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The Elusive Dream Podcast
The Religion of Whiteness
00:36:43
In episode 6, Dr. Korie and Pastor Rich engage updated research from guest, Dr. Michael Emerson, author of the culture-shifting book Divided By Faith. Current data suggests that the racial divide has gotten worse, not better, in the last 20 years. What sh
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- [00:13]
A
Hello. Hello. I am Pastor Richard Wesley Johnson.
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B
And I'm Dr. Corey Little Edwards. And this is the Elusive Dream Podcast.
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A
Yes, it is episode six. Dr. Corey, we did it.
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B
Yes, we doing it.
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A
Doing it. We doing the thing. Oh, my goodness. Today's title for this episode. Are you ready?
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B
I'm ready.
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A
The religion of whiteness.
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B
Going in today.
- [00:40]
A
Yes, we are going in today. And, Dr. Corey, you have another special guest that you have interviewed for this podcast. But before we introduce him to our listening audience, let's recap a little bit of episode five, where our guest was Reverend Curtis DeYoung. And he discussed that language matters.
- [01:01]
B
That's right. That's right. I mean, he hit. He hit upon a variety of different concepts from reconciliation and the biblical definition of reconciliation, which was really important. And then he also talked about reparations.
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A
Yes.
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B
And that was important as well. Right. Because we need to begin to evolve in our language as we have a better understanding of the processes that are going on, but also as certain types of language begins to lose its power.
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A
That's right. And if it. If it loses its power, it really asks the question of us. How will we develop new language? How will we use language to build our. Our Christian imagination?
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B
That's right.
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A
For being united together as one body in Christ.
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B
Amen.
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A
Amen. Amen. Amen. So today, Dr. Corey.
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B
Yes.
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A
Introduce us to your guest that you interviewed.
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B
Yes. Yes. So you all, I'm so delighted to have with us today Dr. Michael O. Emerson. Dr. M. Emerson done considerable amount of research in the area of race, religion, and urban sociology. He is a professor and department head, actually, of the Department of Sociology at the University of Illinois, Chicago, which happens to be my alma mater.
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A
All right.
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B
Yes. Where I received my PhD. So shout out to UIC Department of Sociology. Michael Emerson has written many, many books, 15 books and facts, in fact. He has published over 100 articles. He's done many different projects, and in fact, he is heading right now with other colleagues, the largest study of race and religion ever conducted in the United States. And so we are going to have the opportunity to hear some of the findings from that study today. In particular, Dr. Emerson is going to talk about what kinds of changes have we seen as it relates to racial attitudes over the past 20 years. He was. Was the author or co author of the book Divided by Faith, and he did that work 20 years ago. It came out in 2000. And so now he's going to be reflecting on that. And how do white Christians in particular feel about particular racial topics? What do they think about particular racial topics, and we're going to engage that and hear what he has to say about that.
- [03:26]
C
So the study that reason it was motivated to do it now was 20 years ago, it published a book called Divided by Faith that argued that whites and blacks in the United States, of course, are quite divided, but they're more divided among Christians. And so the book was an attempt to try to understand why that is. This study that we did now, 20 years later, is, well, have things changed? Have they gotten better? Have they gotten worse? Have they stayed the same? What we found is overwhelmingly they either have stayed the same or the divisions have gotten larger, which, of course, is not what we had hoped, which is disappointing. But as we know, we've been in an era of extreme division, and we're seeing that reflected in our data. We're in a, I think, kind of a battle for what, what does it mean to be a Christian? And also what does it mean to be an American? And I think that we see that battle heading up within Christianity. We can talk about why. But, yeah, I think we're at a. I call it the Day of Reckoning, a point of reckoning in our country. And that's why I think we're seeing such. It's not just that it's division, it's the intensity of the division. And I'll say that's one thing that we were able to measure this time around is not just like, how do you think about these issues or how do you view them? But we ask people about how they feel about them. And I'll give you an example. We asked respondents just this was in our national survey part, but we also did it in our focus groups. If I say the word white privilege, what do you feel? If I say the word black power, what do you feel? And what was interesting here is, of course, what people feel differs dramatically by their racial group, but also by their Christian. But I mean, when we would say those words, seemingly good, upstanding white Christians would literally swear at us. They just thought they would say, you know what I feel? I feel that bulb leap or something like that. The anger quickly, quickly showed itself. And that was the number one feeling that people said they felt. I feel anger when you say the word black power. I feel anger at the word white privilege, because it doesn't. And this is from a white perspective. It doesn't exist. It's ridiculous to say all groups have their privilege and so on and so forth. So the intensity really struck me this time.
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A
Well, Dr. Corey, first of all, I am Grateful for this work of Dr. Emerson, a colleague of yours.
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B
Oh, me too. Me too. He has been doing the work for decades now.
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A
Yes.
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B
Really the first one out there taking a critical look at race and religion, particularly as a. Particularly in the area of Christianity and how that impacts the church. And so. And he's continuing to do that and leading the way in. In many ways. So I'm really grateful for the contribution he makes in building knowledge for the kingdom of God. And he's doing it again with this scholarship. And let me tell you, this must this much. Pastor Rich, I was like, I mean, come on now, what were you thinking when he said, when he was talking about that?
- [07:06]
A
Well, the first thing that struck me is when he talked about the intensity of the feeling. It wasn't just the feeling, but the intensity that came across from white Christians to words such as white privilege and black power or black empowerment.
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B
And they were about to. They were cussing.
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A
They were cussing. They were. They were vehemently opposed to what he was bringing to light.
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B
That's right. And it was just asking. It was just asking people, what are your thoughts? What do you, how do you feel?
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A
Right, right.
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B
These are just research questions. You know, they bleepity bleep. That's what I feel.
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A
Yes. And it, it just is so evident about how far apart we are as Christians, black Christians and white Christians. And, and the division has not gotten smaller.
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B
No.
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A
If anything, has stayed the same, but in reality, it's gotten worse.
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B
It's gotten worse.
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A
Oh, my goodness.
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B
Gotten worse. And I really like that he's. How he's sort of framing this. Right. When he talks about. We are really in a battle here. That's what the, that's what the research is suggesting, that we are in a battle here for what it means to be a Christian. Right. That when we see that these divisions are. Are growing, not narrowing, that's a flag. Right. For us as the body of Christ. But not only what it means to be a Christian, what it means to be American.
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A
That's right.
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B
Right. And so people are responding, and Christians in particular, not all this. What's interesting here, I want to highlight is that he's saying that it's of. Among white people, it is white Christians who are responding the most intensely to language like white privilege and black power and, and adding some expletives along the way.
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A
You know, they are the most offended. They are the most offended and the most defensive.
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B
The most. And they're angry.
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A
And that's the number one.
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B
The number one emotion is anger when it comes to this. And so what that suggests to me, Pastor Rich, is that when we think about white supremacy and the history of white supremacy, we've talked about this in earlier episodes, how it's been so intertwined with white Christianity that these emotional responses to this language, that is language that challenges white supremacy, that is black power, white privilege, it's implying that there is really that interconnection of white supremacy and white Christianity because people who are not Christian, who are white, don't have such an intense response to that language. And so this is some really important work that he's bringing to bear.
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A
And the research is so important for us in the church, and particularly clergy, to be paying attention to because this frames the way we speak about what it is to be Christian.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
And what challenges of the status quo to being an authentic Christian today.
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B
That's right. That's right.
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A
So why has it seemingly gotten worse in your perspective?
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B
You know, when I hear this, there are a couple things that come to mind. I mean, one, you have the election and the reelection of our first black president who had a black family. And then we've also seen increase in people of color, the proportion of people of color in the United States. And so that brings to mind for me this idea of perceived threat. And perceived threat is, argue, argues that when a group in power perceives that their power is being threatened, then you're going to see this increase in resistance and outward prejudice and race and racism and discrimination. And so I'm wondering if that might be what's going on here that could perhaps be some. Provide some explanation for it at least.
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A
Yeah. To help us understand why the resistance is so strong.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And doubling down on that resistance over the last couple of decades.
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B
That's right.
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A
So one of the things that Dr. Emerson mentioned was the response from white Christians that white privilege doesn't exist, or hey, everybody's got privilege. Can you respond to this privilege thing for. For our listeners?
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B
That is such an interesting respect response. It's ahistorical and it doesn't take into account broader structures. It acts as if there isn't this thing called race. And it doesn't take into account the inequality that we see along racial lines not only today, but that we've seen across history. And so to say that it's that everybody has privilege is such a limited understanding of structure and how race works. And it's not about an individual level privilege, it's about a privilege that people gain because of a particular status they have. In this case we're talking about being white.
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A
That's right. So let's continue to listen to Dr. Emerson.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
And expound on not just the response from white Christians, but he also asked black Christians what their response was as well. To these terms.
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B
Yes.
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C
So if you look at the. Just those same two examples, African Americans, the number one feeling of white privilege is sadness. The number one feeling of. From the word black power, the term was hope. I feel empowered. Yeah. Words like that. So again, these differences were so dramatic. And when we break it down and look at Christian versus not, it was the Christians that had the biggest gap, even in their feeling, not just in their attitude or opinion on the issue. So it's not just black and white. We also looked at, like, immigrants, that word, and so on. So kind of saw this pattern throughout. I'm trying to remember. I think it was undocumented. Undocumented or illegal immigrants. So that brought up a lot of feelings of resentment. So on.
- [13:50]
B
Well, this is why it's so important, Pastor Rich, to pay attention to how people are responding to the same types of questions and same types of words and. And so on. And it actually hearkens back to our discussion about language and that what we're seeing is that blacks have very different feelings that emerge when they hear things like white privilege or black power. Right. Where white Christians are getting a sense of anger. It's hopeless. Right. For black. For black Christians. And why privilege brings up a sense of sadness. And so again, that for me, highlights such the importance of recognizing why we need to come up with the right words and make sure that we're on the same page when we're talking about variety of different concepts and so on.
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A
Yeah, I kind of am interpreting black Christians and white Christians feeling differently because we're interpreting our history differently.
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B
That's right. That's right.
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A
The. The way we were taught to believe the stories that we were told of our country's, quote, unquote, founding fathers. But not just the interpretation of history. It's the experience of that history, too.
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B
This is the truth.
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A
This is not just stories we read on the page. These are things that we've lived out and they are continuously played out. In fact, they're played out so well we can predict if things don't change, how they will continue to stay the same.
- [15:18]
B
That's right. That's right. So, you know, we have to recognize, again, why it's so important to pay attention to history, to pay attention to different groups, not only their perspectives, but actual experiences. And again, Dr. Emerson's research, along with his colleagues, is bringing that to bear. Why it's so important to pay attention to that.
- [15:41]
A
That is so important. And may we have ears to hear, as the Bible says. Jesus often said in the gospels, let him, her who has ears to hear, hear. So in this next segment, Dr. Emerson is going to kind of delve into how we've gotten to this point.
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C
Yeah.
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A
You particularly asked him the question, is this new.
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B
That's right.
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A
That's right. I think we already know the answer to that. But it's still good to hear a response nonetheless.
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B
Yes. Y.
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C
You know, the expression it changes with the context, but it always has that same purpose. Right. Basically maintains the racial hierarchy, keeps inequality going, so on and so forth. So different techniques over time. So I actually am working on a book called the Grand Betrayal. And so I'm going to share some of what's in that book, even though the book won't come out for a while yet. So the only way to make sense of this. And of course I can't do full justice to the argument. So it might strike people as odd, but the Grand Betrayal starts by showing Christian leaders in color in particular, but also congregants us just asking, like we're supposed to be brothers and sisters. The thing that Christian is supposed to be our ultimate identity apart from anything else. We are truly a family. And yet we keep getting rejected, spit on, thrown under the bus. Why? What is going on? And showing some of the impacts which we call betrayal trauma, that it literally has psychological and physical impacts on people. So we then ask why, just as they're asking, and our answer is this. White Christianity in the United States is not Christianity. And it shouldn't be called that. It should be called the religion of whiteness. That the number one thing that this religion does always is protective lift up and worship whiteness. The group itself, the power that it bestows. And Corey, you would know this. I mean, we draw on Durkheimian theory of religion is how we get to this, that it has. We identify actual totems that are worshiped always a white Jesus, a Jesus who's not white is very offensive, very offensive to white Christians. It's seen as often just absolutely ridiculous. Why would that be? Okay, that is the totem to be worshipped, also the emerging of the cross and the flag so that they become almost the same thing. In the book we specify, I believe it's the seven beliefs of the religion of whiteness. We go into the practices and then the social organizations very much that you have to have in the social organization, you have to have white spaces. Whether that's all white churches or whether that's. As you've done so much work in racially diverse churches that maintain white power, those work just as well. So if you look at it that way, and this is what the book is trying to. We're not just trying to make the argument, we're actually trying to test it and show evidence that it actually is what is going on. If you have the religion of whiteness, then it explains how and why for the entire history of the US Whites keep throwing who are supposed to be their brothers and sisters under the bus. They're not the brothers and sisters. They have different religions.
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B
Pastor Rich, Dr. Emerson, man, he went in and he just dropped the mic on us right there.
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A
He really did.
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B
He dropped the mic. He said white Christianity is not Christianity and it should be called a religion of whiteness.
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A
Yeah. We're not just talking about being divided by faith.
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B
No, no.
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A
What are we talking about?
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B
This is different faith.
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A
This different faith altogether, man.
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B
That is for real. That is for real.
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C
It is.
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B
I mean, we can chew on that for a hot minute, I would suggest. What are your thoughts about that?
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A
Well, that this religion of whiteness lifts up and protects its identity.
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B
That's right.
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A
And it actually has all of these. What did he call them, Draconian symbols or.
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B
Durkheimian.
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A
Durkheimian, yeah.
- [20:39]
B
That's Emile Durkheim. So you know that. That whiteness has all of the indicators of a religion because all of this emotion is behind it. Right. They are going to lift up and protect whiteness almost at any cost. It seems they have variety of different symbols that represent whiteness. In this case, he talked about the cross and the flag merging.
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A
Right, right.
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B
It's not the crucified Savior, it's the cross and the flag and then the white Jesus. So not only is there a strong emotional response to black power or white privilege, there's a very strong emotional response, an offense to any Jesus that's not white.
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A
Right.
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B
It's very offensive. He said. And so there's this. Again, this, this merging of white supremacy to white Christianity, or maybe better yet, saying that there's this use of Christianity to reinforce and to establish a white. A white supremacist society that's good. And to hold up whiteness as the thing that ought to be worshiped.
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A
So you just, you just said you gotta say that again. Religion is used as a tool.
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B
Yes.
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A
Of white supremacy.
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B
That's right.
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A
To maintain.
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B
To maintain white supremacy. To lift up whiteness to protect whiteness. And it seems like at any cost. And when you talk about that emotion, when he talks about that strong emotion, that's really revealing how critically important this is to people. Not just any white people, but white Christians in particular. And that's what's so insightful about his scholarship. This isn't just all white people that. It's white Christians in particular that have a very strong response to any symbols or language that. That suggests that white supremacy or those things we think of as white supremacy and whiteness in particular is not being lifted up. That is something for people to really take to heart. Particularly, I would suggest, Pastor Rich. Pastors who head congregations with white people in them, they might want to pay closer attention to this and how they're talking about Christ and who Christ is and what is the gospel.
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A
Because if we don't do that, then the true gospel will not be revealed.
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B
Absolutely not.
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A
It'll be this. Well, not even the gospel.
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B
No, it's torpedoing the gospel. It's not the good news. It's not the good news of Christ.
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A
And it's not good news for anyone. It's not good news for people of color, but it's also not good news to white folks.
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B
No, it's not. Because it's literally not the good news, as Dr. Emerson is suggesting. It is some kind of other religion, in particular the religion of whiteness.
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A
Yes, Yes. I think. Wow. When he said that we're actually not brothers and sisters in Christ. Yeah, that just. Man, that hits me hard because we aren't practicing the same religion. We're not embodying the same faith or practices or values. I mean, he said there are seven practices and virtues and symbols that can describe this organization of a religion of whiteness. And that just really disturbs me because when I look out to my white brothers and sisters in Christ, I'm looking towards them as they are family. As they are brothers and sisters.
- [24:30]
B
Yeah, yeah. And yet there are many people who are claiming to be Christians. He's arguing that actually aren't upholding the gospel and in fact, are holding up other symbols as more sacred than the gospel. And in fact, we've talked about often Pastor Rich in this podcast about us being made in the image of God and that as people who. As people of color. What this is research is suggesting is that why people don't see us in the image of God if they have such an offensive response to an image of Jesus that is not white. And so, you know, I have to be honest, this is quite. This is disappointing and it's sad to hear. Right. As somebody who is a believer in the most high God and desires for the body of Christ to come to oneness, to hear that it's white Christians in particular that have such a strong reaction to black power. A Jesus that's not white. And even mentioning white privilege and merging the cross and the American flag, I mean, that's, that's so disappointing and sad to hear. And it's something that I lament.
- [25:51]
A
Yeah. And it's. It's sad that white Christians don't see it, but non Christians. Non Christians who are white are able to point it out.
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B
Yes.
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A
Better.
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B
Better.
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A
More clearly.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Than those who identify as Christian.
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B
That's right. That's right. And again, that's. From my perspective, that's revealing. Well, not just mine, that's just showing an historical or suggesting that a historical link between white supremacy and white Christian. And in fact, it is white Christianity that has been not only complicit in white supremacy, but is actually producing and reproducing white supremacy in this country.
- [26:34]
A
Yeah. Jesus continues to challenge the status quo throughout the Gospels by saying, who's in. Who is My family.
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B
That's right.
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A
My family is those who do the will of my Father in heaven, he says in Matthew 12:15, you know, or when we talk about him separating the sheep from the goats, who is in. The ones who fed me when I was hungry, gave me a cup of water when I was thirsty, visited me in prison, took care of me when I was sick. Those are the ones who did to me.
- [27:12]
B
Wow.
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A
That is Jesus painting a picture of Christianity. That is beautiful. And it's quite hopeful.
- [27:21]
B
That's right.
- [27:23]
A
I have to have the words of Jesus.
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B
Amen. Amen. In this moment.
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A
In this moment, we need him. Yes, we need him.
- [27:30]
B
Well, I talked to Dr. Emerson. You know, given his research, you know, is there any hope and what are his thoughts on that? For the hope. What is the hope for the body of Christ? And so we're going to listen to what he had to say about that.
- [27:49]
C
Here's my hope. My hope is that we lay bare that this religion that's being practiced by millions and millions of people is not Christianity. That lots of people are going to say, I want to convert to Christianity. I want to see a mask. This is my hope. A mass conversion to actual biblical, authentic Christianity. And that we need. We can't. We can't take what we have and then try to change it around the edges. It's fundamentally the wrong religion to Begin with. So that has to be rejected. And a mass conversion to Christ is what has to happen and what I hope will happen. Of course, I mean, we've seen times of revival in our country, so I'm looking for that.
- [28:40]
B
Pastor Rich. This is why I so appreciate rigorous research and knowledge. Because ultimately, what Dr. Emerson is suggesting is that our hope is in knowledge. Our hope is in truth telling. And this research that he is doing, along with his colleagues, is telling the truth about what is Christianity and what isn't. It's highlighting what those symbols of the religion of whiteness are and how they are different from Christianity. And unfortunately, more sadly, actually, millions and millions of people may in fact be worshiping the idol of whiteness or the. Or practicing the religion of whiteness rather than Christianity. And if we can lay bare, as he said, that distinction of what and what. And really show what the good news is, because it really is good news to set the oppressed free. Right. To bring us freedom, to show us the love of God. And that. That would be so awesome for people to be able to see that, for us to lift that up, to lift Christ up and to show what isn't Christ. So I hear him there. I think this is. This is hopeful. Knowledge is hopeful. Right. If we do not know, how can we make a change? And that is exactly what I suggest. And I hear Dr. Emerson saying, and again, as we talked about with Dr. DeYoung, that truth telling is a critical part of reparations.
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A
Yes. And the people perish for a lack of knowledge.
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B
Oh, my goodness. I think you just said a word.
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A
And the Lord does not want anyone to perish, but everyone one to come to.
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B
Come on now. Did you just start preaching?
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A
I think I might have.
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B
I think you might have.
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A
Chew the ham and be three.
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B
There it goes.
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A
So when you come on down to the altar, you are receiving a true and beautiful Jesus.
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B
Amen.
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A
And rejecting a. A culture of white Christianity, a religion of whiteness.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And exchanging that for something far better.
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B
Come on.
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A
May a revival come to. To this country. That's this land.
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B
That's right. That's right.
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A
And. And for people to be restored to wholeness.
- [31:06]
B
Amen. Amen. You know, because it is so important if we're going to live out the dream, if we're going to be one, we have to excise this illness of whiteness and white supremacy out of the body. We have to be able to see it for what it is and be able to break it down and remove it.
- [31:30]
A
That's right.
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B
And be. And Be radical about it.
- [31:32]
A
That's right.
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B
You know, some. Some things require radical change. Some things require radical treatment. And this is one of those issues. White supremacy requires a radical treatment. And. And I hope that. I hope that as the body of Christ, that we would do that. We would treat it as such and.
- [31:57]
A
We would do it as a family together. Come on, you're not out here on your own. You're not out here healing yourself. Yeah, we're healing one another. We're to be healers of one another, restorers of one another. Yeah, the beloved community together.
- [32:15]
B
That's right. That's right.
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A
Leaving no one out. You want to come receive your wholeness. You want to come receive your healing. You want to come receive your deliverance. We're here to do that together.
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B
But you have to leave your white supremacy at the dough.
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A
You have to leave it.
- [32:28]
B
Whiteness can't come in, Cannot. It's not accepted. And you know why? It's also important, Pastor Rich. It's not just about having a revival so that people can see the true Christianity. It's also so that people who have begun to, in a sense, worship whiteness practice a religion of whiteness, that they can come to the real grace and love of Christ. Because ultimately, you know, that is getting in the way. That's a barrier to understanding God and God's love for them. Right? That, that truth telling about whiteness and white supremacy. That. That is not Christianity. That anger against any image of God, that's not white, that's not Christianity. That putting the flag and the cross together, that's not Christianity. And what that's doing is it's getting in the way of you experiencing God's love, of you experiencing God's grace. Because if you're going to invest in a religion of whiteness, you are investing in a religion of works because you have to work at that whiteness stuff, Right? Because your value is tied into your. Tied to your whiteness. And you have to work at maintaining a system that says I and other people like me and spaces that are for me are better than people that are not white in spaces that are for you. And that requires work. But Jesus says, come, come. You don't have to do that, but you have to leave your whiteness at the door. We have to leave all of our idols at the door when we come to Christ.
- [34:14]
A
So this was a. This might have been a strong word out of all of the episodes. Listeners might, Might feel some kind of way, as we say, and that's okay. And that's all right.
- [34:25]
B
That's okay. We feel that, too, because many people who heard Jesus felt some kind of way.
- [34:31]
A
They did. And he bid them to come. Come to me, all you who labor and are heavy laden.
- [34:38]
B
Yes.
- [34:38]
A
I'll give you rest. Well, Dr. Corey, this has been a wonderful episode. Thank you again for an amazing interview with Dr. Michael Emerson. Thank you for so much and for sharing your friends with our listening audience. And thank you all as well for subscribing and sharing the Elusive Dream podcast. You can find this podcast on Apple Podcasts as well as Spotify. We really appreciate all the shares that.
- [35:05]
B
You all are giving. Thank you so much.
- [35:07]
A
I even saw some wonderful, wonderful feedback from some close friends and colleagues.
- [35:13]
B
Yes.
- [35:13]
A
Oh, my goodness. It's so good.
- [35:15]
B
It is. It really feels good. I'm super grateful for that. It's meant a lot.
- [35:20]
A
It has you, too, huh? Yes, it really.
- [35:22]
B
Yeah. Thank you all.
- [35:23]
A
Thank you all. So, Dr. Corey, where can people find you if they want to connect with you?
- [35:27]
B
Yes. Well, you can find me on Twitter and you can also find me on Facebook. And now I am on the grams, as you like to say, Pastor Rich. Instagram just starting, so not a lot of photos there, but I spell my name K O R I E Little Edwards. You can find me at CoreLittle Edwards.
- [35:46]
A
And you can find me. Thank you for asking me, Dr. Corey.
- [35:49]
B
I'm sorry.
- [35:51]
A
You can find me on the Twitter.
- [35:53]
B
Pastor Rich. Where can they find you?
- [35:56]
A
Well, you can find me on Twitter at Richard Wesley and on the gram. RichJohnson Online.
- [36:02]
B
I don't even say it right. So how are we going to leave our episodes this time, Pastor Rich? What do we got to say?
- [36:10]
A
Well, what we say each. Each time, Dr. Corey. The dream may be elusive, but it is possible.
- [36:16]
B
It is attainable.
- [36:17]
A
It is attainable. That's what we.
- [36:33]
C
Sam.