The Elusive Dream Podcast

Episode 6: The Religion of Whiteness

Hosts: Dr. Korie Little Edwards & Pastor Rich Johnson
Guest: Dr. Michael O. Emerson
Date: March 29, 2021

Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, hosts Dr. Korie Little Edwards and Pastor Rich Johnson dive deep into the intersection of race and religion, focusing on what Dr. Emerson calls “the religion of whiteness.” Through Dr. Emerson’s groundbreaking research on race and religion, the conversation analyzes why racial divisions among Christians have deepened over the last 20 years and interrogates the emotional and structural ties between white Christianity and white supremacy. The dialogue calls for honesty, lament, and ultimately, a radical conversion to authentic Christianity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recap and Setting the Stage (00:34–03:26)

• The hosts recap the previous episode’s focus on the language of reconciliation and reparations, emphasizing that as language loses its impact, new language is needed to build a united Christian imagination.
• Introduction of Dr. Michael Emerson, a leading sociologist whose new study is the largest on race and religion in America.

2. Dr. Michael Emerson’s Research Findings: Division Among Christians (03:26–06:20)

• Main Study: Dr. Emerson reflects on his earlier work, Divided by Faith, and shares key findings from his new research.
• Key Finding: Racial divisions among Christians have not improved in 20 years; in fact, the gap has widened, especially in terms of intensity.
• Notable Quote:

  “We found...either [divisions] have stayed the same or ...gotten larger, which ...is disappointing.”
  — Dr. Emerson (03:52)

3. Intensity of Racial Division and Emotion (06:20–09:49)

• Emerson describes that, compared to non-Christians, white Christians show the most intense negative reactions to words like “white privilege” and “black power.” Anger was the predominant response.
• Notable Quote:

  “Seemingly good, upstanding white Christians would literally swear at us... The anger quickly showed itself. And that was the number one feeling.”
  — Dr. Emerson (05:26)

Timestamps:

• Discussion of intense anger from white Christians around racial justice terms: 06:20–09:49

4. Historical and Sociological Explanations (10:11–12:17)

• Dr. Little Edwards offers the sociological framework of “perceived threat”—that dominant groups, when sensing their power diminishing (e.g., after Obama’s election), react with greater resistance and defensiveness.
• The conversation addresses misconceptions of “privilege” among white Christians, highlighting its structural—not individual—nature.

5. Contrasts in Emotional Responses (Black vs. White Christians) (12:32–15:41)

• Emerson’s Survey Data: Black Christians felt “sadness” at the term “white privilege,” and “hope” when hearing “black power.”
• Key Difference: The emotional chasm exists not just across race, but intensifies across religious lines.
• Notable Quote:

  “The number one feeling [for] white privilege is sadness. The number one [at] ‘black power’ was hope ...these differences were so dramatic.”
  — Dr. Emerson (13:39)

• The hosts attribute these differences partly to divergent historical interpretations and lived experiences.

6. The Theory: “Religion of Whiteness” (16:01–19:46)

• Emerson argues that what is often labeled as “white Christianity” in America isn’t truly Christianity, but what he terms the religion of whiteness:
• Main Tenets:
  • Maintains power, hierarchy, and worship of “whiteness.”
  • Symbolized in the worship of a white Jesus and the merging of the cross and the American flag (totems).
  • Maintains power and even racially diverse churches can reinforce white dominance.
• Notable Quotes:

  “White Christianity in the United States is not Christianity...it should be called the religion of whiteness. The number one thing that this religion does is protect, lift up, and worship whiteness.”
  — Dr. Emerson (18:08)
  “They’re not the brothers and sisters. They have different religions.”
  — Dr. Emerson (19:45)

7. Interpretation & Lament (19:46–26:34)

• Dr. Little Edwards and Pastor Rich react:
  • “He just dropped the mic...White Christianity is not Christianity—it should be called a religion of whiteness.” (19:53)
  • Analysis of how religious language, symbols, and emotion support a white supremacist structure.
• Durkheimian Analysis: The symbols, emotions, and social structures of whiteness fulfill all the markers of religion.
• Implications for churches, pastors, and Christians regarding their theological imagination and fidelity to the Gospel versus cultural supremacy.

8. Hope and the Path Forward (27:48–30:19)

• Dr. Emerson’s hope: A mass conversion—rejecting the religion of whiteness in favor of authentic, biblical Christianity.
• Real change cannot be achieved by tweaking at the edges; it demands a fundamental rejection and transformation.
• Notable Quote:

  “My hope is that we lay bare that this religion...is not Christianity...A mass conversion to actual biblical, authentic Christianity...We need to reject [the religion of whiteness].”
  — Dr. Emerson (27:48)

9. Call for Truth-Telling, Repentance, and Radical Change (30:19–34:13)

• The hosts stress the importance of rigorous knowledge and research (“our hope is in knowledge, our hope is in truth-telling”).
• Lament for the complicity of white Christianity in white supremacy.
• Scriptural call to action: True family and faith are defined by those who do the will of God, not by racial or cultural identity.
• The hosts urge listeners, especially church leaders, to reject idolatry of whiteness:
  • “You have to leave your white supremacy at the door...Whiteness can't come in.” (32:24)

Notable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 03:52 | Dr. Emerson | “We found...either [divisions] have stayed the same or ...gotten larger, which ...is disappointing.” | | 05:26 | Dr. Emerson | “Seemingly good, upstanding white Christians would literally swear at us... The anger quickly showed itself. And that was the number one feeling.” | | 13:39 | Dr. Emerson | “The number one feeling [for] white privilege is sadness. The number one [at] ‘black power’ was hope ...these differences were so dramatic.” | | 18:08 | Dr. Emerson | “White Christianity in the United States is not Christianity...it should be called the religion of whiteness. The number one thing that this religion does is protect, lift up, and worship whiteness.” | | 19:45 | Dr. Emerson | “They’re not the brothers and sisters. They have different religions.” | | 21:58 | Dr. Little Edwards | “Religion is used as a tool of white supremacy...to maintain white supremacy. To lift up whiteness to protect whiteness. And it seems like at any cost.” | | 27:48 | Dr. Emerson | “My hope is that we lay bare that this religion...is not Christianity...A mass conversion to actual biblical, authentic Christianity...We need to reject [the religion of whiteness].” | | 32:24 | Dr. Little Edwards | “You have to leave your white supremacy at the door...Whiteness can't come in, cannot. It's not accepted.” |

Timestamps of Key Segments

• Dr. Emerson describes increased intensity of racial division: 03:26–06:20
• White Christians’ emotional responses to racial terms: 06:20–09:49
• Sociological explanation of perceived threat and privilege: 10:11–12:17
• Contrasts in black vs. white Christian emotional responses: 12:32–15:41
• Introduction of ‘religion of whiteness’: 16:01–19:46
• Hosts’ reflection and practical implications: 19:46–26:34
• Path forward and hope for ‘mass conversion’: 27:48–30:19
• Call for repentance and radical change: 30:19–34:13

Tone & Language

The conversation is honest, heartfelt, and at times challenging, laced with lament but also hope. The tone is empathetic and scholarly, with both hosts and guest weaving together scholarship, personal reflection, scriptural references, and a prophetic invitation to radical transformation.

Conclusion

The episode challenges listeners—especially Christians and church leaders—to confront the "religion of whiteness" that has shaped American Christianity’s racial divisions. By laying bare the structures and emotions at its root, the hosts and Dr. Emerson advocate for knowledge, truth-telling, and a mass conversion to an authentic, liberating Gospel that rejects all forms of white supremacy.

“May a revival come to this country...but you have to leave your white supremacy at the door.” – Dr. Korie Little Edwards, (32:24)