see increased activity in the threat detection centers of the brain, so we're more likely to notice everything that could go wrong, and then we keep ourselves stuck. Whereas when we simply shift our attention to what we can control, and this is the incredible thing about attention, when you shift your attention to what you can control actively, we see a decrease in activity in the amygdala, the fear centers, the threat detection centers, and an increase in activity in the prefrontal regions. So simply by shifting your attention, you fundamentally change what you're paying attention to. And then because of what's going on in the brain and the filter system, you notice more of what you can control.

A (14:48)

Very good.

B (14:49)

And you feel more personally powerful.

A (14:51)

Very good.

B (14:51)

So it's again, just these subtle nuances. So that is our third one. That's autonomy. Now, the fourth attribute, in my view, really fuels all the others. If you can get this one sorted, if you can really work on developing this, life just gets easier. And it's essentially. Essentially, it's the ability to detach from your emotions when they're not serving you. And so we call It Adaptability. Emotional adaptability. Can you adapt to what you feel in a given moment? And that's not to say some people ask, oh, well, does that mean I should never experience a negative emotion and try and suppress it and push it away? Absolutely not. Emotions are data, they are signals we need to learn to understand. What is that signal telling me? Is this giving me an indication that there is some risk in the environment? Is this revealing that one of my values has been violated? That's a really important one. People generally feel anger when a value that they have has been violated. So interrogate the emotion, understand where it's coming from. But then if you can. And when I say, excuse me, when I say detach from the emotion, it doesn't mean you become numb to it or you ignore it. You simply allow it to pass. Like clouds in a sky, they're there, but you know, they're temporary. And in time, you know, if you look beyond the clouds, the sun is still shining. So knowing that they're temporary, they will pass. But then working with them to see what is this telling me? How can I channel this?

A (16:15)

Yeah.

B (16:16)

So Ed, I want to just quickly go back.

A (16:17)

Okay, that is outstanding, by the way.

B (16:19)

Thank you. I. So can I just share? I find this so incredibly powerful because it gives people a language to understand why they experience doubt.

A (16:28)

Yes.

B (16:29)

No one's doubt is the same as someone else's. And what's super cool is actually when you look at where you fall on each of these attributes, it creates your doubt profile.

A (16:37)

Yes.

B (16:37)

And a bit like a Myers Briggs or a disc.

A (16:39)

Yes.

B (16:40)

We have these different archetypes. So why don't I share the most common archetype?

A (16:43)

Yes, I know what it is from the book, but let's go.

B (16:46)

So the most common archetype is what we call the anxious overachiever. Super common in high performers, in entrepreneurs. Yeah, me too. Where it's someone who. And it's, you know, the other thing which is worth noting here is even people who have a very strong faith, I'm going to say that the ultimate antidote to self doubt is actually faith. I mean we could just end it here and like that's. It would have just those words in it. But at the same time, we also know that we are tested in this life and our ability to move through, through those tests allows us to determine how much faith we have. And so while we're living here in this physical world, there are challenges and we have ego and we have that negative voice and the self criticism. So I think we need to acknowledge that up front. Even people who have extremely strong faith still experience self doubt because we are human. So if you are tested and you feel like you have a lot of self doubt, that is okay. You're not broken. It's just a part of the human experience. And everything is a learning and an opportunity to grow and to develop those qualities within ourselves that serve us throughout our entire lives. So I want to now share that anxious overachiever archetype and then I'm going to share these two studies that demonstrate just how powerful all of this is. Okay, so the anxious overachiever, which is me and Ed, could be you. It's someone who has conditional acceptance. What does that mean? So we know that deep down we, we are inherently of value again because we have faith, we know the reason for existence, etc. But at the same time, we are often in a position, especially those of us who fall here. We want everyone to be happy. We really want everyone to be happy. And sometimes that means we sacrifice ourselves for their happiness. We've been raised that way, we are taught to be that way. And then sometimes we forget that actually we have needs and desires and wants and opinions that deserve to be heard as well. And so that conditional acceptance is really common in high performers and entrepreneurs, in leaders. It's this conditional acceptance. If you're around people who support you and believe in you and you're doing well from a business perspective, a life perspective, you feel great. But if you're around people who make you question your worth and if you're struggling in business, if you're experiencing a failure, you might turn inwards and become self critical. So that's what we call conditional acceptance. We are people pleasers because we enjoy it, but we sacrifice ourselves in the process.

A (19:10)

Totally get it. Very much relate, very much relate to.

B (19:13)

It's an ongoing process for me.

A (19:14)

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B (21:20)

This space, the anxious overachiever, we have reasonably high agency.

A (21:24)

Yes.

B (21:25)

So we believe we can do things because we often have a track record. We've done it before and we've done the work. And we know that if there's something new, we'll be able to figure it out. Because again, we've done the work. Our autonomy is also extremely high. Meaning we always focus on what we can control. We're always focusing on the next step. What can happen sometimes here is that we are so focused on what we can control that sometimes we blame ourselves for things that are outside of our control. And we personalize and we think, I should have known better, I should have done this, I should have been across that. So then that's the sign of the low acceptance coming through. But then in this particular archetype and I resonate with this, we also have a shaky adaptability unless we focus on it. What does that mean? We're driven by a lot of overthinking. There's this low level anxiety feeling like I haven't done enough, I need to do more. Is everyone else okay? Am I doing enough in my business? Am I doing enough in my family? And it's this constant incessant feeling of I'm not enough yet. I need to be more, become more of that role model for my, my family, my community. I need to. And again, that constant undercurrent of emotional shakiness drives a lot of the other doubt. Now, a lot of us have done a lot of work to get better at adaptability, but we can still feel it, especially when the pressure is on, when there's a lot going on, when there's a lot of change, or when there is instability in our lives, when there is an unexpected health issue, a death in the family, a lot of these insecurities can come back.

A (22:49)

Very good.

B (22:50)

So this is. I find it so interesting because I'm.

A (22:52)

Like, wow, so do I. I think I want to say one thing about the book too. Just I want to make my plug for you on the book.

B (22:57)

Thank you.

A (22:58)

For no other reason to get the book is you ought to go figure out what your archetype, your profile is. It may not be the one that you just described. I think it. Because it'll. To know thyself is to begin to heal thyself and to find a solution and a cure. And the recipe for. For you. So that in and of itself is really, really powerful. I think that probably is me, what you just described as close as I can get to, you know, being connected with a profile or an archetype. I think it's that anyway you're going to tell us those two studies.

B (23:26)

The study I love to share and it's in one of the early chapters in the book. I share it all the time because it's so memorable. It's from the 70s, late 70s, back when they could conduct studies like this. Ethically, they wouldn't be able to do them anymore. So yay for researchers in the 70s, so late 1970s, a psychology professor from Dartmouth Robert Kleck, conducted this fascinating experiment where he brought people together and he split them up into groups. Now, with one of the groups, he drew a scar on their face from their ear to their mouth and let them see themselves in a hand mirror so they can confirm, yes, I have a scar on my face. The other group, no scar. He then sends everybody into conversations with strangers. They have their conversations. They come back in. This is individually, by the way. They're not all doing this together. They're doing it one by one. They come back and they share about how they felt the conversation went. And the conversation for those who had the scar. They said it was tense. Their conversation partner was cold. It was uncomfortable. They felt like they were treated differently because of the scar. The other group, Fine, no issues whatsoever. Enjoyed the conversations. But here is where it gets really interesting. I mean, that would be a study on discrimination and prejudice, but that was not the point of the study. If I rewind a little bit. Before these participants with the scars went into their conversations, the researcher said, I'm going to apply some moisturizing cream to set the scar so it doesn't crack. Okay, fair enough. So he applies the moisturizing cream, but what he does without telling them is he removes the scar entirely. They had no scars on their face. They go into these conversations believing they have a physical disfigurement on their face, and that is what they noticed when it was completely untrue. I get goosebumps when I share that story because we just have to think, how many scars are we carrying in our lives, into every conversation, into our marriages, with our children, in. In our businesses, with our clients? And how is that reinforcing the belief that we already have about ourselves, even when it's not objectively true? It's expectation bias.

A (25:34)

You really got me there.

B (25:35)

Oh, I'm glad.

A (25:36)

That is. That's tremendous. And by the way, the way you lay it out with the punchline there is tremendous, too. Keep going. I'm just. I'm really, really into this. The audience knows.

B (25:47)

I'm so happy. Yeah, I love that story. Or that study, because so do I. Expectation bias affects us in everything. If you expect yourself to perform well in an interview, you are more likely to perform well. If you expect yourself to be successful asking that person out at the restaurant, you are more likely to be successful because what we believe influences how we show up and what we notice, which then reinforces whatever we believe. I had this one experience once where I went out walking and people were looking at Me. And I thought, gosh, like, I must have dressed really nice today, or maybe my hair looks good. And I was smiling back and I felt fantastic. Which in itself, you know, there's this beautiful line that comes from the book the Four Agreements.

A (26:26)

Great book.

B (26:26)

Oh, one of my favorites.

A (26:28)

Just talk about Sage Robbins on the show.

B (26:29)

Oh, beautiful. I love connection. So one of the agreements is take nothing personally. And that's a given. We know we shouldn't take negative things personally, but this is also the positive. Don't allow the positive words of someone else to make you feel better about yourself. Do you know why? Because it means that you fundamentally don't accept yourself and you're waiting for others to validate you.

A (26:50)

That is a massively true point. It's a really, like, cheap way to feel good. It's like. It's like candy or sugar high. And it's very dangerous when you live on compliments or affirmation or even achievement and accolades for your validation. Yes, it's. I think. And I want to just step in here because one thing I wanted to ask you. I think that's why so many of my mega achievers that I coach one on one, and, you know, some of them have run pretty big countries and do some big stuff, are fundamentally still pretty unhappy people. I hate to say this, and even, frankly, you can go look at 800 guests that have been on the show, some of the most famous successful people in the world. When this camera goes off and we're putting the mics together, hey, can we get together at one on one? I'm just not happy. I'm just not happy. And I think because there's a lane that many get into where all other validation is conditional. Conditional on their achievement, conditional on how people are speaking about them, conditional on their likes, their views, their bank account, their awards. I think you're absolutely 1 million percent right. And it's an easy lane to get into. Feel good, too, that we can choose to get us out of the lane we're in right now. Oh, if I could just get compliments. If I'll just. And this also causes children, young people to do things, to get acceptance, to belong. You know, those of you that are. I just think all the time about, I want. I want both my children. My son's here today, as you know, but particularly with my daughter. I want, for some reason, as a dad, it's the way I look at it. I don't mean this in any, you know, misogynistic way at all. I just mean I don't especially my daughter. I don't want her to think that she has to get her validation by doing something that makes her uncomfortable or looking a particular way or dressing provocatively or whatever it might be to get that hit. So to speak of. Oh, I feel good about myself today because somebody says I look great today. You know what I'm saying? It's something I really, really worry about. So I didn't mean to interrupt you on the two studies.

B (28:41)

Please interrupt more if you have things to share because we'd love to hear your perspective.

A (28:45)

Well, I will tell you one of the things. You used the word earlier. I'll jump in and we'll get into the other study. You used the word detach earlier. Detach from the emotion. This isn't in the book. I'm just curious about your thoughts on this. What about detaching from outcome when you have a task? So, so I'm very outcome focused, goal focused, as are most people that listen to this. But years ago, Wayne Dyer became a very dear friend of mine who's one of the, I think the Mount Rushmore's of people in this self help, personal production industry, whatever you want to call it. And he goes, you know Ed, one thing that you might consider doing is not being so attached to the outcome and separating from things. So it's okay to have a goal. Hey, I want to achieve, I want to make this sale done. Or but in the moment of execution, if you can separate from outcome, it somehow reduces the what he would call like a pressure on your performance anxiety. That I have to get this done, I have to get this date, she has to marry me, I have to close the sale, I have to nail this speech, I have to make this putt, I've got to hit a home run this time when I'm up. And that obsession with outcome causes our self trust to drop. Do you agree with that?

B (29:51)

100%.

A (29:52)

Okay.

B (29:53)

Obsession with outcome is in our experience almost always related to a lack of acceptance because you have almost subconsciously attached your sense of worth to whatever happens.

A (30:09)

There you go.

B (30:10)

And if I don't get that thing, then I'm not enough. And again, it's not something people would often verbalize, but it's deep down it's a scar that they carry. And that's also what holds so many people back because they think, but if I do it and I don't get it, then I'm getting confirmation that I'm not enough and I don't want that. And therefore I'm going to Just stay safe. And something that we have in the book, which came from a lot of my work with clients, and you would have experienced this too. Everyone has a critical voice. But what I also identified after doing hundreds of interviews, is that it doesn't sound the same even in the same person. They have different facets of that voice. And so we identified four inner critical voices. We call them the inner deceivers. I'll tell you what they are, and if you're listening, see if you can like, check along which ones you have. The first one is just the default voice of criticism. Why'd you do that? Should have done this. You're an idiot. It's just there in the background. It's a classic judge. The second one's called the Misguided Protector. And it tries to protect you from harm by anticipating everything that could go wrong, magnifying it so that you don't take action, because then you're safe, but you're also stuck. So it's function is protection, but it keeps you stagnant. The third one is what we call the ringmaster. It's that incessant voice in our heads that pushes us to keep pushing and keep going and push harder and don't stop working, otherwise I'll make you feel guilty. I mean, productivity guilt is a real thing. And also, once you get there, then you'll feel enough. And then you get there and you don't feel enough because, oh, it'll be that one. It'll be that one. And you incessantly set these bigger and better goals and you feel empty. And then the fourth one is what we call the neglector. It's the one that highlights that your desires and wants are not important. You need to satisfy everyone else first. If they're not happy with you, you are nothing. They matter more. So it forces you to neglect yourself.

A (32:02)

Just think of my mom when you say that.

B (32:03)

Oh, I think of my mom too.

A (32:05)

Do you?

B (32:05)

Yeah.

A (32:05)

Yeah, I bet people, a lot of people are thinking of their mom.

B (32:09)

So the second one's just a really short one and I think so. The SCAR study is fantastic, but the second one introduces some. I love these studies. You know what I love about my work?

A (32:17)

Tell me what you love about your work.

B (32:20)

My own insecurity. I went to law school and I felt deeply, deeply insecure. I never felt like I belonged and I felt like I would be found out that I was an error. And then I worked in banking and finance and the legal industry felt the same. So I have always felt like I need to have some kind of backing to what I'm saying, some kind of evidence. Otherwise, I don't want to say it. I've somehow found myself in a career where thankfully everything I say is backed by research.

A (32:43)

Yes.

B (32:43)

So it's a very comforting space. But that also reflects that I lack self acceptance. I'm allowed to have an opinion, so I'm working on that. I'm working on having opinions, but I differ.

A (32:52)

To other people, I agree with you. But I also do love that about your work, that it's all like, hey, well, here's a study to validate this, or here's. Even for me, like, I liken my work to have proof of concept. Somehow I don't think that necessarily means that I'm not allowed to have an opinion. It's just that in many cases, I want to say, like, here's some social.

B (33:09)

Proof, or it's an informed opinion.

A (33:11)

There you go. There we go. Very well said, as usual. Okay, so what's this study?

B (33:16)

So the second one, it introduces the idea of some neuroscience into this. So Alia Crum was conducting. She was the head researcher in conducting this study looking at the role of expectation on outcomes. So basically what they did is they had a group of people, they split them in two. They gave them a milkshake to drink. Now, one group was told this milkshake was really calorie dense, full of calories. Like, this is like two meals worth of calories in this milkshake. The other group, same milkshake, but they were told there are, like, no calories in this. It's nothing. It's like water. They give these groups the milkshakes. What they found is the group that were told it was calorie dense, full of calories, they stayed fuller for much longer. The group that was told it was like drinking water, they became hungry really quickly after it.

A (34:05)

Same drink.

B (34:05)

Same drink. And so essentially what it's doing is that expectation influenced ghrelin, the hunger hormone in their brain, making them feel more hungry. It was the same thing. It should have had the same effect on their body.

A (34:18)

It's bananas.

B (34:19)

It's bananas. And there are so many studies in the realm of placebo effect.

A (34:22)

Yes.

B (34:22)

You know, like a painkiller versus a nothing. And depending on what you believe, it works or doesn't. So we need to acknowledge it is undisputable that your beliefs influence not only what you notice, but actually what is.

A (34:35)

Going on in your brain chemically, in your brain neurochemically. Okay, so here's what we're going to do okay, we're going to go a little bit. Solution based now. A little bit. By the way, you're welcome back on the show. Just want to say in the middle of the interview, you should say it at the end of somebody's giveaway. But we, I want to have you back on. To me, this time is valuable. That's why Lowe's blueprint takeoffs turn blueprints into quotes faster. Bring us your plans and we'll generate itemized material lists to make quoting easier so you can get back to building plus. At the Lowe's pro desk, you get access to thousands of building materials not sold in store. And when your order's ready, we'll deliver everything to the job site. Improving is easy at Lowe's. This is like, I'm gonna give you the sentence you said in the book. And I'm like, this is like foundational. And I'm probably say it wrong, but I used to think people that were egomaniacs that were like obsessed with themselves, fit a particular profile. They were loud, boisterous, bragged all the time. You can kind of just see them. That's an ego person. They're self focused. And I thought more quiet, humble people like you and I, one on one, we're both introverts. People that lack confidence to some extent, naturally just something they've struggled with in their life. Those are non ego driven people, non focus driven people. And over the last 20 years of doing my work, I found out that's actually not true. And oftentimes people that struggle the most with their confidence or doubt or self trust, all of those three things are actually self focused too much. And so you actually have this thing in the book, self focus instead of self forget. This is huge, you guys. It's simple, but it's like very foundational to making this shift. Self focus or self forget. What did you mean in the book when you said that?

B (36:23)

What we find is a lot of people think if they want to overcome their doubt, they have to focus more on themselves, their doubts and the voices in their heads and. But actually the more we do that, the more we become focused on I, me, my, how are they seeing me, how am I coming across? What am I achieving? And these are voices of the ego. That kind of self serving part of us that appeals to our lower nature doesn't allow us to appeal to our higher nature. And so one of the simplest things you can do to quieten the voice of self doubt is not more self focus, it's less.

A (36:56)

Yes.

B (36:56)

And it's by self forgetting. What does that mean? Self forgetting simply means prioritizing the needs and desires of other people. Now, not in a.

A (37:06)

This is so nuanced, isn't it? Because it's like mom.

B (37:09)

Exactly.

A (37:09)

Then I think of mom and it's so I want, I want you to go there.

B (37:12)

And so it's. And this is where we get confused because the, we call it the gift that allows you to tap into self acceptance is to self forget, which means do something for someone else. Be of service, be of value, volunteer your time, be charitable, do something that gets you out of your head. I mean, we know there are studies that show if you offer an act of kindness to someone else, you get this beautiful shot of oxytocin and dopamine. It makes you feel more connected. Not only that, anyone who sees that also feels the same as well as the person receiving it.

A (37:42)

You know, how right you are. I used to say when you're feeling the most helpless, get the most helpful but one application of what you're teaching here. I just want everyone to, you know, hear the way that I hear it so that you guys take action on this and also get the book. I'm about to go speak to a few thousand people after we do this interview, as you know. And I used to really have a hard time with imposter syndrome with I'm not good enough, what are they gonna think about me, I hope they like me, etc, etc, and it just made it a torturous experience to get on stage and speak. And then over time I just started to look into the crowd and realize this is a soul, there's a human in there, maybe they need me. What if I took my focus and I walk out on this stage and focus on them and their needs and I almost lose myself in the service of others. It doesn't mean I'm not focused. Just so you know, the nuance, everybody. I'm still focused on the message I need to deliver. I still want to be tactically good on the stage. I still want to be have good timing and rhythm. And so I'm still focused to that extent on me. But the outcome of the work, my overall focus when I walk on that stage or I'm backstage is on them, not me. I self forget. And that self forgetting, I think as a spiritual person, allows the higher me, in my case the Holy Spirit, to take over and enter the room. And I don't get in the way of it. But also I enjoy it more. I'm better, I have way more Self trust and self confidence going out there because I'm not self focused when I go out. So that's the application of it for me.

B (39:14)

Beautifully said. So beautifully said. And what happens is you, your goal is then not how do I look on stage, it's what kind of an impact am I having on these souls?

A (39:23)

Yes.

B (39:24)

And that is incredibly powerful. It has a self minimizing effect.

A (39:29)

Yes.

B (39:29)

So the self meaning, that incessant voice, how am I coming across? How do people see me? That becomes dampened when we're focused on being of value to other people. Now a really tactical, tangible tool for people here. I call it the care less, Care more. Listen. So I used to get very anxious sharing. Well, I still do every time I go to share anything on social media because we do it all ourselves, we don't have a team. And there's an element of vulnerability that comes when you're doing the posting. When my finger is hovering over the post button, there is this little voice that creeps in. What are they going to think? Am I going to get the comments? Are they going to criticize this? And also in today's day and age, am I going to get canceled? Have I said anything that could be misinterpreted? And I become so fixated on that that sometimes I hesitate and I don't post. So I started saying to myself, care less. Care less, Shade. Care less about what they think, about who, how many people respond about this, that and the other. And it really helped. And I realized it's because of attention. Instead of my attention going to all the what will they think of me's? I just shifted to, well, I'm just gonna stop thinking about that.

A (40:28)

Yes.

B (40:29)

But then my husband, wonderful Faisal, who's my co author and business partner and the best decision I ever made in my life, he said, okay, well that's half the story. Care less. But what are you caring more about? And I realized, oh, I see what you're getting at. So now what I do is I say care less Sade about how I'm coming across and what other people think. Care more about being of service, about being of value and finding that soul that needs to hear this message.

A (40:55)

Care more. That is profoundly so great. I'm telling you, everybody who's, if you struggle with like just chronic fear, this is such a foundational move that if you just get out of yourself, I'm telling you, it's almost 97% of the work. It truly is one of the other things for me over the years when you're in this work, you kind of start checking boxes on your growing and getting better. And so I don't struggle much anymore with the voice in my head or even self doubt. Not a lot of that anymore. I mean there's certain situations, I'm sure where that creep. Yeah, actually I think of one recently I coaching someone that just came on board, that ran a big country and I remember thinking, why in the world does she want me? So there was a little of that. So that's true. I still have some of that. But I think the holy grail for me is worry. And I know why I worry. I think when you grow up in a home with an alcoholic dad or anything like that, you worry about your dad. You worry mom and dad gonna stay together. You begin this pattern of worry. And then that pattern, like that story you tell, becomes a familiar home. Even if it's not a home I like living in. I'm very familiar with it. And the brain loves certainty. The brain loves familiarity. And so I can get into a worry lane. I have like high speed Internet to a worry lane and a really bumpy dirt road to peace. Right.

B (42:14)

Nice analogy.

A (42:15)

It's just true. And so oh my gosh, this book about worry. Because everyone's like, don't worry. And I know scripturally, depending on what your religious beliefs are, it's a sin in some cases. And set all that aside for a second. You all worry and you know, you damn worry. Okay. And some of you more than others. And I am really good at it. And I'm like, I have to just drop all this worrying. But I've never been able to meet that threshold. You have a tool in this book that is simple for us worriers or that have anxiety. And it is awesome because I've been doing it for like six days and it's legit and I'm going to continue it. I think it's a. I'm pretty good. I make my mind up. This is a decision. This is going to be a habit I'm going to develop. Tell them about the worry time.

B (42:54)

This is my. Probably one of my favorite tips in the book because I. It's something I do almost every day.

A (42:59)

Okay.

B (42:59)

I'm also an incessive warrior. My brain loves to overthink. And again, it's. There's this comfort that comes from the overthinking, but it does not help us. The brain is seeking certainty and it's trying to find certainty. And then in our overthinking we will magnify things that could go wrong. Because then at least we have certainty everything's going to be terrible. Everything doing right doesn't help us.

A (43:18)

Yes.

B (43:18)

Now, a lot of guidance out there is structured around distract yourself, eliminate the thought, do other things. But what we know, I mean, what happens, Ed, when you try not to think about something, you think about it more. In fact, there was this really great study early, early on, like decades ago. It was called the White Bear experiment.

A (43:36)

Yes. Yes.

B (43:37)

They asked people not to think about a white bear, and then they asked another group to think about a white bear. The group that was asked not to think about the white bear thought about the white bear more than the group that was told to think about it.

A (43:47)

So.

B (43:47)

So when you try and suppress a thought, it doesn't work. It comes back. So what researchers have found is don't try and suppress the worry. Give it a time and place.

A (43:56)

Yes.

B (43:57)

Which I love because that's fantastic. Okay, so what does that mean? That means, firstly, you need to schedule worry time every day. This is good if you're a worrier. Right. 10 minutes. I find 10 minutes is good for me. But the research actually says it can be up to 30 minutes. So you can start with 30 if you want more time and reduce it. Set worry time, put it in your calendar. Now, someone said, but if you call it worry time, that's a negative term. You can call it whatever you like, me time, cup of tea time, whatever it is, but have that in your calendar, usually towards the end of the day, not too close to bed, because it will affect your sleep. So some people do it after work or after dinner on the couch, when you have alone time. Now, during the day, when a worry pops up as it does and it's so incredibly distracting, you write it down in a worry list or a cup of tea list, whatever you want to call your worry time. I call it a worry list and I have it on my phone. But I also recommend having a physical notebook write down your worry. Now, what is remarkable is sometimes when you write something down, your brain goes, oh, good, you're not going to forget it. I don't have to keep reminding you. Right. That's the first thing. So write it down. Then say to yourself, I'm not going to worry about you now. I will worry about you during worry time. So you're giving it a time and place. You've given it an outlet. Remarkably, even that in itself can help reduce the worries, capture all them. When you get to worry time, you know your calendar notifies you, pull out your list and allow yourself to worry.

A (45:18)

It's very good, you guys.

B (45:19)

It's remarkable.

A (45:20)

I'm telling you, it's remarkable. And let me tell you the other thing I've experienced. By the way. Thank you for that. Like that alone is a life, I would say, life altering thing for me. And what I found out is that I have my worry time. I'm not gonna say when it is, but it's five, six hours before bed because of what you said. Cause I'm a ruminator. You get me going too good. But what I have found is I've set this window of time, which is only 10 minutes in my case. You know what I found out by the time I get there, which is I'll just be ending. It's between like 5 and 7 o'.

B (45:50)

Clock.

A (45:50)

I'll just share that. I have found that by the time I get back to my list that my ability to find the worry to the depth that I was heading into it before is much more shallow or doesn't exist at all anymore. That doesn't mean there aren't a few things. I'm like, all right, I'm gonna sit here and ruminate on this one and let me see how bad I can make this in my head. But the vast majority of the things that I've been writing down throughout the day, by the time I get to worry time to worry about them, I can't find the groove. Do you know what I mean? Right. Where is this? Like, where's the dread? What's going on here? It's very hard for me to find it six, seven hours removed. Yet there's a few cases where I have. Have you found that with you as well?

B (46:26)

Yes, 100%. And it's because in the moment when the thought comes, that's a stimulus and then the emotion responds to that. But when you've given it time, when you review it, suddenly there's this sense of objectivity and you don't get stuck in again, there might be some, but you don't get stuck in them. Which also helps you determine which of these are actual worries.

A (46:43)

You got it.

B (46:43)

And which ones were. Just because I had a bad experience with someone or I just. I hadn't eaten that day and so my mind was playing or hadn't slept. And so this thing felt bigger than it was.

A (46:51)

I'm just in my pattern of what I do. Exactly. Can I tell you the other thing that it does and maybe you could speak to it. I was just going to. I had a thought about it the Other thing that you say this in the book, so it's valid, it's training me almost to what you say in the book, which is this. And then I'll let you elaborate on it by the time I get to it. And I'm like, yeah, that was a dumb worry. Like I can't get myself to worry about it now. There are things again where I'm like, it's valid, but it's also reconvincing me that I don't have to believe everything I think in the moment I think it. Because once I've written it down in the moment I'm thinking it and I'm like, I'm going to get to you at 5:30. By the time I get to it at 5:30, I'm like, what the heck did I believe that for? And so it's actually training me to be more of an observer of my thoughts in the moment rather than addicted to them and identifying and attaching to my thought. It's teaching me that I don't have to believe everything I think in the moment, that I think it.

B (47:41)

Beautifully said.

A (47:42)

And you say this in the book, beautifully said.

B (47:45)

There's so much power in being able to do that, reminding ourselves you don't have to believe everything you think and you don't have to believe everything your mind tells you to believe based on a pattern that's been there since childhood. And so this simple, simple practice of just. It's called stimulus control for worry. This simple, simple practice is so remarkably effective. Now there are a couple of steps afterwards because you might find someone will go through their worries and then suddenly, yes, it's on Super Drive when the alarm goes off, you have to be setting the alarm when the alarm goes off, the 10 minutes, the 30 minutes, whatever it is, you need to have the discipline say, okay, I'm stopping the worry now. Then you look at your list and you ask, is there anything that I need to do about any of these? What is within my control and is there anything I can do? And then if there is, you commit to one, two or three actions, just very, very small ones. That reminds you that there's always a small step you can take which builds up your sense of autonomy in the moment. And then if there's nothing you can do about it, you're like, great, I'll just worry about it again tomorrow. And it's remarkably effective. Then at the end of the week, what's helpful is to go back through your list and then reflect on how many of these were dumb. Just Dumb thoughts that popped to me in the moment. How many of these are actual worries? And what are the patterns here? What are reflecting Deep patterns that were developed when I was a kid that I don't actually have to stay attached to today.

A (49:05)

Outstanding.

B (49:06)

It again, just so simple, but so effective.

A (49:08)

You know, what it really is is that. But again, want to validate what you've been talking about, the whole podcast. This is actually working on yourself when you hear, hey, I'm really working on myself right now. That description of what you just said about writing it down in the moment, getting it to it during worry time, reflecting it at the end of the week. Now you're working on yourself. Now you're making progress. That's a little bit different than just speaking outside. I'm worthy or I'm amazing or I deserve to win. That's not that it's ineffective or not important at all, but there's levels to this game of changing yourself. And what you're describing here is a real level of real change. Like, you can't do that for three months and not be somehow different. And the reason you need to be different is I want to go down this road with you on imposter syndrome. We've got some time left, so I want to cover this because I always think, what do they make? What does everyone else want me to ask about? So I want to cover this with you. I've been fortunate, as you know, to coach. You know, people have achieved at a pretty high level, including people, as I said earlier, that have run some pretty large countries, including the one we're sitting in right now, not the one who's running it now, but someone else. And I was shocked, and I worked with them post their leadership. Not during it in this case, but I was shocked with them with their guard down a little bit. Would be willing to tell me how much as leader of a large country or someone, a CEO who's leading a very big company or the best singer in the world at the time, how real imposter syndrome is for people, how real it is. And it's. It's deep, yet these people were functional imposters to some extent. It made me feel so good because I'm like. Because I suffer from this too, depending on what venue I'm in or where I go. And so I want you to speak to this for a minute. If someone's like, I just chronically have this imposter thing, what is a tool, a resource, a strategy that can begin.

B (50:57)

To chip away at it, at least so Imposter syndrome. The very first thing we need to acknowledge is that the term imposter syndrome doesn't actually exist in the literature as a syndrome. It's called imposter phenomenon. Now, if you just think about the difference between a syndrome and a phenomenon, they feel very different. A phenomenon is something that is observed from a behavioral perspective. A lot of people experience this thing. It's a behavioral phenomenon. A syndrome makes it seem pathological, like something is deeply wrong with us. It's not a diagnosis, it's just an experience. And some research has found that up to 82% of people have experienced imposter syndrome, or rather I should say the imposter phenomenon. Feeling like an imposter, like a bit of a fraud. It's usually only in people. So in order to experience that, you have to have actually achieved something, you have to have a track record of success. Success. Otherwise, it's not imposter syndrome. It's just self doubt. So that's the first thing. That's why we only see imposter syndrome in people who are achieving.

A (51:57)

Good point.

B (51:57)

And successful. Otherwise, it's just, hey, I've never done this before. Okay, great, deal with that. But this imposter feeling can either do one of two things. Either it holds people back from taking on the next step, or leveling up or going for that next opportunity. But typically what we see is that it doesn't necessarily hold them back. It just makes everything a lot more difficult. So, yes, they've just stepped into this next role. Yes, they're running a country. Yes, they're running a business. Yes, they're coaching amazing people. They're in that position and they feel like maybe I don't deserve to be here because I think other people think I'm more competent than I am. I see that as a healthy sign of humility to a degree. So if we can shift it and think, okay, well, it's good that I feel this. It's intellectual humility. I'm aware that there are some gaps, but that doesn't mean I can't learn to fill those gaps. It doesn't mean I can't grow and grow into this space. That's a good frame, really. And so just going back to something you said earlier as well before, I share a very simple strategy we have for this is too. You mentioned this idea of positive affirmations. I am worthy. I'm enough. I'm successful. What is so interesting is people who really struggle with acceptance when they use positive affirmations, it makes them feel Worse, it makes them feel worse. Because if you fundamentally do not feel like you're worthy and then you're saying to yourself, I'm worthy, I'm worthy. You have such loud self criticism that has not been addressed that it just attacks you. No, you're not. No, you. This is ridiculous. You're stupid for even saying that. And so studies have found that when you struggle with acceptance, when you have very low self esteem, these can backfire. And that's why, remember at the beginning I said, when we think self doubt is this one big thing, we think there's one solution. And then we wonder why it doesn't work. It's because it's not. It is nuanced. So what is a more effective approach? And it's, it's interesting. I saw this meme recently where, you know, if someone's struggling with acceptance, when you walk into their home and they have a poster which says, I'm enough, I'm enough, I'm enough, I'm enough. It's like, well, clearly you struggle with that. So a more effective approach is to. You have a label which will be I'm not enough. There'll be a deep scar that you hold, I'm not enough. You can't replace it with I am enough. Your brain knows better. What you need to do is slowly shift the pathway in your brain by being more pragmatic about your label or your affirmation. So instead of I'm enough, it would just be, I am learning and growing. I'm allowed to make mistakes and I'm getting better every day. Something like that is much more believable than jumping into I'm enough. I'm going to succeed. No, I have put in the work, I am going to keep putting in the work, and then I will deal with whatever comes my way. And if that is success, great. If it's not, I will learn and I will keep going. Right, so it's. Yes, it's not as catchy as I'm a success, I'm enough. But these are the tools that we need to actually move forward.

A (54:41)

Is it because you, you actually buy in and believe in that?

B (54:44)

Yes.

A (54:44)

Yep.

B (54:45)

It's much easier to believe something like that because you're not fundamentally changing a belief. 180. Yeah, you're just shifting it.

A (54:51)

That's real work.

B (54:51)

And then you do that for enough time, then you shift it again, and then you shift it again. And then slowly over time, you will start to embody that. So let's look at imposter syndrome two very simple things. The very first one is to actually just acknowledge you feel like an imposter. Again, don't acknowledge it to everyone. If you're coaching, you know, a former government of a country, you probably don't want to walk in there, and the first thing you say is, hi, I'm Ed. I don't feel like I belong to me.

A (55:15)

I really don't think I can help.

B (55:16)

You, but you can share it in safe spaces. So there's this great story that I have in the book from Jason Siegel. I think that's how you pronounce his name from How I Met yout Mother. And he was kind of the lead of that show, and then he moved into directing and his first directorial debut for Dispatches from Elsewhere. He said he was so full of anxiety and he felt like an imposter, because when you go from being part of the group to suddenly leading a group, suddenly the dynamics change. So what he did is he brought the crew together and he said, hey, everyone, I'm doing this for the first time, but there's a lot I don't know. If I do anything that bugs you, let me know, because I want to learn. So he completely owned it. And he said the moment he did that, that tension that he felt completely relaxed. So that's really valuable. Just acknowledge it.

A (56:01)

It sure is. If you guys are a leader of a company or took a new role at your. Where you work, that is a beautiful way also to ingratiate yourself to the group to some extent as well, Right? To like, hey, I'm rooting for this person. I want to work with them.

B (56:15)

Yes.

A (56:15)

Yeah, you're right. Okay, so good.

B (56:17)

Simple. Super simple. Acknowledge it. The second one is to be really pragmatic. So grab a piece of paper, split it into three columns. In the left column, I mean, you need a bit of time to do this. But in the left column, you want to write down all of the qualities that you have developed over the course of your life and your career. So not your achievements, the qualities. Some of them may be hard skills, but generally, we're talking about the determination, the persistence, the grit, the curiosity. Write them all down. Now, in the middle column, you write down all the things that you don't think you have that are making you feel like the imposter. Well, I don't have experience running a country. Well, I don't have experience running a business of this size. I don't have. Write them down. In your third column, you want to be matching up the qualities that you wrote down to fill the gaps from what you've identified in the middle. Yes. Okay. I haven't run a country, but. But you know what? I have demonstrated this quality and this attribute and this one in the past, and I can apply them right now to do what I need to do to succeed. Yes, I may not have run a business like this, but I have done this, and I've done this, and I've done this. What you're doing is reminding yourself actively that even if you haven't done anything in the current zone, you've done many other things that give you the. The. What's the word? The permission to be there and then to grow into the role. Really simple story here. So I'm going to share two of them. I think your audience will appreciate this. So if you're listening and watching, I hope you enjoy these two. The first one comes from legendary graphic designer Paula Scher. So when Citibank was merging or. Yes, Citibank was merging with Travelers Insurance.

A (57:48)

I know that merger in the.

B (57:49)

19. In 1998. 1998, I believe.

A (57:52)

Okay.

B (57:53)

So they were merging, and they needed a graphic designer to design the new logo. So they reach out to Paula Scher, who is phenomenal at what she does, graphic design. They bring her in. They're sitting around a boardroom table, they're explaining what they need, and she's listening. She grabs a napkin. She starts scribbling on the napkin, and then she slides the napkin over, and she goes, here's your. Here's your logo. Now, the room was stunned. Someone even said, how is it possible that you designed a logo in a matter of seconds? And she sat there with conviction, and she said, it was designed in a second. And 34 years, it was a designed in a second. And every experience that I've had up until this point, and then they ended up paying her $1.5 million.

A (58:34)

I love it.

B (58:35)

So the beauty.

A (58:35)

And I know that logo.

B (58:37)

Yeah, we all see it everywhere with the Citibank, you know, the little umbrella. It's a beautiful example of how she was demonstrating in that moment that what you see is just. It's not just this. It's actually everything else that I've done to bring me to this point. Isn't it a beautiful story and a great example of how we need to remind ourselves, even if you're doing something new. Okay. Actually, this is what brings us to the second story. It's much easier to do that when you're in a space that, you know. She was a graphic designer. She had all this experience in Graphic design. What if you're stepping into something you have never done? And this is where we learn about Tinker Hatfield and the Nike story. Okay, so in 1985, Nike is struggling as a business. Stock price has declined, mass layoffs. They are struggling to enter the basketball market. So they host a 24 hour shoe design competition internally for their staff. Because they need fresh talent, they need new ideas, they're desperate. Tinker Hatfield was a young corporate engineer working for Nike. He enters it and he wins within 24 hours. He's offered a role to join the design team. He's never done design before. He starts in that role and then he starts thinking, okay, well I don't really know how to design. I've never done this before. But what have I done? Well, I've studied architecture. And I remember at architecture school we learned about this building called the Centre Pompidou in Paris. And it's like this inside out building where everything that's usually hidden, the structure, you know, the structural elements, the mechanics, the elevators, they're all on the outside by design. And he thought, that's really cool. What if we did something like that with a shoe? And so he sketches out this design, this sneaker with the Nike swish. And he has this big visible air pocket in the heel to see through the shoe. And that became The Nike Air Max 1, this iconic sneaker designed by this young guy who had zero design experience. Now it also shows us that even though you don't have experience in a particular space, you still bring with you a different perspective, instincts, ways of looking at things and other experiences that can actually be even more valuable than if you had been in that space the whole time.

A (60:43)

That is so good. I wish everyone who did more work on literally listing their attributes like you said, because when I've asked people to do it, they can give me a list of a hundred things they do poorly with, like instantaneously, reflexively. Oh, I'm terrible at that. I can't do this. I'm this, my nose is this, my ears are that. And I go, okay, well what are you, what are you great at? And I watch their, their eyes go up, which is they're going to recall, and they're trying to think. They're like, well, I guess I'm, I'm like, stop it. There are so many things you bring to bear. You're not going to get through this life very well. If you're not aware of what those things are, they should be on the tip of your tongue. The front of Your mind, because that's. That's what you bring to the table, whether it's your experience, your natural giftedness, your talent, et cetera. I love. I think you're brilliant, number one. But I also like that everything is applicable. So I'm going to ask you something I really didn't see in the book or I missed it. Can I do that?

B (61:29)

Yes. Can I just share one more thing here? Okay. So we are terribly, remarkably terrible at identifying our strengths and what we do well, just a known fact, because we're so close to them that we don't even see them as special.

A (61:38)

You're exactly right. That's exactly right.

B (61:40)

And also the other thing which relates to Paula's situation is sometimes you've been doing something for so. You've been doing something so well for so long that because it's not an effort for you, you don't see it as valuable.

A (61:51)

Rewind, everybody, one minute. That's exactly right. What she's telling you is exactly right. You've lived with these things. You're great at so long, you take them for granted. You think everybody else can do it, or it's not that big of a deal. And that is absolutely a lie.

B (62:03)

Absolutely a lie. And so what's really valuable here is actually to ask other people. Now, most people will go to others and say, what are my strengths? Don't ask this question. Scrap that. When you ask someone, what are your strengths? They go into business work mode, and then they struggle, and they just list generic skills. That's not what you're asking. You want to go to people and say, when have you seen me at my best? What was I doing? When have you seen me at my best? I would love to say, this is mine. It's not. It comes from research that was done, I believe, at the University of Michigan, the center for Positive. I need to get the correct name for this. But they have actually done research and found that this question elicits so much value from other people because they're not trying to identify a strength. They're actually thinking about you in a moment, doing something in particular where you shone.

A (62:49)

Very good.

B (62:50)

And then you ask them to tell you about that experience.

A (62:52)

You know why I know? Probably 18 times that I've said very good. It's because there's so much. And I don't mean to be critical of, like, our space. Whatever this is that we're doing right now, whatever this is, it's so generic. It's so repetitive. It's so much the same stuff. It Blows me away, quite frankly, what people will pay for. When I watch people like that was the most vanilla advice. I mean, it's like it was delivered well. It was delivered well. I just said this to someone the other day ago. My industry has become people who say absolutely nothing. Really? Well, it's. And I, and I don't mean. I guess that sounds negative, but it's like, it's so refreshing to have a conversation where it's like, yeah, by the way, I've been doing this 35 years. That's new to me. That's awesome. That's true. I've done that. That works. So I love everything that you're talking about. I'm going to push you on something. Last question. And I mean, come back because I really feel like I've got through about 15% of what you and I could talk about. So we should do this again at some point when I'm out on your island. Let's just say that you're. Because there's someone listening to this day that's at this stage of their life, they did have some self confidence or self trust. They were doing pretty well. And then a disruptive event took place in their life that's altered it. I think of a time in my life where that happened where I felt like my self confidence, it was probably not as deep as I thought it was. It was more vulnerable than I thought. But someone's listening to this and they're like, you know, I thought I was pretty special and attractive and I found out my spouse was cheating and or he or she repeatedly told me for five years that I wasn't beautiful anymore, I was overweight or I thought I was a great entrepreneur and I blew it. I made a mistake. I trusted the wrong person. I lost my business. Or something's happened where they've lost something and this can cause somebody to lose themselves. It happened to me once in business when I was very young where I just couldn't get back on my feet, so to speak. I had lost that swagger that I thought at least that I had. So what would you say to somebody who's listening that goes, you know, I thought I was pretty stable at this and pretty good. But then this event happened. You know, something happened. I lost my business, I lost a relationship. I made, I've made a bad call or someone's hurt me and I'm in this. I got to get remade state. I'm not sure what to do. What would you say to that person?

B (64:59)

Three things.

A (65:00)

Okay.

B (65:01)

The first thing to Acknowledge, though, is that this undermines your autonomy. When things outside of your control happen to you, it can completely undermine that attribute. And then that fuels things and makes you feel powerless and makes you dwell and ruminate. The very first thing to acknowledge is when we're in that state, it's very easy to think, why me? Why did this happen to me? But the more you repeat, why me? The more you are victimizing yourself. Life feels unfair, things are never going to get better, and you're further undermining your autonomy. A simple way to increase your autonomy in the moment is go, okay, what next? What next? It happened. I can't do anything about that. But I control my next step. What next? What is fascinating is when we're in why me? Territory, there's more activation in the fear centers, in the amygdala, you feel powerless, but that also makes you pay more attention to everything that's wrong in your life. It's default thinking. When you shift your attention to what next, you're bringing it back to possibility, solution, finding. From there, the second step is to write down every. Okay, so when we're in the state, the why me? State, we tend to go into the land of shoulds. I should have done this. I should have been better. I should have noticed sooner. Or, I should be doing this. I should be doing that now. Ed, how do you feel when someone says to you, ed, you should do this?

A (66:16)

No bueno.

B (66:17)

No bueno.

A (66:18)

Right.

B (66:18)

We experience something called reactance, which is this deep resistance, and we become teenagers. No, I'm not doing that. Funny enough, that can happen when we use should on ourselves as well. So instead of should, research shows that there is one switch to change that word should into something else. That opens up divergent thinking, makes us more open to solutions and options. It's just a shift from should to could. Okay, you get a piece of paper and you write down a I could list all the things that you could do in the moment. They can be big, they can be small. I could do this. I guess I could do that. I could do that. And it just reminds you, hey, there are things you could do. Now you're not committing to those things, which is also very comforting.

A (66:57)

Creates possibilities.

B (66:58)

The next step is, okay, that's my I could list. What is my I will list? Pick the three smallest things on that, write them in your I will list and do them. Why is this important? Every very small step that you take rebuilds your autonomy. You're getting a proof point, an evidence piece of, okay, no matter how terrible Things are, I can still move forward. I can still do something that changes what's going to happen next. That is incredibly powerful. The final step, or the third piece here, is to make sure that you're around people who believe in you, who are positive, not the toxic optimists. We're not talking about people who say, chin up, you'll be right. You know, they can sit with you, they can acknowledge that was really tough, but who also believe in your potential. Because when you are around people who believe in you and what is possible, it's called the Pygmalion effect, you are more likely to live up to those expectations. They shape what you believe is possible for yourself. But if you're around people who have very low expectations for you, and unfortunately for a lot of people, that is your families or your friends, because they see you how they've always seen you, which is maybe how you were before, but you have grown. You're not the same person. And they unknowingly try and keep you the same, which is very difficult when you are trying to grow. You are more likely to live down to their expectations. Now, one other quick tip here. When anyone is on a journey of growth, any kind of growth, you are going to go through a lot of beautiful transformations. And what is something, Ed, that people very close to you might say, when you're going through all these transformations, there's often something that they say that is not necessarily a positive. Any idea is what, you're changing, you've changed. Yeah, you've changed. Now, if you struggle with any of these attributes, especially acceptance, your usual response to that is, no, no, no, I haven't. I'm exactly the same. And then you try and prove it to them that you're the same. And then you might do the same things you did before to try and prove that you're the same so you win back their affection. Because then if you do, then the best response in this moment, because it's never really a positive, like, wow, you've changed. It's more, wow, who the heck are you? Why are you faking it? And unfortunately, I had people that I love say this to me because they didn't understand. That was really hard. The best response that we have found when someone says you've changed is three words. Thanks for noticing.

A (69:18)

That's good.

B (69:19)

Thanks for noticing.

A (69:20)

That's very good.

B (69:21)

You are saying so much in only three words. You're saying, yes, change has been a priority for me and I've been working on it. Thank you for noticing. That I have been transforming, and you instantly flip something that is otherwise a negative into an incredible positive. Not only that, you give them permission to. To think. Oh, okay, so you've been prioritizing change and look at how you've changed. Maybe I can do the same.

A (69:42)

Very good. Very good. You are exceptional.

B (69:45)

Thank you, Ed.

A (69:45)

And this is. This is an extraordinary conversation. One of the easiest podcasts I've ever done.

B (69:51)

Oh, I'm so glad.

A (69:52)

No, you're a great guest, but your work's exceptional. You're exceptional. You don't need my validation, by the way, because you've got a ton of autonomy.

B (69:58)

Well, my lack of acceptance appreciates.

A (70:02)

Part of the profile. I still, I could still fill in for you. By the way, probably the most beautiful name that's been the history of the show, Sade Zaray. Did I say that right?

B (70:11)

Perfect.

A (70:12)

Was it perfect?

B (70:12)

Yeah.

A (70:13)

My favorite singer of all time. So this is great, her work. You guys, you should just go get the book. Big trust, Dr. Sade Zaray. And I know that you're gonna want to go get more of her. I'm going to have you back on the show one way or the other, even if I have to come to the island. Everybody, one other thing too, for me to engage with me, make sure you're getting on my email list because we're doing more stuff for the show through email. So go to edmylet.com and submit your email. Make sure you share this episode and make sure you go get a copy of Big Trust. God bless you, everybody. Max out. This is the Ed Milan show. Well, the holidays have come and gone once again, but if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift, well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless.

B (71:00)

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