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- [00:05]
Dave Ramsey
You know, most of us didn't start our business because we wanted to be salespeople. We weren't dreaming of cold calls or pitch decks. We started our business because we had something real to offer. We wanted to serve people. Here's the reality, though. If you don't learn how to sell, your business will die. That's just how it works. But it's amazing how many small business owners say, I'm just not good at sales or I don't want to be pushy. They think sales means being slimy, manipulative, or talking somebody into something they don't need. And if that's your definition of selling, no wonder you don't want to do it. So in this episode, Entree Leadership's head coach John Felkins is sitting down with senior vice president Chris Campbell to define what selling actually is and what it isn't. Because if your definition of selling is broken, your business will suffer. Let's get to Chris.
- [01:00]
John Felkins
Thanks for being with us today. Exciting. You've been here at Ramsey for how long?
- [01:06]
Chris Campbell
Heading into 18 years.
- [01:07]
John Felkins
18 years. So, like, basically forever.
- [01:10]
Chris Campbell
Yeah.
- [01:10]
John Felkins
And I think the whole time you've been in sales, haven't you, in one way or the other?
- [01:15]
Chris Campbell
Yeah, absolutely.
- [01:16]
John Felkins
I feel like we hear a lot of misconceptions about sales, so I'd love you to talk about what sales is and what it isn't. You know, I just think people get confused about that, and there's a lot of fear around it. So you've learned a lot over your whole career. Talk a little bit about what sales isn't.
- [01:35]
Chris Campbell
Yeah, well, sales is not getting someone to do something they don't want to do. That's not what sales is. And I believe that's what most people think that it is. You know, you watch a movie like Boiler Room, you watch Wolf on Wall street, or maybe you have a bad interaction with somebody at a store or something like that or buying a car, and you're like, ugh, I never want to be like that. I agree. You don't want to be like that. Right. Sales is more like, in my opinion, like being a doctor. They say it this way, that, like, a good doctor will always kind of figure out what's going on with you and then prescribe something, and then you get better. Right. You need that. But it's called malpractice. If you do it the opposite way. If I give you a diagnosis, if I give you a prescription without a diagnosis, that's called malpractice. Right. And so when I'm thinking about doing it the right way. I've got to ask really good questions. I've got to really know what's going on there with that person and then see, hey, is what I have is that's going to help? Is that going to help them hit their goals? Even if what they're telling me, the reason why they can't do it is bubbling up, I know that that's really where the money is made and sales are really coming to play is during the objections, because that's what's held them in that spot they've been stuck in forever. So again, it's not getting someone to do something they don't want to do. It's helping someone get to a spot to see, oh, wow, I need this. And I see how this is going to serve me and getting unstuck in life.
- [02:55]
John Felkins
Okay. But I just heard you say it's not getting somebody to do something they don't want to do.
- [03:01]
Chris Campbell
That's correct.
- [03:01]
John Felkins
But then you use this word, objections.
- [03:03]
Chris Campbell
Yeah.
- [03:03]
John Felkins
Talk a little bit about the difference between those two things.
- [03:06]
Chris Campbell
Yeah, yeah. An objection generally is the reason. Again, I view it this way. Objections are the reasons why someone stays stuck in life generally. Right. Well, I would go do that weight loss thing and work with a guy one on one that's just too expensive. And then they'll go spend money on a variety of other things. So is it really about it being expensive or is it about the challenge and the obstacle that's going on internally with them? Right. There's a great book by Albert Ellis called the Distortions of Reality, and he was one of the creators of cognitive behavioral therapy. And, you know, and you and I both deal with this. Everybody, you know, deals with it. Listen, we all blame circumstances, other people, or we think, hey, we're not the type of person that deserves that or should get that. And that's the objection that someone's dealing with. Right. I can't because Biden's in office, because Trump's in office or whatever you want to pick. Right. Whatever your party you want to be in. That's the reason why I can't. Or I can't because the interest rates circumstantial. Other people. Hey, man, my mom didn't give me this. My dad didn't give me this. My teacher didn't teach me this. Well, that person I'm giving a lot of power to, for me staying stuck in my life or, hey, you don't know my background. And people like me, we don't get to do Things like that. It's like, wow, there's a lot going on there, right? Well, guess what? If it works in the counseling world for somebody to see, like, why they get stuck and why they stay there, and it's all about the past. It's never really about the future. Well, when you're in sales, you get to kind of, like, deal with that with somebody. And I'm not saying you replace Dr. Finkelstein. Okay, I'm not telling you to become a counselor. But what I am trying to say is, like, hey, there's a reason why that person, especially if you ask the question, how long you been dealing with this? And they say, for any amount of time other than a few days, that's costing them something. And you're able to kind of lean into that. That's an objection. And that's why I say, hey, this is something that's been holding someone back in their life. And if you can help them overcome that, that's not getting someone to do something they don't want to do. That's helping them get something that they're never going to get if you don't engage them the right way. And so they will stay where they are. And you have to be not okay with that. And again, if they want to say no, if they say, hey, look, I don't want that, I actually am really good with that. A no is a fantastic place for someone to get to. When you're in a sales conversation, you're like, kris, wow, you probably don't make a lot of money. Because if you're good with a no. Actually, a no is clear. You see, when they came to you, you know where they were, they were in a maybe state. I may do this. I may not do this, or whatever. When they get clarity on a no, what that allows them to do is build desire. Because the next morning, they get to wake up. Especially if you engage them the right way. They look in the mirror and they go, I have a way out of this, and I just said no to it. The person in the mirror is the reason why I'm stuck. Now. It may take two days, it may take six weeks, but eventually they'll go, I need to do something. I now have the power to do something about it. That person challenged me in a way that no one else ever talked to me. But maybe is the worst. Heck, maybe. Oh, my gosh. You and I both.
- [06:12]
Dave Ramsey
Ugh.
- [06:13]
Chris Campbell
Who wants to be in a maybe zone? Nobody. Yes or no. Right. It's even biblical. You got your yes. Be yes. And your no be no. I never read anything on maybes in there. Right. And so it's just a good way to think if you're a salesperson.
- [06:27]
John Felkins
So that's a powerful mindset if you're the salesperson. And I haven't been here as long as you have, but I've been here long enough. I remember when you weren't leading such big teams, you were more that person where your mindset. But let's shift gears a little bit and talk about leading sales team because like I said, our viewers are business owners. Right. So like you, maybe they started having to sell the thing, the service or the product themselves. But then they transcend that. They need to get help doing sales across the business. To talk a little bit about what you've learned about how to build a sales team, maybe even starting with how do you make your first sales higher? What are you looking for? What's important about that?
- [07:10]
Chris Campbell
Absolutely. You know, I want somebody with grit. Life is hard. Sales is hard. It's not an easy profession, but it's one of the highest paid professions on the planet.
- [07:19]
John Felkins
Why is that?
- [07:20]
Chris Campbell
Well, because you solve big problems. Your income will always be in the direct proportion to the problems you solve and the ability that it takes to replace you. Right now, I'm not going to talk down a janitor or anything like that, but if you're sweeping a floor, I can usually find a person to learn to sweep a floor in a couple hours. But if I'm a brain surgeon, you probably don't want that brain surgeon working on you. And it takes a long time to go to school. It takes a lot of skill set. And by the way, the problem is huge because the consequences are large. And when you're dealing with somebody in sales, especially if you're selling something that's very expensive, there's usually a set of problems that it solves that that it just takes a lot of energy and time. There's been a lot of thought process into it. And by the way, the rewards on the other side of that for both parties, the salesperson and the customer should be massive. And you know what? That takes a lot to replace. You can't teach that in a couple hours. And so I want to see that person that's gritty, I want to see that person that's always willing to learn. I've heard Dave use this statement that hey, personal development is just that, it's personal. I want somebody who is personally developing all the time. If I sit down with somebody who I'm Wanting to come into a sales team, I want to learn something from them. In that meeting, in that interview, I should be learning from them. If they come in and go, well, what would I do? And, like, I don't know how I'd do it. I'm like, nope. I want to bring somebody on that's going to say, hey, I've been looking at your product and I would think these are probably your top objections. Does that sound about right? Well, it's actually this cool. I've also thought about that one. Here's how I would probably overcome that. And they actually start telling you how they're going to come in and start impacting things like that. Now, is it going to be perfect? No. But that person compared to what's your website again? So what do you guys sell? You know, you're like, get out. Right? And listen, we've all maybe in desperation, hired that guy and thought, you know what? I'll build them, I won't buy them, you know? Okay.
- [09:14]
John Felkins
I know I have.
- [09:15]
Chris Campbell
Yeah, trust me. I was probably that person here. I think I'll get it figured out, you know? But it becomes one of those things you're looking for grit, personal development. You're looking for somebody who is interested in your product, interested in your customers, interested in the problems of your customers. Someone who knows how to listen, someone knows how to ask questions, someone knows how to lean in. They're not afraid. They're not afraid. I can't say enough about that.
- [09:43]
Dave Ramsey
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- [11:05]
John Felkins
Is it not being afraid or is it having the courage to do something when you're afraid?
- [11:10]
Chris Campbell
Oh, I mean, that's what courage is, right? Yeah. I mean, that's ultimately what it is. When I say not be afraid, what I'm saying is they're not afraid of someone saying no. Because we just talked about that. Like, well, no is not a bad thing. They understand the value of that. They're not afraid to ask the hard questions. Most people, as I said earlier, they stay stuck in life because somebody never stops and just steps into it and says, hey, you want to do something about that? And they don't need to go sit in a corner and suck their thumb because somebody said, well, they. That's mean. It's like, no, it's not. It's mean to leave you here. They just don't think like that. And, yeah, you're calling it out. Perfect. It is courage. That's. I mean, that's really what it is. There's fear and you still step in anyway, right?
- [11:51]
John Felkins
Still do it.
- [11:52]
Chris Campbell
Yeah. It's part of our core values here. Fear not. That doesn't mean we're not fearful. It means we have courage in the face of it.
- [11:57]
John Felkins
Right. So, okay, that's a super good map for what you're looking for when you're making that hire. Let's take a next step now. Let's say you got a handful of these people. I gotta imagine it's a little bit different to lead a sales team, a whole team of salespeople, than it is doing it yourself or maybe even just having one person help you? What lessons have you learned along the way about how to lead an entire team of these people that aren't afraid to hear no, aren't afraid to push, aren't afraid to ask for what they want. I mean, I'm kind of imagining that from a leadership perspective, that could probably be like herding cats. I mean, that can be a tough role.
- [12:38]
Chris Campbell
Hot. Yeah. Cats on a hot tin roof, for sure. They're everywhere. They're going nuts. Here's the thing, you can't leave them alone. Just like any role you have on your team, a good leader never abdicates. They've got to lean in. They can't assume. They can't assume that this person's. Get it. They can't assume that Johnny's got it, that Tina's got it, that Bob's got it. They need to go in and lean in. As I've taken Over sales teams, over time. One of the things that I implement is a thing called, like, hey, the top five list. Top five list is like, hey, what are the three to five things that every day you need to come in that I believe will make you the most successful? And at the end of that, I'm going to ask you, is there anything blocking you from hitting your goal? And I'm doing that on a daily basis. Why would I do that on a daily basis, John? Because if I meet with them one on one every week, I'm going to meet with them four times in a month, 48 times in a year. If I do that every day, I'll meet with them 22 times in a month. You think I'll pick up on somebody sliding off, going the different direction?
- [13:38]
John Felkins
If it was me, I'd need that frequency, right? Because I'd forget. I'd slip, you know, Focus slips.
- [13:43]
Chris Campbell
Yeah. And I'm not married to the things on the list. I'm married to the discipline. Jocko says, discipline equals freedom. Well, I want them to be free, but they gotta make sure they have the right disciplines inside of that. And so having something like that inside of the team is paramount. A few days ago, I had lunch with one of our sales guys, and I said, hey, he was starting to do the top five, okay? And I said, does it. Does it feel like micromanagement? Don't. Don't lie. And he goes, kind of. And I said, cool. I said, let me ask you something. What's the biggest thing blocking you from winning right now in your role in sales? He said, man, objections, man. I don't know what to do with objections. I said, let me ask you something. If you got up every morning at 4 or 5 in the morning and you wrote, I did the top five or six objections that you deal with on a daily basis, you spend an hour coming up with ways to overcome those every day. Where would you be in 90 days? He goes, oh, I'd be a beast in my role. And I kind of sat back in my chair and kind of looked at him, and he goes, it's me. And I'm like, yeah, it's you, baby.
- [14:44]
John Felkins
It's always you.
- [14:45]
Chris Campbell
It's always you. It's circumstances, other people. Hey, it's a sales process. It's this piece of paper the boss put in front of me. It's micromanagement. No, no, no, no. You will be a beast. You called it out. So now you have a choice. You ain't got a reason or an excuse. So what are you going to do about it? That's the top five. So when I'm leading a team, I'm trying to make sure, number one, do they know what success looked like? Are they having the engagements on a daily basis? You will not be able to walk away, go on a trip for three weeks, come back and have a really high functioning sales team. It ain't going to work. That ain't the way life works. You will have chaos on your hands and you may never get. You may never get it restored. It may just be that way forever. And you may have to start removing people because they get a mindset set in. So that's how I believe you have to kind of look at a team. Does that sound like a lot of work? Yeah. But I promise you, the rewards on the other side of that mountain are really good too.
- [15:35]
John Felkins
Absolutely. So I know even in the roles that you've had, I know we joked a little bit about, you know, the different coaching teams and we're focused on business leaders, but I know that you have worked with a ton of business leaders also and that's who's watching. So let me ask you what, what one thing would you tell a business owner about sales? What would you want them to know?
- [15:56]
Dave Ramsey
Yeah.
- [15:56]
Chris Campbell
Well, number one, nothing in your business is going to move. Nothing happens unless a sale happens. Man, we got the best operations. That's awesome. How you get money to pay for those guys and gals? Man, we've got the best marketing. Really? How's that playing out? Ogilvy, one of the best designers, said, you know what the best sell, the best creative is? It's the one that sells. Even he thought, yep, going to need that to happen. If you look at sales as something that's just like, man, we just got to have it. Versus, hey, this is the heartbeat of our organization. This is what we do. And I don't want you selling something you don't believe serves somebody. That doesn't solve a problem. But when you believe it serves someone, solves a problem, unlocks people in their lives. How much do you have to not like somebody to not say, hey, you should do this, John, you should do this. I'm going to tell you why or you've told me your problem. I'll tell you how it's going to work like that. And so as a leader, embrace sales. It's difficult. Sure. So was walking the first time when you started that? Right. So was dating when you first started that? If you're not willing to look foolish on that, it's the repetitions. You know, I've got a 10 year old right now, man. He plays baseball and he doesn't practice very much and there's another kid on the team practice all the time. I said, you know why he's better than you? Because he hits all, all the time. If you're not good at it right now, good reps, do something about it. And if you're doing okay, start reading, doing things like this, going to conference, do whatever you got to do to get better at it. You need to be world class at it. Your team should see you try to get on the phone as much as they're trying to get on the phone to go, hey, watch, I'll do it. Watch, I'll do it. Listen to this. And then you're listening to them, man. If you can embrace that, you're going to see the dividends from it and it's gonna be hard. Good. You know what I'm saying? Good.
- [17:44]
John Felkins
I love it. Thanks, Chris.
- [17:45]
Chris Campbell
Yeah, man. Absolutely.
- [17:47]
Dave Ramsey
Done right. Selling is about serving people with confidence. It's solving real problems. It's helping people get what they need. And if you believe in what you offer, and I hope you do, then you've got to stop seeing sales as a necessary evil. Because once you get this right, your business will grow, your team will get stronger, and your impact will multiply. Now, if you know you need help with your mindset or your team's mindset around sales, we're offering a free 30 minute consultation with one of our entree leadership coaches. This is your chance to get one on one guidance, talk through what's keeping you stuck and walk away with clear next steps. Just click the link in the description to schedule a call. And if you've enjoyed today's episode, be sure to like, share and subscribe for more great leadership content. I'm your host, Dave Ramsey and this is Entre leadership.