← The Entrepreneurs
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- [00:00]
Anna Zimmermann
Foreign.
- [00:12]
Tom Edwards
Hello and welcome to the Entrepreneurs on Monocle Radio. The show all about inspiring people, innovative companies and fresh ideas in global business. Today's episode features words and welds of wisdom. First, we'll catch up with a friend of the show whose new book is is essential reading for all aspiring entrepreneurs and business owners.
- [00:31]
Joanna Jensen
If I can help just one person accelerate their growth or their ambition, hurrah. My work is done.
- [00:38]
Tom Edwards
And later we'll visit Vienna to meet a designer who's created a community to introduce more women to the craft of metalwork.
- [00:46]
Anna Zimmermann
I taught myself how to weld as an act of self empowerment.
- [00:50]
Tom Edwards
This is the Entrepreneurs with me. Tom Edwards, you're listening to the Entrepreneurs. Joanna Jensen is an entrepreneur, non exec speaker and the founder of Childs Farm, the award winning natural skincare brand she launched back in 2010. Today, Child's Farm products are stocked in more than 7,500 stores across the UK and around the world. Joanna sold a majority stake a few years back and has completed her exit from the brand after more than three decades in business and and as an investor. She's now added author to her already long list of achievements. Her new book, Making Business Child's Play. See what she's done there. Offers insights from her journey. I'm delighted to say Joanna once again stopped by at Midori House to talk about how she distilled years of hard earned knowledge into just 250 pages. I began by asking her why and for whom she wrote the book.
- [01:49]
Joanna Jensen
I just felt that I learned so much over my 12, 14 years of my Child's Farm journey that I wanted to share it. Because some things took me months, if not years to learn, I can now share them in minutes. My whole modus operandi now is supporting the small medium enterprise universe within the uk and if I can help just one person accelerate their growth or their ambition by them reading this book, hurrah. My work is done.
- [02:19]
Interviewer/Host (possibly Monocle Radio host)
We'll drink to that. And it's interesting the way it's even broken down. It's kind of episodic through the journey of building. But you include, I think critically important things like your little black book. You know, one of the realities is, and particularly also for aspiring female founders is there is still an inequity, not just in investment, which we've talked about before from PE or vencap, the rest of it, but also just in that social capital access that information. How important was it to really communicate, you know, some of those inside connections, the people who can actually move. Help aspiring entrepreneurs to Sort of move the levers more readily.
- [02:50]
Joanna Jensen
Well, I think it's so important because you don't know what you don't know, right? If you're coming into this and a complete newbie like I was, I didn't even know what FMCG meant. I mean, that's for those that don't know. It's fast moving consumer goods and I had to write it on my hand because I just couldn't remember the way it worked. I learned so much in my journey that most of it, I would say 95% of it was real eye opening stuff. And I felt a bit daft actually, that I didn't know that. So I just wanted to avoid that issue for as many people as possible by saying, actually you do need to make sure that you're a member of the copyright licensing agency before you start posting articles about you on your website, otherwise they'll nick you for non payment.
- [03:37]
Interviewer/Host (possibly Monocle Radio host)
Tell me about the process of writing a book. As I said, I'm always kind of in awe of anyone who gets a book out of the door. I don't know, compare it to the business. Was it, as it happens, quicker but easier, harder, the same.
- [03:48]
Joanna Jensen
I think it was a similar experience as in I had no idea what I was doing and I had to be quite disciplined. I did very luckily have someone helping me because I could have just not done this or it would have taken me 10 years to do it. And I wanted to do it, I wanted to share that knowledge and so was really disciplined about it. And I found that it was just like, almost like a sort of vomit of words because I kept on coming back to things I'd forgotten about. And it was very clever because the way that Tina worked with me, she was trying to tease stuff out. So it was really, really, really helpful. Otherwise I. I would have just written a sort of spew of words. And the fact that she made me go back on my journey was really, really helpful and I really. It was quite cathartic. And there were times actually when I remember one time, my darling artist, Emma Earnshaw, who did all the wonderful labels for Charles Farm, she wrote to me to say that her sister Sarah, who was the one that found me and my manufacturer, had sadly died of cancer and that Emma had that same gene and fortunately they'd caught it early so they could operate on her. And I remember I was reading that while I was actually on a call with Tina and Emma. I couldn't afford to pay her when she was my artist, so I paid her a nominal Sum. But I gave her shares and she said, if it wasn't for Child's Farm, I wouldn't be able to get this done now. And I can get this done privately and my kids will have a mother, unlike Sarah's kids. And I'm sort of welling up now. It was one of the most emotional things. And I think all of us leave a legacy, don't we? There's that. And it made me more determined to make sure that this book could help as many people as possible. Not going to advocate it's going to save your life, but it could really help you on your journey. And it also taught me the importance of making friendships on that journey.
- [05:53]
Anna Zimmermann
And.
- [05:53]
Joanna Jensen
And I talk a lot in the book about relationships and making relationships, and I would say pretty much most of the suppliers and certainly my core investors are still my mates and my three Andrews, Andrew Leake, Andrew Cook and Andrew Rayner, who were with me and supported me endlessly. They're still on the scene and I talk to them a lot. You know, these are really important things. And so whilst that journey has ended now, I still got the legacy of that journey coming with me. And darling Emma did all the illustrations for the book as well, which just shows her versatility of style. And it's just a joy that Child's Farm was just more than a treatment for poorly skin. It actually allowed somebody to continue to be a mum.
- [06:43]
Interviewer/Host (possibly Monocle Radio host)
And, John, I think it's a testament to your approach, you know. Will you say everyone thinks about Legacy in those terms? I think not everybody does. And that's why there are brands that become beloved, that make a genuine impact and others that don't, precisely because I don't think everyone thinks like that. So I commend you for it. And I also commend you for just how concise you've been. I think, as you said, there's a risk often with these books that it can become a bit of a screed. Right. And it can become somewhat impenetrable. It doesn't have that sort of handbook utility, because you have to kind of rifle through those. It's very concise and yet very comprehensive, which is, again, testament, I suppose, as you said, to the collaborative process of consigning the ideas. It's not only a primer, though, for starting a business or the early stage, to my mind. I think there's quite a lot of broader utility in there. How important do you think it is, especially now, you know, you're involved in so many other businesses as an investor and as an advisor for even later stage businesses to stop, maybe to read a book like this and then to sort of perform a bit of an mot, do a bit of a health check on the status of their own business. Do you think sometimes founders get on that hamster wheel and almost they forget to take stock. Do you hope the book also can deliver that function as well, Joanna, do you think?
- [07:50]
Joanna Jensen
Yeah, most definitely. And that again, again, was the purpose of it. It's a great handbook for someone starting out, but it is a really good way to, as you say, go back, have a look, execute an MOT on your business. Because there's elements of this that are in the book that I will talk to brands that are scaling now that they simply haven't covered. The most important one of all is knowing your consumer. In the days of Meta, there seems to be this misunderstanding that Meta knows who your consumer is. I can assure you Meta doesn't. And frankly, Meta doesn't care either. You need to know who your consumer is. Particularly when the world has pivoted since COVID but also since the Ukraine war, when everything in terms of M and A shut down for about 12 months. And what we now have is people aren't looking for a brand that's got ability to grow and grow into itself. They're looking for a brand that's already growing and they're looking for a brand that has got profitability either already achieved or most definitely in their line of sight. And so we really have to look at how we spend every penny when it comes to marketing. And what concerns me is this trend for matter, is missing out on all of those wonderful other means of marketing and communicating with your consumer. Could be radio, which I am a huge proponent of, but also TV out of home, those lovely billboards we can never any of us forget. Hello boys. The most impactful out of home campaign we've ever seen. Politically correct versions are available, but we've got to look beyond the normal. I for one, I had a real problem at Charles Farm having influencers talking about our brand. I couldn't with my hand on my heart say that a product that was meant for the most vulnerable of our human group, children, should be endorsed by people who believed in it, not by people that were paid to endorse it. So I have a real problem with influencers anyhow.
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Interviewer/Host (possibly Monocle Radio host)
And I think, I think you're in similar company in this building.
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Joanna Jensen
I just don't get it. And you know, one of my kids came to me, what she called the Bieber lady, married To Justin Bieber.
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Tom Edwards
Oh, yeah.
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Joanna Jensen
Hayley, Haley, well done.
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Interviewer/Host (possibly Monocle Radio host)
Down with the kids. Why are people laughing behind the glass, Joanna?
- [10:10]
Tom Edwards
I don't know.
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Joanna Jensen
They're mean. They're just mean.
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Interviewer/Host (possibly Monocle Radio host)
Granddad knows these things. All right. Yeah, they have yourselves in there.
- [10:15]
Joanna Jensen
Anyhow, she has this amazing beauty brand and one of my kids came up to me and said, I've got to get this cream. Look at her skin, look how amazing she looks. This is absolutely what I need to get. And I just said, what, are you blind? I said, that woman will have had a cast of thousands making her up. She'd have had a hydro facial before she even sort of did anything else. Light cameras, action. And I said, do you really think she uses her own products? And I'm afraid I sort of break her little bubble a bit. And she said, no, no, no. But she says she uses it. And I said, well, that's a large porcupine, because it's simply not true. And I think we need to cut through this. What I actually think is horseshit about branding. And I mean, Child's Farm was built on word of mouth and it was built by viral posts by people who loved it. Brands like Little Moons, exactly the same. A TikTok viral post. Absolute collagen that has just been women saying, oh my goodness, at last. They were the first people to create a collagen supplement. All of these brands have done it through their consumers and their shoppers and the love of the product. So I would say to anyone, just listen to that consumer. If someone is telling you this supplement is going to make you bounce out of bed in the morning and feel as energetic as a 19 year old, I would think probably that's not true.
- [11:37]
Interviewer/Host (possibly Monocle Radio host)
You're so cynical, Joanne. No, I like it. And it's funny because people talk a lot about authenticity and brand building, but that's not just a tool, it's not just a resource. You can't bolt the authenticity on. I think sometimes brands will literally pay somebody to try and do it. But you're either authentic or you're not, right? It's baked in from the outset. I'm not saying brands can't change, but it's either there or it isn't.
- [12:00]
Joanna Jensen
But it's like I get asked the question quite a lot, which is profitability versus ethics and values. It's not a choice. Your ethics and values should be at the top of your decision making process. We should not be bringing new brands to market that haven't got sustainability and the impact that they have on the planet. Right up there with, you know, what they're actually selling. Because we have a duty of care to our consumer and the world that we live in.
- [12:27]
Interviewer/Host (possibly Monocle Radio host)
Well, let me ask you about that then, John, because obviously I can't remember exactly when we spoke. It's going back two or three years, I think, and obviously your involvement with all sorts of other initiatives by women, Bill, which we riffed about before, which I'm really interested in, and to this idea about a more savvy consumer. They don't just sort of ask or want to know about intentionality or purpose. They're kind of demanding it or expecting it, certainly from brands they're going to keep engaging with since we last spoke. How's that looking? Are we getting better at that? Are people sort of voting with their pocketbooks more? Are you seeing brands having a better journey to scale and growth and profitability where it's built on those foundations? I know it's only a couple of years, but are things. How are things going on that front?
- [13:12]
Joanna Jensen
Well, I think anything in consumer now, it's an uphill battle and every yard is a yard, hard one in growth. But what I'm seeing is those ones that have been true to their brand ethics and values have remained buoyant because I think anyone who is not clear on their strategy and their purpose and why they've been created can get blown in the breeze very, very easily because consumers aren't fools anymore. They know what matters to them. We know if we've got ten pounds to spend, we want to get the best value for that £10. You know, every penny counts right now for most households. And I think we're much more discerning about what we're looking for. There are trends, gut health being one, which I think is tremendous. It's making people really think about what they're consuming and how that impacts their health. But there are other things as well. People don't necessarily want those air miles on their products. They don't want to know that this product comes from China or this product comes from Taiwan. And it's a matter of ethics, it's a matter of quality. But it's a matter thinking about that whole thing in Covid where people were buying stuff from all over the world and then things got stuck and it got so expensive and shipping became absurd. People are really thinking about things differently and that's why you have sort of this real surge in the Portuguese economy where they've become really good at manufacturing and they've become really good at manufacturing with ethics at the core of what they do. There are a lot of brilliant B Corp manufacturing businesses in Portugal and I think that is a change. I would love to see more within Europe.
- [14:58]
Interviewer/Host (possibly Monocle Radio host)
Yeah, I think if people head to the Monocle shop, for example, just around the corner, plenty of collabs with some really brilliant Portuguese brands. As you say, it's a real soft power. Plus and the nations, interestingly, the nations that know it's worth shouting about are very good at it. Portugal certainly one more power to them. Would you say, therefore, Joanna, I was joking about your healthy cynicism or skepticism about certain things. Are you optimistic about the direction of travel? I mean, maybe you could mention, I don't know whether you can talk about some of the businesses in which you're currently invested or supporting or advising, maybe as examples of great people producing great products for consumers in exactly that way, with that intention that you're describing. Is there enough for you to be optimistic about?
- [15:39]
Joanna Jensen
Most definitely, yes. And I look, there are some sectors within consumer, like apparel that are really struggling at the moment. I mean, gut health, I've invested in three different gut health businesses and they are all absolutely on fire. I mean, frere bone broth, it's brought Ambien bone broth to the consumer. Not only the fact that you don't have to keep it in the fridge and it's got a very long shelf life, it's the fact it is mixed, made from Scandinavian beef and fish and they do a vegan version as well. And it is fantastic. Goodness, it's full of collagen. And they are doing brilliantly. Hunter and Gather, who I've invested in now for what, four years? I think not only they do condiments which are free of sugar and free of seed oils. So amazing. I mean, avocado, mayonnaise, who knew? Who knew? But they also do a collagen supplement and a bone broth powder supplement. And again on fire. And again, embedded in all of that is their values and ethics. And then I cannot not mention the McFarlane twins, Lisa and Alana, who are behind. They had a series on Channel 4 called Know your shit. And these two were Tim Spector's early guinea pig twins, created the gut stuff. And that is fiber full bars and drinks now, but also an app that allows you to really understand what you're consuming. And they are just absolutely blowing the lights out. And the commonality of all these three bands is their founders, they pay themselves nothing. They work every hour that God sends. They know their consumer so intimately they could almost walk into a Tesco's and tap her on the shoulder and they'd know exactly who she was, largely in all cases a woman. Because 65% of consumer spend now is in the hands of women. And they just have got strategic documents that they stick to, by and large. But when they need to pivot, they pivot. And they are on a bit of an upcycle because gut health is so important. But they were there right at the beginning and they spotted that trend, they sniffed that trend. And I huge hope for them. There's other brands that I'm with, you know, tech brands, you know, Emma Sinclair, Enterprise alumni. I mean, Emma was the youngest female founder ever to list a business on aim. I have never met anyone with more drive and determination. And she's pivoted that business. She has made it profitable, she keeps on going. It's a data business. It's based on understanding. It's much cheaper to rehire someone who's worked for you before than it is to go out and find a total newbie. And she's made that the most fantastic business. And I could go on and on and on. And there are brands that are struggling right now and these are brands that I have. And this is because the founder has lost their way and because they don't understand their consumer. And there is this panic that has set in with some consumer brands I have seen, which is because they're terrified about getting off the metafly wheel. What's going to happen to my business? They would rather spend 100 grand a month on something, they don't know what it's going to do and their cost of acquisition is insane than actually pause and rethink their strategy. And too late. They came to the party realizing that profitability is key, no matter how much you said it to them. You know, stop spending money, stop being over ambitious, stop creating more npd. Sell what you've got, know what your hero product is and sell around it. There is this panic. I need to sell more. I need to find different things to sell. It's not selling. I'll throw money at the problem. And I'm afraid I have seen too many businesses already in the last 12 months go into administration.
- [19:25]
Interviewer/Host (possibly Monocle Radio host)
Jonah, you make it sound very simple. I guess that's the book, right? You make it sound like child's play, even though we know it's much more complicated than that. As a final thought, let's throw things forwards. What would please you most about the book? Would it be one of those imagined scenarios that are kind of, I don't know, I imagine an entrepreneur approaches you at an event or something, they've got a copy of the book, it's, well, thumb, there's post its, there's scribbles in the margin and they say, joanna, this was the Bible. This helped me to do X, Y and Z. Would that be the kind of. I don't think you're seeking validations from here and there, but is that the kind of imagined thing that would delight you in the abstract?
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Joanna Jensen
Looking ahead, I would be utterly thrilled if somebody did that. I mean, last night I was at Bath University and I was a guest of the Bath Entrepreneur Society and Amplify, which is another society which talks about women and women in business. And we probably had about 50, 60 entrepreneurs there last night and they were an absolute joy. And they, you know, these are students and it's coming towards Christmas and I mean, I know I would probably not be forking out a discounted book at a tenner at this point in my life and in their lives, but bless them, I mean, they all bought a book and they are keen and enthusiastic and I just said, please, in five years time, let me know how you're getting on. All of you, let me know. And I would just be so thrilled to know there was one tiny cog in their wheel to success. And that's not out of any form of vanity and that's not validation, it's just to know that it was worth doing it, I suppose. And I always said, with Childs Farm, if there's just one child, I can stop having poorly skin. My job is done.
- [21:06]
Interviewer/Host (possibly Monocle Radio host)
Joanna, brilliant. Love the book, love the story. If that happens in five years, you have to then come back and tell us about it as well.
- [21:13]
Joanna Jensen
I mean, I would be so thrilled. I would be so thrilled, I think I would cry like a baby.
- [21:17]
Interviewer/Host (possibly Monocle Radio host)
Jolly good. We can broadcast that. We can do whatever we want here at Monocle Radio. It's brilliant to check in with you, Joanna. Thanks very much for coming to update us with what you've been up to.
- [21:24]
Joanna Jensen
It's lovely to be back.
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Tom Edwards
That was good friend of the show, Joanna Jensen and Making Business Child's Play. How To Build a Winning Brand is out now, published by Kogan Page. You can find out more and buy a copy by heading over to JoannaGensen.co.uk. you're listening to the Entrepreneurs. Anna Zimmerman is a Swiss German designer based in Vienna. Her interest in metals and metalwork began early in her design studies, which took her to Eindhoven and here to London. During that Time, she launched the Feminist Welding Club, a project combining her passion for craft with a focus on making welding more accessible to those traditionally underrepresented in the field. The club has toured across Switzerland, Austria and the UK with plans to visit Spain next. Monocle's Alexei Korilov met Anna and her students as they showcased their latest work.
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Workshop Participant
I really find it extremely helpful and empowering. I mean, I only did a three hour workshop, but now I basically want to do like a week weekend where we all meet and just weld. You know, the first time I wanted to do welding, it was a guy and I, a really nice guy actually, but he just thought he can take the work off my hands and do it by himself. And I was like, okay, actually I want to learn it. And then the response was, yeah, it will take you a long time to learn it. And I know that it doesn't take a long time to learn things because I like to learn things and I learn pretty quick. It just needs somebody who takes five minutes and explain you. And this is when I found ALA.
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Alexei Korolev
Voices of validation for the Feminist Welding Club. Anna Zimmermann, its founder, works at the intersection of object, furniture and sculpture. Metal is just one of her materials, but it's the one she feels most at home with.
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Anna Zimmermann
To me, metal is not that hard, cold material. To me, it's very soft and I do really like to work with it. But it took me a long time until I could find a way to work with it because of excess and because so much of metal work is gatekept by men. And what I do really like about the material as well, because I've worked with ceramics before and I got quite frustrated because loads of things break. Metal is very different. You can basically fix anything, whether it be a scratch or a hole. So metal is very forgiving.
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Alexei Korolev
The metal working industry, by contrast, is anything but. Anna says that even at university, she felt alienated by its male dominance. That sense only deepened when she finished her studies and set up her own design practice in Vienna.
- [24:07]
Anna Zimmermann
I outsourced my work and in Vienna, that's a pretty amazing place to do so because Vienna has a rich crafts tradition and there are many, many craftsmen in Vienna. So I did that. But even then I had to hear a lot of sexist comments because I looked quite young and all the men wouldn't take me seriously. And there was one moment where I was standing in a metal workshop and behind me there was a wall with five nude calendars. And I thought, well, this is quite bizarre because the only women I've ever encountered in those spaces are the naked women on the wall. And I thought, I want to look into that. And so I taught myself how to weld as an act of self empowerment. This is kind of how the club started. Once I started welding, all of my friends wanted to learn how to weld. And this idea of the club came around. And the club also refers to knitting clubs or book clubs because they're very gender too. And I thought it's kind of a funny idea to do a welding club because it's kind of provocating as well. So usually sessions are quite open. And it's not your normal how to learn welding session. It's not about the perfect welded line. It's more about overcoming a fear there might be at the beginning and realizing that welding is not that difficult. In fact, because I do have a creative background, it's really important to me to have this openness to creativity. So I'm just there to guide people and to find out what they want to do in the session. I'm not there to set up strict rules or come up with like, oh, you have to exactly do that. And that has worked beautifully up until now. I'm really impressed by what people have created after that session. And usually they take it home.
- [26:02]
Alexei Korolev
And what do they usually make?
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Anna Zimmermann
I really like to suggest them to come up with a small object. So usually we would weld cups or small vases or someone made a loo roll holder. Very specific. So mostly functional stuff. Sometimes it's more sculptural candle holders. Yeah.
- [26:24]
Alexei Korolev
The latest sessions took place during this year's Vienna Design Week and were fully booked almost instantly. The resulting works were then presented at a special viewing. Musician and PR specialist Tina Bauer was among the participants.
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Workshop Participant
Yes, there's an element of danger. Like, you should be in a good state of mind and be able to focus on. But what I find so interesting and special about welding, when you have this mask on, it's like a complete blackout. Except, like, this one part where you actually weld two things together. And I find this very special because, like, you're basically in a dark room.
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Alexei Korolev
Veona Calaba, a designer based in Berlin, also took part in the workshop. And you're holding something in your hands which you made over the course of last week.
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Workshop Participant
Yes, exactly. I'm holding a metal rectangle, cubish thing, and you can really have an experience touching it. Exactly. Like, there are a lot of dots on it, which I made to exactly have this feeling like you touch it and it feels like maybe an animal or something that you have a little bit rough, a little bit cold. I started welding a month ago, actually, and I tried it one more time, maybe a year ago. But that was exactly the point where it brought me to think about the whole welding culture and looking for a woman that was welding. So I came to Anna.
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Alexei Korolev
When you see this amount, this level of interest, what do you feel? What's your reaction?
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Anna Zimmermann
Anna, again, at first, I was quite impressed because it took me quite some courage to be that outspoken about feminism and welding and to put my face out there and be like, well, I'm doing this. But after a while, I realized that there is, like, a need for that.
- [28:18]
Alexei Korolev
As a designer, Anand doesn't normally take on commercial work, so she relies heavily on funding and sponsorship. But with interest in the club growing, she's beginning to see it as a venture in its own right, one that not only brings an income, but serves a higher purpose.
- [28:34]
Anna Zimmermann
I hope people see how beautiful metal can be and welding can be and that it doesn't necessarily need to be intimidating. And it's very rewarding to, you know, connect with people and to feel stronger doing something together, as, for example, welding in a group with other women or other genderqueer people. And that's something I've came to love and that I don't want to miss. And I think more people should be doing something like that.
- [29:05]
Alexei Korolev
For Monocle Radio in Vienna, I'm Alexei Korolev.
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Tom Edwards
And my thanks to Alexei for that report. You can find out more about Anna's mission by heading over to theworldingclub.com.
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Workshop Participant
And.
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Tom Edwards
That is all for this episode of the Entrepreneurs. We'll be back at the same time next week. The programs produced by Laura Kramer with audio editing by David Stevens, listen again and find out more about the show@monocle.com that's where you can subscribe to Monocle magazine and ensure you're reading more about better businesses every month. If you'd like to get in touch with the team, do email laura@lrkmonacle.com or pop in and say hello to her at our Zurich bureau. Hello, I'm Tom Edwards. Goodbye, and thanks for listening to the entrepreneurs.