Lindy Prickett (5:39)

Yeah, so we can't. It's hard to apply it to existing building cities and infrastructures.

Shalini Goyal Pala (5:45)

As a designer isn't is challenging for the existing infrastructure. But for countries like India, where one of the reports says that 70% of the construction is yet to come up, the infrastructure is yet to come up. So while we are economically growing, why don't we also look at this being more sustainable? And that's where exactly the Indian policies look at. We are not looking only at the economic growth, but sustainable growth. So while we come up with these kind of infrastructural developments, when we talk about, let's say the energy consumption in India that's growing, that's increasing very fast, but all this energy, if it is to be fossil fuel based energy, then you don't talk about, you're not talking sustainable. But as we see we are growing our we are almost 200 gigawatts of solar energy today. We are looking at more renewables going ahead. So why not talk about, if you're talking about growth as the production increases in India, the manufacturing is one of the focus areas, why don't we start looking at making it more sustainable? That's where most of the emerging economies plays a very important role. And in fact, so is the global South.

Lindy Prickett (6:53)

So I want to just go back a minute to you, Shalini. You're India's leading expert in circular economies. You have your own think tank. You've written the first book on this for the Indian market. What was your light bulb moment? How did it come to you that this was something that you wanted to pursue and bring it to India and as you say, the global south and help the world body of thinking when it comes to the circular economy.

Shalini Goyal Pala (7:16)

I have another non profit organization that works on the ground. It's called Women for India Foundation. I was writing down the tagline for my nonprofit. I said, we want a cleaner and greener India. So while working to build up a cleaner and greener India, one thing that came to my notice and I read about in early 2017 was circular economy, something very new for India. What it was, nobody knew. But then when I started relating to the literature that was available mostly from Europe, but also something from some literature was available in U.S. it talked about how the materials that we use, they go back to the circulation and never end up in landfills. The second thing the literature mentioned was about reducing the extraction of materials. And I said these two things relate to making any country, not only India cleaner and greener. If we are kind of using the resources, not building up landfills, that is exactly what we want. And then I started reading about it more and more and that told me that this is such an important topic that if India is not talking about it today, it certainly will start Talking a couple of year hands and then that's the time when I started to write the book. I said before we start talking about it, we need to build knowledge around the subject. And so I started writing this book. But as it happened, this came out to be a book which covered six important sectors. These sectors are very useful for the industry readers, the people who want to see how they can bring a change in their own sector specifically. So that's how it happened. And then we have never seen back. We established the council and we are going on with all the work that we do.

Lindy Prickett (8:55)

Have you had any pushback or resistance to this kind of thinking in India Initially?

Shalini Goyal Pala (9:00)

I would say a little bit. It was a new subject. Even some policymakers said we are working on resource efficiency. Why are you talking about circular economy? How is it different and why should we talk about it? At that time 2019, India came out with the national Resource Efficiency draft policy. So they were saying that we are working on it. I tried to convince them and also talk about how it is different from resource efficiency. But still both remains relevant and circular economy is equally relevant. But I think that was the initial, very initial kind of discussion that we had. But after that there was a joint declaration between India and EU on using circular economy as one of the major tools. And then came the Honorable Prime Minister on the 15th of August 2021 announcing about the circular economy mission in India. And since then things have all been very, very positive and we are only thinking of how to do this, how to do that, including the industry, including the policymakers on several areas in this. So that's been a very great journey so far.

Lindy Prickett (10:06)

So you're working both with the industry and policymakers. I know you talk about payoffs to circular economy and trying to convince people to embrace this. What are those?

Shalini Goyal Pala (10:16)

There are a couple of advantages that we look at. One is the global policies as they happen and they impact the exports from India. The industry which is the part of the global supply chains have to also look at what is happening globally and have to kind of look at those policies. For example, CBAM has been introduced, Waste shipment regulation policy came and then the Eco design policy that came from Europe. The Indian industry has to get all those things embedded to continue the exports to the other countries and that gives them a competitive advantage. The industry that will switch on to these regulations faster will be able to look at a broader business than the one who are not. The second is also these policies that are coming in India extended producers responsibility that has pushed the industry to look into taking back what they put on the shelf. There is EPR in more than five sectors and it continues to grow further. So like plastics, in plastics, single use plastic was banned. But then also came the extended producer responsibility which made it mandatory for the plastic producers, importers and brand owners to collect back the plastic that they were selling.

Lindy Prickett (11:32)

Yeah, it's a huge problem worldwide. In India and Thailand, all across the world you can can see plastic piling up. Especially where waste management systems aren't very good. But it's an expensive problem to fix, isn't it?

Shalini Goyal Pala (11:44)

Yes, certainly. And so with it comes is how do you kind of collect that material back which is going to the landfills at the moment. So it's a huge opportunity. It's an opportunity not only for the companies who are manufacturing already manufacturing plastic, but also for the new startups to think of solutions that could bring back this plastic to circulation. And so one came the collection. So the reverse supply chain, the reverse mechanism played an important role. But along with that the another thing is using more sustainable material. Sooner the industry switches to alternate materials that's more either it's compostable or biodegradable or is more regenerative in nature. They get a very good advantage of being more circular and that's where they get an advantage over other businesses. So innovation plays an extremely important role. We have seen innovation coming in textile sector for that case. In textiles there are innovative material. The fabrics that made from banana, that's made from coconut, that's made even from pine leaves. So a whole set of tableware that's made from areca palm leaves is now used as an alternate to the single use plastic that was there earlier.

Lindy Prickett (12:57)

And bamboo.

Shalini Goyal Pala (12:58)

And bamboo. And so these all examples play a such important role. And we see that there is a growing demand with single use plastic ban. And so there is a market that needs someone has to bridge that gap. Someone who is the first mover will take the advantage. And we are seeing lot of models that are coming up, lot of innovation that's coming up. Along with that I think I would also like to mention about the digitalization. There are a lot of models and startups who have come up in waste management, in reporting, in bringing the data and using that data for analytics to drive to solutions that are more profitable for the businesses. The more technology you use, the more efficient you are, the more you are kind of not taking just a decision out of uninformed, but you are taking informed decisions to support your business models. And that's where a lot of we Are seeing the decisions are being taken both by the policymakers and as well as the industry.

Lindy Prickett (13:57)

We've talked about electronics, textile, construction. But what about travel and tourism? There's such a lot of interest now in eco tourism and sustainable travel. How can the circular economy be applied more broadly?

Shalini Goyal Pala (14:09)

So one thing is certainly making your travel and stay more sustainable. How not only the tourists by themselves but also the cities could encourage tourism which is more sustainable is looking at completely decentralized local models. Something like India had started during the lockdown was vocal for local is what we need to kind of embrace. Not every tourist spot has to come up with the brands showing big brands for shopping. But it could be your very local stuff that is particular for that area. How do you promote the local cuisine? I'm talking about very minuscule, very ground level changes. But that changes the whole industry outlook altogether. You don't have to purchase or buy exotic fruits to lay on the table. Why not talk about the fruits that are local enough and are suitable for that climatic condition? Local cuisines, India is huge. And I'm sure if you travel abroad there are areas where there is some authentic taste that belongs to that area. We have to actually promote, start promoting that the local artisans promote the travel. I mean energy is a major, major role. Why don't we shift to renewable energy? Most of the hotels and policies that support the tourism industry adopt to more of renewable energy will reduce the carbon footprint of this entire industry. Then why are we not talking about, let's say, what happens to the way the tourists travel? Why are we not carrying our own bottle rather than purchasing a plastic bottle every single day and throwing it up? Ultimately why are we not looking at buying less but walking more? I think that's a very important thing. I was talking to the CM of Meghalaya the other day and very good example he said was we are building up the infrastructure in such a manner that people prefer traveling by either by walking or using a bicycle, not using cars. Because Meghalaya is a very small state. And while we are looking at developing it sustainably, they want tourism happening. But why not make this tourism more sustainable? And that's all the ideas that flows in when you start to look at making it more greener, both from the side of the government as well as I think the tourists play in extremely important control there.

Lindy Prickett (16:34)

And Meghalaya is that fabulous northeastern state in northeast India. Before we end, can you just let me know. You're working in India but you're also feeling that there's a lot of need to pull in the Global South. So what's happening in Europe and America and other parts of Asia is already maybe galloping ahead, but now your work in India is trying to pull in the Global south as well. How is that going?

Shalini Goyal Pala (16:59)

After the G20 presidency that India led, it is very clear that India wants to take an approach of neighbors first. And what we want to do is, while we look at sustainable growth, make other countries in the Global south also take a similar route and learn from us. We want to share our experiences, we want to share what's happening in India, the innovation that's happening and make other people also take the similar route if they find it suitable for their countries, maybe a little bit of adaptation. But the point is, how do we look at all these emerging economies who are finding it very tough financially and also the knowledge. So I think the role that the Council plays in this area is bridging up that knowledge, bringing up ways that could enable that financing in Global south to help them make a similar kind of a transition. India leads in technology, is one of the technology leaders in the world. How do we use that expertise to help others? Also to leverage what we have already done? We don't have to reinvent the wheel. So while the Council works in India with industry, we work with policymakers, we want to help and support emerging economies in Global south to also take a similar route. Learn from our experiences, share with us and build up on that knowledge. Further for everyone to make that change, See, we also need to understand a major population of the world lives in global South, Africa, South. So when there is a transition in south, it is good for the globe, it is good for everybody, the north or the South. I think what role do we want to play in Global south is about being one of the leaders who is trying to bridge the north and the South. There is a lot happening in north, but a lot more needs to happen. How do we learn and exchange from each other? So I think while we work on enabling that transition in Global south, it is equally important. How do we open up channels where south learns from north and north learns from South?

Lindy Prickett (19:01)

What happens if we don't embrace the circular economy? Tell me why it's so important.

Shalini Goyal Pala (19:07)

One thing that comes to my mind, which is the base of all these discussions on sustainability, is the temperature, the global warming. We are aiming at 1.5 degrees Celsius of increase and that's where everyone wants that the climate change should stop. And we are looking at a reversal of that. But that's not going to happen. If we are not pulling the right levers, that's not going to happen. If we change the way we are acting today. And with that, I think one of the things that we look at is use circular economy as one of the important tools to reduce that carbon footprint, to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions and thereby limiting the climate change.

Lindy Prickett (19:44)

What happens if we don't?

Shalini Goyal Pala (19:45)

We are seeing that, aren't we? The floods, the frequent floods, the forest fires, the weather patterns have changed completely. We are sitting in February in New Delhi and we don't even feel the cold of winters anymore. Look at Europe, look at us. The way that patterns are changing, we are actually realizing that and we would see more of that happening. People have predicted lot of floods and fires before it comes to complete kind of drying off the land. But that's how it will happen. If we don't become more sustainable, that's what's going to happen.

Tom Edwards (20:28)

Many thanks to Shalini Goyalbala, who was speaking to Lindy Prickett. This is Pullman Voices, a Monocle Radio production for Pullman Hotels. This episode was produced by Holly Fisher and researched by Paige Reynolds. I'm Tom Edwards. Next time we meet Roxanne Vaza, director of Station F, the world's biggest startup campus, to discuss what pioneering spirit looks like today.

Lindy Prickett (20:53)

As we launched and as we created Station F, we really wanted to become kind of the home for entrepreneurs. We wanted to help people who had this kind of these crazy ideas and these great ambitions to take those first steps.

Tom Edwards (21:07)

For more on Pullman Voices, head to Pullman's Instagram page @pullmanhotels. And for more information and hotel bookings, you can visit pullman.accor.com if you enjoyed listening to this episode, head to monocor.com radio or wherever you get your podcasts to follow and subscribe.