← THE ED MYLETT SHOW
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- [00:00]
A
So hey guys, listen. We're all trying to get more productive and the question is, how do you find a way to get an edge? I'm a big believer that if you're getting mentoring or you're in an environment that causes growth, a growth based environment, that you're much more likely to grow and you're going to grow faster. And that's why I love Growth Day. Growth Day is an app that my friend Brendan Burchard has created that I'm a big fan of. Write this down. Growthday.com forward/ed. So if you want to be more productive, by the way, he's asked me, I post videos in there every single Monday that gets your day off to the right start. He's got about 5,000, $10,000 worth of courses that are in there that come with the app. Also, some of the top influencers in the world are all posting content in there on a regular basis, like having the avengers of personal development and business in one app. And I'm honored that he asked me to be a part of it as well and contribute on a weekly basis. And I do. So go over there and get signed up. You're going to get a free tuition, free voucher to go to an event with Brendan and myself and a bunch of other influencers as well. So you get a free event out of it also. So go to growthday.com that's growthday.com Ed this episode brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Shifting a little money here, a little there, hoping it all works out well. With the name your price tool from Progressive, you can get a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill too. You tell Progressive what you want to pay for car insurance and they'll help find you options within your budget. Try it today@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Spring Fest and Ego Days are here at Lowe's right now. Get a free select EGO 56 volt battery with purchase of a select trimmer, blower or mower kit. Plus shop today for new and exclusive items you need for your lawn. So get ready for spring with the latest in innovation from Ego, the number one rated brand in cordless outdoor power only at Lowe's we help you save offer valid through 4 2. Selection varies by location while supplies last. This is the Ed Mylett show. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. I try to make it a practice not to have a lot of Attorneys on the show. It's just sort of a rule of thumb. I'm just kidding to all my attorney listeners. But in this case, this man's work is so good, and I mean this, I sought him out. I like when I see a relatively new face on the scene that is doing work that is not like everybody else's, that it's his own. And then I believe his work can dramatically impact your life from a productivity standpoint, a peace of mind standpoint, an influence standpoint. And he's got a book out right now called the Next Conversation. Argue less, Talk, talk More. And I consider him, and I don't say this often, to be a communication expert. And you will see that reveal itself throughout the next hour. You are going to learn so much and take so many notes today from Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson, welcome to the show finally, brother.
- [03:14]
B
And thank you so much for having me. I'm truly honored to, to be here. It's a, it's a pinch me moment. It's great to meet you.
- [03:20]
A
Yeah, likewise. I, I have to tell you, my two kids, my son's professional golfer, my daughter's a junior in college and I sort of had three things I wanted them to leave with when they were little. I wanted them to leave with their faith because in their sort of their morals and ethics and values. I wanted them to leave with a bunch of self confidence which I think under that if you get confidence, you'll work hard. But the third thing that surprises most people is I wanted them to leave me with world class ability to communicate. I believe it's a separator in our world today. And what you teach and the way you teach it is as good as I've ever seen it before, brother. And so I kind of want to get into this. The book's awesome, by the way. I read it in about a day and a half. It's awesome. Awesome. My note version of it, by the way. But I want, let's just start out kind of like with argument stuff. Okay. You're, you're an attorney by trade. First off, are you still practicing? That's a. And then inside that answer kind of one of the big rules of the book is never win an argument. But I'm like, isn't that sort of the job of an attorney? So help me navigate those two things at once.
- [04:25]
B
Yeah, well, one is I am still practicing. I am slowly learning how to transition out of that. I have a wonderful team. I'm able to delegate a lot of my cases. But right now I'm almost More of a. A leverage chip in settlements. It's kind of this weird thing where jurors know me and so judges and court staff know my content. And so being involved is also advantageous in certain ways, but slowly learning to develop and be in this space like we were talking about. So it's. It's getting there. Second of all, what do attorneys do? How you're supposed to win every argument? You're an attorney. Oh, you must win a lot of arguments. It's an absolute l. And I'll tell you why you make it to choose your client. Do I sign this person up? Do I not sign this person up? But you don't get to choose your facts. You don't get to choose the law, you don't get to choose the evidence. And so what you have to do is it's really more about giving the facts a voice. You're being an advocate for your client's story, for their position, for their perspective of how something happened. And so is the other side doing the same thing. I don't get to choose the facts, the evidence. Instead, what I have to do is advocate, and then it is up to the judge to apply that law to the evidence for the jury to determine. So to say we win arguments, that's just not true. A lot of the times the law is what does it for us. You just follow what the law says. You might be on the good side of it and the losing side of it, so to speak, but it's not a win loss thing.
- [05:52]
A
What about with another human being? Why would you write a book about communication and argue less, talk more? But then really, rule one is don't win. Is that more of a mindset thing? Is that what you mean when I approach a conversation with somebody, or is that you literally mean that don't try to win an argument?
- [06:09]
B
I literally mean that if you go into always just wanting to win the argument, you will lose something else that is far more valuable. Every time when I'm arguing in front of a judge and the other side's arguing again, there's case law, there's a statute, there's a law that is applying to this. And they just, I might have more precedent than the other person, and they can't compete against that. It doesn't mean that their argument wasn't any better. But you get into, especially in the courtroom, this feeling of, well, I have to win a lot of trials. Listen, if you haven't lost trials, you haven't tried enough trials. That's just the way it goes. If you want to spot somebody who's inexperienced, they haven't lost enough. But the mindset to it is much more impactful in every listener's world right now. That if you find that every book you read, every blog that you see is something that how to win every argument, it's is lying to you. Because what you're going to do when you have that mentality is you're going to lose the relationship, you're going to lose their respect, they're going to close themselves off from you, you're going to be less approachable, you're going to lose quality of your reputation if all you seek to do is win every argument.
- [07:20]
A
What if you're with someone who does try to do that? So let's start out his content. You guys, is so specific is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually real phraseology, real words where perhaps you are the secondary person is what I would call it. So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, friend, boss and personally supervise. But one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're always teaching you a lesson or they're in the control position. Is there a way to sort of wrestle's the wrong word, but re establish pecking order or at least equality in a commerce. You know what I mean when I say that? That you have people that in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything. You're not. They're in charge, you're not, they're picking the restaurant. You're not. Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I started with one of the hard questions first because I think more people find themselves invisible pecking order conversations almost than maybe they realize.
- [08:25]
B
Let's split the dynamic too. Let's say it's if it's one on one, much harder because this person has constructed their whole identity most likely to this facade. If it is, let's say you're in a meeting and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't have to push back, you just can't be pushed over. Let's say one on one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant. Biggest thing you're going to do is just not be pushed over, meaning you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not going to push back because they're looking for that, we call it water off a duck's back, where anything that somebody says, you can just say, okay, noted. I got it. No, if I have any questions, I'll ask. This ability to kind of be in the. In the pocket in your communication, the temptation is, we want to compete with them. Oh, you just went skydiving. Oh, that's great. I just went twice. Oh, you know, Ed, it's great. Yeah, you need to. And they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop, how many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance. Let's say. Let's just use the word alphas, or the people that are very confident in the communication, the conversation typically say much less. You've been in those meetings where the person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say, is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true conversation of what's happening. They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog is the person that's the most quiet. And when that person speaks, everybody's quiet, and everybody listens. So insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet.
- [10:12]
A
You say that about leaders, too. It struck me where you said, actually, great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non leader. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator of a leader? Correct?
- [10:26]
B
Correct. Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, oh, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it, oh, who do you think you're talking to? And they need to correct and drive traffic and go, go, go. The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insecure people feel like they have to prove they have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart. Confident people know that. Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the. The best leaders have a calm energy about them when they're on the floor of whatever is happening. Instead of this erratic, you know, what's going on? Okay, we need to do this. And. And they start shouting and getting mad and yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, okay, what do we need to do next? What's happening next? Instead of the blame, it's where we moving forward. So Driving the conversation in a way that sets authority. People are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees, supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization and same in everyday conversation. So you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor brother.
- [11:49]
A
So good. You, by the way, you exhibit that, by the way. From the minute we flipped the camera on even before we went live, there's a deliberate calmness to the way in which you listen. You actually listen calmly. It's one of the things I noticed about you instantaneously when the camera went on. Most of you don't know this because I'm an entrepreneur, but my major in college was actually broadcasting. And so it's amazing that God had this way 30 years later to create podcasts. And then I was able to take advantage of that background. But one of the things you have to learn in broadcasting when you write your copy is to write things with fewer words because you have to deliver segments in these little bites of time. And that taught me to communicate with fewer words, saying the same thing other people take more words to do. And I do believe that that's an effective use. If you watch communicators, they're fewer words they use. It's almost like someone watching on broadcasting. I want to make sure everybody gets the book too, because we're going into a lot of stuff. It's the next conversation. Argue less, talk more. What if you're with somebody who. I used it earlier, but I want to go a little bit deeper. They pick on you, they kind of gnaw at you a little bit. You know, everything is almost passive aggressive in the way they say things. And you find yourself almost being put down subtly when you communicate with this person. And I find this an awful lot lately with couples that are friends of mine, married couples, there's this subtle dynamic where they both are a little bit passive aggressive with one another in the way they communicate. And I. I feel empathy for the one that I think is the one receiving most of the aggression. Is there something you can do when you feel like someone's communicating with you that way? Is there a phraseology or a. Or a strategy for that?
- [13:37]
B
Let's separate into two different categories. So one, let's say is kind of this more just passive aggressive bucket. The other is let's ramp it up to somebody being a little bit more overtly disrespectful, rude. So in this first bucket, this passive aggressive, these are people that most likely just have grown up that Way, this is what they saw mirrored conversation and arguments throughout their life, and they don't know how to express that kind of thing. So when they slide in that negative comment that, you know, there's something to that, a simple question of like, should I read into that? Or is there more to that? Or. And this goes for Chris Foss, dear friend and I love his. His question is, sounds like you have a reason saying that I love that phrase. I. I also love. Sounds like there's more to that. So anytime you can just quickly ask, sounds like there's more to that. Or ask them, should I read into that? That tends to draw out the passive aggressiveness because they're not expecting you to kind of call them to the floor. On the flip side, if somebody's saying more aggressive things towards you, my recommendation is begin your question with, did you mean. Did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to hurt my feelings? Did you say that to offend me? When you say, did you mean, it is twofold. One is giving them the grace of. Perhaps they said it in a way they did not mean, and it's going to allow them to fix it. Like, at least with me and my wife, if we're texting and something seems like it's off, instead of it saying, you know, why are you being so short? What's wrong?
- [15:19]
A
Yeah, yeah, the question.
- [15:20]
B
Ask the question. Did you mean for that to sound short? Instantly? Almost every time. But my, you know, it is like the, oh, no, no, no, no, Sorry, I'm picking up the kids. Or I, you know, I was checking out the grocery store, getting gas. You know, you, you get that, that K or okay. And you're like, oh, okay, I guess, I guess they hate me right now. All right. Like, I guess they're in a mood, and then you naturally get in the mood, and then you respond defensively, which causes them to respond offensively. And now you're convinced, You've convinced yourself you're under attack. So it's this, this feedback loop that's not helpful to you. So when you begin with, did you mean. It's a great way to set somebody to, one, give them that grace of fixing it. But two, it's calling attention to what they were wanting to do. Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? It is. Or did you mean for that to sound rude? Like, that is a very quick way to address it out in the open. And if they're going to double down on it or not?
- [16:18]
A
Will you do that in river, by the way, this is so good. Will you do that in reverse if you feel that what you've said has been misinterpreted? In other words, if you feel like you're. I do this better in business than I do personal life. To be honest with you, in personal life, I think I just let everything out the window that I know that are tools, which is so stupid when it comes to business. I'm pretty good at this with friends and family. I devolve into the most emotionally immature person sometimes. But. So let's say we have gone back and forth and maybe I've said something the other way that they're hurt by. Will you slow a conversation down, for example, and say something like, what did you hear me say? How will you handle that? If the person is now coming back at you for something they believe you've said, that's passive aggressive or demeaning or rude?
- [17:03]
B
Awesome question. This happens all the time, especially in relationships. But I'd say even work too. When somebody tells you something, you've been in that situation where somebody is going, that's not what you said. You said this. And they kind of give a voice that doesn't even sound like your voice and gives a intonation and you're like, I didn't even say it like that. And all of a sudden now you're going, that's not what I said. I didn't say it like that. You're just pushing what you thought you conveyed. And nine times out of ten it is inaccurate because what is said is not always what's received. So instead of this, that's not what I said, you are going to ask the question, what did you hear? What did you hear? Because now it's not about what I am putting out. I am now getting curious of what you heard because that's what matters. Anytime you had that kind of confrontation or that miscommunication, instead of going, no, no, no, that's not what. That's not what I said. And kind of dismissing their whole experience or their perspective, by the way, it's very hard to judge. It's like making your own movie but not having an audience and going, no, no, that's not how the movie goes. It's like nobody else has seen it, only you're the one. It's that way. So when you ask the question, what did you hear? And they explain it, that's when you say, that was not my intent or I apologize for that impression, or I would recommend, is begin your sentence with I can see. Like, I can see how you'd feel that way. I can see how that come up, you know, whenever you say, you know, I, I can see why you'd feel that way. I can see why that would upset you. That I can see just says, hey, I took a second to walk over to where you're standing and I turn to look the same way that you're looking. And I can confirm, yeah, what you see is reasonable. What you see is justified. You know what? That makes sense. I can see that. That right there just goes boo. It naturally takes down the aggression. This, I have to win. You have to see it. What I see. Anytime you can do that and use words of perspective, like view, perspective. See, that is going to help somebody go, oh, I feel heard. Oh, I feel understood. And by that they're going to be more receptive to the progress.
- [19:15]
A
This is so good, you guys. Just so you know, when you're listening to this, the reason I wanted Jefferson on and the reason I think there should be more work in this topic is there's like only two or three people in the world that even discuss this stuff. And it, it may be in the top three most important things in life to be able to communicate your point and to be able to overcome adversity in a conversation and a difficulty and maintain or extend relationships. This is not stuff that's taught anywhere yet. It should be, what do you do? Gosh, I, I, I'm thinking of a situation I have with a friend who, and I, I don't remember this being in the book, so this will be a tough one. They go, they go silent on you. In other words, the conversation is going a particular way and I don't know, maybe it's me, I do start to win and maybe they can feel it, you know, like, and they just get quiet and I'm like, are you still there? Hello? Is there something you would say to re engage somebody who's given you the silent treatment or gone cold on you, or every time a conversation gets to a certain point, they just disengage completely? Or is your suggestion, don't let it get to that point by using some of these tactics and strategies. But is there a way when they disengage and go quiet that you can bring them back in?
- [20:32]
B
Yeah, where, here's where you go wrong is when somebody's giving you that silent treatment. There's this temptation that we started to say ugly things. Like in romantic relationships, you'll you'll start to kind of say hurtful things in hopes that they buy it back. Because all you're wanting is just to feel like you're not alone. So you're wanting that engagement. That happens sometimes in toxic relationships. Now, there are techniques that we can use to not get to that point, but let's say you're already there. Let's say you're already their, their. Their distance from you. There's nothing you're going to be able to say, nothing you can do physically. To just grab that person and say, come back to the conversation highlights the importance of not letting it get to that point. But what I would recommend is if somebody is giving that distance, you give them that distance. So maybe it's a day, maybe it's two days. Because what it's highlighting for you is that you're wanting the conversation just to hear yourself. You have not been in the conversation to hear the other person. And when they are taking the time, sometimes that is needed, sometimes there's wisdom in that, of taking the time to think and disengage and give it a break. And if you need to, then what I would say is, you message that person, you leave a voicemail for that person if they don't respond to your call and say, hey, I feel like we're miles away. It's important to use distances. I like using distances in conversation. So you feel a mile away from me right now, or I feel like we're 50 yards apart. Whenever you use distances, it's a great way of saying, hey, of saying you can feel that we're off. Instead of saying, hey, what's wrong with you? Or hey, you seem off, or you, what's going on? What's wrong? When you can use distances of I feel like you're far away from me right now, at least I do. That even in my life is a great way of not getting them defensive. But you call them, say, hey, I feel like we're far away. I'd really like to get closer. I want to find a way that we can talk again. Or hey, just letting you know I'm here wanting to talk to you. I hope to see you, hope to hear from you soon. Any way that you just say, I'm not trying to pressure this at all because you need to give them that space to continue to, to think about it. Or you can also say, hey, I think it was smart of you to give this conversation some space. You're right. I needed that. And we'll love to touch base with you. Soon. So you're giving them credit for their choice. So when you're saying, you know, almost like a good job, thank you for trying to get us back on track, they will take that and go, okay, yeah, that was my intentional choice to help us rather than you saying, hey, you know what? You're not talking to me. If you don't want to talk to me, that's fine. That kind of stuff is going to further pull them apart.
- [23:22]
A
So good. Jefferson. When I'm in a conversation that I feel like I'm. It's getting away from me, let's say that that could be a sales negotiation. It could be a conversation with a friend, you name it. I feel like in my case, most of the time it's speeding up faster than I want it to. You talk about this in rule one, number six is control the pace. And as I listen to you, I mean, you're very cognizant even of your pace in the way that you communicate, even on the show today, and even in your content, you do. You're actually a little faster when you do the content from your car than you are right now on the show. You're even a pace slower today than you are in your car. So I watch that, like, tonality and pacing. Let's talk about that in a conversation. Because with my. When emotions run high, oftentimes for me, I feel like the conversation is speeding up where my. My intellect is now not quite as sharp as my emotions are running, if that makes any sense. So what are strategies to control the pace and what does that even mean?
- [24:28]
B
Yeah, I love that you picked up on that. The anytime you are getting that fight or flight, and I know all of your listeners, highly educated, they know fight or flight. Whenever you're getting emotionally flooded like that, it is. That's why you're having trouble finding your thoughts and connecting things. And that's why the quicker you get, maybe you've felt it where you're either nervous. Same thing. When you're really mad, you might stammer and you might go like, no, no, that's not in your having trouble getting words out. It's because you're just flooded. Your emotions are there. Your logical and analytical side is not. And so what I teach every one of my clients before they go cross examination and I'm just offering them up to the wolves, is a constant reminder you control the pace, not them. That means no matter how fast somebody is peppering you with questions, the conversation cannot happen any faster than you respond. So whenever they ask you a question and you give a rapid fire answer back. Or worse, you start to step over their question because you already see where it's going. Bad things happen. You say things you don't mean. You say things that are not fully thought out.
- [25:39]
A
Out.
- [25:40]
B
That's why even in romantic relationships, all of a sudden you blurt something out and you go, oh, that's, oh man, that's not what I mean. And you, you already knew as soon as it came out your mouth, you put your foot in your mouth and you messed up. It's because you weren't controlling the pace. That means you need to slow down your words and that you need to leave space between what they said and how you're going and when you're going to respond. There's a difference. If you were to ask me if, if you said, hey Jefferson, how was your day? And I said, good, it was real good. I mean it was, it was, it was really good. Thanks. Versus hey Jefferson, how's your day? And I said it was good, it was a good day. Like you can just hear the difference in which one listened to the question, which one thought about the answer, which one makes the other person feel acknowledged or heard. Same thing with, that's why rule number one is say with control. If you go down and let's say you're, you're at work and all of a sudden, what's wrong? What happened? What's going on? And you, all you're sensing and telling other person is you're grasping for control versus you come in, take a breath and then you're saying, all right, what happened? Give it to me. Like people are looking, like we said, for those emotional anchors. So what I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say. That's how you set the pace of a conversation. So where your, your first word would be put a breath in its place. And what's that going to do is keep your analytical side engaged and to where you do not allow yourself emotionally to get emotionally flooded. And the second benefit is neither does the other person because now you are also injecting the time and forcing them to slow down.
- [27:27]
A
So, hey guys, I want to jump in here for a second and talk about change and growth. And you know, by the way, it's no secret how people get ahead in life or how they grow. And also taking a look at the future, if you want to change your future, you got to change the things you're doing. If you continue to do the same things, you're probably going to produce the same results. But if you get into a new environment where you're learning new things and you're around other people that are growth oriented, you're much more likely to do that yourself. And that's why I love growth Day. Write this down for a second. Growthday.com forward/ed my friend Brendan Richard has created the most incredible personal development and business app that I've ever seen in my life. Everything from goal setting software to personal accountability journaling horses thousands of dollars worth of courses in there as well. I create content in there on Mondays where I contribute as do a whole bunch of other influencers like the Avengers of influencers. And business minds. In there gets the Netflix for high achievers or people that want to be high achievers. So go check it out. My friend Brennan's made it very affordable, very easy to get involved. Go to growthday.com forward/ed. That's growthday.com forward slash ed. So hey guys, you know what separates most businesses from others? The people that hire the best talent. And we all know when you're working in a small business and you own one, it means you wear a bunch of different hats. But here's the truth. Sometimes you really need an extra pair of hands. And upwork is the place that you can find those hands. Upwork is how good companies find great, trusted freelance talent in a variety of different areas. Companies turn to upwork all the time to get things done. Finding more flexibility in the way they staff, key projects, initiatives where they want to go global with stuff. Top talent in it, web development, AI, design, admin, marketing, you name it. Posting a job on upwork is easy. Upwork makes the business process easier, simpler way more affordable with industry low fee. So post a job today and you can hire tomorrow on Upwork. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's up w o r k.com upwork.com I know a lot about this. Men have thinning hair and when your hair's thinning, you're paranoid about it all the time. You know the other thing inside secret. You notice all the other dudes with thinning hair and I gotta tell you something, there's a solution for it. Hair thinning is really common by the way. But there are solutions like Nutrafol and they're here to help you. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people see thicker, stronger and faster growing hair. Hair with less shedding in just like three to six months with neutral. Start your hair growth journey with neutral. Fall for a limited time. Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. When you go to nutrafol.com enter the promo code MYLET. Find out why 7, 500 healthcare professionals and stylists all recommend neutral for healthier hair. Nutrafol.com nutrafol.com spelled N U T R A F O L with promo code mylet that's nutrafol.com promo code mylet what about tonality? Specifically raising your voice for assertion more, lowering it almost to get them to lean in to pay attention. Is that any part of your belief system and influence or persuasion in a conversation?
- [30:50]
B
Yeah, the the idea is you want to lower your voice. I'm not talking really low. It's just you want to make sure it's always a downward inflection when you want to make statements that are foundational, statements that are concrete, statements that are this is is my value or my boundary. When you have an upward inflection, it makes it sound like you're always asking a question. Like if I was going to ask you, you say pass the salt. I wouldn't say can you pass the salt? As if, like I doubt your ability to do it or as if you don't know what salt is. It's the downward inflection. Can you pass the salt? So you want to make sure that you have a lower register instead of something that's really high. Same thing for like music. You take for example, if you are always listening to fast paced music, it encourages aggravation. It encourages anxiety to some extent. Trust me, I like all kinds of music. But my point is if you start to versus if you listen to something that's more easy listening, it will slow down your brain waves. It slows down your entire feeling of how you're reacting. So when you are able to use a voice that is lower in tone, it sounds a lot more in control. There's a difference. If I were to say, for example, already told you I'm not going to do that versus I already told you I'm not going to do that. Like one sounds like it's grasping for control and it's not in control. The other says I am fully in control of this moment.
- [32:30]
A
Bro, you made me just think of my dad. My dad was a yeller when I was a young man. So he used his voice the Worst possible way. Right? Aggravation, stress, anxiety. He could take a situation that was a 2 and make it a 22 in like a second. However, as my dad got older, one of the things I noticed about my father, when I had a major life problem, like a big, big one, you know, like one of those once every eight or nine years, I'm in big trouble type things. And I would call my dad.
- [33:07]
B
He.
- [33:08]
A
Would slow down the conversation, his voice would get deeper, and there was this. Just his pacing and tonality calmed me down multiple notches. So much so that to this day, my father's passed away. That I have imaginary conversations with my dad when I'm under stress where I am listening and mirroring that specific tonality of his, where he slowed it down and calmed it down and gave me a sense of peace about the conversation to the extent that it was so influential on me that I will have these conversations with him even though he's not here, because it calms me down. That's how powerful what you're. Yeah, it's how powerful what you're suggesting is that when your children come to you under stress or in trouble, I've, I've worked so hard in those specific moments of just listening to them and slowing it down a little bit. Getting a little deeper in my register. Go ahead. You were gonna say.
- [34:14]
B
No, I was gonna say you're right. You're. You're spot on. And I love that. I think that is so. I mean, he was your, that was the anchor in the conversation. I find that same way with the kids. Like we never. For the parents that are listening, you never, you always want to be the person that your kids run to for help. You know, when, when they make the mistakes and if you always yell at them and raise your voice, they're not going to come to you. But when you can be a safe space and say slowly, thank you for coming to me with this, you know, that's going to just encourage that dialogue. The slowing down is. There's a lot of wisdom in that.
- [34:53]
A
That there is, brother. Well, since we're talking about kids, let's stay on one little topic. What if you're interacting with someone who's behaving like a kid? Meaning you're just, you're interacting with somebody who's emotionally immature.
- [35:09]
B
Yeah.
- [35:09]
A
And now you got to have a grown up conversation with this person that you know is emotionally immature. And every time the conversation gets a little bit more stressed, their maturity level drops even further. What are some of your thoughts in dealing with Someone like, because we've all got those people around us, we, we may even love them. Their maturity level to have a productive conversation is not always matching what we would like it to be. What do we do with them?
- [35:34]
B
Right. Well, let's first set out that you have to choose whether or not you want to have that conversation with that person. If that's the person I had the conversation with. You know, because there's, there's all kinds of different types in my view. You need to be very clear about. I'm going to use the word boundaries, but not in a, in a woo woo kind of way. I'm using it in the terms of gatekeeping. Your peace of mind. Meaning you're going to use words that since establish signal boundaries like what you accept, what you allow. Those are the two big ones. So if I were going to say I don't accept the way you're talking to me right now, now versus you can't speak to me that way. Like there is one says, if I say you can't speak to me that way to somebody who's emotionally immature, all they're going to do is go, well, yes I can. Like they're not going to see behind the words. But if you, instead of beginning with you, you see how, if I say you can't speak to me that way, I'm just, it's like they have a remote control and they're pushing my buttons and I'm saying you can't press that button, but I gave them the remote instead. It's. You want to have this idea of giving them a manual saying, hey look, if you turn to page 76, paragraph 2, you'll see I don't respond to that tone like it's, that's the kind of power that you'll be able to have when you use words like accept or allow. It's saying I, I don't allow people to speak to me that way. I don't, I don't allow people to, to yell at me. I don't allow people to disrespect me. Like there is, there is a sense of control that you're going to feel and a sense of confidence you're going to gain when you stop giving remote controls and start giving out manuals for how they are going to be able to speak with you. That if we're going to engage in this conversation, this is what them's the breaks. These are the rules. This is, this is how we're going to, to go through that. Instead of going, oh, I got to deal with this person. No, you don't got to deal with them. They have to deal with you.
- [37:41]
A
It's so good. I want to ask you about that. So I do consider you such an expert of this. This is a hard one. What if you've already been with someone so you're in a dynamic with them where you have accepted this way of being communicated to. So it would be a little bit off putting at that time to say something like, like, I'm not going to accept you communicating with me this way. Is it just as simple as changing a couple words and saying, listen, I know I have accepted this in the past, but I am no longer going to accept having you. Or is there something else you would say? In other words, you've established a dynamic. It's been five years, three years, 10 years, and that's it, you're not going to do it anymore. So that's a little bit harder than the first time. Right, right. That's why I'm pushing it here because I know people listening are like, I would do that the first time, but I've been with this guy or I've been with this lady now for six years and I have allowed them to walk on me verbally this way for quite a while. That's the toughie. And I'm wondering what you would do in that case.
- [38:50]
B
So what I would do is I would make it very clear right then and there, I would begin with something like, I've made a choice and that choice starts today. Or I've made a decision and that decision starts today. It is a, this is my bright line of how I'm going to move forward. So even if it's as simple as I, you don't have to go, well, here's what I don't want people to do. What I don't want to go is, hey, I know how, you know we've been talking in the past and you know, I know you've been talking to me that way, but I'm not going to allow that anymore this time. Like, that is only the people that are intelligent, the people that are and know that they've been taking advantage. You will continue to poke down on you and they'll make fun of you for saying that kind of stuff. But that's what I don't want. That's more weaker position. Instead it is a, I've made a choice and that choice is going to be instated for the rest of this relationship or the rest of this conversation. So whenever you can say I've made a choice or I putting this into action. You're using action verbs that say I have made a decision and this decision is going to be how we move forward. Not a. Just a random. You know, you're not going to talk to me that way. But either way, even if you do, people are going to find ways that the people who enjoyed you not having boundaries are the ones that are going to be upset by them. So it's, it doesn't mean your boundary is wrong, it just means that it's working. So it's. You're gonna have people that are frustrated that you're changing the dynamic regardless, you.
- [40:30]
A
Let's take a one level pass. And then I want to ask you some stuff about in the book as well. All this is in the book, you guys. By the way, it's also in his content, which is basically, here's how you know content is good. When I started on social media, 99 of my videos were me in my car with a camera in my hand, not driving. Here's some content. And then it went viral. It's exactly how he's gone. And that means it's the content standing on its own, not the curation of it, you know, or the music behind it. Listen, all of us are busy and I keep hearing about tonal when it comes to fitness. I'm like, what is tonal? And then they ended up approaching the show. I have so many friends that are working with tonal because let's be honest, we have a million things to worry about every day. Getting in a good workout should not be one of them. Enter tonal. Tonal will pick the perfect weight, track your progress, and suggest what to do based on your muscle readiness. Taking the guesswork out of getting a great workout. Working hard is worth it if you're seeing results. So many people train and don't get any benefit. Don't grow, don't lose the weight. Don't get bigger and stronger. That's what tonal is built for. Tonal's at home strength training system uses adaptive weight to learn your movement and then set optimal weight for every move. It's really cool right now. Now Tonal is offering our listeners $200 off your Tonal purchase with promo code ED MYLET. That's Tonal.com and use promo code EDMILET for 200 off your purchase.
- [41:53]
B
Wow.
- [41:53]
A
That's Tonal.com promo code ED MYLETT for 200 off. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this.
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B
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A
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- [42:36]
A
Prices vary based on how you buy. Okay, let's escalate further. You're with a narcissist now. You're with a full blown narcissist now. These are in my opinion the most difficult people in the world to communicate with. That and someone who's just patently dishonest all the time in their communication with you, you. But you're dealing with a narcissist. What do we need to know about narcissist in the first place? Structurally, is there anything that you know? If this person is a narcissist, this is structurally who they are, what they do, and then any tactics or techniques in order to navigate conversations with them.
- [43:16]
B
Anytime you are having a conversation with a narcissist, you're playing a game. You, you are on the board and it's a game of either praise or provoke, meaning that if you are not showering them with praise Ed, they will turn around and start an argument with you to get you upset because they delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise. They always want that from you. It's that sense of control. Whichever feeling that they can grab from you and suck out of you, that's exactly what they're you're going to do. It's a game and it's a, it's a rigged game. The reason why I say it's rigged because it looks beatable. Like we've been in those conversations with narcissists and been on the other side of the table. And you go, if I can just only get them, if I can just say it this way, I'm going to get them to understand, I'm going to get them to apologize, I'm going to get them to see the light and go, oh my gosh, yeah, you're so right. I can see how you were upset by that. They're not going to, to do that. They don't, narcissists just, they don't do empathy. They might know it hurts. They can't care about it. And so the first idea and mindset you need to have is that you're just not Going to play the game. You do that by one using phrases that are very short and to the point that they can't do anything with. So if you were just to say, got it noted, I hear you. Something as simple as that, it just kind of puts a wet blanket on the conversation. They can't draw from it. The longer your answer, I told this all my clients, so it goes really for any communication. But the, the longer your answer, the more questions you're going to get every time, the more that you're going to have to say like you've sent that text message to somebody and it was like a paragraph and you're like, oh, this is the best, most poetic put together text I've ever sent. And as soon as you send it, all they do is just pick out like one half of a sentence right in the middle and you're like, they didn't even address anything that I said. Yeah, that was the point. So you, you, you, you, you said too many things. You need little bit 2. You need to find ways just to take yourself out of that conversation or what I also like to do, and this is, this is a go deep moment with me and you here is that when I am cross examining a narcissist, typically some type of expert witness, somebody who feels like they just have the ego of just out of control, that they're the only person who could ever have an opinion, is you use their thoughts about their reputation. So if I'm questioning a witness and he, and I know he's a narcissist, I might say, and you think the jury's going to like that? It might just be me and him in the room. I say, and you think the jury's going to like that? Well, well, because now he's thinking about the jury. Or if I were to say if, if you think others are going to be okay with that, now they're thinking outside of it because they really don't care about you, they care about the others. And so whenever you can get them to think about the reputation outside of the conversation, they change the dynamic so that they can make themselves feel good about it in that moment.
- [46:30]
A
That's very good. What about exiting a conversation? I'm, I'm not good at it.
- [46:37]
B
Not good at it.
- [46:38]
A
Well, socially, I, socially I'm regularly telling a friend or my wife, like, don't leave me alone too long because I don't know how. I don't, I don't, I, I have several skills communication wise, but one of them is not like we've sort of tapped out this conversation. We've maxed this one out. Let's. Let's exit gracefully. So whether that's on the phone or in person, the only thing I've ever stumbled into is starting to speak in the past tense. But I'd like to know your strategy on that, if you do that as well. But, like, what do you do? You know what I'm talking about. Everyone's been there. They' cocktail party, and you get bumped into this wonderful person. You're eight minutes in. You're like, I'm going to be here all night if I can't somehow rotate out of here.
- [47:21]
B
Yeah.
- [47:21]
A
How do you do it?
- [47:24]
B
Well, you can just do what we do in the South. I think we just slap our thigh and go, well, yeah, you're good. You know, better get. Better get moving. All right. No, it's a real easy trick that I like to teach is that you just loop it. So whatever you begin talking about at the beginning. So let's say it's family or work, whatever. It's typically something very surface level like that. You just loop it there at the end. So if you started talking about family, that means you're going to end with, well, I'm glad to hear the family's doing well. I'll, you know, I'll. I'll see you around. Or I look forward to catching up later. Have a good evening. Whatever it is, you just kind of close the loop of whatever you first started talking about. There are some people that also like a method of. Of acting like you're the one kind of inconveniencing their time when you're like, all right, I'll let you get back to it, you know, all right, well, I know you're busy. That cuts both ways. Sometimes if it sounds really disingenuous, if it's like, what do you mean? I don't have anything going on. It's just me and you in the corner here, you know, so you kind of have to feel that out.
- [48:34]
A
I feel like, but for the use the past tense. Like, I got to tell you, I've enjoyed this so much. It's been so good to see you. Do you do that? I mean, and be sincere about it. But it allows by past tense phraseology, at least for me, if they are actually listening, which maybe they're not, they go, oh, we're at the end of this conversation, not in the middle of it anymore.
- [48:55]
B
Yeah. Whenever you can say it was or it's been. Anytime you can use past phrases that Is it's just saying, hey, this is our signal that the conversation has now ended. We are now talking about it as it's now happened in the past. I'll see you when I see you. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. That's, that's a great way to do it.
- [49:16]
A
Okay. Few more things I want to ask you. Can you free frame a conversation after it's over so it's done. You and I have been texting or we had lunch, let's say or sales call that didn't close or whatever. Do you believe that? Post conversation you can reframe its meaning to some extent meaning with a follow up text or a follow up phone call. Are you a believer? I do a lot of that frankly. So like throughout my day when I have interactions with people I really love in the evening, circling back with that person and you know, I enjoyed our and being sincere, whatever it was. I enjoyed our time so much. Getting to know about your high school basketball career, you know, the new business you're starting and I like to frame or stamp a conversation and its meaning afterwards. Post framing a conversation. What do you believe about that?
- [50:05]
B
I think it's critical. I, I think what it does, I, I it, you put the perfect word on it, stamp on it. It's a great way of, I've always said put a bow on it to be able to just kind of package that conversation and, and now say let's set it off to the side now it's almost a memory now. It's, it's more than just the transaction. It is now an event that has happened that you and I can both look back on rather than just an exchange of hands and a handshake and back and forth. If you're able to, you thank them, show words of gratitude, then you're able to wrap up kind of maybe one sentence, half of a sentence of what you were able to achieve in that conversation. And three, you want to add on just a little bit of something unique, maybe something that they didn't think you listened to, something about maybe their family or something about their favorite sports team or the name of their dog. You know, something like that that allows them to, it just feels you're sending the message of hey, I actually listen to the person and see you for a person, not just ask for what you can give me. That's going to solidify and put a bow on it and put your stamp on it that's going to say this is something that, that, that will last.
- [51:19]
A
This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, traditional in person therapy can cost anywhere from 100 to 250 a session. But with better help, online therapy, you can save an average of about 50% per session. And seriously you guys, it could be the best investment you ever make. People ask me all the time what all your guests have in common, from the athletes to, to the entertainers, the scientists, the peak performers, you know what most of them have been to therapy. And what I love about BetterHelp is it can be done online. And so if you don't vibe with your therapist, you can switch at any given time until you find somebody you connect with. And therapy can help you with everything from trauma from childhood you really need to work through or a relationship breaking up. You've been in real stress all the way to just something as simple as you want to talk out loud and get some clarity in your life about a couple challenges you've got or you need a sense of direction. Right now your well being is really worth it. So visit betterhelp.comedshow to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.comedshow what's the other application of your work other than what we're discussing now? So I want people to have reasons to get the book as well. So one is these interpersonal communications. These one on ones. Anything public speaking wise. Like is this your pace and tonality from stage or do you pick up the pace, for example, when you first walk out? Any other applications of your work? I'm just thinking of stage speaking as another, another forum for it.
- [52:44]
B
Yeah, definitely. Public speaking is, is useful because I all of my lessons that I teach can also be applied to storytelling. But my pace, you've already picked up that what I do in my social media videos have to be very fast because that's the way social media is. If you're going to keep it less than a minute, you have to find ways to take 30 pages and turn it into two sentences. So you have to go a lot faster on stage. I'm this speed but I'm going to change and be more dynamic. And by dynamic I mean my high is going to be higher, my lows are going to be lower. So you think of a symbol like you can barely tap on a symbol here a little bit. You can hit it too and have a big crash. So you have to find ways to get in the pocket in your communication. And I love music, I play music. So that's why I like that term. You have to find the pocket. So anytime A band's playing together. There's a part where you kind of start bobbing your head. You're like, oh, this feels good. Like something is hitting there. Everybody's on beat, everybody's in sync. They are not going too fast. They're not rushing it. They're also not dragging. They are in the pocket of the song. And so when you find that you can be in the pocket in your communication, whether it's in public speaking, interpersonal relationships, whether it's what I see a lot of these managerial roles. So this is a lot of consumers in my content are people that have people above them, like supervisors, and also have people below them and also have this other opportunity to communicate. So let's say like teachers, you have. They have faculty, they have students, and they have parents or nurses, they have administration, they have patients, and they have other nurses, you know, other people and doctors. They have to all communicate. So it's these principles that I teach in the book, applied to just about everything that you have, that is giving you the power of what to say next. And so when you can find that you're getting in the pocket of your communication, that means you're having the confidence of saying exactly what you need to say at the pace and tone of exactly how you need to say it. And you feel good. Good. And you feel at peace at where you're at.
- [54:59]
A
You don't have one thing I've noticed about you. You're not one word reliant. So I want to ask you about that. Just a couple more hacks, you guys, before we wrap up, but I. A lot of people will overused. You just did a piece of content I loved on people who say like, like, like, like, like. It's like, it's like, it's like, it's like. In my case, I have this reliance on literally. I overuse the word literally. Right. I've just noticed it listening to my stage speaking, listening to podcasts, I literally use literally too much. So let's just take somebody even who uses the word like. I mean, and by the way, and everyone listening right now, you probably have a phrase or word that you use way more than you realize. Right? They do. And so I'm wondering about any strategy or tactic we could even stay on, like, if you choose. But should people be aware they do that to some extent as well. And I want to say literally, so I'll just let you answer.
- [55:57]
B
Well, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, they're all adverbs. They're all adverbs. Words in an ly or they. They try and do things in sentences that add a lot of fluff. So like is one of them. So just literally essentially have a best friend who always start a sentence with. So basically, like, you don't. Those are both adverbs. It's very easy to do because we use that in social casual conversation. If you want to eliminate using the word like all the time, swap it for the word because it forces you to move the conversation forward. So instead of saying something to the effect of I didn't like when you said that that like it. It really made me feel less. Versus I didn't like when you said that because it made me feel less. It's adding the cause and effect in there. Like it's just a fluff filler word. Literally is, as you know, also a big ad word. And what they do is they just water down your sentences. They don't mean anything. I, My, my one that I have is judge just. Which is not great either. So you can tell the difference of somebody going, hey, just want to check in versus I wanted to check in. You remove the word just. It doesn't sound nearly as hesitant. The biggest thing with adverbs is you find a way not to. To use them like, literally. There's not a. There's not a flip or a word. I would say you need to replace it with this. It's just not using the word. That's a lot easier. Easier said than done. I'm trying to catch yourself. And there's nothing wrong with them. In casual conversation. It's when you're wanting to. To be assertive, when you're having to have a really important conversation that literally kind of just clogs up the sentence because they don't know what to do with it. They hear it. Like, there's a difference between. If I were to say so, like, I mean, literally, if. I mean, maybe you don't think this way, but. So I was just thinking like, but essentially. And you're like, what are they saying? Versus just scrapping all of that and getting right to the. Getting right to the point.
- [58:03]
A
What if you were all just a little bit better at all of this? I just want you to think about it. Just if you had a tool chest full of the. These things that you're just a little bit better at all of these things, you're a little bit more persuasive. Your content on social media is a little bit better. You're a little bit better in front of a crowd. Your interpersonal relationships flow just a Little bit better. Think about the implications of this in your life. And is there much. Are there many things you could do that could increase the quality of your productivity and your happiness more than what we're describing right now or instantly? Because I don't believe that there is. Is literally. No pun intended. So last question regarding silence. So I've watched you today and you listen quietly. You don't do a lot of what I call emotional nudges. Uhhuh. Yes. Right. You don't speed me up. You listen to the end of a sentence. I just want to give you a whole package on the topic of silence. My opinion is that the best communicators I know know utilize silence better than other people. Meaning the following. I'm going to throw the whole package at you. My best standup friends, when they watched me speak, the advice they would give me, the ones that have been on the show is Ed little bit more silence. Make the point and be quiet. Let the audience clap. Let them have the emotion before you move on to the next one. Don't talk over the punchline is one of the rules in comedy. Listening quietly, processing information after somebody speaks. All of this whole package of just silence and its actual unbelievable ability to be communicative to people is the part that I wanted to finish with and maybe in my mind the most important part of communication. Just stage interpersonal persuasion, presenting all of it. Listening, silence. What does that mean to you when I say it?
- [59:54]
B
Silence is without a doubt the most powerful tool anybody can have in their communication. Because it may be the absence of words, it's not the absence of communication. Silence is always communicating something. And even some of the best. I would say your best attorneys, your best lawyers are ones that don't try and step over the witnesses answer. They are listening intently. That's when I know I have somebody on the other side I need to worry about. Because they're not writing down notes, they're not looking for their next question. They're just looking and listening. And when that's happening, I'm going, oh, okay, now, now I'm in some. With somebody who's. Who can play. So it is anytime you're listening to somebody, if you begin to kind of really engage, I, I know that goes different for different types of people in their personality. But when you can just sit and listen, it's saying, I am 100 devoted to this moment. I'm not wishing I was somewhere else. I'm not trying to speed this up so I can get out. I'm not trying to focus on me and what I'm going to say next and my. My story that I'm going to share, that's going to be hopefully better than yours. It is just an appreciation for letting you shine, letting the spotlight be on you, and me having this sense of wonder to say, what can I learn from this moment? And when you begin to have every one of your conversations with this mindset of having something to learn learn and not something to prove, better things are going to happen in your life when you start to slow down and realize where you're going.
- [61:33]
A
I love where we went today, brother. You know, I really wanted to have him on for a while, you guys, and I wanted to do it in person, which, you know, I don't do a lot of them like that lately just because of my health, and this exceeded my expectations, especially because we had to do it through zoom. I really love your work, and I think the application of it, Jefferson, from young children all the way to somebody who's been married 35 years, wanting to make their marriage better, and everybody in between can benefit from your work. And so I really want to thank you for being here today. And you're one of the people I have on that. Halfway through the interview, I know I want to have him on again. So at some point, promise me we'll do this thing again, but we'll do it in person.
- [62:13]
B
In person. Absolutely. Man, I, I can't wait. It's been an honor, brother. Yeah, I, I, I can't say enough good about it, about you and what you, what you stand for. So thank you for your legacy that you're leaving.
- [62:25]
A
Likewise, brother. Hey, guys, you got to get the next conversation. Argue less, talk more. You just got a little sliver of it today. The book is loaded. It's, it's. There's no wasted pages. It's like the stuff I write, you guys. It's not full of fluff. It's a strategy and a concept and then specific tactics. You're gonna love it. All right, everybody, share today's episode. God bless you, Max Out. This is the Ed Milan show.