B (2:44)

Hi. Thank you so much. I didn't even know that you knew who I was before, like, two months ago when we met on the road.

A (2:51)

I remember. No, of course I did.

B (2:52)

Thank you.

A (2:53)

So your life kind of blew up.

B (2:55)

Yeah.

A (2:56)

Right. The first part, I guess, before we go through the blow up, tell everybody sort of the genesis of what happened

B (3:03)

before the blow up, what happened September of 2021. So if we think. I mean, how much has our country changed since then?

A (3:11)

So we're in Covid at the time.

B (3:12)

We are deep in Covid, and I am working for the Walt Disney Company, because those who don't know, ESPN is owned by Disney, so is abc. And they had mandated that we all be fully vaccinated by September 30, 2021, or we would all lose our jobs, be fired. And we had plenty of notice about it. I remember in the summertime talking about it with my agent, thinking, this can't be real. Right? Like, they're not forcing us to do this. I mean, this is all so new. And we don't know enough about it to force it, do we? And I kind of ignored it and then got closer and closer to my agents. Like, you know, you gotta make a decision. And of course, he assumed I was going to do it. And I did a lot of homework, honestly. Like, it's not just for me, but I have three kids. At the time, they were in high school and college. And I have to do my homework. That is my job as a parent. And I just realized that a simple Google search taught me a lot, that the fda, on average, takes between six to nine years to approve a vaccine, usually. And we're shoving this down our throats in a couple of months with a lot of. And I think even at that time, I Felt political pressure that Donald Trump had originally been under in 2020 when it all hit. And they were like, get it out there fast. And he did it. Operation Warp Speed, I think it was called. And then when Biden came in, and it was a whole different vibe. But, hey, we're gonna force it. And it just didn't feel right. I'm no doctor, I'm no scientist. I'm the opposite of that. I talk about football and basketball and baseball. Like, that is not my lane, but it just didn't feel good. And so I said, I don't want to do it. And my agent said, well, you're going to have to get some sort of exemption. And religious or medical. And I said, well, neither one of those really apply. It's just that I think it's wrong to force someone to force somebody to do something to their bodies, period. And at the end of the day, I took the shot.

A (5:07)

Okay.

B (5:08)

And still haven't fully forgiven myself for it, for caving. But I was afraid.

A (5:15)

You're afraid.

B (5:16)

And I had, like I said, three kids. I was recently divorced, and 100% of the financial burden was on me, for everybody. And so what do you do? You weigh it, right? And okay, I'm gonna stand on my principles. Cause I'm afraid. Maybe the shot's fine at that time, maybe it's not. We don't know. Just doesn't feel right. But I have three mouths to feed and a lifestyle to keep as I'm sending three kids to college.

A (5:41)

That's real.

B (5:42)

It is real.

A (5:43)

It's real for a lot of people, too. That's why I want to ask you. I don't want to interrupt you, but a lot of people, you know, are in situations where they might like to speak up about something, but they've got this choice between, you know, staying in line in their life, even being on social media. For some people, I'd like to speak up about what I think or what I believe, but I think a lot of people, by the way, including myself, I don't. I just decided after a while, it's like, that's just not the lane I'm going to be in publicly.

B (6:06)

Well, I think it's smart. I mean, what I've done is not exactly brilliant in many ways, as far as speaking. I mean, once I got to a certain point. Yes, but I always say to people, like, do what you're doing. You know, I mean, I am the poster child for what happens when you speak up. And I'm one of. One of many. So I don't want to deter people from it. But the reason why I assume you decided that is because you see what happens. You see the ramifications.

A (6:28)

Yeah. I think also probably in my case, I just feel like there's enough people filling that vacuum in my space, in the podcast space, that sometimes people want to come kind of like sports, frankly. Sometimes people will just like to watch the game and not know all the time what every athlete thinks about every single issue. So I think sometimes on my show. But I really admire somebody who says no, you know, this is what I think. And eventually you did that. Right. You were on a podcast, I guess, is what happened. Right. And made mention of this.

B (6:55)

And podcasts, see what happens. You just loosen up and you just start talking.

A (7:00)

Next thing you know. So you kind of say something on a show and then tell them what happened.

B (7:06)

Yeah. I had actually come from getting the shot September 30, 2021. That means you had to. Pretty much, yeah. It means I had to be fully vaccinated two weeks prior to make sure it all was in my system. And I was, to the point, literally, I didn't know as I was pulling into the parking lot at a grocery store where they were administering these shots to get it. And I sat in my car for 20 minutes crying. Like, what do I do? And when I walked in and you know, the woman, she was wonderful. I'll never forget her. I wish I had gotten her name. She looked at me, and my eyes were red, and she said, are you okay? And I said, no, I'm being forced to take this shot and I don't want to do it. And I'm crying like a baby with a stranger. And she looked at me and she said, that is so wrong, and I'm so sorry. And she held my hand for a second, and then when she put it in my arm, like, it sounds dramatic, but I felt something change in me at that moment. I changed. I didn't know it at the time, but I'll never forget that feeling.

A (8:18)

What do you mean?

B (8:20)

Anger. And I'm not an angry person. I'm a happy, go, lucky person. But I had never experienced what it felt like to forced to do something. It's one thing when you're, you know, 12 years old and you're forced to clean your room if you want to go hang out with your friends at night. Like, that's a different thing. This is my body. My body, my choice. Right, guys? So I hugged her afterwards, and she was so upset, like, she was doing a job that she needed, too. Like, when you go dive deep into this stuff, it's heartbreaking for a lot of people. But I got in my car and I had committed to go on Jay Cutler's podcast. The former NFL quarterback who was just starting a podcast, and I was doing a favor for his publicist who said he needed a woman on the show. I was like, I crushed him in his bare highlights for years, so maybe I should go on and be nice. And so I said, that's why I said yes. And he. I mean, I had a band aid on my shoulder because I just gotten the shot. It was still warm weather, and I forgot. I raced and flipped up my laptop and pushed the zoom. And then he asked me, he said, what is that? And I just kind of, you know, again, I took a deep breath, and your mind goes, careful, careful, careful, careful what you say. And I said, listen, I had to take the shot today that I was forced to take if I wanted to keep my job. And here's what got me. Got me in trouble. I said, listen, listen, we're owned by Disney, and Disney requires it. And I think it's sick and wrong for any company to require their employee to do anything to their bodies, but I have a job that I need and a job that I love, and I took it, and that was it.

A (10:02)

And then just think about this, everybody. I mean, just for speaking up for what you believe. And by the way, this has nothing to do with whether you agree or disagree with one's opinion. It's whether or not somebody has the right to speak their mind. I guess, to some extent, they could come back and say, well, you represent us as well. Right.

B (10:18)

There's an element of that while complying, though, and that's the key. I complied with the rules and just said, I disagree with it, but I'm going to do it.

A (10:28)

In hindsight, true answer. Wish you didn't say anything.

B (10:33)

I'm so grateful I said it. I swear to you I am. So I literally would not change a thing, including the moment that I got the call from my agent again, who said, hey, this isn't going over very well, and the executive in charge, number two, wants to talk to you. And the feeling, I remember I pulled over the car, and I remember where I was parked. I remember every moment of it. I remember when he said, they're gonna pull me off the air and suspend me for an unlimited amount of time.

A (11:07)

At that point, after 16 years somewhere, I mean, that's a big move.

B (11:11)

Yeah. And honestly, like, I'm not Trying to. I was a model employee. I was easy as far as a teammate. I'm a coworker. I was proud of that. I mean, I'm an army kid. That's how we're raised. You are part of a team.

A (11:25)

I've been around you now for a couple months on these speaking things that we do. I think you probably have a tendency to be somewhat conservative in your politics. I think it's safe to say.

B (11:33)

Yeah, I think I come out of the closet a little bit as a conservative through the years, but I always thought it was super important to not talk about it in particular on air. I never once did on air in 29 years on local, regional and national TV. Because as a sportscaster, that's not why you're tuning in espn.

A (11:53)

That's a fact.

B (11:54)

Period. And I used to say that to my bosses and I would beg them and I would hear on the street every time I'm out at a game or at an airport, wherever. Like, would you guys just stop? I just want to get the highlights or the interviews with the coach. And I'm like, yes. That's why I got into the business. We all have opinions, and our opinions are based on our experiences. Like, that's just very basic to me. So we might disagree on, you name it, whatever it might be, politically or culturally, but I'm going to respect it because yours is based on maybe something that you experienced that was difficult, that I'm not a part of. So who am I to judge? And I really feel so strongly about that. And yes, it had come out, but my, I think professionalism and I just. I loved being friends with everybody. Everybody. The crew is better than half the people I worked with on tv, I'm sure. And so that's important to me. And so I never would bring that stuff up because it doesn't affect how I think of you as a human being. So, yes, people knew, but I still was respected and liked because they're more important things. For a while, what you said about my co workers at the time speaking up politically on tv. So that's where everything changed. Because I was suspended. I was pulled off the air. I was made to publicly apologize. And of course, they distributed it to the LA Times and the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Post and the New York Times. And, you know, here, let's make her apologize, and we're going to crush her and then we'll let her back someday. And it was about two weeks later when they let me back. Then they were going to take assignments from Her. And that was the key. I'm like, wait, I apologize. We moved on, but you're still going to take hard earned assignments from me. Which one is it? Are we allowed to talk about our personal beliefs or not? And oh, by the way, that was happening on ESPN airwaves. What I said about my opinion on being forced to take a Covid shot was on an off day, on a side podcast. So all I ever asked for was consistency. And when they continue to allow that to happen on bigger and bigger levels and more consistently, my. I talked to an attorney and he said, you know what, if you just apologize to her for the double standard, she's good. And they laughed and laughed again. So that's when I had decisions to make about, do I stand up here because of the hypocrisy? And I also, ed, I knew, like, I was just. I was one of a handful of conservatives there who had been so fearful of speaking up and were silenced. So I thought, this isn't actually just about me. I had probably the highest position or the biggest role, I guess the biggest platform at that time. And it hit me like, I am here for a reason. For these other people who are whispering to me, thank you, and young women in the bathroom who would whisper and make sure all of our mics are off, like, thank you for what you're doing. You're helping me. And that, like, that hit me hard where I felt I would be a failure to them if I didn't speak up. So that's why I sued the Walt Disney Company. Not for making me take the shot. It was the hypocrisy of what came after.

A (15:06)

I think that's fair. You know, I'm wondering. That's just stressful. So I want to kind of bring it to where someone listening is. How does this apply to me? Right. One, evaluating, speaking up, speaking your mind, and by the way, supporting people who do even that you disagree with.

B (15:21)

Yes.

A (15:23)

It's fascinating to me that I actually love hearing people's ideas. I don't try not to watch too much political TV anymore because it just stresses me out. But when I do, when a story comes out, I love to watch like Fox News and hear what they say. And then I go, I'm gonna flip it to msnbc. And I wanna just hear how they both frame something, how they position.

B (15:42)

It's hysterical.

A (15:43)

It's hysterical. It's fascinating. And so I'm actually, I like free speech. I wanna hear people's ideas. So I would support it, whether I agreed with it or I disagreed with it. And that's the point of what I wanted to ask you about. But the other point, I know what it's like to be in the public eye, and I know what it's like to get a lot of hate and disagreement and pushback. I don't know what it's like to be the breadwinner in my family and lose my career, though, and then lose my marriage around the same time. And so your world's crashing in. There are people listening to this right now that their version of what you went through is happening. Something in their life just fell apart. Someone died that they love. There's a relationship that ended, a career that didn't, a business that failed. How did you get through this? And what advice would you give to somebody that came out to you at a Starbucks? They said, sage, your story inspires me. And I'm going through my blow up of my life, my life, Armageddon. What would you say to them?

B (16:39)

Yeah, well, there isn't just one way, that's for sure. And it might be different for each person, but prayer that I was doing, but not enough of and to really mean it and to really give up control and ask for help and guidance and clarity. And it came awfully fast when I did that.

A (16:59)

Really?

B (17:00)

Yeah. But it started at the darkest, darkest moment. So when I was suspended, you know, and at the time, Twitter, it was still Twitter, not Elon's ex. And just a different world. And my. I mean, I had colleagues I was working with who went on Twitter and said all the things about me. And it was allowed once again, like all the. And threats. I mean, threats to me, serious threats. Threats to my children. And I remember just curling up in a ball, put the blackout shades down and curled up in a ball in my bed and was sobbing like, what have I done? I'm so stupid. Like, this is my fault. And I was as sick as I've ever been in my life. From COVID From COVID After I got the shot that was supposed to prevent all this. So all of this at once. It was the darkest moment. And I just was like, I'm sorry. God, I'm sorry. I'll do whatever it takes. Just. Do you want me to keep apologizing? Do you want me to just fix it? So scared.

A (18:04)

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B (20:06)

and my mom and dad are my life besides my kids and my husband obviously. But my mom and dad have picked me up at times when I didn't think I deserved it and they my dad still is but at the time was undergoing chemotherapy.

A (20:22)

Oh my gosh.

B (20:23)

And my mom got in a car and drove up and picked my butt up off the ground because I was broken and I was done and I wasn't allowed to see other people because I was contagious. And so my kids were with their dad and I was alone for eight days. My mom and dad said no and came and picked me up. And, you know, my dad, who's a Army, a retired army officer, a West Point grad, tough guy, tough as nails. He has empathy. I'm his little girl still. But he's like, okay, you have a choice to make here. Like, are they gonna win this? Are you gonna let them do this to you? Are you gonna stand up, like, get back to work, put your head. You know, keep your head up high? And I was like. I mean, I walked in there, lost £10 during that time. I was scared to death. And then what happens? You have to. When that light goes on, ready or not. And so, yeah, everybody has issues in their lives and problems and relationship issues and kid issues and whatever it is. But with our job, when that light goes on, like, if you aren't ready and don't perform two hours of live national TV every single day, you're out. So I had to compartmentalize. I became a much better actress than I thought, so I would pass that along, too. Like, you're gonna go through it, but you still have to function. So figure out ways to put it in the back, like, kick it to the back of your mind for whatever that time period is and go back and deal with it. It's not gonna go away, unfortunately, as much as we might wish it away. Right. But I learned a lot about myself during that time.

A (21:58)

What you learned?

B (21:59)

That I am a lot tougher than I ever dreamt. And to walk in there every day knowing that half my coworkers, if not more, hated me just for my opinions and still having to go on and, you know, and sit next to them. But it was. Once I got in there, I would feel this, like, calm, peace, power come over me because I loved my job so much. It still gets me to the. To. To the very last day. Like, I loved it. So how could I let them take that joy from me, too, when I knew I was good at that? I was good at telling stories and good at doing highlights and good at interviewing people, even if I only had four and a half minutes before break to make them feel comfortable enough to give me something different that they hadn't given to another anchor. So I kept feeling this strength that I would gain every day that I would walk in there. The last thing that I would share is this story with my son. Fast forward a couple of months, and when I decided to file the lawsuit, and the night before I filed it, I spoke to each of my kids separately. My oldest was a freshman in college. My son was a senior in High school. My youngest was a daughter, was a sophomore in high school. And the girls were pretty emotional about it because what happened is every time I had spoken up about something or gotten in trouble in this case, people come after them and Mama Bear comes out, and I want to hurt everybody that you know, teachers, coaches, friends, parents would say things to my kids about me, like, really, shut up. Come talk to me if you have a problem. But in particular, I went to my son, who I always say is, you know, in the middle of these two psycho girls, psycho sisters of his, and I said, listen, this is what's happening. Tomorrow. There's going to be some headlines, and I want to apologize now for what is going to come our way. And you don't ever have to defend me. Just tell people who give you crap. My mom has a right to her opinion. I don't always agree with my mom, but she has a right, and so do you. First Amendment, freedom of speech. And I said, but I'm sorry, buddy, for what's gonna happen. I just have to stand up for this. This is wrong. And my son put down what he was doing. He looked at me and he said, mom, it's about time you stood up for yourself.

A (24:16)

Wow.

B (24:17)

Wow. One of the greatest moments of my life as a mother, for sure. And it also taught me that I had been living the wrong way. Meaning I'd been quiet, I'd bitten my tongue for so long doing what I thought was the right thing to protect my kids, protect my livelihood and my job, but protect my kids. Protect people who love me from getting the shrapnel right. And what was I teaching them? I'm preaching them to stand up and be tall and be strong and stand up for yourself. But then I'm practicing the opposite, and I'm silent. What a cop out. What a sellout. So at that moment, I knew. I'm sorry. Like, I knew at that moment that no matter what happened with this insane lawsuit of little old me, David versus Goliath, against the Walt Disney Company, that even if they crushed me, which they did a good job of financially, within 0.5 seconds, right? It's Disney. How am I gonna. But even if I lost, I would have won because my kids saw that their mom was like, enough. No more. And then I know now that they're not gonna wait till they're 50 to take a stand. And then I didn't lose. I settled out of court like it was a win, but for the sake of principle, not money or anything else. It's like, don't you dare. So that's why your original question about I wouldn't change a thing. Because most importantly, my kids, they're gonna live differently because of what they saw me.

A (25:55)

That's so beautiful, by the way. What the heck happened to us as a culture?

B (25:59)

I know.

A (26:00)

What the heck happened? Like, I probably only cried five or six times on the show. He just got me.

B (26:06)

I'm sorry.

A (26:08)

I'm just picturing you at that time. Sage. Just. It's different just when you hear a story. But I can picture it like, the world's crumbling and this woman's gonna stand up. But what happened to us? We're like, you know, I think one thing about taxes or whatever, and you think another, and now we hate each. What the heck happened? It feels like it's the last 10 years or so this has happened. This wasn't when I was a little boy. That was not how we treated one another. It was.

B (26:38)

You're right.

A (26:38)

It's just crazy.

B (26:40)

I mean, honestly, it's so emotional the

A (26:41)

way humans treat one another now.

B (26:42)

It breaks my heart, too. And it started. I think people didn't feel it, but probably 2008, 2009, 10. That's when I felt it. And I guess we need to, at some point, as a society, dig into the why. But the key is, where are we today and what do we do with it? I will say, like, I. I'm mad at myself for taking so long to figure it out, but it takes what it takes, and the journey is the journey. But during that time when I lived in fear, long before the cancel, that official cancellation, there were a couple along the way, but that was the big one. But when I started to speak up on other things, I remember walking in airports. I lived in Phoenix at the time. I was hosting all of our NBA coverage in Los Angeles, but lived in the Scottsdale area. Didn't want to live in la, so I just did. And I was always at Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix, you know, twice a week. And I remember after I said something that I thought was pretty innocuous, that got me in trouble, walking through the airport, eyes down, eyes at the ground, so afraid of making eye contact. Because what I saw on social media and what my boss is in front of friends told me was that I was a pariah and I was hated, and I believed it. So that's where I. Another moment where I get choked up if I think back to, like, trying to do the right thing and be true to myself. Everybody else is allowed to be true to themselves. Right. If you think a certain way and going to do the job that I love, but like walking in fear everywhere. And I don't want anyone else to ever feel that way, it can take over. And I feel so blessed and fortunate that I got out of it, you know, again, by the grace of God.

A (28:32)

Yeah. I think everyone, your advice is incredible, by the way. And I think just the other thing, lessons for those of you that are going through it. Just listen to what she said. Because I'm around her now. I see her now. This will pass. This too will pass. And if you're faithful and you surrender the things of God that are out of your control and you take control of the things that you can. My dad was an AA. He was sober for 35 years and always mess up the saying, but essentially it's, you know, discern between the difference of the things you can control and you can't and give up the things you can't control to God. It sounds like you really did that.

B (29:02)

Can I ask you a question?

A (29:03)

Yeah.

B (29:04)

Because one of the most beautiful things to come from the chaos and the fear and all that is I've finally gotten over that fear of being disliked. And that's what people also have to think about, too. It is scary for all those of us pleasers in the room, you know, but in general, it's a whole new world. It doesn't mean that I don't care and have empathy, and I really do, but I cannot control what you think of me. Even if I treat you like the President of the United States, whatever, the king, I still can't change it. So if you don't like me, I gotta let go of that. I assume you let go of that.

A (29:44)

I had to. Do, you know what I learned to do? It is in speaking like, if you're walking out in front of 20,000 people, if you're worried about what every single person in there thinks. Right. Like, yeah, I think. I don't. Well, let me be honest. Let me be honest. I think I've gotten better at that. I think there are still occasions where I'm too concerned with what people think, even in my mid-50s, but far less than before, just because I know that I can't control it. I actually don't think it's really any of my business. But I also listen to it a little bit because at least in my youth, there were probably reasons some people held opinions about me. So I like to look at it and go, is there any validity to what they're saying? And if There isn't. Then I'll let go of it. But I make enough mistakes from time to time that even yesterday, one of the speeches I gave here, I made an error on stage. There was a guy with a phone in the front row on his phone. And as a pro with, you know, thousands of people in there, you just keep talking. And I just couldn't take my eyes off this guy. So finally I called him out in front of the entire. And I told him I loved him, et cetera, et cetera. But it was really my ego and my temper just for that flash second, getting a little bit better of me. So if that guy didn't like me, he's probably justified not to. So I'll listen to it a little bit. But for the most part, I've let go of that. I really care what God thinks of me and some close people that I know that'll tell me the truth. Right? Like, hey, you overstepped here, or you've made a mistake. But for the most part, I think I've let go that my year for the. My word for the year last year was surrender, meaning just because I'm a control freak. And I think successful people love to be in control. But you can take that to a point where it's so painful and excruciating, like what you were going through. I also think I heard this story I wanted to ask you about, and I want to hear you tell. Because I haven't heard you tell it. I heard it through third party. But you might have been a little bit built for this. A little bit in the sense that your parents are biracial. If I'm right, your father's black, your mother's white. Correct. And they chose to do that at a time where it's not quite as acceptable as it is today. And even today for some people, it's. For some fringe crazies, it's still not acceptable. But there's this story about. Tell the story, if you would, about your dad writing a letter to your mom's dad. And this is built in the sense that this is somebody giving grace to somebody who doesn't like them also. Right. I think for the wrong reason. So it's not just not caring what people think, but actually maybe the elevated level where your dad was. Well, where I'd like to get is where I can even give grace to people that do ill towards me.

B (32:22)

Yeah, I have some work to do in that category. So do I. I need to ask my dad.

A (32:28)

Sounds like your father did a lot of Work on that, though. This is an incredible story, if I heard it right.

B (32:32)

Yeah. Thank you. It's something that I didn't know about with my parents until they were interviewed by NFL Films. My brother, one of my two brothers, is the senior vice president of public relations and communications for the Baltimore Ravens, and he's been in the NFL for 25 years in PR. And so the NFL Films was doing a story on him, and in doing so, wanted to talk to my parents and then discovered this story. I didn't know it until they told it on camera.

A (33:00)

Wow.

B (33:00)

And basically, 1971, October of 71, my parents got married. And my mom's parents were not there. They chose to not be there. They were against her marrying a black man. And again, a very different time. I believe we do need to give some grace, especially when people change and evolve, and we're all capable of that. And my family is proof of that. But my dad, of course, was upset. This is his wife, and he wants to protect her and of all people, to not support her. It's her mom and dad. So they got married anyway. They did not show up. My mom's brother came and walked her down the aisle. And by the way, I think about strength and my mom being 22 years old and having to make that decision. Are you kidding me? So there's so much.

A (33:51)

There's a lot there.

B (33:51)

I'm so humbled with my little spat with Disney. Like, look at that. That's it. That's. I mean, you're 22. And so then, you know, my dad's in the military, a young officer, and they moved to Panama, where I was born. And my mom called her parents to say, I'm pregnant, and she's the oldest of four, and I'm gonna have your first grandchild. And her mom hung up the phone.

A (34:15)

Oh, my gosh.

B (34:17)

And again, I think about myself in that situation, and I just. I've sobbed thinking about that, because my mom was there the moment I gave birth, all three times, you know, and so that upset my father, as you might imagine, as it should for any

A (34:32)

man, simply because of the color of his skin.

B (34:34)

Yeah. But he wasn't as concerned about their. Why he was concerned about their decision to do that to their daughter. And so what he began doing is writing letters, penning letters. Pen and paper. We weren't on computers then. Right. Once a month to my mom's parents, and sent them from Panama, Canal Zone, Panama, to West Springfield, Massachusetts, where they lived in their small town. And my mom, as she says on this NFL Films piece, which is still out, I'd love it if people took a look at. Gary Steele is my dad's name. And it's the most beautiful piece that I cry every time I watch it. And I've watched it 10,000 times. And my mom says on the piece, like, I don't know why he did it. I kept telling him, they're not gonna read it. They're not gonna answer, and you're wasting your time. Wow. And my dad looked in the camera and said they needed to know that I was taking care of their daughter. This black man was taking care of their daughter. And then he said it was the harder right because he's ticked off. The harder right comes from West Point, where he graduated. And it's part of the cadet prayer that I try to share whenever I'm given any platform. Help me to choose the harder right instead of the easier wrong. And never to be content with a half truth when the whole truth can be one. So in that moment, my dad chose the heart of right once a month to write that letter. Almost seven years later, there was a meeting. My mom's youngest sister hosted Thanksgiving. Didn't tell my mom and dad that the parents were going to be there. Didn't tell the parents that my mom and dad were going to be there. They walk in assigned seats. My aunt sat, my dad and my grandmother next to each other. And in this family, we hold hands when we say grace, a blessing over our meal. And her mother wouldn't do it. And she said, the younger daughter said, mom, in our home, this is what we do. She did that to my dad, and he held her hand tightly.

A (36:40)

Oh, my gosh.

B (36:41)

And later that day, on Thanksgiving Day, my grandfather, my mom's dad, kind of apologized. We found out later it really wasn't his idea. This was more my grandmother who struggled so much. My grandfather went along with it, and he said, listen, Gary, I'd like to put all this behind us and, you know, start over. And my dad said, okay.

A (37:07)

Wow. He did.

B (37:08)

But we will move forward. I will never forget what you did and didn't do for your daughter, my wife, but I will forgive. And today is day one, and we go forward from here.

A (37:22)

Oh, my gosh. So you know how when you're doing something that's good for you and then you stop doing it, all of a sudden you feel, what the heck changed? So here's what happened to me. I've been feeling great for, like, a year and a half. It's because I've been on IM8. Then we moved to our place in Maine and I didn't bring my supplement with me. So if you've been looking for something easy to stick with that actually makes you feel better, this might be it for me. It absolutely is something I rely on and I noticed when I missed a few days. So give your body what it deserves with IMA. Go to im8health.comed and use code ED for a free welcome kit. Five free travel sachets plus 10% off your order. So seriously, this is one of those offers you're going to wish you jumped on sooner. That's im8.com/ed and use code ED for a free welcome kit. Five free travel sachets plus 10 off your order at imaidhealth.com ed code ED these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. So you know, we talk a lot on the show, often about health and energy, vitality, strength, wellness. You know what it comes down to more than anything I found out after about a thousand interviews. Food like what you're putting in your body, you cannot out train a bad diet. What it really comes down to is what you're eating. And you know what? We all want to eat home cooked food. That's why I love hellofresh and it's delicious food. Like I, I've never had any more healthy food in my life that tastes this good. They got 35 high quality protein, different meals, you got GLP, one friendly ones, you got Mediterranean. They got all wholesome ingredients, none of the bad stuff that you put in food. But the other thing that I like about them is you know what, you can get seafood on there now for no upcharge. There's three times the amount of seafood on there. My favorite by the way is the ribeye. So go to hellofresh.com mylet10fm to get 10 free meals plus a free zwilling knife which is $144 value on your third box offer valid while supplies last. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan.

B (39:23)

So my parents. And that's when it came full circle, right again. Something that I believe what I went through is much less important than what my parents went through. But if they could do that alone, early 20s, they were babies. Not a penny in their bank account. By the way, if you're trying to get rich, you're not joining the military, okay? Like who am I to live in fear? Who am I to choose the easy or wrong. So the harder right was to say, wait a minute, Disney, this is what you're preaching?

A (39:56)

Yes.

B (39:57)

Yeah. So I don't know, was I made for it?

A (39:59)

Yeah. Well, that adage that God doesn't give you anything you're not capable of handling clearly is because of the way that you were raised, though. I mean, that is one of the easily greatest stories I've ever heard in my life. And the way you tell it, by the way, you don't know what you're doing to me today. Sorry. I can picture your mom and your dad at that age and that time and then calling to be excited that you're gonna have your first baby and have your mom hang up.

B (40:24)

Breaks my heart.

A (40:24)

And then for your dad to give him that grace, though. But to say it like a man too, though, you know, hey, don't forget.

B (40:30)

And my dad, if you ever meet him, and hopefully he'll come to you,

A (40:32)

I'd love to meet your father.

B (40:33)

Oh my gosh, he would love to meet you. And I want him to see what all of this is about. He has since shrunk. He's 79, but at his peak when he played college football at army, broke the color barrier. First black man to play varsity football ever at Army. My gosh, I know, he's amazing, but he was six, six and a half, 220 pounds. And you think about that in the mid-60s.

A (40:55)

Oh, he's a giant, absolute giant. Oh my gosh.

B (40:59)

Now he's about 6, 3, maybe 6, 4.

A (41:02)

A big man.

B (41:03)

Still 240 now. And he looks great even with all of his health issues. So I picture my dad as that, with that calm but firm voice, looking down at my little 6 foot, 3 inch Irish grandfather, saying what he needed to say. By the way, I have actually never told the story because it's always on the video clip that I play.

A (41:31)

Got it. I'm so glad you did.

B (41:34)

I thank you for asking me to. It brought me back to it, to hearing like. That was my dad's voice that you just heard.

A (41:41)

Yeah, because that's your face change too, by the way.

B (41:44)

Did I get tough and strong and mean? You did, but he's not mean. He's the biggest teddy bear. Well, it's because I'm his favorite child, obviously, so he's nice to me.

A (41:52)

We should send this clip to your brother for sure.

B (41:54)

Two brothers.

A (41:54)

Yeah, two brothers. I'm gonna ask you, by the way. I'm just taken aback by that story. And it is, you know, that Adage that success leaves clues, strength leaves clues. There's footprints in your life that prepared you for this time. That's like, I just didn't know. Isn't it kind of obvious to you though, like, as you tell that story yourself, like, that's. Come on. I mean, what you went through is unfair and wrong regardless of the political part of it. Who cares about that part of it? Right. Like, the point is, should somebody be able to speak up or stand for what they believe in or not? Should it cost them their career? And why is it okay, no matter what side you're on, that one side can speak their mind the entire time and the other side can't even give a peep, not even on the platform?

B (42:35)

Correct.

A (42:36)

That's just wrong.

B (42:37)

And that's what I do need to clarify one thing, and that is what the lawsuit isn't about. You know, oh, you suspended me in unfairness. It was about that hypocrisy, but more so the suspended suspension of me.

A (42:47)

You weren't on air.

B (42:48)

I wasn't on air. And there is a fascinating. It's First Amendment, but not in the constitutional, governor, you know, like government way. Obviously there's a statute in the state of Connecticut and it's employment related that I, I didn't know when I was saying any of this. I didn't care. I was just being me, but being respectful, saying, hey, this is my opinion, not my companies, and I'm complying. But you are allowed to be critical of your employer if you are complying with their rules in Connecticut. In the state of Connecticut. Check your state. Of all states. Of all states. Connecticut. Are you kidding me?

A (43:24)

Surprising.

B (43:25)

And so I had no idea. But that's what the lawsuit was based on. Because everyone says you're an idiot. First Amendment doesn't apply. And it's a private employer. Yeah, absolutely. Where you live and where you are employed matters. And that's, that's how we did it. And it wasn't. Again, I don't care about the legalese, the principle of this. And my hope was, my goal was at that time to file it was to just make employers think a little bit. And remember, you have human beings here. Yes, we all have numbers and goals to reach, et cetera. But at the end of the day, every employer, you get more out of your employees when you treat them like actual human beings. I always say just pretend like you care even if you don't.

A (44:06)

Right. That's so true. By the way. Just keep going back, listening to you. And by the way, we all live through this. So we know it. But, like, what in the heck happened to us? Like, in your case, it's like a medical decision. I mean, it's not even that controversial, really. It's like we hate each other over politics now. Like, what are we, crazy? I remember a long time ago, Clinton said. Bill Clinton said, and I'll mess up the quote. But it's there. He's like. And I'm not even saying he was actually virtuous in doing this, but I remember him saying. I'm like, I agree with that. I don't even know if he meant it. But along the lines of, this shouldn't be about right, like, who's good or bad, but, like, who's right and wrong about something. And even if you think someone's wrong, it doesn't make them bad or evil or sinister or your enemy. It's just. Especially people of faith. What's wrong with us? Like, this is your brother or sister in the body of Christ, and you're going to hate them because they got a different opinion about a gun or a different opinion about taxes. What is wrong with you?

B (45:01)

Well, but there's the. The problem is sometimes when the truth does come out, and in this case with COVID there's no accountability. Like, I was actually right. You're right, and I wasn't. Rocket science, by the way. It doesn't take much, but, like, sometimes if people come back with contrition and are accountable, then that helps. I mean, that's the human element of it. But it's much bigger than that. To me, in my humble opinion, this is an intentional, evil, deliberate attempt to take God out of things. That's what's missing.

A (45:37)

Let me have some fun with you about something. I want to ask you about something funny since we've been so serious today. So when you're on camera enough, you're going to make a screw up.

B (45:44)

Oh, so many.

A (45:44)

Now watch this. I'm going to give you mine. So I've had a couple but, like, zillions of hours on camera, right? So I'll start with mine, and then I want to ask you about yours. And the reason I'm going to ask you about this is I want people to know it's. You're okay to make mistakes and just own it, but make mistakes and move on, and you can survive through the things you're even the most afraid of. So here's mine. I had a book out called the Power of One More. It did great, but I'm doing a million hits. For the book, podcasts, TV shows, you know, and I told some stories about the book. Anyway, I'm on one of the shows. It's my eighth show that day. I'm tired. I don't remember which story I've told on which show. And a good friend of mine, it's Tom Bilyeu, he has a show called Impact Theory. He sets this question up. He says, hey, people are probably going to think you're crazy, but you have this way that you manage time. You almost manipulate time in your mind the way that you do it. I'd like you to explain how you do it. And so there's this clip of me that went like hundreds of millions of views. I just look a complete moron. And I say, yeah, I manipulate time and I go to tell this story and I misspeak. I say, and so you're like some guy living in a cave 300 years ago. I meant to say 3 million years ago, which I had said on 150 other podcasts, but I misspeak. So this viral clip goes out of me sounding like a complete idiot. Valid. I was an idiot. And it was pretty embarrassing. And so I had to get over the embarrassment of making this mistake. I'm watching a clip of you with my dude, Dana White.

B (47:14)

I knew it.

A (47:15)

Okay, I just gotta ask you, I wanna know your opinion about it. This is real. And so you're about to interview Dana White and you call him Joe Rogan. You had to be embarrassed when you did this. What's the. And then the reason I asked you, I'm getting here.

B (47:28)

I love it.

A (47:29)

You didn't know I was gonna ask you, so mine's worse than yours. Okay. And by the way, my clip was more viral, but we both sit here as two people who looked pretty damn funny on the Internet, right?

B (47:37)

Oh, yeah.

A (47:37)

And so a lot of whatever each of you fear in your life right now, you'll be okay. Cause we've both made this mistake. What happened? I'm like, what advice would you give to somebody seriously, who's right? Cause you and I, I said, people live in caves 300 years ago. And I can manipulate time. And I'm. I'm not crazy. Like, I've just looked like a complete wing nut in this clip. You don't look very favorable in that clip. So what would you say about that?

B (48:00)

Well, yeah, 10 years ago, great question.

A (48:02)

You didn't know that was coming.

B (48:03)

I didn't. But as soon as you said the embarrassing moments, I'm like, okay, here we go. Because that's probably number one.

A (48:10)

Yeah, that was my number one for.

B (48:12)

Yeah, I mean, and that's okay. There might be more to come. Who knows?

A (48:15)

Oh, maybe this live.

B (48:16)

Hold on.

A (48:17)

Maybe our interviews. Maybe it's in this.

B (48:19)

Okay, first of all, yeah, I've gotten crushed for. She didn't even know who she was interviewing with. An idiot. Typical broad sports. I booked Dana. I've been friends with Dana for years. As Dana sat down, we were chit chatting and chit chatting. And it's like, finally, like, okay, let's start the interview. Because we could talk all day. And he had a protein can of protein, whatever that drink was. And so I asked him, I was like, what is it? He's like, yeah, Joe Rogan made it. And I was like, oh. And I took a sip and it was good. And we kept going. And then the viral moment was 90 minutes in. So when people say she didn't know who she was interviewing, I'm like, guys, this happened at the end of the interview. However, apparently I had said it earlier, after he did the drink thing. Cause he said Joe Rogan. And so Joe Rogan's. In my mind. They worked together. Dana hired Joe. Like, they look somewhat similar. Like stocky, muscular, bald, white guys. Right?

A (49:18)

Yep.

B (49:21)

Dana said it.

A (49:22)

We all look alike.

B (49:23)

Yeah. Hey, trust me, I hear that all the time. You know, and so I didn't know. And Dana didn't know that I said it earlier in the podcast after he had said, yeah, this is Joe Rogan's drink.

A (49:34)

Got it.

B (49:34)

Fast forward 90 minutes later. And it was just a total brain fart from the beginning of the episode when he. I'm like, dana, this is your fault. You put that name in my head. But when I noticed, I didn't even notice it until he reacted. And it was just the most classic reaction. And I won't quote him for obvious reasons, those of you who have seen it, but he's like, she just called me Joe Rogan. And it hit me, and the feeling in my chest, in my soul, I started sweating everywhere. I was like, and he's a friend of mine. But I knew, like, you can't get out of this one.

A (50:09)

But that's great context. It's 90 minutes in.

B (50:12)

It was at the end of the interview.

A (50:13)

Didn't know that.

B (50:15)

You said at the beginning of the interview, like, no.

A (50:16)

Oh, hold on.

B (50:17)

Let me clarify.

A (50:17)

There we go.

B (50:18)

Because the clips, there's never any context. Right. And that's how it is. Same with yours. And so at that moment, he goes, did you just Call me. Did she just call. Did you just call me? And I go, I did, because what are you gonna do? Like, say, no, I didn't. You know, get your hearing checked? No, like, and he. And then he. It went on and on and on. But I tried to change it. Like, what is Dana White thinking? Okay, I can edit that out. No one will know. He wasn't having it. And so we were. I mean, it was hysterical. We're cracking up. We get done with the interview, and we were high fiving, and he's hugging me like we've known each other. So it was literally fine.

A (50:59)

Got it.

B (51:02)

That was the first episode of the Sage Deal Show.

A (51:05)

No way.

B (51:06)

I had taped a couple other ones, but I wanted to do Dana first. It was the biggest name I'd gotten up to that point, and it still kept my foot in the door with some sports stuff. But he's an entrepreneur and all those things. And it's the Sage Deal Show. It was my first episode. I have full editorial control.

A (51:22)

You could have taken it out.

B (51:23)

I could have taken that out. Ah. If you can't laugh at yourself, I totally agree. For public consumption, you're in the wrong business.

A (51:32)

I totally agree with you. Yeah, I totally agree.

B (51:34)

So when Dana. He told me later. He called me later right before. He's like, you're airing this first, right? I was like, yeah, yeah. He goes, you're leaving that in. You know, you're effing leaving that in. And I was like, of course. Like, I'm not gonna. If I'm not gonna let someone else come on my show and edit stuff out, which. Unless it was something personal. No, we're all. Come on, then. Why would I do that for myself?

A (51:57)

I feel better because I did the same thing when we were doing it. He's like, we can cut that. No, man, leave it. It's funny. I don't want it to be that funny. But it was fun.

B (52:05)

Yes. That's the way to do things.

A (52:06)

Okay, good. I do. By the way, you're more of a

B (52:10)

pro at this than me. You've done a million more shows than I have. I'm just saying, like, leave it in. And when you show people that you're human.

A (52:16)

Human.

B (52:18)

I feel like people appreciate you more because they sometimes view us as, like, these robots, and we never make mistakes and everything's perfect.

A (52:24)

It's, like, incorrect.

B (52:26)

The opposite of perfect.

A (52:26)

Likewise. Likewise. That's why I asked it.

B (52:29)

I'm so glad. You see, I get to clarify again that it was the end of the interview.

A (52:32)

You're such a good sport. Because the fact of the matter is, mine was editing, too. All right, last thing. By the way, this has been so good.

B (52:38)

I've had so much. I did teach all day.

A (52:40)

I don't cry all that often. You got me. Like, I cry. Cried right there. Like, that was cry, cry. It's good now for you. So let's look at the other side for a second. You're now remarried, happy. Your career seems to be flourishing. I assume everything in your family is great. I know your dad's health, you said, wasn't great, but, like, take us to the other side. Like, is it somewhat sweeter from the standpoint that, you know, your whole life, marriage, finances, career, all goes away and now you've got it back. God's been so good to you, and you've worked your, you know what off as well. What's it feel like? Because the same people watch this. I want to get to the other side.

B (53:19)

What's that like, my lawsuit settled. I was in a mediation in a court in Los Angeles, California, on August 14, 2020. And when it settled, I put my head on the table and I just sobbed. I sobbed. I won. And I was so heartbroken that it took that. And I haven't thought about that moment often because it's hard to. Even though it was like a good moment, but it was like, gosh, did it have to come to this? And now what the hell am I going to do with my life? I worked up to the very end with the pending lawsuit for 16 months, every day. I was still on TV, so I couldn't afford mentally, I didn't have the energy.

A (54:07)

Wow.

B (54:08)

Or the ability mentally to focus on what's next because I was still on live TV every day until that day. And I didn't know where to go. I didn't know what to do. I thought about another show at some point to try it on my own, but never to do it to on my own. Like, I thought I'd work for someone and they'd help me with the show. And I just remember getting back on that plane and just to go back to the East Coast. I lived in Connecticut, where ESPN was, and, like, what's next? So, you know, it's amazing how God works. Two days later, I went on Megyn Kelly's show. We had the same attorney. If you ever get canceled. I have an attorney for you guys. Megan Kelly, me. He's Tucker Carlson's Chris Harrison, my dear friend who married us four months ago, who was canceled from the Bachelor, the host of the Bachelor and what he went through. Brian Friedman is your attorney. Trust me.

A (55:05)

Good to know.

B (55:06)

And he had had conversations. I went on Bill Maher's show about a month after I settled, and when I was on his show again, Diversity of thought, right. He brought me on and during the podcast, he's like, you know, you need to do a podcast under my network. I think you're great. And I was like, whatever. He sits there, drinks and gets high his entire podcast. He's not gonna remember that he's saying this. And we get off the air and he says it again and he meant it. So somehow I go from fear that day, sobbing on the table after I settled with Disney, to an offer from Bill Maher to be the first podcast of his new startup network, Club Random. And he brought me on. And here we go. We have a man who thinks completely differently than me that's giving me a platform to do my. To do this H. Steel show and he's gonna run it for me and everything else. Ended up leaving a lot of changes with him. And we're still friends. It's great. I really respect him. Left and went, okay, now what am I gonna do? I gotta. I'll just wait for the right person to come. And I had some potentials out there for some networks who were gonna bring on my show and do all the advertising and all the stuff that overwhelms me with this space. And it took longer than I wanted. And then they came and I realized, wait a minute, I've had to keep myself alive financially to do these shoots, to travel, to find a crew and lighting and editing on my own.

A (56:28)

Wow.

B (56:29)

Why am I now gonna give it away to somebody? Let me just try to build. Because if nothing else, I know that it's not gonna kill me. I'm gonna fall on my face again probably, you know, a thousand more times. But what I learned through this process, even when the world says you're done, you still get back up. So I kept it going and now, yeah, am on my own. And I just. I honestly, like, I could never. I never wanted this. I never wanted to do it on my own because I was afraid. Afraid of taking on this challenge of running your own business. And I suck at it. Like, I'm really bad. I'm like, I'm definitely the creative. And I was a producer before I was ever on air. Let me do that. And now I have a nice small team of people who are helping me. And when I say small, I mean my husband, who is A former CEO in corporate America. He knows how to run a business, thank goodness. And then two other people who are like my family, my teammates. So I'm learning and letting go with that. Still so much fear every single day. And on January 1, 2024, exactly two years ago, you know, I got all three of my kids off to college. I never thought I'd be 51, 52 years old alone. And I had met my first husband when I was 20 in college. So from 21st boyfriend, 20 to 47, that's all I ever knew. Clueless. Clueless in that whole world. So went on a couple dates. Awful. I'm like, I'm an idiot. This is terrible. And on January 1, 2024, I lived down in Fort Lauderdale, and I got in the water in the ocean, and I said, lord, please take control. And I said, from a personal perspective, I hope I'm not alone, but it's up to you. And I said, please don't bring me anybody until you bring me somebody and just make it really clear, because I'm an idiot. And that was January 1, 2024. When I say it was like the Sahara Desert from January 1 to November 12, 2024. Not a phone call, not a text, not anybody sliding into my DMs, nothing. Not a date, not a nothing. Bad grammar. Until that night at a charity event for veterans in Nashville, Tennessee, where I wasn't supposed to be. I'd just come off the campaign trail with Trump, and I was tired, and I canceled a speech. First time I've ever canceled anything. I was at my kid's college. I knew I could reschedule it. And I went with my girlfriend to this charity event for veterans, and this man walks up to me and says, hi, my name is Dave. You don't know me, but we have a lot in common. Mm. And I'm thinking, ugh, what line is he gonna throw at me? I've heard them all. His mother and my mother, 32 years ago in Leavenworth, Kansas, where our fathers were stationed in the military, volunteered at a convent for retired nuns, and stayed friends for 32 years, and we had never met. What? And when he walks up to me at this charity event on November 12, 2024, saying that not only did our mothers do something that involved God, nuns, nuns who were part of our families, like, came to holiday dinners, watched my brothers play basketball. Dave and my brother Chad played basketball against each other in high school. I was in college. I'm three years older. He was in high school. We had never met and 32 years later at a charity event, he walks up to me. He'd been married for 17 years, two kids. I'd been married for 20 years, three kids. That night I knew.

A (60:10)

You knew?

B (60:10)

Yeah.

A (60:11)

God is so good.

B (60:12)

We were engaged five months later to the day and married less than 10 months total. So September 5th, 2025, after meeting November of 24th. So I'm sorry, that's a long story. I needed you to know that because I knew you'd appreciate it.

A (60:27)

It's a great story. It's not too long.

B (60:29)

I gave up control of that aspect of my life too, and didn't know what I was doing anyway. I was so clueless. Like my 21 year old daughter, the one guy I dated between divorce and meeting Dave. We had just started dating and I was sending, returning a text and my daughter, who was 21 at the time, she looked at me and she's like, let me see that. She's like, are you gonna send that? She's like, you don't know how to do. You don't know what you're doing. I've dated more people than you. Delete, delete. I'm gonna rewrite this. And now wait two hours. And I'm like, is that what this world is?

A (61:04)

So that's.

B (61:05)

I'm so clueless. And so like, I literally had no idea. That's why I was like, lord Jesus, take the wheel, you know? And so I look at that, Ed, and you know what, what if. Yeah, what if I hadn't canceled that speech and rescheduled it that night? My kids understood. What if I had never stood up to Disney? What if I had kept my mouth shut about that shot they made me take? I wouldn't be here talking to you because I'd still be sitting like this robotic in a chair and making a lot of money and doing great, right? And being happy because I got to tell support stories. I would never have met Dave and my kids right now. What they are gaining from having me around more to be there to help them move into their dorm in college. Because I would have had to ask for vacation time before to be there for my parents dealing with their health journeys right now. To have met him, like, I have no words. And I hope and pray people, like, listen to your gut. Cause we usually know what the right thing is. And beautiful things come from the ashes. I'll never forget the head on the table crying after I settled with Disney. I'll never forget being in that bed with a terrible case of COVID After taking the shot that was gonna prevent it and people sending death threats. Like, all those things brought me to this beautiful new life. So take a chance on yourself. Believe you're gonna get back up and don't take so long to talk to God about it. Like, he's just waiting for us. I hate that it took me so long. But the good thing is that my kids saw, and now it's not taking them as long. It won't take them half a century. They're there, and I'm like, thank God for all the crap.

A (62:51)

Yeah. Thank you for doing this. You just reminded me why I do the show.

B (62:58)

Thanks for making me cry.

A (62:59)

Yeah, you made me cry. You know what? Today reminded me why I do the show. Sometimes you just. You know what I mean? You're doing. This was extraordinary. You're amazing.

B (63:10)

Thank you for having me on and allowing me to share. And to clarify, Dana White, Joe Rogan.

A (63:19)

I mean it.

B (63:20)

He calls me. He literally sends me a clip once a month, and he's like, look, this one has 20 million views. And he always says to me, he's like, I'm so proud of you. Because most people would have cut that out. It's the best business decision you could have made.

A (63:32)

You never know. Maybe Joe Rogan and Dana White lived in a cave together 300 years ago.

B (63:35)

300 years ago.

A (63:36)

It's possible. It is possible. If you manipulate time enough, they could live in that cave.

B (63:40)

That's good. You talk about full circle there.

A (63:42)

Yeah, that was pretty good. You're awesome. This was so good today. I just pray everybody stayed to the end and heard the entire bow. Put around the story where you want them to go. See you. Sage Steel's show. Is that where they should go?

B (63:54)

Sage steel's show on YouTube and wherever you get your podcast.

A (63:57)

Okay.

B (63:57)

Do you do Patreon?

A (63:59)

No. Do you?

B (64:00)

Well, I'm trying.

A (64:01)

It's where you generate the big bucks. Won't they tell me that's what I want?

B (64:05)

You already have the big bucks. No, Patreon. I have a very young Patreon channel. But Instagram, Like, I am super myself on Instagram, too, which can be. I'm very much an idiot. A lot, too. And Facebook. Yeah. I'm learning all of these different platforms still. I'm such a rookie in this, so I'll take all the advice I can get from you.

A (64:24)

I'm here to help you.

B (64:25)

Thank you.

A (64:25)

You're awesome. This was an unbelievable conversation. You're welcome for this one, everybody. This was darn good. Make sure you follow her. Make sure you share the episode. And I want to tell you, God bless you. Max out your life. This is the Ed Milan Show.