Tom Edwards (3:38)

I think it's interesting, you know, you mention Apple there and I know from your kind of own origin story, obviously your studies at Chelsea College of Arts and so on, there are all these different factors that have shaped the instincts that you have and the way that you seek to do practice. What was the sort of the mix of skills? Because let's take Apple as an example, clearly that's influenced your kind of practical design thinking. But I know you were thinking back to the kind of board games you used to play with your dad when you were growing up. And also obviously you're then more sort of formal academic training. How does that mix come together to end up with Misfits?

Alexander Neumann (4:11)

Well, it's quite funny because first of all I want to be clear that I'm by no means like a die hard board gamer. I think that's kind of that label is like added on to me as soon as I've developed this game. But I very much just kind of walked into this space as a graphic designer and thought what can I do to kind of ruffle some feathers a little bit? Design is not really taken seriously within this space. But I just find it really interesting to put something that's traditionally in like a lower culture and kind of deemed as something that's more just like pedestrian and put it more in a graphic design or like designer light and something that could be actually like beautiful on your coffee table and could be its own set piece, you know, as much as like a really nice National Geographic book. So to that end in terms of skill sets I think it has been kind of a unique path to getting to board games. Certainly this is not at all what I sort of anticipated in my life. Life for me, fundamentally it was just a confluence of that graphic design skills, that kind of ability and that background with my dad to be able to. To play these games but play them in a way that was accessible and approachable. Like I remember very fondly, my dad would take a lot of time and a lot of patience for me to explain a game. A lot of our games were in German as well. My dad is German. And so it was. It was just very helpful to have that ability to have someone that I don't know if you've ever played bor as well, especially more complicated ones. But to have to learn all the rules and to actually play the game sometimes is more complicated than just kind of get it going. So just having some sort of role model there that was able to. To have that patience, I think that really sort of imbued in ensuring that this project was very approachable and very accessible. And it was something that could be easily taught from someone that was as young as maybe five years old, as old as maybe 19. And I've certainly seen that in that respect.

Tom Edwards (6:04)

I like, I like that, Alexander. And I think what's nice is you've identified one of what seems to be one of the great strengths of the. Of the game, which is that it relies on intuition and actually there isn't the great instruction manual and people can just pile in. And that's the great quality, I guess, right, with a game is that, yeah, people look and they say, oh, let me have a go. And it's got the let me have a go ability of a game that's been around for decades maybe.

Alexander Neumann (6:29)

Yeah. And that's the other beautiful thing I find about it as well is that I think also a hallmark of a great game is a game that. That individuals can or players can take ownership on. So I don't know about you, but when I play Uno with my. My family, I absolutely am sure that we play the wrong rules or like the way that we go about it is like completely the most butchered version of the game. But we still enjoy it. Right. And so I've seen now so many of our customers, they've now inherited like all sets of like, new blocks into their set, or they've like, come up with like strange, wild rules that I've never come up with. There's something really great about like, like almost a classic game kind of has that Billy it's just not only is it, you know, so that just let's get cracking on with it, but also just like we can take ownership with it and just also like I just felt like there's no real need to have a rule book. I mean the rules fit on the backpack thing there's about seven rules and that's all you really need. Why overcomplicate this more than you need to? Especially so much like, I don't know, reading like tech manuals or you know, if you even go to like IKEA manual. Like some of those things, like they seem very simple but then it's like go to appendix A to flip to C and whatever and it's like I don't have the time for that. I don't have the patience.

Tom Edwards (7:51)

Exactly. If it's so intuitive, why am I being driven to distraction? And I think there's obviously something wonderful and this is where maybe there's a degree of serendipity, Alexander, which is that there has been this clear shift, I think especially from parents again to get kids playing. And this is, it's sort of held up as a bit of a European tradition, you know, with wooden toys and this kind of thing. But to get away from screens obviously, but also to do stuff that's physical, that is about hands. These things are beautifully crafted from beach. I think I'm right in saying they feel nice in the hands. It's kind of, there's a natural quality to playing with stuff that's made of these materials and that involves the kind of cognitive and spatial skills that make you, I guess, a good player, whatever that is in Misfits, which is really good in it. And that's, it's a good moment right when we're all being exhausted by the white noise of the digital realm. To get away from that and get back into something physical.

Alexander Neumann (8:41)

That's why I find. And it's also beautiful because I find that, you know, despite language barriers or ages, you know, across generations as well, like there's a real adaptability of the game and that individuals are just, there's an innate and knack to want to have that play. I mean I remember for example at a trade show we had a nine year old against three or forty somethings. Of course the forty somethings were very, very smug and assumed that they would win. And of course this girl comes out of nowhere, absolutely smokes them. And it's just, it's kind of that beautiful moment where it's. Somebody thought that was unlikeliest to have a go at this feels welcomed and feels like they have a shot at this as well. And I feel like a lot of digital interfaces and products that are out there are very much like, there's almost an inherent barrier if you don't have the currency or the sort of literacy to understand it all, it's just very like confounding for some individuals. Whereas there's just such immediacy with the game, I think, and just that breadth of dimension by it being just such an accessible product.

Tom Edwards (9:49)

Let me ask you about a challenge that I think a lot of the entrepreneurs we've spoken to on this program, Alexander, have run into, which is if you have a product that maybe surpasses your expectations in terms of how it performs, it's popular, you end up with a big wait list, but stuff is kind of handcrafted and you've got supply chain issues with materials. How do you deal with that? Because I guess it's the problem that almost every entrepreneur would like to have, which is like, wow, can we meet? Can we meet this demand? But how do you do it? Because you're selling in different continents, but even where you have a success story, like here in the uk, you have a brand like Oliver Burn. I start selling it, but then they immediately sell out and they say, wow, can you get us more? How do you. I don't know. You've got to keep pace, but you don't want to run before you can walk. You've got to keep an eye on quality. What are those challenges? Like?

Alexander Neumann (10:29)

I mean, it's. It's pretty nuts, I'm not gonna lie. I mean, you know, as a, as a designer, did I think I would be, you know, overseeing quality control inspections or like freight forwarding or, you know, look at like what this rate is versus, like, you know, all the. Not to bore you, but like all the inco terms like fob, X works, whatever, like these are things that are as. As much as they are English as it is to read Mandarin to me, you know, like, especially coming from graphic design background, but I just take it more from an approach of being more of a problem solver. I mean, fundamentally being a graphic designer is that. And so for me, it's like, okay, yes, I'm not making a logo, yes, I'm not building a brand, but I'm doing kind of the similar things. Like I'm trying to figure out how to get goods from A to B. And so there's efficient ways going about it, there's simple ways about it, there's cheaper ways of going about it. And so it's just. Just using that similar set of problem solving skills, I think. Yes. I'm also very, very lucky, of course, to be in the position where we have products that just people just can't stop get their hands on. But I also think as well with this game, it's inherent with it is almost a bit of a inbuilt referral. Of course, you have to include other people around the table in order for them to play. And then it's just a natural sort of extension. It's like, oh, I've enjoyed this experience. I would like a copy for myself, or I like to have this as a gift. So I feel if you make a good enough product, it doesn't really matter so much about the troubles, because those are like some of the highlights or the problems that you might foresee because they're a lot more manageable than actually just ensuring that someone gets it. I think being very tuned to what your customers are after, having a good product like, those things will do far more than any sort of other challenges that sort of lie ahead. Of course, it's very stressful. And of course, you know, dealing with these things are not necessarily within my wheelhouse. But I also think just having that assuredness and confidence with yourself does so much more than anything else.

Tom Edwards (12:31)

What about looking forward then, Alexander? How? Because presumably once you have a product like this that works, there'll be plenty of people saying, oh, could you do a travel version and a large version? And they'll start to come up with their own ideas for new product lines before you're even, you know, finished getting this game out into the world. What do the next steps look like? Obviously, I can imagine you must also have had conversations with people who say, look, we love the product. You know, can we help you to grow or expand? How do you make sense of this next phase of development for the business?

Alexander Neumann (13:00)

Yeah, I mean, it's funny you say that because hopefully I don't get in trouble by saying this, but we had a conversation with the buyer at Nordstrom, and they're like, we need like a travel version. So I'm like, okay, just calm down. We can have a conversation in January if you like. But I mean, again, like, not something I would ever envision for myself. I think, you know, focus is really important in that and. And not getting too led astray. Obviously, if they're a little bit more tantalizing offers, like, sure, I might entertain a little bit more. I think for me, you know, our game, I want to imbue with a sense of value. And it's not just like another project that is out there. I mean, we have this charity auction initiative to support LGBT and, and mental health causes. I think that's just something that's really important to put out into this world. That a board game can in fact be an object for change or at least have some sort of positive impact than just simply, you know, providing just a little bit of joy and delight into people's lives. So I think that is something that I definitely want to see into the future. Obviously, you know, we look to more, you know, established retailers, national retailers. I know there's a number of conversations that are had or to be had very soon in regards to those. And I think that intuition of like thinking of what is actually a really good offer versus someone kind of taking advantage of this situation. I've had quite frankly a number of individuals that say that they want to help, but really it's just kind of a means for them to kind of get a bit of a slice of the pie. So you have to be very, very protective of your IP in that way. But I think just as long as if the customers keep on getting their units, being happy, I see world of opportunity ahead of me and I feel very fortunate in that respect.

Tom Edwards (14:48)

That was Alexander Neumann, the creator and founder of Misfit. You can find out more and secure a gift that delivers hour upon hour of fine motor skill building screen free haptic delight by heading to Misfits. You're listening to the entrepreneurs friends of the show. Mark Rushmore and Giv Safavi are the co founders of Suri, an innovative toothbrush and personal care brand that regular listeners will remember, I trust, from their previous appearances on the program. They popped by Midori house for a pre Christmas catch up about the opportunity and challenge in global growth and expansion into new products. Mark began by telling me about some of those challenges they face as they scale the company.

Mark Rushmore (15:40)

The challenges in some ways remain. How do we get more brushes to more people, more effectively, more efficiently? But then there's also a lot of new challenges. When we first met, it was Guyv and I and maybe one other person. In August 23rd, I think we were six people and now we're 36 people. We have some people in Hong Kong and we also have the rest in London. So actually how you create the right processes to deliver things at scale and especially when Kevin and I can't be involved in every single decision anymore, although we'd love to, I think we try.

Giv Safavi (16:16)

To be we try to and we get pushed out of the room.

Mark Rushmore (16:18)

Yeah, it's an ever evolving beast.

Tom Edwards (16:21)

We'll get to that point. We were just chatting actually, before we started taping, and you were saying about how you like going to work. Is that actually one of the kind of secrets? If there are secrets other than, you know, hard work, great products, good people, it's one of the secrets reminding yourself that why you're doing it. And actually, you like working with Mark, you like working with the team and you're passionate about the project and the product, right?

Giv Safavi (16:40)

Completely. Genuinely, I love coming to work and Mark does too. I mean, we have a part work from home park, come to the office three days a week, but we're in the office as many days as possible, I find. And the thing is, I say that now like, oh, yeah, it makes sense. We're co founders, we love our company. But I never liked going to work my whole life. I'm now 42 years old. And yeah, I think it has to do with the fact that we are doing something different. And we have a team of brilliant people who are on that journey with us and pushing the journey forward. And we have at the core of what we're doing a strong sense of purpose. And I think when you combine those ingredients together with people who are really willing to take something and move it forward in a different way, you know, at the core of it, we are electric toothbrush company and oral care company. But if you were to look at our marketing materials, you wouldn't think, think that's what we're selling and that's what makes it exciting, you know, that we are doing something different and with real purpose. You know, now we are three years in and we've released three sustainability reports. We feel proud to be the only electric toothbrush company that has B Corp on it as well. So, yeah, I love coming to work, as cheesy as it sounds, and I like to think that of our 36 employees, majority of them do too, because there's a strong sense of purpose and differentiation.

Tom Edwards (17:57)

Well, we'll talk a bit more about that. And I'm interested in once you hit a certain kind of scale and impact, what that burgeoning expectation from the outside means. But we'll come back to that in a minute. But you mentioned product. Look, Siri Brush 2.0. Just quickly, Mark, talk to us a little bit about the innovations, because I think one of the smart things that you guys do is push the boundaries, make those iterative changes kind of before the consumer knows they need them or want them, if that makes any sense. So talk to us a bit about that thing of that. That I guess it's a restlessness and an eagerness to constantly improve and iterate. The 2.0 brush is the embodiment of that mindset, I guess.

Mark Rushmore (18:38)

Exactly. If we take it back a second. For those who don't know the Siri 1.0, we looked at the whole category and saw that billions of brushes are thrown away every year and end up in landfills and oceans, which is a huge sustainability issue. So we wanted to see whether we could improve that from a materials perspective and from a process perspective. So we offer things like pre recycling. We use plant based materials. Aluminum in the handle and no plastic in the packaging. But then we also did this real basic business 101 thing of just asking people, you know, do you use Bluetooth? Do you love that gunk on the bottom of your brush? How often do you have to charge your battery? And we took all those insights and we put them into Siri 1.0 and people loved it. And it's growing really quickly on Trustpilot now we have almost 14,000 reviews at a 4.7 rating, but we don't stop listening. And I think where we think that companies sometimes lose their way is when they stop listening to consumers and start just thinking about revenue and profit and making decisions based on those reasons. And so in those 14,000 reviews, people have said to us, you know, I love your brush, but I would love it if the UV light can work independently. I love the brush, but you know, I'm a dentist and I really want to recommend using a pressure sensor. And these are two of several. Eve can probably share more of the new features, but we've incorporated them into the product and really elevated that Siri 1.0 into 2.0. And the reception has been phenomenal. I mean, actually almost, if I'm honest, too good. We've sold well ahead of forecast and we are now struggling to even create enough for the demand.

Tom Edwards (20:09)

Well, I guess, look, struggling to meet this voracious demand giv. And this point about the difference. Well, is there a difference? Actually, when expectations change, you get a product that goes from something that's an incredible novelty people are excited about, then something that becomes kind of an essential for them. I imagine your users are quite evangelical about the product. Does that change your approach or does it just mean you actually have to double down on those same foundational values you're talking about?

Mark Rushmore (20:35)

Double down.

Giv Safavi (20:35)

And so as Mark mentioned, I like to Think we've systematized listening to our customers. So we have on our Slack feedback, all of the trustpilot reviews come in. Nobody sees it because it's there. So we dissect the positive ones, the negative ones, and then they go into the product team to assess them. Not everything we can do, but I would say when we launched Turi 1.0, because of hardware, it's very hard to ship changes. It's not like software where you can constantly release new things. But we are. There are things on the insides that are changing slightly. We're making certain things better buttons in different ways. With Surrey 2.0, we really hit a point where we realized we had some really big stuff that we could change that we wanted to change. As Mark mentioned, we have a pressure sensor, we have a stronger motor, we have an airplane mode. A few other features that.

Tom Edwards (21:22)

Can I say, the airplane mode's my personal favorite. Is it of the additions?

Mark Rushmore (21:26)

Yeah.

Tom Edwards (21:26)

Well, I didn't realize that occasionally I would sort of send my sponge bag that would start working its way across the security tray, like in an exact. People looking at me funny. It's clever. It's clever.

Giv Safavi (21:36)

I love your case, and I love it when I'm traveling long distance, but if I'm going to the gym, maybe I don't want to take your case. And, you know, I'd love a cap and some way that I could just put it in my beautiful wash bag. That's nice and small. What can I do? Your brush is very small, but the case is a little bit bigger, obviously. And so that's where we said, well, yeah, we just. We only have one button. And so I guess that is a limitation. Right. We've tried to stay to certain constraints of we don't want to have 10 buttons and 10 lights. And so that. That's been a bit of a challenge. But that is the magic. I would say that how do you take all these sort of requests and then narrow them down into the ones that make the most sense to ship in another build? And one of the things that a lot of people were surprised by was that we didn't change the shape of our brush or the colors. And that was intentional because we thought, you know, we've only been around for a short period of time. We are making improvements to our brush, and we feel there's a need to denote a 2.0. It's a different model now, but nobody's ever given us feedback on the shape or the design of the brush, so why should we just, you Know, add a stripe on it or something else. You know, they're both great products. One has some better features, but yeah, very much so. That was intentional.

Mark Rushmore (22:47)

Can I just add, you know, you talked about, you know, some of our customers being evangelical. Big shout out to one of our customers called Ken, who is one of Monocle Radio's biggest fans, has listened to every episode for the last.

Tom Edwards (22:59)

Sounds like a man of impeccably good taste.

Mark Rushmore (23:00)

14 years.

Alexander Neumann (23:01)

Yeah.

Mark Rushmore (23:02)

Well, he's based in Kyoto and he sent us a cold email saying, you know, I'm on my honeymoon in London, but I heard your story on Monocle Radio. I'm a huge fan. I'd love to come and meet with you and share, you know, my insights and thoughts. So he came into our office and we've developed this beautiful friendship. Also this business relationship where, you know, he's explaining why he believes, you know, that same ethos that Suri brings is really important. But, but beyond that, he actually talked about a very personal story to him around his grandmother and how her oral health deteriorated and how he sort of sees oral health as a gateway to whole body health and therefore it was a very personal mission to him. And that connection for us between the people who use our products and how much value they put on health makes it even more important for us to deliver our purpose in improving oral health, but also doing it in a sustainable, beautiful way.

Tom Edwards (23:59)

And that's interesting. And it strikes me that the sort of the broader narrative or discourse around health and well being, even in the relatively short lifespan, we're talking only, you know, a few, a few short years. Keeb is catching up with where you guys kind of were at the beginning. That must be quite helpful for you, I guess, in a way and again offers potentially other interesting routes to explore as the brand grows and continues going forward completely.

Giv Safavi (24:22)

Yes, I'll talk about future innovation a bit, but I would say that yeah, in the beginning we, we knew we wanted to be different and one of the angles was how could we portray our company as a well being company. Taking care of your mouth, oral care, it is one of the fundamental steps. There's a lot of connections between good oral health and good body health. And heart attacks are related to your oral health as well. And so we wanted to do it in a way that still was backed by clinical data like most of the established oral care brands, but we didn't have to do it with white lab coats and in a very sterile way. How could we do it in a much more lifestyle and, well, being focused way and I guess as a brand that SURI stands for Sustainable rituals. Brushing your teeth is one of the fundamental rituals we've had since, you know, childhood. We do it twice a day, two minutes in the morning, two minutes in the evening. Last thing, it's a moment of meditation that we take for granted. And so we see a lot of things around there. In the wellbeing space, we recently launched a toothpaste. We're looking at going around that area, I wouldn't say too far and too wide. What's part of our success, we like to think is the focused aspect we've had on product innovation where we've really stayed. We've proved ourselves in the toothbrush category rather than going very wide and diluting our efforts because obviously we're a small team. If we were doing a million things, they might not be as good as if we did four things really well.

Tom Edwards (25:39)

Keith, you already sort of hinted and mentioned a couple of things in terms of looking forwards, what you what's most exciting, what's coming up, what are some things that whether people are devotees or maybe there'll be new converts today, what should they be getting excited about?

Giv Safavi (25:51)

I mean right now we're about to go into big sales period. So that's always exciting. We like to think our toothbrush makes a great gift for everybody. In terms of products. We recently launched a new toothpaste. It is a non fluoride toothpaste which Fluoride is the holy grail for many dentists. But there's a new ingredient called nano hydroxyapatite. It's a bit of a mouthful, nano hp. It's a modification of something people have used before called hydroxyapatite. But the nano part makes it very special. We're one of the only, I believe still the only toothpaste that registered in the UK to sell it because it has a nano material, it requires six months pre registration. But what makes this ingredient so special is it was originally invented by NASA for astronauts because in space there's a lot of tooth and bone decay, it happens at an accelerating pace and this ingredient coats your teeth in a way. It's made out of a similar material as your enamel and it coats it. So it's very effective against cavities. At the same time there's a movement towards a more well being approach where fluoride is from the chloride family. It's the same ingredients used to clean floor as well as kill all bacteria in sight. And there's a lot of good bacteria in your mouth and so the beauty of this ingredient is that it doesn't kill all the healthy bacteria in your mouth, but it just protects your teeth. And so there's a huge movement towards keeping good bacteria in your mouth and regulating good bacteria with your stomach bacteria. And so how that is part of a much bigger cycle of well being that people are focusing on. So we are the first nano HP toothpaste to be in the uk. It's been launched in the US and it's growing like wildfire and so we think people will like that. And there's more innovation and flavors coming for sure, as well as different formats soon, so that's exciting.

Tom Edwards (27:26)

So it's good for, what is it, the whole biome. But then, as I understand it, you can have teeth like an astronaut. It's basically better than an astronaut. Mark, what about yourself? What are you most excited about as we throw things forward?

Mark Rushmore (27:40)

I'm truly just. I love being on the journey. I think I had a company before this and I was so fixated on, on the end goal that I probably wasn't as present. That's not to say every moment's enjoyable. You know, we try and enjoy ourselves but, you know, we have challenges and, you know, we both have young families and so it is difficult to do this. But as much as possible, by trying to stay present, we're enjoying the journey. And that journey looks to be really more exciting next year as we launch in some other new products in new channels and new retailers and in new geographies. So we're inundated with messages from around the world with people who care about performance, design and sustainability and would love Surrey to be part of their market. So we're evaluating those opportunities, which for me is really exciting because a bit like, like, you know, Monacle has this global outlook, you know, our long term ambition is to be a brand that can be enjoyed and loved and used by anyone, anywhere.

Tom Edwards (28:34)

That was Mark Rushmore and Giv Safavi, the co founders of Siri. And you can find out more and add what I guarantee will win you acclaim as the perfect stocking filler by heading to trysuri.com. And that's all for this episode of the Entrepreneurs. We'll be back at the same time next week. The program's produced by Laura Kramer with audio editing by Jack Jewers. Listen again and find out more about the show@monacle.com and whilst you're there, why not pick up another perfect gift for that special someone and get them a subscription to Monocle Magazine. All the details on the website. If you want to get in touch with the entrepreneurs program, do email Laura. She's on LRK@monacle.com I'm Tom Edwards. Goodbye and thanks for listening to the entrepreneurs, bringing you this special episode from our studios at duvostrasse90 in Seyfeld in Zurich.