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Foreign.
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This is the Ed Milan show. Hey, welcome back to the show, you guys. I am so excited. I sought this lady out to have her on the show and I was telling her off camera, I've been watching her stuff forever, but I wasn't following you. So it was very strange because she comes up in my, I watch so much of your stuff that you come up in my feed all the time. And the reason that I'm interested in your content is I believe it's so good and so valuable and so every once of all you guys, you know, I picked somebody who I had not met before and I, because I want to meet them and I want to get to know them and I'm a fan of her work. She's got a really unique story. Really unique story. Even a little Madoff in the story. So stay tuned for that. It's, it's, this is going to be a great hour that you guys are going to enjoy. We're going to talk about public speaking. We're going to talk about climbing in business. We're going to talk about the trade offs of success and what you have to give up to do that. I love the book, by the way. I read the book. I didn't just do the cliff note thing, I read the book. It's making it without losing it. She's also an expert on public speaking and we're gonna have a great journey today. Jess Ekstrom, welcome to the show.
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Ed, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. I'm so excited to be here.
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B
Yeah, you're awesome.
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A
So are you.
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B
Thank you. Off camera, I've already enjoyed our time.
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A
I know.
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B
Let's start with the headline grab first. Well, it's, if we don't get right into it, it's like, let's just do it first. Your family's uncle is Bernie Madoff. As I understand it, you're like the niece or great niece or whatever, but right to your family, he's the uncle. And in your family, my understanding is there's pretty significant loss that he actually did this even to his own family. So your family invested most of their money, is that fair with Madoff? And lost it. I'm just wondering what that time taught you about what really matters, loss, et cetera. What did that teach you?
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A
And as a public speaking expert, as you say, this will get me choked up and maybe a little quivery, so bear with me. It's not something I've talked about a lot, but I just remember in high school coming downstairs one morning and we had this routine with my parents, they would be. They'd have the Today show on. They'd be dressed to work out, the lights would be on. They'd be making breakfast. And this one morning, I came down and none of that was happening. And the lights were off. They weren't dressed to work out, and something just felt off. And I asked them what was going on, and they told me, you know, it was exam week at school. Just go do your exams. We'll talk about it when you get home. And I remember my sister and I pulling out of the driveway and my dad running out the front door and just tapping on our window and saying, one more thing. Don't turn on the news today.
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B
Oh, my gosh.
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A
And this was before, you know, we got alerts of every bad thing happening in the world, you know, sent to our phone. And so went to school, came home, there we had this guest room attached to the garage that had this TV in it that I would watch all the shows I wasn't allowed to watch because my parents, you know, couldn't hear it. And so I go in there before they knew I was home, and I turned on the tv, and that was when I just saw it on every channel was Bernie Madoff stealing $64 billion in his Ponzi scheme. It was this surreal outer body experience, because not only did I, in that moment, realize we just. My parents probably just lost everything they worked for, that our family was now swept up into this frenzy of just not knowing which way was up and. But I will tell you, it was. Wow. I think sometimes, you know, as speakers, you're, like, always trying to find what's the silver lining. And that took a long time to figure out what that was, I bet. But it happened when I visited him in prison, which, again, I don't really talk about a lot.
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B
Whoa.
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A
Yeah, I don't even. Did you even. You didn't even know that. But. So when he was sentenced to 150 years, it was in Butner, North Carolina, which I live in Raleigh. And so I was like, 45 minutes from me. This is kind of just. What do I do with that? And so I wrote him a letter and asked if I could visit him. He was very, very. Yes. Because not a lot of people were, obviously. And when I went there, you know, and sat in front of him, I kind of, you know, thought he was going to try to explain it to me in a way that I wouldn't understand, you know, stock markets and just stuff that I didn't get. But he told Me something that truly kind of changed the trajectory of my life and my work. He said this crime didn't start when I made my first bad investment. It started when I was a kid in Brooklyn and none of the other kids would play with me. And so I would go door to door with Nichols, bribing them to play with me.
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B
Oh, my gosh.
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A
And that's when I learned attention and adoration can be bought.
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B
Oh, my gosh.
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A
Yeah. Wow. And so that was.
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B
He was that open and vulnerable, was he?
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A
He was that open and vulnerable. That changed over time. I visited him for years and I think he kind of. I don't know what happened, but in the beginning it was very. He saw himself. He saw what, what, how this happened.
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B
He had done some self analysis.
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A
Some self analysis, exactly. Yeah.
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B
We. Our whole interview is not going to be about this, but I just. It's so fascinating because it's going to lead to questions I'm going to ask you in a few minutes about life in general that you've learned. But I'm just curious, how is your family. Is there a silver lining or is it just. Was it just. Look, it was just a devastating event and it is what it is.
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A
I appreciate that question because it was. Now being a mom myself, I have a one and a three year old. And watching what my parents and my family had to go through during that time and all the uncertainty, I just feel for them. But they eventually went on to. They started, you know, they had their own company and then eventually sold it and became park rangers.
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B
Really?
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Really. I mean, we were talking about this before how some people are like, they know what's enough. And even if it's not this big number that you thought that originally, years prior that they were gonna have, they helped me, you know, me and my husband with our kids. My sister became like an ultra marathon runner. But the truly interesting story, I think, from the kind of. The silver lining from this is my grandparents who were retired and lost everything. They started a cab driving company taking people to the airport. And after this, after this. So in their like 80s.
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B
Oh my gosh.
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And of course I was like, oh, my gosh. Poor things. Taking people to the airport and they should be just retired. My grandma, she always told me she thought she was like born in the wrong decade. She wanted to be just a businesswoman. And she became that in her 80s, just running this cab company.
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B
And that likely never happens. Well, certainly never happens if this tragic event doesn't take place.
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Yes.
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Isn't God awesome? And aren't human beings resilient. We have more resiliency than we realize. I mean, for your grandmother and grandfather, too, pick themselves up somehow. Clearly, God comforted them and had his hand on their lives during that time. But. But the other piece of it is we're more resilient than we think we are at that age to get back up again. That's pretty unbelievable.
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A
If you had said, this is like, what you're gonna go through or what my parents. No way. And then you realize you. You're just more strong than you give yourself credit for. Gosh.
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B
It leads to what I want to talk about today. Although I'm really glad I asked you that, because that's bizarre. I mean, that's gonna be a. That's a life event that most people. Most people can't relate to that life event, but they can relate to tragedy. They can relate to a dream falling apart. You know, in fact, most people can. And there's a lot you say in this book that interests me. Like, I wanna begin to normalize. It's okay at some point to say, this is enough. Like, the social media and the Internet's made us all think we have to run to the end of our life after trillions of dollars and three Lamborghinis. And like, it's just made that normal as opposed to living life on your own terms. We were talking about somebody off camera that I shared with you that's going to retire now, and she's living life on her own terms and I'm so proud of her for calling that shop. You have made a lot of money yourself, Young, and you have this part of the book. I forget the term that you use, but it's essentially. Actually, I'm going to find the term because I liked it so much. Making it without losing yourself is one of the terms. And the other thing that you have in there is this term. This is going to get normalized after today's show. The Arrival Trap. So you made a bunch of money, Young. It wasn't what you thought?
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No.
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B
What did you think it was, and what was it actually when you did it?
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A
I've thought about this because I think when I first started my first company, I think there was a part of me that, if I'm truly being honest with myself in this moment, was I wanted to make up for the loss that my family had just received. Not just financially, but emotionally. You know, I wanted my parents. I wanted to do something so good that the bad became white noise. And so I started this, you know, social impact Company called Headbands of Hope and went really well. We did headbands for the NBA, the wnba eventually got on to get acquired.
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B
It went huge. And it was awesome. Like the reason behind it was awesome as well.
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A
It was. And I, you know, you have this date on your calendar. Maybe it's an acquisition, maybe it's a promotion, maybe it's something. And you say to yourself, like, once I can get this, then I can relax, you know, be with my family, then I can feel successful, then I can feel fulfilled. I've not met one person where that's actually been true.
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It's not true.
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It's not true. And so this pinnacle for me, my date on my calendar was an acquisition. I'm like, once I can do something that really not a lot of women do, you know, and have this seven figure exit. And it, if anything, I almost felt worse. Because you think it's going to be the thing that makes you feel better. And I talk about this in the book. There's science behind it and Olympians face this where they go to the Olympics and then all of a sudden they are depressed after. And it's this post achievement letdown where you have so much focus on a singular moment or a singular outcome that you think is going to fix or heal or complete part of you. And when it's not, it can be extremely disappointing. And so what I am trying to fix this arrival trap of this one side, then I. That we get in our head, we all have it, but it's not going to be the thing. Like there's no single achievement that's going to cure our ambition.
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B
Yeah.
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And so if we realize like all we have is the process, who we're becoming along the way, like the fun experiments, the mistakes and there's not like one thing that's going to be this like ribbon cutting feeling, then it gets us out of this singular mindset.
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B
Yeah, you're a wise soul for being so young. Because I've made that mistake many times. Not just once. I keep moving the goalpost. Okay, so that wasn't the thing. So then if I get to this thing or that house or this achievement or help that many people and some of it becomes noble too. You think, okay, now it's not about material things. I'm going to be happy once I've helped this many people. But you're delaying this event. Have you seen. I want to just stay on this just for a second. Have you seen the show the Madison written by Taylor Sheridan?
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No, I haven't.
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It's with Kurt Russell and Michelle Pfeiffer. Yeah, there's this great. I'll butcher it. But there's this great opening scene of the show. He's this rich financial financier from New York, but he's got this place in Montana that he goes every year that's beautiful. Like it's his refuge. He's sitting on this porch with his brother. They're literally in rocking chairs looking at this river, beautiful scenery. And he's telling his brother that he was just on this vacation in the Caribbean. And the reason that you learned this lesson so young is so beautiful. And I want everybody to hear it from you. You know, he says, we're just in the Caribbean. And he goes, we're sitting on our balcony and we're watching all. I'm butchering the scene, but it's my version of it. And he said, I'm looking down at the beach and there's all these 80 year olds walking on the beach, kind of limping along. And they all worked and waited their entire life for this moment. This was the moment. And he said, and they got there and it was too late. They really can't walk anymore. Yeah, they're ill. They're suffering with a disease. They're at dinner that night and they really don't communicate anymore. And he goes, they delayed their happiness their entire life for this moment. And they actually finally got the moment and it was too late.
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A
I was with my daughter before I came here, and I got her this sticker book, and she's a big sticker girl right now. And she wanted to use all of the stickers, you know, all hundred whatever of them in one sitting. And I started to say, honey, no, no, no, no, you gotta save your stickers. You know, you can't use them all in one sitting. And then, Ed, I realized I am about to teach her what I'm actively trying to unlearn, which is delaying my joy. And I realized in that moment, watching her use all these stickers, how many gift cards do I have in my drawer that are now expired?
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B
Oh, my gosh, that's so true.
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How many outfits do I have where I'm waiting for the date night or the perfect moment to put them on and it's too late.
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Yeah, you're so right.
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And so I was like, yeah, girl, use those stickers. Use the stickers, because this is all we got.
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B
You're so right. I'm so glad that you talk about this actually, as a young person too, because I've made that mistake you know, and I'm. I'm not as young as I once was. I wish I knew that at your age. It's hard, though. Let me ask you a tough question. Theoretically, that is true, but this grind in you thing, that dog, that hunt, that I'm gonna go get it, that I'm gonna sacrifice things other people aren't willing to sacrifice. To do something great also is required. Yet you say in the book you kind of felt like you lost yourself. You actually have a whole part on that. So where's the nuance? Where's the. The sweet space you're supposed to be?
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I know, because sometimes you have. I have this fear where if. If I'm content with myself, does that mean that I'm not going to build things?
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You're going to lose the thing.
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Exactly. Will I lose my edge? And that's what this book explored. I'm like, can we do both? Can we be just ambitious towards the future while being happy in the present? And a couple things that I've learned. So ambitious people. Which you are. I am. I have a feeling anyone listening to this show is you will always have a gap.
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You got it.
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Always have a gap between where you're standing now and where you want to be. But how you see that gap is the difference.
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Okay, what do you mean?
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So that gap can either be a disappointing net loss of, like, dang, I'm not on that stage today like I wanted, that I'm less, They're better than me, or that gap between where you're standing and where you want to be, the stage you want to be on is an exciting opportunity to see what you're made of. I wonder what it would take for me to get on that stage with Ed and John and whoever it might be. I wonder what it would take for me to become a New York Times bestseller. Didn't get it this time. What? What's possible for me?
- [15:52]
B
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- [17:54]
A
So that gap can either be like a pit of despair or a sandbox of opportunity. And so how we see the gap is the game. But I think so many of us, including myself, saw any time that I wasn't where I wanted to be as a net loss, like as a I'm not there yet. And so really our ambition is pulled. We can have anxious ambition, which comes from a place we're working because we feel behind or we're in a comparison spiral, which happens a lot. Or there's inspired ambition, which is we're working because we feel like we're making something better or working something deeply interesting to us. So we got to get comfortable that there will always be a gap.
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B
I used to have the I need to bring it back. I did a whole series once on what I call blissful dissatisfaction.
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A
Oh tell me about that.
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B
Well. Well, I'll tell you briefly because I want to know your thoughts on things. But. But what I. What I uncovered, and it took me till I was about 45, I think I probably created that message and content was then was that we conflate happiness and satisfaction. I think you can live in bliss and still have a level of dissatisfaction between knowing this is where I am and this is my capacity or my potential. That dissatisfaction, I don't want to lose that. That's the pull power. That's the magnet. That's the thing that says I want to grow and expand my being and help more people and meet the version of me that I'm capable of becoming. That's dissatisfaction. I can still be blissful during the time I'm dissatisfied. In fact, some of the happiest times of my life is when I was the most broke, the most dissatisfied. It's when I was grinding. It's when the business just started. It's when I was in college with a job and playing baseball and I didn't have anything going, but I was the most happy. I was blissfully dissatisfied. But I found a way to be happy in the dissatisfaction. And I think most people think, well, satisfaction is happiness. Not always. In fact, what you said about the Olympic athletes is completely been true. They actually studied the brain. Turns out you get more dopamine, serotonin, in the pursuit of the goal.
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Exactly.
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And it falls off the charts. Once you cross the finish line and get it, your brain just stops giving you the joy chemicals.
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A
Yes.
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B
So you're totally right about that.
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A
Yeah. And something you were saying that I just realized right now is kind of a litmus test that we can give ourselves is how do we feel when we receive feedback? I used to, when I would receive feedback, it would be I would get on the defense, oh my gosh, I'm being attacked. I'm not good enough. I'm not there yet. And then now if I get feedback from credible people, I am so excited because I truly do want to know how I can be better. And so almost like, what's your disposition when someone's giving you feedback? Very good can be really telling. As to, like how you see yourself in your pursuit of ambition. Is it this like hamster wheel rat race or is it, oh, I'm really excited to see what I can become.
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B
It's also where you expend your energy. Like, I've met you now. You are what you say in the book, which I love, that not everybody that I've interviewed is who they say they are in the book. And I like this about you very much. You're authentic. And one of the things you say in the book, say it the better way, your way. I'll mess it up and then you fix it. Okay, but there's a part of the book where you're talking about this misbelief that we almost have, that we waste energy on almost stressing and fretting over the success or progress other people appear to be making. And it takes from us. You say something, say it your way, but you say something like, just because they're winning, you're not losing, or something like that. How do you say it? And what's the principle?
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A
So like any normal human being, I find myself at 9pm scrolling and comparing myself to all the other squares on the Internet. And I have found that, you know, you can see people who have something that you want in two different ways. Comparison is seeing someone else's win as your loss. You know, they got the stage, they got the TED talk, they got the, you know, accolade. I didn't get it. So therefore I'm less than them. So comparison is seeing someone's win as your loss. Inspiration, however, is seeing someone else's win as evidence that it's possible for you. Oh, they could do it, which means I can do it. That person, you know, could get it, which I wonder what their path was. And so, you know, in my line of work today, I help women speakers get on stages. And it's a very leading from evidence that it's possible and not comparing yourself to other speakers because those speakers already exist. They need you.
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B
Yeah, we're gonna talk about the women speaking thing in a minute, actually. Just speaking. Yeah, in a second, because you are tremendous.
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A
Oh, thanks.
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B
It's something I've done a little of myself, I think.
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A
So.
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B
Yeah, we'll talk about that. But before we go to that topic, because I think in order to get there anywhere, you have to make some distinctions. And I don't like reading books, frankly, at this stage in my life, I feel like I've already read that book written by another author.
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A
The book that could have been an email.
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B
Exactly.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Or it's just, frankly, someone else's work.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And that's not this book.
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A
Oh, appreciate that.
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B
And you make a great distinction in your work about the difference, again, you say it your way. Not the way I keep butchering it, but the difference between external motivation and internal. And I know it's right because I've lived it, but I Never articulated it this way. So what's the difference between the two? And is one more powerful than the other or meaningful?
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A
Well, going back to Bernie's story, I feel like that moment of when he was paying people in nickels and how just the ripple effect of that, it taught me just the deep cost of being motivated by external things and how what a slippery slope that can be. And when you base, like your success and your achievement on someone else, you're putting it in someone else's hands. And so I'll give you a quick story. I was at, very early in my speaking career, I was at an event that I spoke at, and I was very new, and there was another very big name speaker there, and let's just call him Bill for the sake of the story. That wasn't his name, but. And Bill came up to me after, and I remember he goes, do you have a valid passport? And I was like, absolutely, I do. Even though I did not. He goes, good, because I'm gonna make you a world class speaker. Like, you're coming with me. And I was just euphoric. I'm like, called my mom. I'm like, you're not gonna believe it. I met Bill. He picked me. Like, he selected me, and he's gonna make me the thing that I want to become. I waited by the phone, waited, never heard from him again. And it was this moment where I was like, oh, well, that was my ticket. Like that external thing, that person selecting me was the thing that was gonna get me to where I wanted to go. And so you kind of feel like you were holding the lottery ticket and the wind blew. You're like, man, that was it. So then I had a choice where I'm like, okay, do I just let that be the deciding factor, or do I keep being consistent, keep getting the mic wherever I can. And then that's when I started teaming up with other women who were also speaking. Let's watch each other's footage, let's refer each other. And then I started getting the reps. And eight years later, I was speaking at an event and Bill was, I'm
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B
gonna know who Bill is.
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A
And he. And I realized in that moment, like I was speaking, I was standing in the spot that I thought only Bill could get me to. And I got there through my own intrinsic work, my own, like, getting the reps, consistency, and teaming up with other women. And so I, for a long time thought success was being selected. You know, someone else would pick me and tell me that I was, you know, would endorse My book would do this. If they picked me, then I got it. But I felt like true success happened when I stopped looking for the hand and started offering one.
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B
Oh, boy.
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A
It was looking around. Yeah. And so that's where this difference between extrinsic, waiting for someone else to pick you, select you, or. Or getting the something that can be measured, whereas intrinsic is like. It has the greatest horsepower in secret. No one needs to know about it.
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B
It's very good.
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A
It's only you.
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B
Yeah. It's the idea of, like, you think you need to be invited to sit at the table instead, pull up the chair and sit there.
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A
100%.
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B
Yeah. I got to tell you, today's interesting day for me since we're going to talk about speaking in a minute, but I want you to talk about this. We're at the scene today where you and I are sitting, of really the first speech I ever gave. That was a public speech, like, literally with about. We could walk to where it is, this town where we're here. And I didn't do very well. And I wanted to talk and speak, but I wasn't my primary desire to become, you know, speak all over the world or whatever, but I just didn't do well. And I remember getting back and I want to talk about the stories we tell ourselves, because you talk about this a little bit too. So I get back and my dad's like, hey, how'd you do? And I go, it was. It wasn't good. And he goes, I'm sure it was better than you think. I said, no, actually, not just wasn't good. And he goes, well, why do you think that is? My dad always ask questions. Why do you think that is? And I said, you know, I just think the way dad, that I'm wired and I'm an introvert and, you know, and I'm not really motivated like these other people. I'm not a jump up and down, rah rah kind of guy. And so I just don't really believe. I'm kind of wired to, which is ironic because now I, you know, do it a lot. And. And I just don't think I'm. I just don't believe I'm wired to do it. And then I gave him a story of when I was a kid and my dad sat back, goes, huh? And he kind of looks down. He goes, well, I wonder what you would need to believe so you could be a good speaker. I go, what do you mean? He goes, well, what would you need to believe? Like, you don't believe. What would you need to believe? And then I go, I don't know. And he goes, I think, Eddie, I think it's in the story. If you would change the story, you would change what you believe. And I went, huh, this pretty smart guy.
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A
Yeah, now I see where you came from.
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B
Yeah, yeah, he's just a guy. You know, my dad was like, there's wisdom in there. And I started to think about what would the story need to be? What story would I need to tell myself? And I finally figured out, you know what, there's millions of people more like me than like these extroverted speakers.
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A
Yes.
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B
And I could be the one to give everybody hope that somehow someone like me, I started to change the story and I changed what I believed. You talk about sort of like the story we tell ourselves in your work.
- [28:33]
A
Yeah.
- [28:33]
B
What would you tell someone who's listening? I want to make my dreams come true. I'm being held back. I don't believe. Do you think it's probably connected to a story?
- [28:40]
A
Oh my gosh. I remember I was in fourth grade and apparently there's one day in fourth grade where you learn fractions. And if you don't, if you're not there on that day, good luck with fractions for the rest of your life. And I missed that day. And I get back to school the next day, the teacher calls me up to the board to do Some like, what's 1/4 of 80? I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't know. And I, for 30 years from that whiteboard told myself I'm not good with numbers. Like, I'm just bad at math, I'm not good with numbers. I would enter any finance meeting for my company making self deprecating jokes. Oh, like, don't show me the spreadsheet, my eyes will burn. And you know, I can't do this. And there was just one day where I finally realized this is I. This belief has been so repetitive that I mistake it for truth where I'm like, I'm running two multimillion dollar businesses, I'm employing all these people, I gotta be good with numbers, gotta have something, I can do it. And so I made this decision in that moment. I was like, no more. You know, I'm not coming in with the self deprecating jokes in finance meetings. I am not, you know, putting the numbers also in someone else's hands where I'm not aware of them anymore. And a lot of times we can track a limiting belief to an origin story. Yeah, and that was my origin story. And so once you realize, oh, that's where it was not built off of this mountain of evidence, but like one.
- [30:16]
B
One event.
- [30:17]
A
One event, yes. You know, and it can just dispel it.
- [30:20]
B
And I think the more emotional the event, the stronger the belief is rooted in our nervous system.
- [30:27]
A
Yes. And childhood. And just, you know, the vulnerability of it. I'm an introvert as well, which I also think is very interesting. Being speakers, I'm more comfortable on a stage and 5,000 people than I am, you know, one to one. Yeah.
- [30:40]
B
Really?
- [30:41]
A
Yeah.
- [30:41]
B
Very interesting. Same here.
- [30:42]
A
Yeah.
- [30:43]
B
In fact, the more people in the arena, the better I get, the more comfortable I am.
- [30:46]
A
Why is that?
- [30:47]
B
I don't know. I did last week. I had two talks. One was about 20,000. Felt good, confident, crushed. The other one was like 50 in Mexico. I had to go down there in 50. And I was. I don't know. Whatever. The thing is, I have. That is good. Wasn't there.
- [31:02]
A
Yep.
- [31:03]
B
And it was. I just felt more self. I don't know. Maybe it's because I could see every eye.
- [31:06]
A
Yes.
- [31:07]
B
So I'm thinking of what they're thinking. I don't know. But at this stage, I don't know how many people I've talked in front of, but It's. It's maybe 100 million. I don't. I don't know. I don't know. Millions, for sure. Maybe not 100 million, but millions and millions. And it was.
- [31:19]
A
I'll do the math for you.
- [31:20]
B
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. You're good at math. Turns out you're good at math. Turns out you're good at math. I. I don't know. I was like, I'm sure it went okay, but I was so nervous and so awkward, and it took me a long time to get into my flow and rhythm. Much longer than normal.
- [31:34]
A
Yeah.
- [31:34]
B
You would think the reverse. That's the easy one. There's 50 people, or it's just one on one. Ah, man, that's.
- [31:39]
A
I'm the same way. That's so interesting. I do think there's a vulnerability to a smaller audience where you can really see people. There's more. Maybe pressure is not the right word, but, like, opportunity to be more interactive. Whereas with a stage of 5,000 people, you have your set like I have you. You have your control. Not that you do the same thing every time, but you're like, I know what this. How this goes.
- [32:03]
B
I think you're right.
- [32:03]
A
Yeah.
- [32:04]
B
I think way more people want to speak than admit it even to themselves, meaning this. And this is where we're going to shift into the where you're a guru. So there's a lot of people will tell themselves, well, I don't, you know, I don't like speaking or I don't want to speak or is it you're afraid of it? I mean, there's a difference that you don't like it or wouldn't be good at it or that you have a fear for it. Most people, I think, would love to be able to get out and give a beautiful toast at their child's wedding. Right, right. Or be more effective because you teach different speaking, you teach stage speaking, but you also te business speaking, being in a boardroom, being able to communicate with 10 people sitting around a table. Right. So let's start foundationally. If you're a family that's looking for a new path to help their child succeed, K12 could be the perfect fit. K12 powered schools offers. Listen to this. Tuition free accredited online public education for students kindergarten through 12th grade. They're going to meet your child's needs, meaning they're going to figure out the best way to educate your child on their learning style. K12 has been a leader in online education for over 25 years. They're the best. They provide everything a student needs to feel safe, motivated, and then basically thrive in a learning environment. Flexible education options tailored to each child's needs, interest and goals for the future. Students will belong to a real, vibrant, engaged online community so they don't feel alone or isolated in their learning. Also, opportunities for extracurricular stuff to help them connect with peers and explore interest as well. So there's socialization that you can control and set the setting for as well. So see how K12 powered schools can help unlock your child's full potential. Enroll online today@k12.com mylet that's the letter k number12.com mylet hey guys. As a lot of you know, I've been taking Im8 for, you know, a couple years now. I've been talking about it on the show for a long time. Here's what it is. Im8 is the way to simplify your supplement routine once and for all. It's what it's done for me. Sixteen supplements replaced 90 ingredients across nine major organ systems in one drink. IMH Daily Essentials has 16 supplements in that drink, like I said, for $2.61 a day. It was founded by David Beckham and a bunch of other people. It's built by leading Doctors and researchers. I feel great on im8. I can't emphasize that enough, and I really believe you would as well. So go to im8health.comed right now or click the link in the Description and use code ED for a free welcome kit. Five free travel sachets plus 10% off your order. That's code ED@IM8Health.com ED code ED@IM8Health.COM ED these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. And, and I think this is fair to ask first, can almost anyone get good at it or is there some, like, little anointing that certain people have in terms of speaking?
- [34:56]
A
I will say something maybe controversial, but I think that if you think you're bad at speaking, you probably have the opportunity to be a great speaker because there's a curiosity, there's a humbleness to it. I, you know, someone the other day was like, well, you teach people to be experts. If you teach people to be speakers, you teach people to be experts. I'm like, no, I actually teach them to be students. Because to be a speaker, my opinion is that you now are not speaking on something that you feel like you're an expert at. You're speaking about something that you are just lifelong curious about. Because whatever topic it is, motivation, you know, whatever you're speaking about, it's gonna change how we get there. Public speaking, I don't consider myself pretty good at it, but I wouldn't say that I'm an expert because now with AI, there's just so many changes. I'm a lifelong student of it. So I think that if you almost have the fear of public speaking, I don't know if I can do this. You probably have this, like, relatable, humble approach that can make you a great speaker. Now, there's definitely tips and mindset tricks that we can get into that can help with that. But I think anyone can be a great speaker.
- [36:09]
B
Good. I'm glad to hear that. Gary V. I interviewed Gary this week. It won't be out for a while, but in fact, it'll probably come out before this one. But we were talking about. One of my favorite characteristics or qualities in my friends is curiosity. I love curious people. Because you know what? That's one of the ways you lose that kid in you. You lose curiosity. Children are so curious, right? So, like that, that, that one word right there about you're curious about this, that that should be a clue to someone as well, the fact that you're curious or it's mystical to you or man, you wish you could be better at it, that's usually. I think that's your soul saying, you should take a look over here. Yes, you should be curious over here. This is something that might be for you. Even though it seems scary, I like
- [36:53]
A
to say, you know, if a topic was brought up in a room, like, what would pique your interest? Like, I'm really excited to talk about that. Or the other thing I ask people. If I gave you money for a billboard on your local highway, and you could put one phrase on it, one thing that you want people to know, what would it be?
- [37:10]
B
Interesting.
- [37:11]
A
And people have something like, everyone has survived their hardest days. And speaking isn't about sharing your highlight reel. It's sharing, like, what you wish you would have known. I had the chance last week to give the commencement address at my high school graduation, which was awesome. And it was such a gift to be able to say, oh, what did I wish I knew in that moment? And the thing that I think a lot of speakers get wrong is that in order to teach what you learned, you have to teach where you failed. Like, you have to show where. Like, oh, that didn't go so well. And so let me tell that story. But in the beginning of my speaking career, I thought it was all about sharing why I deserve to be there, why I'm credible. I've been on the Today show. I've done this. I've done these things. I've done all this stuff. I deserve to be here. No one was learning anything. It was crickets. No one wanted to talk to me. There was no spinoff from it. And I remember the exact talk where I got a parking ticket that day. I know someone else got a parking ticket today. I got a parking ticket. It was raining and didn't bring my umbrella. And I was just so tired of trying to step into this role of being what I thought a speaker would be. And I talked about a time where I lost a family investment of my dad was my first investor in my company, and I wired that money to what was a fraudulent manufacturer, and it ended up losing that investment and what I did next, and it was the speech that made me a speaker, because it wasn't about me anymore.
- [38:42]
B
Did everybody just hear this?
- [38:43]
A
Yeah.
- [38:44]
B
So profound, what you just said. Once you start revealing your imperfections and being willing to connect with people, then you've met them somewhere. You don't have to have this resume. The resume distances you from the Room, you know, of all the. And by the way, in a minute you're tell us what you told the high schoolers. I haven't, but I want to tell you something. How true, by the way, everyone lean in here, okay? Because she's so right. Early in my career, when I was in the financial business, they would bring in all these millionaire speakers to teach. I don't know, this guy's worth 3 million, this guy's worth 2 million, this lady's worth 9 million. And they would give these talks. And I'm from a lower middle class family, poor. I was on welfare when I was a little boy. I couldn't connect with any of these guys. And one night the speaker flaked on this speaker series. So they brought in this dude. I remember his name, I'm going to say it. I don't even know if he's still alive. They brought in this man, little Filipino man. His name was Ben Patao. I sat in the front row and almost no one showed up because the name speaker didn't come. And some guy named Ben. And I remember this was a million years ago, but I remember he walked up and he had a simple suit on and he said, you know, I know you're going to have so and so here and you've had all these million dollar speakers. And he said, I don't, I've never made a million dollars a year, but I've made 300,000. And he goes, and I don't know how many of you would be interested in that, but I do know how to do that. I've done it. It took me 20 years, but I do know how to do it. So tonight, if you're interested, I can teach you how to make $300,000 in this business, man. I leaned in and he started talking about his family. He's a simple man. And simply spoken to that, to this day, Ben Patow, right, was the most impactful speaker of my life. And I am not entered. I've never said that on any interview anywhere ever, till right now. I just got gooseies. Yeah, I've been, I've talked about everything. Yeah, I am not talking to you. I am quitting that business, by the way, almost for sure. Because I couldn't relate to these suits and the shoes they were wearing and the words they use. This simple man. Yeah, and by the way, that was a lot of money. I thought, man, if I can make 300,000 in a year, I could, I could have a house, I could probably pay it off someday. It gave Me, my first dream. I couldn't buy this huge dream. I needed just a dream.
- [41:01]
A
Yes.
- [41:02]
B
And he sold me the dream in a way because he was vulnerable and real. You know, what a lot of people making 300 grand would have done, come in and faked they were making more.
- [41:11]
A
100%. Let's triple it.
- [41:12]
B
Yeah, let's triple it.
- [41:13]
A
Yeah. Round up to a million.
- [41:15]
B
Yeah, you're so right.
- [41:16]
A
People need to be able to connect the dots between where they're sitting and where you're standing and whether that's in. In an audience or whether that's on social media. But it's like, there has to be a clear path of like, oh, that's possible for me. I catch myself sometimes too, you know, as a speaker. It's like, you are. I'm speaking to, you know, these large companies, and I'm like, well, I need to. I need to step into this role of knowing everything. Like that. I have it all figured out. But I'll tell you, I mean, like the, like, I can share some of those stories and then I'll share a story about how, you know, my kid threw a fit in the grocery store and people are like, oh, I get. When I started. I've shared a couple times on stage, Bernie's story and the amount of people that have come up to me that have had something that they just have never talked about, relative, or, you know, something that they've just been ashamed or embarrassed of and how it just gave them permission.
- [42:18]
B
Yep.
- [42:19]
A
They need to be able to draw the line between where they're sitting and where you're standing or else it won't resonate.
- [42:25]
B
A lot of depth in your work, by the way.
- [42:26]
A
Thanks.
- [42:27]
B
A lot of depth. I really enjoy how you think. I appreciate what you tell the high schoolers. Give us one.
- [42:34]
A
I'll give you one thing, the thing that I think I needed to hear right now that I was wondering because I. One of my favorite parts about speaking, going back to curiosities, the pre call, you know, you talk to the event before. Tell me what keeps people up at night. What are they? What are they thinking? What's. A lot of times you have no idea. I'm like, I don't know what a insurance stock planning some, you know, I don't know. And so tell me. So I did the same. I called teachers. Tell me what this class of 2026 is feeling like they're really scared of AI. Yep. And what it's doing.
- [43:06]
B
A lot of boos at commencement addresses.
- [43:08]
A
A lot of booze. I was like, okay, let's not do that. But I was like, you got to address it, because it's here, it's there. They're like, they don't know what their place is in this. The ambition levels are low. So I'm like, what is true in this? And what do I need to tell them? And it just came back to this overwhelming belief that, like, AI makes a lot of things uncertain. But one certainty is that being a good human always wins. I mean, the amount, and I know you see this, of opportunities, promotions, partnerships. Cause they're like, ed, that's a good man. He's a good person. Let's bring him here. Like, I don't even know what, you know, maybe his topic is right now, but he's a good person. And so hold the door, take out your AirPods when you're at the airport, Talk to the, you know, older person. Pour your water, pour someone else's water before you pour your own. Just like the basic human things is our most competitive advantage right now.
- [44:15]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [44:16]
A
And so good. That's.
- [44:18]
B
You're. You're. It's so. Look, when I do the show, someone. Let me just tell you, you just explained my life to me. I'm running on the beach. I'm in Hawaii. I'm 29 years old. I'm running down this beach early in the morning. Sun's not up yet. There's a guy running towards me. That's so long ago. We're both wearing Sony Walkman. You probably don't even know what that is. But some of you, oh, I remember.
- [44:40]
A
Listen to Backstreet Boys.
- [44:41]
B
Guess who's running towards me? Backstreet Boys. Wayne Dyer.
- [44:45]
A
Oh, wow.
- [44:46]
B
Some of you don't know who he is, but he's on the Mount Rushmore of all time. Great influencers. He's running towards me. He runs by me, and I say, Dr. Dyer. And he hears me through his Walkman. I pull my eyes, and you changed my life. And he goes, I doubt it. I bet you change your life. But how did I help? And he walks up and kneels down, and we sit on the beach, watch the sun come up for an hour and a half. And he ended up being my friend the rest of my life. You said when you complimented when we were off camera about that I meet people where they are, and that's because my hero, when I met him, did it for me. Anyway, at the end of the conversation, he goes, ed. He goes, eddie. He puts his arm on me. He goes, you're Going to change the world. And I thought I was the only person he ever said that to. I'm sure he had said it to others, but let me tell you why he said it. He goes, and, ed, I do think you're brilliant, which I'm not. And he goes, in the way you communicate, I don't know that I've ever seen this before, and that's not why. And he goes, ed, will you do me a favor and never attach your confidence to your abilities.
- [45:43]
A
Wow.
- [45:43]
B
Or your results, because they're going to go up and down. He said, you'll be chasing that tail all your life, young man. He goes, ed, let me tell you why you're going to change the world. And I'm there. All ears.
- [45:53]
A
Yeah. Locked.
- [45:53]
B
He says, because you're a good man. He said, the power of your intention, Zed, you intend to do well. He goes, by the way, you always won't, but your intentions are to help your intentions. You're a good man. Do you know that? That was the first compliment of my entire life. I believed. I never believed the other compliments, that I thought, I am pretty good person, and I didn't know it. He's writing a book at that time called the Power of Intentions, which I also recommend. And so before I give a speech, before we do this podcast, before I walk into a room, before I do anything, I remind myself, I'm a good man.
- [46:29]
A
Yeah.
- [46:30]
B
My intentions are to serve. My intentions are to make a difference. And I do have very high self confidence as a result of that. And you are the only person in 10 years and 900 episodes who's ever said that on the show. First to me, that was really good.
- [46:44]
A
It is. That story just gave me, like, if people could have that moment, and I hope whoever's listening does. It's just like, that's it. That's all we got. I. My kind of gut check for this is I always play peekaboo with babies in the grocery store. I'm like, if I'm waiting in line and there's a mom with a baby or something in the cart, or I'm on a plane and the baby's like, I'm playing peekaboo. And for me, it is like a grounding reminder of just, like, life isn't that serious, and just be the good person. Like, be the. I love when people, like, come up and, like, you know, play with my kids when they're, like, being wild, and I'm just like, play peekaboo.
- [47:33]
B
You are awesome.
- [47:34]
A
Yeah.
- [47:35]
B
Okay. This is like, One of these holy spirit type interviews. I have to tell you why. So what you just said about peek a boo and have that child thing, Life's not that serious. The other thing Wayne would do with me till the day he died, he's so funny. I would get worked up about things going on in life, right. And I'm stressed. Wayne and this or that. He was a dear friend. And he. He would call me back and say, ed, listen to me. And this is what he would say to me. Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily. Ed, life is but a dream. And he would say this to me. And by the way, I'm writing a book on it right now, and I'm using it in my content. But it was the exact same reminder of playing peekaboo with yourself, reminding you, this thing's just a dream.
- [48:20]
A
Life's not dream. Take it easy.
- [48:22]
B
Because he knew my tendency was to get so wound up, just take it easy, Ed. Take it easy. He would be that person in my life. Isn't that cute?
- [48:29]
A
Isn't that good sounds?
- [48:30]
B
He was amazing. And when you have that type of person in your life, most things in life are caught, not taught. You tend to want to become more that way yourself.
- [48:39]
A
Yes, exactly.
- [48:40]
B
As you get older.
- [48:41]
A
Can I give you one more thing that is on this that I think could be helpful based on everything we're talking about one of the biggest shifts that I think someone can make. I teach this shift. I came up with it as a public speaking tip. And the more I use it at companies, I'm like, this is just a life career shift. There's two different types of speakers. There are spotlight speakers and lighthouse speakers. Spotlight speakers come up on stage, light is shining on them. They're asking themselves, how do I look? How do I sound? Do people like me? They're concerned with perception and perfection. That's how we've been trained to speak. You know, from spelling bees to whatever. We always. Or like, public speaking is about us. But a lighthouse speaker shifts the light from themselves to their audience or their listener or the grotesque baby in the grocery line. And if a spotlight asks, what does everyone think of me? A lighthouse asks, what does everyone need of me? And if you can go be a lighthouse on stage, where you're like, where are they at? What do they need? How can I help? Exactly what Wayne did for you, then you'll be okay. Whether that's public speaking, your job, your family, like, I always ask myself when I am getting really just Anxious, overwhelmed, stressed out. Where am I shining my light right now?
- [50:06]
B
Very good.
- [50:07]
A
It's usually on me. And so how can I shift from a spotlight to a lighthouse?
- [50:11]
B
Very good. Look at you. This is so good. You tell good stories.
- [50:16]
A
Oh, thanks.
- [50:17]
B
Do you think that that's part of being a great. When you're teaching these women to speak is an underlying foundation of it and if it's not, that's okay. Is part of it storytelling and being a great storyteller.
- [50:30]
A
So the method I teach people, and this is actually for anyone listening, even if you're not a speaker, have a notes app in your phone and call it moment to meaning. And what this is is it's a technique that is great for speaking but just for daily life where take a moment that happened. You're in the Starbucks drive thru line, the car in front of you pays for your coffee, so you pay for the person behind you. That's a moment, that's a story. What's the meaning for someone else who wasn't in the Starbucks coffee line? Maybe kindness doesn't have to be applauded to be good. Like you won't be able to thank that person. There are countless moments that happen in our day, big and small, that have tremendous meaning. And when we can start to kind of get that muscle of here's the moment, here's the meaning. And that makes public speaking so much more accessible because I mean a lesson without a story is just a lecture. No one wants that. And so I think keynote speaking is and just really any kind of great speaking is the marriage of both story with lesson, a moment and the meaning. But I think the key and what I see a lot of speakers get wrong is like they think that the moment is the audience is the same as their story. Oh, I'm a entrepreneur, so therefore I speak to other entrepreneurs. I am working finance, so I want to speak to other finance. I'm a mom, so I need to speak to other moms. When really the best people who can learn from you are the ones who haven't walked in your shoes and never will. And so practicing what's a moment I experienced me and how can I change? We like, what was the internal moment and someone who has never experienced that, what can they learn from it? And so the storytelling is a natural part of that and I think is really important in just being able to meet people where they are and also keep attention. Keeping attention is hard these days.
- [52:28]
B
Yeah, thank you for that. That's outstanding. I'm going to use that actually.
- [52:31]
A
Yeah, Please.
- [52:31]
B
Really, really good. Let me ask you one more question on the speaking thing, because when people think of you, I think that's one of the first things they think of is about your ability to teach people to speak. And off camera, we were talking about there's performative type speaking. Right. Which there's a place for, I suppose, personally. Wayne, by the way, didn't ever really raise his voice when he spoke.
- [52:55]
A
Yep.
- [52:57]
B
For me, when someone's that way, I tend to lean in. Now, you can't be monotone the entire time, but what. You don't seem to have that style, and I don't either. What's the difference between, like, performative speaking and what I think what you're. Some people, I think that are. That teach that. It's almost like they think they're on Broadway or acting or something. That's not speaking.
- [53:14]
A
Yeah.
- [53:15]
B
That's acting. That's a whole other industry.
- [53:17]
A
Totally.
- [53:17]
B
Speaking is depth of connection with people. Right. At least to me. What's the difference between that? Because I think a lot of people think I can't speak because they think it's almost like playing the guitar or singing. There's a performance happening here.
- [53:29]
A
Yeah.
- [53:30]
B
I don't really. It's not that there isn't an exaggerated part of my personality that will come out from time to time, but I'm not performing, nor do I want to learn performance skills to connect with people. That's not what I. How I look at it. How do you look at it?
- [53:45]
A
Some of the best speakers in the world, and you're one of them. And I bet if you have like an aura ring or something where you're tracking your heart rate, I bet that there's not that much of a change between standing in the green room and being out on that stage right out there. Is that. Do you feel like that's true?
- [53:58]
B
Yes.
- [53:59]
A
Yeah. So I think that if you can be who you are and confident enough who you are offstage to on stage, not only are you going to be just more relatable because just like we were talking about, people want the 300,000, like, tell me the. The story that I can relate to. It's the same as how we're coming across. I mean, if you have this just like, I can't relate to that kind of performative, then you're going to start to lose people. And so I also say speaking for me isn't the finish line. It's a starting block. I want speaking to lead to books. I want speaking to lead to this meeting. People. And if there is a role, I have to keep up in all these other things. That's exhausting.
- [54:45]
B
Yeah.
- [54:46]
A
You know, like, I feel so bad for some people who are, like, played a character on TV that everyone expects that character of them. And it's like, no, I am not, you know, like, that person. I'm me. And that's kind of like, if I'm going to make it, I want to make it being me. Because, one, I just. I think it's more fun that way. But two, I'm like, I don't have the energy to keep up a role in all these other rooms.
- [55:10]
B
You're so right, Amir. When I was younger, there was a different me up there.
- [55:14]
A
Yeah.
- [55:15]
B
So draining. Okay. I have to turn into this guy out there today. Like, I don't have to do that anymore. I just left the green room and I walked out. And I'm now me. All right, last question. By the way, I haven't done a lot of interviews where I'm like, I really wish we had more time.
- [55:28]
A
I know.
- [55:29]
B
Same. Thank you. That makes me feel good. Thank you. Speaking of energy, this is off. Speaking off everything we've talked about. Three year old, one year old. Okay. And I remember those days. I think probably added being a mom over a dad. There's just stuff moms typically do that dads don't always do. So unfortunately, women get asked this question more than men. But I did ask it if you were a man as well. But, like, that's a lot. Do you have a system or strategy or you just, like, losing it all the time because life's crazy. Put that. Because a lot of people saying, I'm not gonna start my second business, I'm not gonna start my career. Because almost like their kids are the excuse not to do something. Right. Because my kids are this age. Well, what if, well, now my kids are teenagers? It's like, so how do you hold all that in place and still have joy?
- [56:20]
A
Well, one, I appreciate the thoughtfulness of that question, because I am all for ask me anything, but ask the man too. I mean, there's so many times I get, well, like, who's watching your kids? Their dad?
- [56:32]
B
No one asked the guy.
- [56:33]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [56:33]
B
I had Jessica Mendoza on free espn and she says, I'm so glad you asked me it that way.
- [56:37]
A
Yes.
- [56:38]
B
Because she goes, I've noticed men don't get asked this question. I said, I'm asking the dudes, too. Right. At that age. But it is. But if we're being honest, there are things with moms I think, that are additionally taxing and responsible. That is different for a dad.
- [56:53]
A
Yeah.
- [56:53]
B
But the point being.
- [56:55]
A
Well, and I was sharing this with someone the other day. I. Because, you know, right now, book launch. We just had a conference. I'm on your show. There's so many great, kind of shiny, sparkly things in my career right now. People are like, you're on fire. How are you doing this? I'm like, child care. I have. My parents are close to by. I didn't have any. You know, we have someone that helps clean our house. We have someone who helps. Comes in meal preps. And so I think it's important to remember all of the load that a lot of women and men carry behind. Like, every woman on fire is a village she could afford. I can afford this village right now of all of this help in my house so that I can come here and be with you and that I can do this. But that's also a choice. Like, there's kind of when you start to have a family. And at least for me, I wasn't sure where the chips would fall of am I going to want help in my career or at home? I'm going to need help somewhere. Where is it going to be? And I realized with a lot of guilt that came with it, I'm being honest, that I wanted that help at home because I really love building. And my husband and I had this conversation because I always felt like every time I got on a plan plane to speak or anytime there was work and I had to say goodbye, it was a have to, not a get to. And the way I was explaining it to my kids was like, I have to go instead of I get to go meet with this guy Ed. I get to go speak on stage. So we came to this conclusion that I hope any other working moms or dads can maybe feel free to take. This is my parenting philosophy now is I want my kids to see me trying. That is, I think, more important to me than any, you know, thing that I might be able to, like, sit down and tell them for five minutes is they actually watched mommy try to build something. They. I brought my daughter to, like, my son to this, you know, book launch event. And, you know, they're one in three. They don't really get it now, but I'm like, no, they're gonna see me not just succeeding, but also not getting it. And I want them to see it all because they're watching me right now, wondering what's possible for them. And I want their answer to be anything.
- [59:19]
B
Very good. I have to tell you, I've enjoyed this so much today.
- [59:24]
A
Yeah, I forgot we were recording, to be honest.
- [59:26]
B
Seriously, I lost myself in the conversation.
- [59:29]
A
Yeah, same.
- [59:30]
B
You're wonderful.
- [59:31]
A
Same to you. I appreciate it.
- [59:32]
B
Thank you. You're needed.
- [59:33]
A
Thank you.
- [59:34]
B
Yeah. I'm going to take you around the world.
- [59:37]
A
Do you have a valid passport?
- [59:40]
B
You don't need that anymore. Where can they find you? Number one.
- [59:43]
A
Oh, yes, you can find me. LinkedIn, Instagram, JesseXTrom. Making it without losing it. Wherever books are sold, I do send out a text every Monday. That's just like a thought starter for your week. Whether it's a quote or question. Text me the word HYPE to 704-228-9495. You can meet me there.
- [60:01]
B
Look at you. Get that in there. That was good. Yeah, you're a pro.
- [60:04]
A
Thanks.
- [60:05]
B
Wasn't this good, you guys? Don't you love this when you get introduced to somebody new and you're she's already killing it and making millions and you're like, oh, if she was a stock, I'd be buying her because it's gonna keep going up. Congratulations on your beautiful family and everything you're doing. Share it, you guys. Share this episode. This is why we do the show right here. What you experienced today. God bless you all. Max out your life. This is the ed milan show.