B (5:58)

And yet you did it, which is interesting for someone who's avowedly doesn't enjoy that. And I think the other thing which is probably worth interrogating in a bit more detail is the state of that business. And you mentioned that these guys were saying, look, you know, maybe the business closes its doors and that your business was responsible for so much of their growth. Just take a step back and tell us a little bit about the state of that ceramics industry. In this market, obviously storied, incredible history, but incredibly reduced and diminished. Not completely denuded, but. Well, no, it is. I mean, it's a landscape that's really tough. So not only were you taking on another business, but you were entering a geographic as well as a sector marketplace with so many attendant problems. Why not just walk away? You must be crazy.

A (6:41)

Yes, well, I did seriously think about walking away, actually. You know, I did think, this is not my fight to be had. Why do I have to be the person to step up? Surely someone else will step up. And I sort of was waiting for someone else to step up. And then eventually I looked around, I'm like, oh, fuck. No one else is gonna step up. It's gonna have to be me. And I care so much about the people in Stoke on Trent and the factory that I work with in particular. So Paul and Geoff, who I just love and adore, they're just two of the kindest, funniest, wonderfulest human being I've worked with. And then the team that they've built around them is just, you know, they're really special human beings and I couldn't sort of stand by and sort of let it fall apart. And Stoke on Trent is a hard city to love. You know, it is not an attractive city. It is grey, it is miserable. I can leave London and it'll be sunny and shiny and I will get up to Stoke and it will be grey. It's six towns rather than one central town. So it's very spread out. There's not a lot of, you know, it's a really good example of town planning done badly. Like there aren't really parks and communal spaces in a shared centre. You know, the food options. There's not a great thriving food industry. A lot of the buildings are pretty ugly, there's a lot of boarded up shops. You know, the industry, Stoke was really built on coal and ceramics and both of those industries have been completely decimated over the last 40 years. And I don't know what the exact statistics would be for ceramics production, but I did hear the statistic that, you know, say 15 years ago or even 20 years ago, there were 30,000 jobs in ceramics and now there's 3,000. And I wouldn't die on a post for that exact figure. But certainly the gist of it is true. There's only a handful of people still manufacturing ceramics in Stoke on Trent. And that's something that I think about a lot now. And I really was hesitant about taking on the business is I can take on this business and I can hire people and I can train them and I can invest in machinery and I can invest in systems and processes, but I also, I also need a supporting infrastructure around me. So we buy clay from local suppliers, we have glazes that we buy from other glaze companies. You know, we need people to service and repair our kilns, we need people to provide the kiln furniture. And I need all of that infrastructure around me as well. And the reason it all existed in Stoke is because we all had that shared infrastructure. So even when someone like Johnson's, who's the biggest tile manufacturer in the uk, who ceased production in the UK last year, and they believe it's no longer sustainable to manufacture in the uk, even when they go down, they're not a direct competitor of mine in any stretch of the imagination. They would be producing 100 square metres a week, whereas we do 10 square metres a week or something. But I did worry about the impact that has on my supporting infrastructure.

B (9:10)

Well, tell me a bit about that because I know that you're. And as you said with the caveat, maybe those figures, they give you the general direction of travel. It's clearly a challenge. But you remain optimistic despite this kind of sea change that's happened in the sector. Is that because the business more broadly, not just your business, but these corollary businesses, need to embrace the idea of not doing volume and not being about mass production, but about being specialized and being premium and being unafraid, of saying, look, we can be small but we will be the best. Is that the part of the kind of mindset shift which will drive the survival of not just your businesses and these others you've mentioned, but this whole sector in this part of the world?

A (9:49)

I have seen that in my own very real experience. And just generally across, over the last 17 years of running Valinaum, there has just been an increasing polarisation between cheap mass produced volume, usually made in the Far east, and expensive handmade crafted. And there's nothing in between. So even. And it's from things like brass components to lighting to our glaze suppliers and our bases. So that. And I think there was a point probably about 10 years ago where I had to make a decision. I think when I started Ballinaim, I was quite. I wanted to be a retail company, I wanted to be accessible. I've never wanted. I knew that we would be expensive because I liked making things by hand, but I never wanted to be exclusive. I never wanted anyone to feel uncomfortable about coming in and buying from us. Like, if you want to save up and buy tile, yes, it'll be expensive, but we will treat you exactly the same as we would treat, you know, a member of the royal family. It makes no difference to us. But there was a point it became pretty apparent that if I wanted to stay in being a retail focused company, it then becomes about volume and price and customer acquisition. It's how much cost to get that customer and how much money can you make from them? How many different ways can you get to buy from you? And then you have to work with manufacturers with a huge amount of waste which becomes landfill and you hold stock. And I remember just looking at that and, you know, this is my job. Like, you know, certainly when I was doing Ballet Name, all I do is go to manufacturers, see manufacturers and see how things were made. And I've seen big manufacturing and I've seen small handcrafted manufacturing. And whilst I can appreciate the engineering and the intellectual challenge that's involved in large scale manufacturing. I personally can't be involved in it. I can't put my time and energy in it. I don't believe in the soul of it. I don't believe in the consequences of it. You know, I do think there's really serious consequences to landfill and waste that consumers are not paying for and those manufacturers are not paying for. So if I have to pick a side, I pick the side of small manufacturing. But it does mean I've now got, you know, people think Ball and Aim is an incredibly expensive brand. I mean, in truth, we're not. So, you know, I now know, because I own the manufacturing and the retail, I know exactly how much every single person is paid and how much every single component cost. And I can tell you that Phoenix last year lost £100,000. I can tell you that Balliname runs a pretty lean shop and we made about a 5% profit last year. So when people look at the cost of our product, they say, gosh, that's expensive. The truth is that is how much that product should cost to be made. The team in Stoke are sort of paid, you know, minimum wage or minimum wage to plus 20%, so no one's being paid fat salaries, you know, and we run a very lean team in Stoke on Trent and then equally in Ballinaum, you know, we have a small studio showroom in Hampstead, you know, which cost us £40,000 a year. If I was on the Pimlico Road, that same space would cost me £120,000. You know, we do not spend lots of money on marketing and advertising. We're very system and streamlined in the way that we operate and that's how much it should cost.

B (12:36)

Things cost. Well, I was going to ask you about, you know, because you mentioned the attitude of your consumers and your customers. Has it got a little bit easier not to do what you do, but to have those conversations? Because now the consumers preoccupations, their concerns, their interests, their values. Are they catching up with the values that you've described, your own personal ones in terms of. They want to know that something is sustainable. They're not going to ask you. They just expect that if you're a brand, they like you're going to look after your staff and do your CSR properly. Do you think that that discourse has caught up with where you wanted to be? Almost. If you see what I mean.

A (13:10)

I mean, I wish it was true. I don't think so. I think the decision making Are we getting there even? No, I would say the decision. This is what I think. This is my current working theory. So maybe ask me in a year and I'll tell you if it's different. But my current working theory with people who buy design led products and luxury design, I think the first question is, do you love it? Then the second question is, can you afford it? And then the third question or the third thing is, oh, is it made well? Is there craftsmanship? Is there a nice story around it that then validates and makes the previous two decisions much more enriched? But I think ultimately people will make the decision to purchase something because they love the design and then they can or cannot afford it. So.

B (13:52)

Well, that's interesting.

A (13:52)

I would like people to, in a.

B (13:54)

Way, I'm just trying to think about, you know, looking at this through the monocle lens. That's an okay hierarchy.

A (13:58)

Yeah.

B (13:59)

Have beautiful things. I don't want to bastardize that William Morris quote about things, you know, things that have utility or beauty, affordability, however, that could be a premium super luxury item or a more of an entry level product, but it's still got to be affordable. And then you make the consideration about those other attendant values. Just on that last point though, you've kind of, I was gonna say painted yourself into a corner. You've, you've whatever, whatever the expression be, you've tiled yourself into a corner where you're now sort of a bit of a custodian of some of these values and someone who's very tapped into this, the heritage of this scene in this part of the world. You seem to kind of wear that quite lightly. But are you okay with that? You know, as you said, you didn't even really, it seems you didn't quite know what you were getting into and now you are bearing these other responsibilities. Is that, is that fine? Sarah, how's it true?

A (14:46)

That's the question for my therapist, really. Let's be honest. I mean, I just love factories. I love them. I've always loved them. My parents had owned a roller shutter manufacturing when I was growing up. And maybe that's in my DNA, maybe. But you know, I love. And it doesn't matter what the factory makes, you know, I love the dust, I love the noise, I love the pattern, I love the repetition. I love the ebb, I love the flow. You know, I love the light, I love the smells. You know, I think they're wonderful places to be. And I love people who make stuff. Like people who make things are the best people. Cause also when you make things and you make them by hand. Things go wrong all the time. And I think it gives you a humbleness and an honesty and an integrity that you don't get from working in Excel spreadsheets. I love it, you know, and I've lived, you know, as I said to you, I've lived in Melbourne, San Francisco, New York and London. And honestly, the happiest I've ever been is working on a dip line in Stoke on Trent.

B (15:41)

So, you know, there you go. And what about when you get other validation? And that could come in the form of, you know, the right compliment you need. Just when you know, you're a bit exhausted and a customer tells you that this is beyond their expectations or winning awards, whether it's at Salon or being recognized for a contribution to a sort of a heritage part of British manufacturing. That must be incredible to get that validation because as you said, sometimes you must feel like you've embarked on a crazy journey. But to get those moments, I don't know, what's that? What's that like?

A (16:12)

I know, I meant to say. Yes, in truth, I find it all a bit fake and a bit insincere. Like I'm being awarded. I got some awards from some journalists who have seen terrible people don't listen to what they say, they're not to be trusted, but they don't work alongside me. They don't see how I treat my staff on a day to day basis. They have no idea if my business is profitable. They have no idea if I actually treat people kindly and fairly. So I sort of, of take it all with a grain of salt, like it's all very nice, but actually I would be. I'm far more pleased when someone who, who really knows me and who actually works alongside me when they say, hey, Sarah, I thought that was really great. That's when I actually. Because they know, they know me and they know what I've. What I've actually done to get to this point. So, yeah, I'm pretty selective.

B (16:52)

So impervious. Impervious to compliments, even. Okay, so what happens next? Exciting growth, whether or not you like it, Sarah, Recognition from your contemporaries and peers and even some of those grizzled hacks. But what comes next? What should we look out for? What are you most exc.

A (17:08)

Oh, the next few years is all about stabilising Stoke on Trent. So Paul and Geoff have just turned 60, so hopefully I've got eight more years before they leave. So really the next eight years is about getting all that because all that information which is in their brain, written down into systems and processes and standardisation and start training up the next generation to come up who can replace them so they hopefully can retire at 68 and we will be able to carry on without them because at the moment we wouldn't be able to do it. It doesn't exist without Paul and Jeff. And so one of the things I'm working on right now is I'm setting up an MRP system, like a manufacturing resource planning system, like to schedule. At the moment I've been doing it in an Excel spreadsheet and it's now got to the point it's too difficult and complicated and beyond my Excel skills. So, yeah, it's about systems and processes in Stoke and then hiring more people. Like one of the biggest problems in ceramics, and I think almost every single ceramics company will tell you this, is that we have an aging workforce. Like often the average age is sort of 55 and we need the 20 year olds, the 30 year olds and the 40 year olds to be coming through. So for us in Stoke, really, you know, I'd like to. When I took over the business, we were 10, we're currently 15. Ideally, if growth and sales allow, we would double again. You know, I basically want. Every single person needs to have someone 10 years younger than them training up to do what they do. Because you can probably learn the basics of how to do a job in maybe three to six months, but you don't get really good until you've been doing it for years.

B (18:28)

The craft. Well, I was going to ask you about that because where you have a sector like this in a geography where, you know, it was the work that generations of families did, almost without question, you said, you know, mining and ceramics on these scale, once that business, well, once that sector changes diminishes, it's not a well worn path, it's almost an unknown path. Money. What's the attitude amongst the young people in that, in that area? And is it this slightly perverse situation where you have to go out and win these people around, you have to educate them about what this sector means because it's alien to them now because it's been so diminished over such a long period of time?

A (19:05)

Yeah, yeah, because you can go and get a job in an Amazon warehouse or at bet365 in Stoke on Trent, probably that pays better than a ceramic, pays better than a ceramics factory. So, yeah. And also, I think, and you're right, ceramics has been a multi generational industry. And so even in Our own company. So Deborah, who's our most experienced decorator, who's worked with Paul And Jeff for 37 years, her mother was a ceramics decorator for 40 years. And now Deborah's daughter Becky has joined us and she's 26 and we're training her in how to do ceramics. So that's just three generations just in. In that one family. And then another guy, Andy, in the decoration, he's with us. He' with us for 30 years. His, you know, college age daughter works part time with us and she turns out she's really good. So ceramics is in the blood. And apparently there's a even younger daughter who hasn't hit working age yet who I'm eyeing off as well.

B (19:50)

Give her a second.

A (19:51)

Yeah, 14 and nine months, I think.

B (19:52)

Sarah, that's amazing, isn't it? And I know you talked about where you find your validation and it's. If it's, you know, a colleague or a team member thanks you or someone who knows better, that must give you a lift to be one of the few people who is helping to continue to power a generational industry. I mean, that's. That must give you some stuff. You still look somewhat sanguine, but that's. That is. I'm telling you, that's good. That's amazing, isn't it?

A (20:19)

Yeah, it is. It's really rewarding and fulfilling in a way that, you know, selling tiles to billionaires is not like, you know, that's, you know, making, working alongside. And then we have a real finding spirit. There is, because there are so few jobs left in Stoke, it has been decimated for so many years that we do have a real. We have a chip on our shoulder, we have a real fighting spirit, like we're the last men on the dance floor, you know, and. And in fact, we're starting to really try and build in Stoke, you know, reaching out to other people. So historically, in Stoke, the worlds of tiles and tabletops did not cross over, even though we use the same raw materials, the same kilns, you know, never do the two touch or meet. But before I took over Phoenix, you know, I did go and talk to Emma Bridgewater and she was fantastic. There's a small company called 1882 who are a bit like us, but for tableware, you know, we've had sports days with them. We're just trying to build just a greater sense of community and pride for those of us who are still left working in ceramics. And, you know, I think Emma Bridgewater has spoken about this at length. But I think, you know, we did lose a lot of people in ceramics. Like, why would you work if you're a 30 or 40 year old, you've watched your grandparents and your parents lose their jobs, why would you go do it? So, yeah, I think we're going to have a real campaign to get people back into the industry.

B (21:26)

Okay, Sarah, what should we look out for? Where do you pop up? Where, I don't know, listeners who are interested in what you do, if they want to and see you, if they just want to see the wares, if they want to, I don't know, get their hands on these products. Can they come and see you in Stoke here in London? Tell us, what should they do?

A (21:42)

Yeah, so we have a home office studio in Hampstead, so. And where they can come there and actually you'll get to see more tiles in Hampstead than you will in Stoke on Trent because we've got lots of out on display. And yes, so yes, the customers are welcome to come and see us at the studio in London. And then if you happen to be in Stoke on Trent, yes, you can come see the factory, actually. So we would ask that you call us in advance, not just turn up because we're not, you know, we are a working factory and there's not a huge amount of room. And in fact, actually for a lot of our interior designers clients, we've just recently put together like a Visit Stoke guide where, you know, if you're going to come, we want them to come and see, you know, how we make and you know, why we charge what we charge. It's an hour and a half on the train from London to Stoke. So if you're going to come up, you might as well make a day of it. So we have some suggestions to also go see 1882 or Wedgwood or the VA or the Potteries Museum. And then actually in September and October, it's the Ceramics Biennale. So, so that's a good time to visit Stoke on Trent. So you can come and see Phoenix Tile Studio and then go to the Biennale to see a celebration of ceramics.

B (22:40)

That was Sarah Watson, the founder of Balinaum. And you can find out more about the journey Sarah's been on by heading to ballinaum.co.uk. you're listening to the entrepreneurs. We head to Japan now, a country known for its eclectic cafes and many would argue one of the best places in the world to enjoy a cup of coffee, despite not being a coffee producing nation. But all that could be starting to change in Kumamoto Prefecture, one company is growing coffee organically with the aim of producing some of the world's finest beans. Monocle's Ryuma Takahashi filed this report from Tokyo.

D (23:27)

Generally, regions with climate and soil suitable for coffee foaming are called the Coffee Belt. Tropical or subtropical areas within 25 degrees north and south of the equator. Japan is the fourth largest coffee consuming country in the world. But since its territory lies between 20 and 46 degrees north latitude, it's generally considered impossible to grow coffee in Japan. But there is a company in Japan working to grow domestic Japanese coffee. The company Japoni Coffee Firm grows coffee on the Mount ASO in Kumamoto Prefecture in Japan. Mount ASO is an iconic mountain in the Kyushu region and is famous as Japan's largest active volcano. I spoke with Kei Sato, the CEO of this company.

C (24:16)

There are two important conditions for growing coffee that are essential to producing the world's finest coffee. One is temperature difference and the other is volcanic ash soil. All of the world's high end coffee produce regions such as Kona in Hawaii, Blue Mountain and Kilimanjaro in Africa meet these combinations of temperature difference and volcanic ash soil. The greater the temperature difference within a day, the sweeter the coffee will be as well as its aroma and flavor. Coffee trees also prefer the same volcanic ash soil at the volcanic regions of Echio Pier where coffee originates. One place in Japan that meets these conditions is ASO in Kumamoto.

D (25:05)

This company didn't just realize that coffee farming is possible around Mount ASO in Japan. Rather, he said that precisely because they're growing coffee in Japan, they can grow the world's highest quality premium coffee.

C (25:19)

Since we started natural farming coffee cultivation in 2022, we have completed three harvests and each time the yield was increased and the coti has improved. In particular, the coffee harvested this year has a sugar content of 26 degrees, which is higher than the world's finest coffee beans in terms of sugar content alone. Its distinctive feature is its very strong sweetness. We believe that it has a flavor similar to geisha beans. Among coffee beans on the market, it has a strong sweetness and aroma, little acidity and almost no bitterness of flavors or harshness, making it an easy to drink coffee for anyone.

D (26:07)

Arabica coffee beans typically have a sugar content of around 22% even for the highest grade. This is achieved through Japan's unique environment where they can create temperature differences of over 30 degrees using greenhouses compared to the usual 15 degree differences in typical coffee producing regions. This demonstrates Japan's potential to produce high value High quality coffee beans similar to Japan's premium fruit market. But according to Hume, growing organic coffee in Japan is really challenging.

C (26:41)

The first challenge was to obtain farmland for cultivation. The next challenge was to raise funds to build a greenhouse in order to overcome the cold in winter. The greenhouse is necessary for coffee cultivation in Nassau. But with no coffee bean production and no public support, it was difficult to raise the construction cost of the greenhouse, which is actually cost about $300,000 to build one greenhouse. The cooperation of a company that synthesized with the potential of Japanese domestic coffee and the wonderfulness of spreading natural farming to the world, we were able to raise funds, build a greenhouse and start coffee cultivation. Compared to the world's major coffee producing regions, Japan tends to be humid. The biggest challenge is the occurrence of many pests unique to Japan. For example, small white insects called scale insects burrow into the coffee coffee cherries and suck out their sweet juice. And they have a negative impact on the quality of the coffee. Because we don't use pesticides, all pest control is done manually. For this reason, staff and people with disabilities deal with the task manually every day.

D (28:03)

Sato says he wants to develop Japan's premium coffee market using a different approach from traditional coffee producing regions around the world.

C (28:12)

Because we need to use the greenhouses for cultivation, it is difficult to compete directly with global producers in terms of production volume and price. For this reason, we would like to produce a small amount of the world's finest coffee, which is also our mission, and sell it directly to people who synthesize the wonderfulness of natural farming. Specifically, we are currently setting up a coffee tree owner system where you can own the 3, 5 years and receive the beans harvested every year. In addition, in 2026 we plan to open a cafe lounge attached to a coffee farm in Nasokumamoto. Prices start at $200 per cup, but we hope you will enjoy the rare Japanese natural farming coffee that can only be drunk here.

B (29:06)

That was Kei Sato, the CEO of Japonic Coffee Farm, in conversation with Monocle's own Ryoma Takahashi. You can find out more by heading to japonic-coffee.com and that's all for this episode of the Entrepreneurs. We'll be back at the same time next week. Do listen out for Eureka coming your way. This Friday program's produced by Laura Kramer with audio editing by Jack Dewars. And you can find out more about the show@monocle.com that's where you can also subscribe to the magazine and read more about better businesses every month. If you'd like to get in touch with the team. Drop Laura a note on lrkonical.com I'm Tom Edwards. Goodbye, and thanks for listening to the entrepreneurs.