The Hidden System That Scales Sales Teams to 8 Figures | Josh Troy

Summary

The Entrepreneur DNA: "The Hidden System That Scales Sales Teams to 8 Figures"

Host: Justin Colby (Bleav)
Guest: Josh Troy (RevOps Operator, Sales Team Builder, Outsourced Sales Leader)
Date: April 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this dynamic and insight-packed episode, Justin Colby sits down with Josh Troy, a "RevOps operator" who’s quietly helped multiple companies scale their sales teams into the seven- and eight-figure range. The discussion dives deep into what differentiates true revenue operations (RevOps) from traditional sales, the operational inefficiencies that plague most growth-oriented businesses, and how small companies can escape the founder-led sales trap. Listeners get both high-level frameworks and actionable specifics on structuring teams, defining roles, leveraging AI for sales optimization, and building processes that create explosive—and repeatable—growth.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. What is RevOps? Differentiating Sales from Revenue Operations

[03:14–04:26]

• RevOps defined: Josh describes RevOps as the operational side of sales—systems, processes, data, and efficiency behind revenue growth—not just closing techniques or script training.
  • “Most of the money’s in the spreadsheets, it’s in the processes and the actual systems rather than just what’s said on a call.” (Josh Troy, 04:17)
• RevOps obsesses over everything that helps revenue scale—lead scoring, call models, risk mitigation—not just what happens during a sales conversation.

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2. Systemization as the Key to Scale

[04:36–05:30]

• Many smaller businesses avoid systemization, thinking documentation is unnecessary when the founder is doing all the work—Josh argues that’s precisely the barrier to growth.
• Risk Mitigation: Not documenting processes increases business risk if a key team member leaves.
• “You systematize, you document process, you create transferable value.” (Josh Troy, 04:46)

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3. Sequencing: Lead Generation vs. Sales Efficiency

[05:52–06:29]

• Josh advises that predictable lead flow is a prerequisite to sales scaling. The sequence: get leads, then optimize sales.
• “You can’t sell somebody you don’t have. So you definitely want to get the lead flow.” (Josh Troy, 06:09)

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4. Escaping the Founder-Led Sales Trap

[07:15–08:22]

• One of the hardest transitions is moving from founder-led to team-driven sales.
• Systematization creates “transferable value,” allowing revenue to come from others, enabling the founder to act as a true CEO.
• “Most CEOs and operators at small levels of revenue are just glorified salespeople that also give some marching orders.” (Josh Troy, 08:14)

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5. Limiting Beliefs and Letting Go of Control

[08:44–10:41]

• Many solo founders struggle to delegate due to a mix of control issues and operational ignorance.
• Limiting beliefs, like “I can’t teach my style,” prevent progress—standardization is key.
• “If someone can do the job 80% as well as you can, that’s a win.” (Josh Troy, 10:14)
• Lack of experience or knowledge (Not knowing “how” to build/systems) leads to inertia.

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6. Top Needs of Scaling Businesses: Efficiency Above All

[11:18–15:49]

• Across all business sizes—even 8-figure companies—the #1 need is operational efficiency.
• Josh’s core metric for reps: Collected Dollar Per Booked Call (CDPBC): a holistic measure capturing not just revenue but show rates, collections, pricing, closing metrics.
• “Most people incentivize incorrectly because they don’t know how to analyze this collected dollar per booked call.” (Josh Troy, 14:02)
• Focusing on efficiency, not just growth, unlocks profit at every stage.

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7. Why Companies Struggle: CRM Mess, Churn, Activation Gaps

[16:13–17:33]

• Common issues: underperforming reps, poor recruiting and churn, bad CRMs, no clear reporting, untapped databases.
• Many neglect reactivation campaigns and engagement-based follow-up; crucial for leveraging old leads.
• SDR (Setter/Sales Dev Rep) and AE (Account Exec/Closer) roles are key to modern sales ops.

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8. Who is the Ideal Client? SLG Businesses, High Growth, Higher Ticket

[19:41–21:13]

• Industry-agnostic, but only works with Sales-Led Growth (SLG) organizations, not e-commerce.
• High-ticket, high-growth, lead gen–driven companies with a strong desire to scale rapidly.

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9. The Danger of “Hiring Out of Confusion”

[22:32–26:27]

• Most founders/entrepreneurs don’t build businesses via budgets, spreadsheets, or org capacity models—leading to random, reactive hiring and operational bloat.
• “They just start hiring people—typically out of overwhelm, typically to fix a problem that’s probably just a symptom.” (Josh Troy, 25:34)
• Josh builds out capacity-based models: every role is traced to revenue, and hiring is forecasted at each growth stage.

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10. The Importance of Role Clarity and Position Playbooks

[29:58–32:40]

• Every role must have a clear playbook (responsibilities, KPIs, outcomes); it ensures clarity, accountability, and repeatability.
• “I call it a position playbook…Every single role has one. And they’re updated pretty constantly as well.” (Josh Troy, 30:49)
• If a team member is underperforming, strict adherence to the playbook is required; otherwise, top performers can adapt.

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11. Specialization in Sales: Setters vs. Closers

[33:48–38:14]

• Josh emphasizes the evolution from full-cycle sales reps to specialized setters (pipeline generation) and closers (conducting sales calls).
• Role specialization increases speed, efficiency, and earning potential for top talent.
• The “setter” role is undervalued and under-trained but critical for maximizing revenue.
• “So much of your money comes from setters… There are so many setter engines that just suck or they’re broken, or they don’t exist.” (Josh Troy, 38:04)

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12. Advanced Strategies: AI in Sales Ops

[39:57–48:25]

• AI has not replaced trust-based, high-ticket sales—but it massively augments capacity by automating repetitive, non-core tasks.
• AI Use Case #1: Call Intelligence
  • 100% call review and scoring for quality, process adherence, regulatory compliance, and product knowledge.
  • “No matter how good you are… you’re only ever managing based on a sample size… What AI has done… we review 100% of every single call ever had and we give feedback and score 100% of every call.” (Josh Troy, 41:22)
  • Real-time feedback loops yield actionable marketing and sales insights from every customer conversation.
• AI Use Case #2: Lead Reactivation and Smart Scoring
  • AI-driven scoring reacts to engagement (opens, webinar registrations, downloads) for automated, hyper-personalized outreach—making large databases actionable and maximizing ROI.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Systemization:
  “You systematize, you document process, you create transferable value. Not to mention there’s risk mitigation there too…” (Josh Troy, 04:46)
• On Letting Go:
  “If someone can do the job 80% as well as you can, that’s a win.” (Josh Troy, 10:14)
• On Efficiency:
  “It’s how efficient is your system. And that concept… is how we run the whole business.” (Josh Troy, 11:56)
• On Over-Hiring:
  “They start making all these random hires and now they have a bloated model that doesn’t actually scale because the org chart will break at scale.” (Josh Troy, 25:16)
• On AI in Sales:
  “We review 100% of every single call ever had and we give feedback and score 100% of every call.” (Josh Troy, 41:22)

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Key Timestamps & Segments

| Time | Segment/Topic | |---------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:54–03:14 | Introduction to Josh Troy and what “RevOps” means | | 04:36–05:30 | Why small businesses delay systematization | | 06:44–07:07 | How to find and connect with Josh Troy | | 07:15–08:22 | Breaking free from founder-led sales | | 10:06–10:41 | Limiting beliefs and standardizing sales | | 12:22–15:49 | Efficiency as the holy grail (CDPBC metric explained) | | 17:33–19:29 | B2B vs. B2C sales models, SLG companies | | 22:32–26:27 | Reactive hiring, building org structures with clarity | | 29:58–32:40 | Importance of role playbooks & clarity | | 33:48–38:14 | Setters vs. closers, specialization, and problems with setter engines | | 39:57–48:25 | How AI is used for call intelligence, scoring, and lead activation |

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Actionable Takeaways

• Standardize & Systematize early, even as a small company—document processes, build playbooks, and define everything that’s repeatable.
• Measure sales rep performance by holistic efficiency (like CDPBC), not just revenue or close rate—look for metrics that combine all key factors.
• Use AI tools not to replace reps but to scale your management, compliance, and lead engagement capacity.
• Don’t hire impulsively: Build your org chart based on clear growth models and capacity triggers, not titles or resumes.
• Value setters: Invest in the pipeline-building side of sales operations; don’t overlook or understaff this function.
• Even at scale, efficiency and operational velocity remain the biggest revenue unlocks—not just adding more people.

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Connect with Josh Troy

• Instagram: @troy.joshua
• YouTube Channel: Search “Troy Joshua” for RevOps insights and strategies (8+ videos and counting)

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This episode is a masterclass in building a scalable, efficient, and profitable sales organization. Whether you’re a founder still hustling in the trenches or leading a maturing team, Josh's frameworks and practical tips will help you systematize your growth and build a sales engine that’s built to last.

Transcript

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[Justin Colby]

Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve click cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval. This is brought to you by the Entrepreneur DNA Community. It's finally out. You can actually be a part of the community. Learn from my guests each and every week. Live in person and actually engage with them. Actually talk to them live. Go to school.com entrepreneur DNA the community is out now. It's 25 bucks a month now. Get it while it's hot. What's up? The Entrepreneur DNA. We are back with another episode. As always, this is brought to you by our Entrepreneur DNA community. Go to school.com/forward/entrepreneur DNA be a part of the Community to learn from the guests themselves each and every week. Today's episode will not disappoint. This is a very high leverage individual. He is a rev Ops operator. He has many companies that he's helped build into a seven and eight figure business. He himself has 150 salespeople. Josh Troy is here.

[Josh Troy]

What's up, Justin? Good to see you, man.

[Justin Colby]

Man, I love it. I'm coming with the energy. And you know what, your success and your cool, calm demeanor, that's what it's all about.

[Josh Troy]

I like it, I love it. I love to.

[Justin Colby]

So rev Ops operator, I don't think it's a term a lot of people have heard describe what your expertise is.

[Josh Troy]

Yeah, I mean, listen, I think most commonly, most often I get grouped into this bucket as like a sales guru and I don't mind that. It's not offensive. Like sales is absolutely a superpower. I'm here because of my sales abilities. I started a sales company because that's what I love to do. But I've always differentiated the fact that there's a really big difference between sales and sales operations, or more broadly rev operations, which is abbreviated as rev ops. Right. And so to me, when you're scaling a business, it's not just about what's set on the call, which is really what sales trainers focus on. Right. It's scripting, it's tonality, it's discovery, it's everything that the reps actually do on a call. For me, I believe it's much more than that. And it's all the operation side of scaling a sales team. It's all high intensity sales teams. And so things like your systems, your call models, even things like lead scoring. Right. Anything that's in the operation that helps revenue scale is what I focus on. That's what I obsess on. And so I think most of the money's in the spreadsheets, it's in the processes and the actual systems rather than just what's set on a call.

[Justin Colby]

Do you find most businesses probably small to medium size, really don't want to focus on the operations. They want to focus on how do I just make more money, how do I make my sales team better?

[Josh Troy]

I think small businesses use an excuse to not systematize their business by saying they don't need to. Yet I've seen that my whole career, frankly. I actually myself a long time ago had that same mindset. I remember a long time ago I had a director of operations and he said that it didn't make any sense. To create process documentation. Because he said, what's the point of creating process documentation when the only people that are making it are the only ones that are doing it? But the, but the, but the point is that's how you scale. You systematize, you, you document process, you create transferable value. Not to mention there's risk mitigation there too, because all of a sudden you lose somebody when you're so small and you don't know how to do that person's job. So yeah, systemization, it's, it's, it's put off too long for sure. And now they're having to go backwards and rebuild everything.

[Justin Colby]

What would be, in your opinion, kind of senior in terms of what businesses need to do? They need to focus on lead generation and marketing or focus on sales. And I know most people are going to say both. Right. I understand you got to have one or another. But you know, talk to the small to medium sized business. They're doing pretty well, but they have a long ways to go to where their potential would be. What would you be focusing on more for them?

[Josh Troy]

Yeah, I'm kind of like a sequencing guy. So it's like what has to come first? What's the prerequisite? So although I'm sales and rev ops, the prerequisite is leads. You can't sell somebody you don't have. So you definitely want to get the lead flow. But I'll tell you this, depending on your business model, depending on what kind of business you have, it's not always predictable. Day one, like everybody wants it to be like your legion might be channel partners and referral partners and guerrilla marketing and generating opportunity. Right. But you have to start with the leads.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Josh Troy]

Plain and simple.

[Justin Colby]

And so you're, you're not a sales manager, you're not a sales trainer, you're not a sales guru. You're brilliant at sales. And I will tell you, I've worked with you and your company, so I vouch for Josh Troy, everybody. Phenomenal. Reach out to him immediately. Where do, where do we want them to go find you?

[Josh Troy]

Yeah, honestly, it's always best to just go to my Instagram. It's actually Troy Joshua. I'm Josh Troy. It's backwards. Troy Dot Joshua. I also, I don't have as much as you, Justin, obviously, but if you go to my YouTube channel, I have a new channel. It's not new. I mean, it started it maybe a year ago. The frequency is not that high yet, but there's like eight or nine videos there and you could Get a really good feel for the way that I approach revops.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah. So when you're talking to a company that, that is leaning into growing their sales team, getting more efficient in sales, what are you first focused on?

[Josh Troy]

Well, so it's kind of goes back to what you were just asking me on, you know, what happens first. I think the hardest part for a smaller business, let's say they're starting off and then we'll obviously compound and speak to some of the, you know, more successful operators here too. But at a basic level, the one of the hardest places for a company to get out of is founder led sales. Right. It's a business that the revenue only comes in if the founder brings it. Right. And I think as entrepreneurs a lot of the times we get stuck there with a ton of other roles as well. But especially, especially revenue and, and it, it that that's the whole thing. You're not systematizing the business. And so we bring a very predictable approach to how do you create process, how do you create transferable, transferable value and systems where you can plug other people into it. And so you're bringing in revenue without relying on yourself as a founder and you could actually focus on being a real CEO. Most CEOs and operators at small levels of revenue are just glorified salespeople that also give some marching orders.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Josh Troy]

So I think that to get out of that and to really work on the business, not in the business, like everybody says, you have to know how to build some of those things out to get off calls or to get off the legion piece to.

[Justin Colby]

You see a lot of. And I would, I'm gonna, I think I know your answer. Do you see a lot of these smaller solopreneurs have a really hard time getting out of their way to, to let go of that control.

[Josh Troy]

Absolutely.

[Justin Colby]

And do you think it's their control issue or do you think they're just not built operationally so they don't feel like they have the safety net for them to actually do it?

[Josh Troy]

I think it's a few things I, I think and I'm not a woo woo type person, but I will tell you, like, I think there's a lot of limiting beliefs that really stunt the speed in which they take action on these things. And so one of those limiting beliefs that I hear all the time is will I sell a certain way? And I don't, I don't have a script and I don't have a process, so I don't have a way to document it. I Can't teach it. It's just I do it naturally and I first of all document it regardless, because you're still going to get good examples and good stuff. But the other thing is the way that you build a sales team and the standardization it does, it is different. Like, here's my example. If I have a, you know, a sales guy say to me, you know, let's say they're a really good sales guy with a lot of credibility. And they say, well, I would do it a little bit differently and I probably wouldn't have the talk track in the way that you have it. I would say to them, well, neither, neither would I, but I've sold tens of millions of dollars on the phone. Go build a team of a hundred sales reps, 150 sales reps. And now how do you standardize it across the board?

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Josh Troy]

And so there's, there's a way that you have to do things differently. I had a mentor a long time ago, tell me, if somebody can do the job 80% as well as you can, that's a win. And so again, it's an expectation, it's a limiting belief that I think they have to sort of get around. And then the other part is they, they've just, they've, they've never done it before, they've never been there. And I think that's a big part of like the clients that come to us, whether it's just helping them build out their systems or whether it's fully outsourced sales. We have the playbooks, we have the track record and they don't have to pay the ignorance tasks. Right. We're collapsing the timeframe to their desired level of scale. So a lot of it is just general note, they don't know how to do it.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah. What do you see most of your clients coming to you for right now? Because you guys are very diverse. You guys are really good at a lot. And I mean, there's not a lot of companies that I could vouch for that. I could say you guys are like top tier and not just like a single thing. Like you're going to come in and change sales. Like you guys are great and rev operator. Right. Revenue operator. That is what you guys do operationally.

[Josh Troy]

Yep.

[Justin Colby]

What are you seeing a lot of these small to medium sized businesses kind of needing at this point? Is it more on the sales? Is it more on the operations, is it document? I mean, I know it's probably all of it, but what, what is the leading factor now?

[Josh Troy]

I'll Tell you this from working with small companies. And when I say small, you know, I don't know, a hundred grand a month now, by the way, like we actually have certain engagements where we can start to take on clients under that. But typically we say we're a scale team. We look for businesses that have some validation and they're ready to pour some fuel in the fire. But what I'll tell you is whether we're taking over a business or coming in to help scale the sales team on a business only doing 100 grand a month, or you know, someone that's already an eight figure business, you know, which you think to yourself, well, why would somebody that's already got. There's some people that are like, I would do anything to trade places with that person. Why would they still need you guys? And the word that comes to mind at any level of scale is efficiency. It's all around how efficient is your system. And that concept, by the way, is like how we run the whole business. So for example, with sales reps, we have one KPI that manages sales reps. It's cdpbc, which stands for collected dollar per booked call.

[Justin Colby]

Okay.

[Josh Troy]

And so the point here is, hold

[Justin Colby]

on, I want to even try to do it. Cdpbd.

[Josh Troy]

Cdpbc. C. All right, cdpbc. We also have gdpbc, which is gross dollars per booked call. But anyways, collected dollar per booked call. That's how efficient your rep is. The reason why is because a lot of people don't know how to manage sales teams. And so let me give you a quick example. I'm not putting you on the spot here, but I am. Let's say how would you manage? You know who your best sales rep is? What? What, what? You can't say my metric. What other metric would you use besides

[Justin Colby]

like how much revenue they brought in? Or that.

[Josh Troy]

Or that could be it.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah. How much revenue?

[Josh Troy]

Okay, how much revenue come in? Now let's table that for a second. You have to pick one other metric to see who your best salespeople are. What would it be?

[Justin Colby]

How many calls they made? Outbound calls they made.

[Josh Troy]

Okay, I'm not gonna say you're wrong. It's your opinion, but that's, that's productivity. But how do you know? What if nobody answered? So, so what is one other metric that shows who your best rep is? Not your most hungry rep.

[Justin Colby]

So it's not rev. So I already said revenue. I already said energy. Outbound. I mean, just conversion.

[Josh Troy]

Conversion. So every conversation I ever have with people, it's one of two Things, it's revenue or it's conversion or they say close rate usually. Right. Revenue or in close rate? Well, revenue, I can have a rep and I've had tons of sales reps that had way more revenue than the other reps, but they had three times as many calls, so. Okay, but then you say, well, that's why we look at close rate. Well, you could have the top close rate, but what if their show up rate is the worst because they suck at getting people back onto their calendar? And what if you have multiple different levels of products and they're selling the lowest tier product with really low collections and well, hey, I can manipulate close rate.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Josh Troy]

Anytime I want, you say, josh, I want the best close rate. Nothing else matters. Okay. I'm gonna smell the. I'm gonna sell the lowest package on the longest payment plan. Yeah, right. But is that really your best rep? Most people incentivize incorrectly because they don't know how to analyze this collected dollar per booked call. It takes all that into consideration because it's, you're tying a dollar amount to every call that hit your calendar. So it's, you do that by taking, you know, it's, it takes into consider show rate because it's booked call, not live call. So it takes into consideration show rate, close rate, collection rate, and you know, average sales price, basically that entire thing. So when I'm looking at this, it's, you know, efficiency. We're saying how much are you putting for a call on account? How much are you paying to put a call on a calendar? And how much is that rep taking back? If you're paying 50 bucks a call and you want to be at a forex roas, I need to take 200 bucks out of every single call. And now we could manage the return on every rep with this one individual metric. So to go back, you think I maybe forgot where we came from? Right. To go back to the question, it's regard what, you know, why customers come to us. Well, we help them dial in efficiency. How to make more money from the same spend or more money from the same team or with what you already have. That's how you actually win in sales ops. Because it's not just revenue, it's profitability. Your bottom line's the only thing that matters.

[Justin Colby]

So I was going to use the word pro when you said efficiency, I was actually going to say people want to come to you profitability, which is

[Josh Troy]

that's how it would show up as an algorithm.

[Justin Colby]

That's right. Because the efficiencies get tighter and so you're able to manage better which will create more. That's the result. Right? So I, I was leading with the result. But the reality is what you guys do at a very high level is help businesses become a lot more efficient in their sales organizations.

[Josh Troy]

100%. And so like that would be the outcome right now. What are the actual reasons they come to us? Well, their sales reps aren't performing, they're struggling recruiting sales reps and they have a really big churn rate or they don't have the right tal. Their CRM is a mess. Right. They don't have any of the right data or reporting in the CRM. They've paid thousands and thousands of dollars and they still don't have it where, where they need to be. One a really big thing. Companies will come to us. I have a database of a hundred thousand leads. Why aren't any of them buying? Well, you don't have any reactivation campaigns, right? You don't have an SDR motion, you don't have engagement scoring to be able to contact the leads at the second that you see them engaged because they just watched three of your podcasts and downloaded two things on your website. So, so all it's the whole ecosystem of converting opportunities into revenue in sdr. For those that don't know, Setter, sales development rep. So you know we sell in two industries, right? B2C or consumer services. A lot of like info product coaching companies, mastermind type brands and then B2B which is, you know, obviously B2B service companies or B2B SaaS platforms. In B2C it's setters and closers. In B2B it's SDRs and AES, sales development reps and account executives. They're interchangeable. Same thing.

[Justin Colby]

What is. So when talking B2B, what type of businesses typically are you working with? Is there industry specific? Are you agnostic? Does it not matter?

[Josh Troy]

We're agnostic especially because we have so many. Our bread and butter is outsourced sales. If somebody comes to us and they say, Josh, I just want to put this whole thing turnkey, I want to make it turnkey. I don't want to have to worry about it. I want to focus on content marketing, lead generation, fulfillment expansion. You know, they're building the team, they're building other services, whatever it might be. There's always more you could do to scale. And they say, I want this piece to be managed entirely by somebody that we trust. So think about a marketing agency. We are the same Thing but for sales. So you go to a marketing agency, they have all things marketing, media buying, graphic design, funnel building, copywriting, email marketing. It's the whole suite of marketing and they could manage it all for you. We're the same with sales and rev ops. So sales enablement, you know, recruiting, sales management, sales training. Like I said, CRM services, outsourced SDRs, outbound engines, cold email. We do all things sales. Right. In, in B2B we're so because of that we're industry agnostic. But in there's a certain, it's not an industry. There's a certain criteria we look for. So we work with SLG based businesses. That just stands for sales led growth. You grow through a sales team as opposed to E commerce. Right. They're putting a product in a cart and buying it. There's nothing for us to do there. We're not E comm. So it has to be an SLG business and we typically to justify a high performing sales team you typically are going to have something higher ticket referring to the average sales price or the ACV average contract value. So if you are growing rapidly, you're lead generation based, you, you're building a sales team and it's a high enough ticket where you can justify building a really good sales team. That is what we come in and scale.

[Justin Colby]

What, what criteria do you want to like really get involved with the business? Right. Like a lot of salespeople, high revenue, does it matter? Are you looking for businesses that have certain criterias besides the ticket price? Like do you want to come into a shop that has 150 boiler room style, you know the image of the movie boiler room or are you thinking more small and tight and create efficiencies around the. Or does it matter?

[Josh Troy]

Yeah. You know what's interesting? I don't, I don't. I normally wouldn't say this but just knowing you and what you do, this is what came to mind. I'd compare it kind of to real estate. I don't care that much to what's in place. Of course I have a buy box but I look for the upside.

[Justin Colby]

Sure.

[Josh Troy]

And the opportunity. So it might be a distressed sales team but if I know exactly what to do with that and I can clearly see the opportunity for upside, I'm taking the opportunity. More than that though, we look for growth oriented companies. They need to be, they, they need to want to grow and they want to grow rapidly. Those are our best clients.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Josh Troy]

Because if you don't want to grow like there's A bunch of businesses out there that they're flatlined year after year and we can help them. I'm not saying we can't, but it's not that exciting and we could only help so much. You're not that far from zero, right? Like it's like in again a real estate analogy. How do you increase noi, you increase revenue or you decrease expenses? You could only decrease expenses so much. So it's kind of the same. Like we can create efficiency, but you're capped if you're not growing. So we look for really high growth oriented businesses that really want to rapidly scale. And with those we have some very impressive case studies. It's all about growth rate.

[Justin Colby]

When, when should a business owner actually get out of his own way or her way?

[Josh Troy]

Right.

[Justin Colby]

When, when do they got to get out of that sales role and they have to hire or they will literally be their own ceiling?

[Josh Troy]

Well, sales specifically you're saying. Yeah, well, so it's interesting because there's, I suppose there's a lot of methodologies and philosophy that would come into play here. But typically they say do what you're good at, right? And do what the most leveraged thing is. And so you have to consider that if you're a founder and you're a sales business and you suck at sales, it's probably like your first hire literally, right? Because you're not going to do anything if you can't sell. If you're really good at sales, which by the way doesn't mean you're a great operator and it also doesn't mean you're a great sales manager, but maybe you're good at sales yourself. You might stretch that a little bit further, but at a certain point there will be a dollar per hour activity that makes more sense than you selling. Depending on the business model that, that, that would dictate, you know, when that is and when that changes.

[Justin Colby]

Do you feel like the small to medium sized business owner tends to hire out of laziness versus need? Do you feel like they're trying to just, I don't want to do this anymore so I'm going to go hire someone. And then you get in there and say, no wonder your sales team sucks. This guy shouldn't be in the seat.

[Josh Troy]

I don't. Justin. I think they hire because they're confused. I think that getting out of sales a little bit for a second because at the end of the day, right, like I am a CEO and my business is all focused on sales and rev ops. But for every entrepreneur watching This, I think that companies don't build their business in a spreadsheet. They don't build budgets. Most entrepreneurs, they don't build budgets. They aren't financially fluent. They don't look at forecasts.

[Justin Colby]

So they don't do.

[Josh Troy]

These are all things I do.

[Justin Colby]

This is why everyone go follow Troy Joshua. Like, this is the stuff. As an entrepreneur for 20 years, his skill set is my weakness. I'm great at sales. Everything else operational that you just discussed, spreadsheets and CRMs and flows and structures and procedures suck. I will make an argument.

[Josh Troy]

90.

[Justin Colby]

I have no way to prove this. I would say 90% of the actual founders of these companies likely suck at it, too.

[Josh Troy]

They do. And I'll tell you the other thing. You don't have to be the one that does it yourself. You know, you could hire an accounting firm to build a budget for a few grand for you. It's just a skill set I developed over time because I'm a little bit obsessive. And I mean, true story. I, I wanted something done by Friday, and they didn't get it done, so I had to wait till Monday, and I didn't want to wait through the weekend. So I literally. That was when I started teaching myself spreadsheets. I'm, I'm very fluent in Excel. I build all my own budgets, and I like the control I have over it. Because building a budget is not just an accounting role you have, it's strategy. You have to understand the business model and, you know, all the different assumptions of, like, how, you know, how does this grow and, and, and how many units do I need? How am I going to get like, it's, it's all the strategy that shows up for every business owner. And I'm going to circle back to your question. You said, why do people hire? You said, are they lazy? I said, no, it's because they're confused. And when you build a business in a spreadsheet, you can see how that business scales. So, for example, I build it all top down, which means you start with revenue, and then you extrapolate all the expenses and what you need to fulfill on that. When I build a budget and I'm updating these forecasts, I build it out at certain levels of revenue so I could see what the business needs at each level of scale. And it's all based on capacity models, meaning for every single position, there's a capacity that shows all a function of revenue as a percentage of revenue. Right. Or a division of revenue. So, for example, if I say based on my sales reps performing and the amount of calls that they could take, every hundred thousand in revenue, I need a new rep. Well, for a million dollars a month or a year, whatever you want to do at a million bucks, you need 10 reps. I could see exactly in the business model when that happens. Then if I'm looking at it and I say, oh, okay, wow, now I have six sales reps. Well, I probably need a manager, you know. Or you say, well, I could only manage myself sales reps until I have three. So we'll look in the budget. It shows you that's when you hire that person. My point in saying this is when companies don't have that amount of clarity on how their business scales. How does the revenue scale, how does the expenses scale, how does the org chart scale when they don't have that clarity? They just start hiring people out of typically overwhelm. Typically to fix a problem that's probably just a symptom. They start making all these random hires and now they have a bloated model that doesn't actually scale because the org chart will break at scale. That is the number one thing I see. They don't know who to hire or when to hire these people.

[Justin Colby]

And you help them that. Right. I mean, because I see, you know, my role in the entre. Like I'm not the expert as you are. That's why you're here. But I see people hire too fast and they hire with operational bloat that cripples any level of success that they're going to have.

[Josh Troy]

Yep.

[Justin Colby]

Right. Whether it's one person they think is the a player because you always higher up. And I get it. I'm not saying that that's not the right philosophy. But then you give this person a salary that is really big. And if they don't perform, by the way, this has been done by yours truly. And if they don't perform, you potentially are. I mean, like go out of business.

[Josh Troy]

Yep.

[Justin Colby]

And I literally just did this in 2024 in my tech company. Hired, the resume, three exits, big tech guy, Bay Area, whole thing. Everything said on paper. This guy's taking us to the moonshot.

[Josh Troy]

Yep.

[Justin Colby]

And it got. Because he took us left and we needed to keep going straight.

[Josh Troy]

Yeah, yeah, it's. I mean, I see that all the time. It's really hard. And I think a lot of that is role definement too. Right. And again, I know we're getting into a slightly different subject, but I'll say this and we'll bring it back. It's truly just knowing how to operate a business. And so what I recommend everybody does is you, you need, I think, people, all entrepreneurs, and it's because they, they react based on buzzwords, they react based on sound bites. They watch influencers online or business people and they hear them say this one thing and they think that's what they're supposed to do. So a lot of people hire based on titles, right? They say, oh, I need a CEO. Because that's what I heard people hire when it's like, well, what is the responsibilities that are needed? Like what are the tasks right now? So what I, what I always recommend is you have, you know, you list all the main responsibilities that are happening that are bogging you down and right next to it, right? In a run rate, right? So how long do these tasks take and how often does it happen? Every month. So essentially you land at how many hours do these things take a month? You finally. And I've done this for every single role that we've hired. I've done this for years. And I look on a piece of paper and I say, okay, wow, there's 40 hours a week of this. We need a person for sure. And then I think to myself, with these tasks, with this combination of, you know, this responsibility set, who is the type of person I need to own that? And I, and I think about the skill sets, I think about the track record, the experience. Title's the very last thing I think of. In fact, at the end of that, once I say these are the responsibilities they need to own, these are the skill sets the person needs to have. This is a track record and background I would like them to possess. Then and only then do I go into ChatGPT and say, what should I title this? Right? And, and that's why I have some, a little bit unorthodox titles in my org chart. I have a lead flow manager, right? Most people would say, well, why don't you hire a marketing manager? Or why don't you hire a head of growth? Or there's all these other titles that, you know, we've considered over time. The reason why is because I'm very clear on my model. The responsibility, it is a specific function and it gives so much clarity. And then I build a role playbook for every single role. So that clarity is what ends up actually creating profitability because it's operational velocity. At the end of the day, how

[Justin Colby]

important is giving playbooks scripts literally? I mean, you use the word playbook because you used it to every person in every Role in your org.

[Josh Troy]

It's everything.

[Justin Colby]

Like a physical playbook.

[Josh Troy]

Well, define physical. I don't print it out, but it's.

[Justin Colby]

Well, it's a Google Doc or something of them understanding exactly what is expected

[Josh Troy]

of every single one. You know, in private equity, they call it a roll charter. A roll charter.

[Justin Colby]

I guess I'm not in private equity.

[Josh Troy]

I'm not either. I. I love it. I study it. Might as well study the best people at playing the game. Right? Man. Brother. But I don't know why they call it that. It's called the roll charter. Um, and it goes over the key responsibilities, the key KPIs and outcomes that that position owns. And then you know what that kind of day to day looks like. I follow the same model. I call it a position playbook. I like it better. Role Role charters. Doesn't make sense.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Josh Troy]

At all. But doesn't matter. That's. We call it a position playbook. Every single role has one. And they're updated pretty constantly as well. And it has the KPIs, has the core outcomes, the, the core responsibilities. You almost look at them in a way as training wheels. And what I mean by that is like if you have somebody crushing the position, I'm not over here saying, hey, you missed paragraph three in the position playbook. Right. They're crushing it. But if they're not performing, if they're under KPI, they better be following it to a T. And we treat sales reps the same exact way. So, you know, which by the way, there's. We'll kind of segue back into. And I'd love to give some really advanced nuggets here for people scaling sales teams too. But you know, there's a lot of people that talk about scriptless selling. And I'm not talking about anyone specifically, by the way. I don't like to put that type of energy out there. Maybe they're amazing at what they do. I don't know. I don't care. My only point is when you look in though, any of the ones I've ever looked into that practice, scriptless selling, they say you don't need a script. It's outdated, it's not modern, blah, blah, blah. What they actually mean is know your script so well that you don't have it in front of you. And it's funny because it's like that's everyone ever. Like, nobody should ever read from a script. So when we're scaling sales teams, everyone, they have their position playbook and they have their talk track. They are following that talk track until they're above KPI. Along that journey, if they find some ways to make it their own and they find their groove and their secret sauce and their personality and it deviates from the talk track. But they've proven themselves and they're above KPI. You better believe we're not correcting that. They found what works for them. But for 99 of everybody else, that standardized talk track is going to get you better results than some unicorn strategy that can't be duplicated.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah, the outlier, the, the basketball player is a weird ass shot, but somehow is an all star. Right. You're like, how is that? It's not replicatable.

[Josh Troy]

Exactly.

[Justin Colby]

That's okay. Let's go into some advanced strategies for your own sales team.

[Josh Troy]

Yeah, I mean, pick a subject. You know, I think that, you know, there's a lot of. What, what is the audience here? Is it most general kind of business owners and entrepreneurs?

[Justin Colby]

I think so it's hard to tell. Just we have a. Yeah. I mean it's download based. Right. So you don't really know who they are. What, you know, I know I get high level CEOs at very big, you know, public companies. And then I get the guy who's like tired at work and needs to go jump into a business. Right. And everyone in between.

[Josh Troy]

All right, well, here's a couple subjects that I'm passionate about and not only passionate about. I've got a lot of requests and kind of demand for this type of subject. First of all, people are very interested in attracted to str motions, setter motions. And I think the reason why is because the role is still to this day pretty misunderstood. People don't understand the activity model.

[Justin Colby]

So what is a setter?

[Josh Troy]

So what's better? Yeah. In the sec, by the way, just so you know, we'll come back to it. The second topic, I think a lot of people are fascinated to know how we're using AI in our sales operations. We'll come back to that. So let's break it down as, you know, a function. I think this is actually even good for a lot of people to hear. We just talked about it with other roles and building the responsibilities and an activity model. What are they spending their time on? What are the results they're supposed to get in sales? And this was established a long time ago. I think Salesforce, to be honest with you, really popularized this concept. They were one of the biggest ones that fully leaned into it, which was being very specific and specialized in sales roles rather than what you would call full cycle sales. So historically most sales models were full cycle sales or full cycle front to back, which means you're dialing, you're opening opportunities, you're generating pipeline, you're closing the deals, you're doing the follow up, you're doing everything start to finish. Well, what ended up happening over the evolution of scaling sales teams is some smart people, I don't really know who again, I think salesforce popularized it, but they said, well, I don't think every activity in a sales operation has the same dollar per hour output. And so it's basically like, well, what are some of the functions that are not as leveraged and that you don't need as high of a skill level. Therefore typically you could pay less. Setters do make less than closers. And how do we divide those roles so you get more throughput of the system, more velocity, or going back to that word, more efficiency. And then you have your top closers, your top earners focus just on the most highly leveraged stuff that maximizes their skill. Now there's more benefits to doing this specializing and separating the roles. The other benefit is if you only have your closers or your account executives focused on closing activities. First of all, you can scale further with them because good talents hard to find. Yeah, you don't need to hire as often because they're spending all their time on that one thing.

[Justin Colby]

No doubt.

[Josh Troy]

The other thing is since they're not in an activity model. So again I'll define that for a second. A financial model says economics, an activity model shows capacity. So I build activity models for these positions in an activity model when they spend less of their time on these lower leverage stuff outbound in this instance. And if a closer spends more of their time on closing, their earning potential goes up.

[Justin Colby]

Seems to make sense.

[Josh Troy]

Which means that the OTE is higher on track earnings, which means you could pay them more, which means you could get better talent. I wanted to explain that concept all the way through. So that means that instead of having front to back generalist, you could have hyper specific specialists. And the main split in sales is breaking up pipeline generation and the actual sales process which is closing. So SDR sales development reps, hence the name, they're developing the opportunity, they're setters, they are doing your outbound, they are doing the dialing, they are taking an opportunity or a lead whether no matter how cool they are and they are turning that into a qualified appointment with intent with a level of interest which a closer will then take over from there and so that's the breakdown. Right. I know that was a recap, and a lot of people are familiar with this these days, but there's a lot of people that maybe didn't understand the full breakdown.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Josh Troy]

Now, closing is what all the focus is on. Name a sales trainer, anyone that you know.

[Justin Colby]

Jeremy Minor.

[Josh Troy]

Okay. You ever heard him talk about how his training's focused on setters?

[Justin Colby]

No.

[Josh Troy]

No. Name another one.

[Justin Colby]

Andy Elliot.

[Josh Troy]

Have you ever heard him talk about this?

[Justin Colby]

No.

[Josh Troy]

No. Now, by the way, I'm not saying they don't. What I'm saying is there's more money in closing than setting. So there's a higher desire from the talent pool to be a closer. So everyone naturally gravitates towards, you know, improving closing. Setting is neglected in almost every business ever. And all the resources around it, it's a different skill set. Okay. So for that reason, and it's critical, so much of your money comes from setters.

[Justin Colby]

Right?

[Josh Troy]

Right.

[Justin Colby]

Because they can't get to the closer. If the setter doesn't do good, they

[Josh Troy]

can't get to the closer. I mean, you could have inbound, book a call straight to a calendar, but a lot of your profitability comes from a set of motion. Why? Because you're generating more revenue from not new spend. Right. They're taking leads in the database or they're finding someone that didn't just opt in and they're turning it into an opportunity. So it adds a lot of profitability. But anyways, because of those reasons, there are so many setter engines that just suck or they're broken, or they don't exist. So we specialize in that. I mean, we've been doing this for a very long time. I dialed for years myself, which I think really qualifies me for that. You could read a book and become good in something. But I've done it. I lived it. I've got hung up more times than people have made calls.

[Justin Colby]

There's no world that someone should be investing in a company, an organization, or a person, a coach, a mash, if they're not doing the thing that you're looking to do. Right. It'd be foolish for anyone. So, you know, again, why we started the podcast and I'm edifying you, saying I've worked with you, you are the guy, you are everything you said. Right? And so I. I do, for sake of time, of the episode, I want to dive into how AI is going to be changing sales. How do you see AI changing sales? We all believe sales should always be human to Human. I come from that old school. Shake a hand, you'll close better belly to belly. Always better than over the phone. Well now over the phone has become huge because of COVID and all the opportunity. That. Which is a lot of opportunity, which is great. But now you layer in AI. How is AI? How do you see it affecting it in the positive and. Or in the negative when it comes to sales?

[Josh Troy]

Yeah. Well, I first like to disclose this. I'm really big on not speaking about things I'm not an expert on. Like you were just saying.

[Justin Colby]

Sure.

[Josh Troy]

So I do want to say I'm not an AI expert. I don't know all the answers. I have no idea what's going to happen in the next few years. And I'm okay with that. I just try to make, you know, good guesses and intuitive steps. What I am using AI for right now. It has, I don't care what anybody says. We've done a ton of tests. It has not replaced high quality sales reps. I actually have some friends that are AI experts, some that own very successful like AI implementation firms like large ones and that they're, they're deep into this. They believe like high ticket sales reps and sales processes that require trust will be one of the last things to get replaced by AI. I don't know. It makes sense how they explain it. It feels good for me.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Josh Troy]

Since that's a big part of what we do. But so, so that's not where we're focusing. Where we are focusing on our AI use cases in the application is in what I'm, what I refer to as a capacity multiplier. All of the things that are extremely repetitive tasks that have to be done, but you could almost like never get to it at scale. We're finding really good use cases for. And automating some of these functions that don't require a high level of intelligence. And so, no pun intended, but one of the use cases is call intelligence. Right. And we didn't invent that. Right. There's all sorts of companies out there that are call intelligence tools that you use for call analysis. And essentially it uses data and AI to analyze all transcripts and every single call to turn qualitative insights into quantitative insights. That is massive for me as a sales operator and been doing this for as long as I have. Because no matter how good you are, you're only ever managing based on a sample size. Because if you're a sales manager and you have 10 sales reps that all take eight sales calls every day, that's 80 sales calls a day that are hour long each. How does a sales manager with eight hours in a day listen to all those? They never will. Nobody ever will. Yeah, but now you're missing information because it's just a sample size. What AI has done for us in call analysis, we review 100 of every single call ever had and we give feedback and score a hundred percent of every call.

[Justin Colby]

That is also build your AI out to say, this is what I'm looking for. This would be a good call and you can build it over time. You might take 10, 20 hours to build your own chat, GBT or whatever you might be using for this, but you build it the way that you want it. So they are looking for very specific things and they're finding the inefficiencies or efficiencies in the call itself and giving you a score based around the prompt that you said this is what you're looking for.

[Josh Troy]

Exactly. And so you know, this is brilliant. Think about a CRM. So I, I compared a lot to a CRM. Like the CRM is not the valuable thing. That's like the platform, the, the structure, it's the configuration that's custom to your business that drives the results. Right. Same with call intelligence. Like there's all these softwares out there. I cannot tell you how many people I know that have paid a lot of money for these softwares. And then they churned after a few months because they're like, I didn't get the value. We have a custom configuration, all scoring models. There's three, actually, there's four. Excuse me, main scorecards that we use for our clients. We have a sales scorecard, which is exactly how it sounds. How good is their sales process according to our actual playbooks? So it's like qualitative how good they sell. The second is technical compliance, meaning it's, it's. Are they hitting these individual steps? It's not necessarily how well they did something like what was the quality of their discovery process? It's, did they ask this question? Did they say the call's recorded? Did they set a follow up within 48 hours? It gives us insights into process breakdowns. Right. The third is compliance, like regulatory compliance, whether that be FTC or SEC or you have some other regulatory body. Um, it's funny, I had a call with an attorney the other day and she goes, well, I don't know if you guys would be able to help me because it would take me a year just to teach you about the compliance in this industry. And I thought to myself, well, a week, but yeah, right. And I'm thinking, I didn't say that. I'm thinking this because with the AI, we just upload it and train it on whatever these compliance assets are and it could find it in 100% of every single call. Really important. Especially if you're a heavily regulated business.

[Justin Colby]

Sure.

[Josh Troy]

The fourth is product knowledge, which is just basically the brand reputation piece. Are you on brand? Are you representing the product correctly? Do you know your stuff? Those are the four scorecards we build within this. We take all of that call data and we turn it into metrics. Like this sales rep is a 7 out of 10 for the week on this category. Right. The insights that gives us. And to be able to translate it back to marketing is. It has completely changed the game from what you've ever been able to do in the past. I'll give you one example. Every marketing team typically wants to know will give us the marketing insights. And you have to have a strong feedback loop because almost everything you want to know is on the call.

[Justin Colby]

Sure.

[Josh Troy]

Well, the hard part is since you're not managing through a hundred percent of the calls, you how do you know if there's statistical significance? So what typically happens is sales drop a week. And marketing says, well, how many times did we get these objections? And the manager's like, I mean, I've heard it on a few calls. I, I don't know if that's like the causality. I don't know if that's the direct impact. But I'll listen to more calls. You don't really know for sure with this in the configuration, we could say out of the last 30 calls, 19 people had this objection. And that is so powerful because it gives you certainty and actual causality. We build this for our clients.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Josh Troy]

Because we build it in our engagements,

[Justin Colby]

the nuance of their business and whatever. Because without the nuance, you can't build it.

[Josh Troy]

We need the nuance. And then we have our frameworks because a lot of them, like, they don't even have a process. So we put our process in place and then we build scorecards against it. But we have extraction processes to like learn all the things important to them to build it. That's one use case. A second really good use case is it is in the appointment setting realm and what you'd call like reactivation campaigns. So we take their database, we actually, we call it the conversion engine. We take all of the leads that are in their CRM or their database and we can build advanced Scoring models that basically it's like there's a point system. Let's say that when you get 15 points, you're, you get outreach. Okay, you get 15 points to get outreach. Well, you get a few points every time you open an email. If you register a webinar, maybe you get five points. As soon as they hit that, you know, now you have an engaged lead. Yeah, you could. So if you have a hundred thousand leads in your database, you can't just dial. It will. It will not make economic sense to just hire a ton of setters to dial them because you don't know who's actually interested. This allows you to be efficient and intentional and precise on who to reach out at the exact time they're engaged. Now that part's not new. With AI, that's just, you know, technology in these CRMs that have progressed over years. What's really cool now is we can build messaging and languaging agents that they're, they're per. It's hyper personalization based on these engagement models and scoring. So for example, we, somebody hits that point system again, let's just assume they open a few emails, they registered for a webinar and they downloaded a leap or they watched a podcast. They listened to a podcast. Right. And you have that all synced up in the CRM. Well, you could get a message instantly when they hit that threshold. They say, hey, Justin, how's it going? This is Josh. Yeah, I was just looking at your file and I noticed that you just saw our wed. Our webinar last Tuesday. And then you were watching some of our content, including the new episode on the podcast yesterday. It looks like you're potentially interested in some help with revops. Were you looking for something specific? It's like, bam. You can't, you couldn't do that in the past, right? You didn't have that level of personalization. And then you could even have, you know, conversational agents going back and forth until it makes sense for the human to ultimately take that over.

[Justin Colby]

God, if I was selling high ticket, I'd hire you right now.

[Josh Troy]

This is so good.

[Justin Colby]

I mean, everything you were talking about, what your company does and by the way, what's the website for your company, the wfsgroup.com?

[Josh Troy]

we don't do really any business through our website. You can't go through there and book a call. Yeah, well, you know why? Because we're, we're actually redoing our website right now. But we've, we're kind of a white labeled agency as you know we have so many clients we do outsource sales for.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Josh Troy]

So all of our lead gen is through the brands we're doing sales for. That's how we scale our business. But Troy, Troy Joshua on Instagram, I'm very responsive there. If it's, if it's something that deserves a response.

[Justin Colby]

It is. Guys, go reach out to him right now. I know all of us in business, I mean sales cures. All right, we, and we all need to be better. So brother, I appreciate you coming by. This has been phenomenal. You can tell this guy knows a couple things about sales and operations. Troy Joshua, he is Josh. Troy, I'm Justin Colby. This has been the entrepreneur DNA. If this made sense to you, share this with at least two of your friends. Talk to you on the next episode. Peace.

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[Justin Colby]

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[Josh Troy]

If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.