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The Everyday Millionaire and Mindset Matters Podcast
Mindset Matters - Episode #170 - Trust After Forgiveness: Is It Possible?
00:37:04
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome to this episode of the Everyday Millionaire Mindset Matters podcast, where I'm joined by my wife, Olympic mental performance coach Stephanie Hanlon. Francie. In these episodes, Stephanie and I have a conversation about the different aspects of what we refer to as Mindset Matters because we believe that for those who are awake, we are living in and through the most impactful time in history. Your view of the world is the filter for how you will experience the evolution and changing dynamics of it. Our intention is to provide you with ideas, nutritious food for thought, and some tools that you can use to help you in being your greatest self and living your best life. Listen in. Enjoy. Stephanie.
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B
Hey, hon.
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A
We're opening with the quote that to air is human, to forgive divine.
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B
Oh, wow. Good one.
- [01:02]
A
Okay, I'm going to walk right into a parable. I think it's really appropriate that we kind of set the context for this conversation up today around forgiveness, around trust, and how do we trust? How do we forgive? What is it really? And why is it so important to forgive? And how the heck do we do that when somebody's broken our trust? And, you know, I think there's a. It's a great conversation. I want to start with the parable. So the parable goes like this. There was a young apprentice who once accidentally dropped and just shattered a very beautiful. It's a handmade clay pot that his master had really taken the time to build. And he loved this pot. And so he was really. This apprentice was overwhelmed with the guilt. And then he had to confess to the master, and he said, I'm sorry, but I've broken something so valuable to you. And the master looked at the broken pieces on the ground and said, bring me all those shards. And so the apprentice really carefully collected all the shards. And he was expecting the master to really kind of tie into him a little bit. But instead, the master just began to meticulously mend the pot with some golden resin. And when the apprentice asked him why, the master explained that this pot will never be the same, but now it tells a story. And the golden seams show where it was once broken and brought back together with a lot of care. And he said, trust is like this pot. It can be mended when it's broken, but the cracks will always remain. They're a reminder of the pain and the healing. Forgiveness is the golden resin. And without it, the pot would remain shattered forever.
- [02:38]
B
That's beautiful. It's actually called kinzuki. It's a Japanese art form when, say, for example, China is broken or crystal and they bring it back together with a golden seam or a golden bead of resin. It's an art form called kintsugi. And I discovered it for me in Japan walking into an antique store one time and saw all this beautiful crystal. And there was these looked like they'd been broken and just kind of put together with gold. Right. And then I looked at it closer and I thought, oh my gosh, that's beautiful. And sure enough, it's what tells the story is that. And you think about and you relate it to, to trust. You know, if trust is broken, how do we put the relationships back together? How do we mend things? You know, how do we forgive? You know, it's a, it's a, it's a beautiful story.
- [03:27]
A
Well, when somebody breaks your trust, it is hard to forgive. But it's so important to understand that, you know, sometimes trust is broken very intentionally. It is malicious and that's really difficult. Then there's other times where somebody doesn't intentionally break your trust, but they do break your trust. And then it's like a different kind of aspect of it. So broken trust is such a. There's lots of nuances to it. And it's, you know, as kids growing up, your parents say, don't do this, you do this. Then you break the trust with your parents. Then the parents are guarded. But parents always seem to forgive. But do they forget? There's another aspect of trust. Forgiveness. And do we actually forget or do we not forget? So let's unpack this a little bit deeper. Trust is so important. We often have talked about the four dimensions of trust. Where we look at competency, when we look at ability, when we look at the word trust itself, will they follow through? Can they pull it off? Do they have the competency and, or will they in fact gain the competency? Can we, can we trust them to gain the competency to. And the skills to do what they say they're going to do? There's all sorts of dimensions to trust. The point of this conversation is that what happens when that trust gets broken and can we forgive? Now over the years in business, both you and I, we've had our trust broken many times. We've probably broken others trust. Never intentionally. And we always do our best to kind of make up for that or heal the wound. I don't know what it is.
- [05:04]
B
If we're made aware of it. Absolutely.
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A
I mean, yeah, if we're made aware of it.
- [05:08]
B
Yeah. I don't think anybody goes intentionally in to break people's Trust. You know, my mom always said that, you know, trust in God, but tie up your camel, you know, so trust is also about understanding your boundaries and what you're responsible for. So if you blindly trust and give your trust away, sometimes that's an abdication of responsibility. And that's, I think what, that's, I think what you're talking about unpacking and really walking the line of, you know, do you give your trust blindly? Do you just say, okay, I'm just going to believe everything this person says and I'm going to trust them, or it's like a new relationship. I'm going to trust you with my heart. I'm a trusting person. And that word gets thrown, you know, thrown into, into conversations a lot. And in business, I think blind trust is not, is not the smartest way to go.
- [05:51]
A
Well, there's the part of it is that, you know, trust can be broken. You know, we have had a theme for a long time now called clarity equals velocity. And trust can be broken unintentionally if we're not clear on what the agreements are. Maybe agreements aren't written down. Maybe interpretation of what one person said is another. And then the next thing you know, expectations aren't met. And then trust is broken because that expectation isn't met. I mean, we talk about expectations as well. And so you can see how many aspects of trust there are in ways that it gets broken, it get compromised, and then what do we do? Now this conversation for today is really about forgiveness, I think. I mean, we look at trust and we say, well, there's all sorts of ways to break trust and all sorts of reasons behind it. Some of it's malicious, unintentional, lack of clarity. I think about business partners where literally I got worked over and I have to own that aspect of it, which I'm good with, that part of it. But then I have to say, okay, I can see where I made errors. I can see where I operated on top and where was not willing to have the courageous conversation. So I can own all that part of the broken trust from my perspective. And then there's the part of it that goes, forgiveness. Now, why is the forgiveness so important? Because we often have heard over the years, and I'm sure that anybody listening has had the experience, maybe you have had the experience personally where you've actually said, I could never forgive that person. Now, what's interesting about that, and this is where some of this parable comes into play. And you know, some of the, I guess there's lots of quotes out there around forgiveness. But ultimately, you know, not forgiving somebody, as they say, is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Now, what does that even mean? Well, ultimately, if you don't forgive somebody, you're carrying around that hate, that anger. You know, physically, it's in your body, that charge is in your body, and that is not healthy. Mentally, it's not healthy. Emotionally, it's not healthy. Physically, it literally, over time, breaks you down. It's that whole part of the word dis ease. So when we look at forgiveness, we are forgiving for ourselves more than we're forgiving for the other person. So I'll pass it over to you. What's your thoughts on that?
- [08:19]
B
Yeah, I mean, I'm just bringing up a lot of stuff around, you know, where we've had to, even in our own relationship. You know, that's where that vulnerability lives. When you trust somebody that has your back, somebody that is, you know, in our case, we're partners in business and in life, and can we trust each other to make the highest decision, not just for ourselves and our business, but for each other? But ultimately, I think it's about assumptions more than expectations. And when we have assumptions, I. I do what's called an exercise called the assumption of trust. And maybe one day I'd like to unpack that one, either on this podcast or maybe in a. In a SHIFT workshop or something. But it's called the assumption of trust. And where do we assume that not only are we trusting, but are we trustworthy? And when we judge ourselves as trustworthy, we have to go in and check in on our values? And when we check in on our values, are we operating from our values? Are we overlooking things? Are we pretending not to know something so there's something bigger on the other side? If we're trusting somebody because they say certain things that really excite us or get us going in a certain direction, but something inside, maybe an intuition or something that doesn't kind of jive with our values. And if we don't honor that, we can really get our assets handed to us. So I call that the assumption of trust. And I take people through an exercise. The other thing is when the. That trust is broken, what does that mean? Does that mean your expectations weren't met? Did somebody maliciously or intentionally break your trust, you know, intentionally hurt you? I've seen, you know, especially with, you know, girlfriends growing up or people that, you know, we. We have stories that we tell ourselves about how someone's hurt us or bent us over or worked us over or whatever. But the truth is we are a party to that on some level. And I think that's where the self responsibility comes in. And for me, I don't hang on to that stuff, even stuff that you and I've been through or I've been through with people over, over time. And I, I know that whether I've intentionally or unintentionally hurt somebody, it's never something that I hang on to. And the quote I love is no forgiveness. K N O W no peace. But then on the other side, get this. No forgiveness. N O no peace. No N O Right. So it's no forgiveness, no peace, no or no forgiveness, no, no peace. And I would rather have peace. My highest value and the word my has has been for the last two decades and it's in our dining room and it's all over our house is peace. And everything I do is line aligned to that. So even if I know I've hurt somebody, if I try to apologize or, or get into a state whereby I am really vulnerable and I feel that sense of humility. But sometimes when I know my intentions were never to hurt and my intentions were pure. That's the part that's confusing is how do we ask for forgiveness when we know we didn't intentionally mean to hurt somebody?
- [11:13]
A
Well, I think you ask for forgiveness in that scenario. But I want to go back. Let's, well, let's just put a bookmark in this one and let's go back. You said something that can you share? So you for example, talked about trust, broken trust, and then you related it to forgiveness, but you connected it to values. And can you give an example or when this happens, this happens. Can you give that?
- [11:41]
B
Yeah, I can. And I think that's why the values work is so important to me. And the values matrix, you know, that we do for our driving values over the, over the last couple of decades that we do those exercises is that if we don't have that level of self awareness of what's driving us and then we're going into a relationship or going in based on our own values. If we don't have a values alignment with the other person, then ultimately there's going to be some sort of broken trust or some sort of misalignment in an understanding. Because I'm operating through my values and what I'm interpreting, sorry, interpreting as something that's important to me, but the other person, I can't always be sure that it's landing the same way through their values. So even, you know, think about a time where it's been a business deal or a relationship or a friendship, and. And you come at it with all the best intentions and that it doesn't land for the person and then they get hurt. Then there's a broken trust on some level. And I've had it happen to me in the past where I had no idea what I did to break the trust or to hurt that person. But what I've gotten to over time and where I've learned to forgive myself is that I didn't understand where it was landing for that other person. So, yes, do I forgive myself first and do I ask for forgiveness? Yes. But do it? Can I expect it? No, I really can't. Because through that other person's value system, whether it's their morals, their ethics, or their driving values at the time, that they can't forgive me. So I have to be okay and let it be incomplete on my side or think about it on the other side. If someone passes away and you haven't had a chance to say I'm sorry or something, or ask for forgiveness or give that person forgiveness, then that's left incomplete. So how do we deal with that and how does that land? So ultimately, we have to be true to ourselves and our values. And if, for example, if one of my values is to be as open and honest and authentic as I can, yet it lands differently for someone else. I can't control what their values are and how they're interpreting my or their experience of me. So I've had to really learn how to kind of walk that line whereby if I know my intention is never to hurt someone and I'm being as honest as I can in the moment, I mean, honestly, on. There's times where I've tried to explain my experience or my life to people and they think I'm a liar because my life is so complicated and it doesn't fit with the values or how other people see their lives as linear. So I've also had lots of people judge me for the. The choices that I've made or. Or how I'm showing up in the world. So ultimately, when it comes to values, if I can only be true to my values and only be as clear as I can be in the moment, and it can only be as complete as I can be in the moment, and then I have to let the pieces fall where they land and just trust that someone or anyone knows that it's never intent to hurt. But if I do Hurt. And I can ask for forgiveness. I just hope that, of course, if that person's still alive and I can have that experience is that they can forgive me on their terms. But it's on their terms. I don't expect it.
- [14:47]
A
Yeah. I mean, there's so much in all of this conversation that when you look at trust and just how nuanced it is, and, you know, there's degrees of trust. You know, again, was it malicious, was it intentional, or was it an oversight, an overstep? Was it, you know, I have the competency and I actually. You don't have the competency. There's all sorts of degrees, if you will, of trust. You know, some of it is, okay, we can look past it, let it go. It's all good. Oh, this is a repeat. So we can't trust somebody to follow through. Somebody says, I'm going to be on time, they're constantly late. Well, then you start to see how their operating system is. But then you can't trust. Then what happens is resentment builds, there's a fight. And then ultimately, can you forgive that person for showing up late on all. All the time and. Or consistently? And what do you do about it? So there's. There's a level of, first, I gotta trust that person to do what they say they're gonna do. Then. Then if you come to an agreement, then can you forgive them for the past, to let it go and to move on? Different levels of angst and anxiety and challenges that we face in the conversation of trust.
- [15:56]
B
But here we go. What if. Use that time example. What if that person doesn't know that being on time is important to you?
- [16:03]
A
Well, yeah, managing the expectation. That's exactly the. So I've been part of different meetings in a couple of different men's groups, and here's the rule, okay? The meeting starts at eight. If you show up at eight, you're late. Five, two, you're on time. Two minutes after or 30 seconds after, it's locked down, you don't get in. And there's so. But that's a really clear standard of performance. So if somebody doesn't show up, you lock the door, it's done. So there's nothing to forgive. You had an agreement, you didn't honor the agreement, let it go. If anything, the person who showed up late has an excuse and wants you to forgive them for being late, that becomes a different conversation. Again, not a real serious thing. But what if somebody works you over in business? Monetarily, a business deal is more serious. Where there's money involved. Okay, that's broken trust. There's infidelity. That's broken trust. How do you forgive an infidelity? Something happens. You know, one of the things that we. In a show that we've been watching was a drunk driver killed a mother, and there's a husband and a daughter that is there mourning, going through the process. And now the drunk driver, through a series of things that have happened, have showed up in their life. And can they forgive that person now? Forgiveness is so powerful in so many ways, and I'm going to add one more story to it. This whole concept of forgiveness came into my awareness many years ago when I was watching an interview with a number of mothers, like, I want to say five or six mothers whose sons were on death road for just. For murders. Like, it was just crazy, right? But the mothers sat there in defense and go, but he's such a good boy. And they expect people to forgive them. Now, what was interesting on that side, the mothers of the victims got together with the guys in jail and their mothers, and they collectively kind of sat down. I didn't mean not all of them, but I mean, they got the two moms and the. The murderer, the son sit down and have a conversation. And the mother of the murder victim actually forgave the murderer and in the presence of his mother. Now this all took place and it all happened. And I went. And in the. In the conversation, the mothers that were forgiving the murderers said, I can't carry this weight. I can't be in this constant, I guess, disharmony, if you will. I don't know if that's the right term, but they were really feeling it and they realized that it wasn't about. They had to say out loud and let it go. So for them, they had to let it go. Now, forgive is not about forgetting. The wound is there, the scar is there. But it is to let it go. And forgive that person is not for them. They weren't forgiving the murderer for the murder's sake. They were forgiving the murderer for their own sake. And that was really when it kind of peaked, you know, perked up in my brain going, wow, what an interesting thought process. Because how much? So think about this. In this particular case, drunk driver kills a family member. You're carrying that weight of anger, of hate, of whatever it is, you know, just the murderer is. Got their own. But all of what you're carrying around has no impact on the person that committed the break of trust, whatever that was in this case. Murder or drunk driver or whatever. Right?
- [20:00]
B
Yeah, manslaughter. I mean we've had it, we've had it in different scenarios in the world that we live in. A hockey player, for example, was accused and paid his dues and was in jail for vehicular manslaughter and then got out and then ended up being able to, you know, get. Yeah. And you know, it's really interesting you talk about it. That show is called Shrinking and I don't know, I don't know, it's on prime or Netflix. It's one of my favorite shows ever. And there's a piece of that that you brought up, hun, is that the guy who was the, you know, the drunk driver in the story was also carrying around so much guilt and so much self hate and so much regret. And that actually the young girl saw that as much as she was in pain and lost her mother, she saw at one point how much pain he was in. And I think that's what really collapsed it. And when you think about really seeing something through another person's eyes, he didn't do that on purpose. It wasn't, you know, he didn't intend to kill that person, but he did get in the car drunk. And in our society and it's a social contract that, that, that's not okay. So not only did they lose their wife, slash and mother, he then had to go through the pain of knowing that he took the wife and the mother away from this family. So when I think about the depth of that level of angst and anger and, and regret and what it would take to forgive someone, I mean, I mean I don't ever want to have to go into that scenario. But I have had a friend who has lost a son to murder a few years ago and she's actually went and went into the court courtroom and watched the sentencing happening. And I mean, as hard as it was over the course of eight or ten years because however long there are, you know, our system is so slow, she was actually able to forgive him and it freed her up. It didn't make it okay. She still didn't have her son, she was still pissed, but she let it go in her body and she begin her healing, which I found was incredible.
- [22:08]
A
That's the thing, it's. And you know, you begin the healing and the first step in beginning that healing is letting go of that hate, that resentment that you have for that individual. And I think that's the key to it all, isn't it? Is in that particular scenario where you really are. You know, we talk about it, take responsibility for your life, but there are times when there is some victim that's there. You know, she was, you know, at the effect of her son's lifestyle that went sideways for all the reasons that went sideways. She was at the effect of that. And she had a lot of resentment for the person who killed her son. But she also realized her son wasn't. Turns out her son wasn't an angel either, as I remember that story exactly right. But so she had to let go of that. You know, imagine what that does, you know, physically, mentally and emotionally to your kind of your mental and physical well being. When you're carrying that level of resentment around, that level of anger around, it's a really big weight to carry that consumes a lot of space and also breaks you down physically. And we know that to be. I think that most people realize that the whole concept of disease is dis ease. And we believe wholeheartedly that our mental wellness really has a huge impact on our physical wellness and we kind of live that way. But so my point is this, is that in terms of forgiveness, we forgive for ourselves as much as we forgive for the other person. The other person, in many cases they may be seeking forgiveness and then you say, yeah, I can forgive you, I can let it go. But the scars are there. You know, the rebuilding of trust may take years. It may never come back to what it once was. It's always an on guard, a different level of communication that comes from it. And sometimes when these things happen, it can actually improve the relationship going forward. You know, for me, I'm just, I'm too trusting. I think both of us are guilty of being a little too trusting. We've learned some hard lessons that way. And that's part of it where we have to own that aspect of what we contributed to the breakdown. And that makes it easier, but it doesn't, doesn't mean we forget. And those scars will carry forward, you know, and I think that's the big thing about it. But we don't carry it forward in our body. So went to the degree that you could own it. And there's a little bit of, you know, where I can't think of where we've been a victim to something, you know, it's like guy broadsides me, I guess, you know, you know, he comes through, you know, stop sign. There was, you know, comes up, slams me, pissed me off, rode off a vehicle, you know, there's nothing really to forgive. Shit happens, you know, he Wasn't paying attention. I don't know the guy from Adam. So what can I do? I could be pissed off about that forever. You know, I could hang on to it, being angry about the fact that they wrote off that vehicle, which. I really like the vehicle. But the point is, I'm pissed off.
- [25:18]
B
Because I know that was my favorite and I paid it off and I was so proud of myself.
- [25:24]
A
It's gone. So, anyways, long story short is, remember that as you're going through this process is that you do have to sit down and sometimes talk these things out. So if you're carrying a weight of broken trust, if you're carrying the weight of not being able to forgive or being so in a charge, I'll never forgive that person. I'll never forgive them for what they did. Well, quite frankly, they don't even know that. They don't give a shit. You know, it doesn't affect their life in any way, shape, or form. And of course, if you are, in fact, it's a family member or a person that you work with or somebody close to you that you're in their presence all the time, man, oh, man, operating on top of that resentment, looking for revenge or whatever that might be, is eating you alive far more than it is them. And that's where I believe that certainly focus mental health, physical health starts to break down. So in this particular context, as we talk through this is we have to always, first and foremost, look and say, okay, where was I responsible for whatever happened? Broken trust, as an example, where was I responsible for part of that? And if you were, you were. If you weren't, okay, great. So there's no. You can't back it up to say, no, I really was a victim. You know, I was really a victim. So at some point, though, you still have to look and say, if there's nobody to forgive or if you are just the victim in real, like, there's nothing that could have happened, then you definitely have to let it go. That is really forgiving the scenario. And that takes time, and I think it takes work. You have to have really great conversations, lots of journaling, perhaps, but you have to look at it and go, who does it serve for me to carry around this resentment and this anger, hate even, you know, that's. That's how I'm looking at it and talking it through. Working backwards from it is an approach to take.
- [27:23]
B
Well, circling back to the conversation we've had in the past. And I'm really, really unpacking this whole concept right now is feelings are inbound. My feelings are my feelings. If I'm resentful, angry, bitter because something happened to me, those are my feelings. That person doesn't know, right? So if somebody's angry at me and bitter and pissed off, you know, what I've really discovered is that that's where a lot of times gossip lives, is that you're trying to relieve yourself of some of that bitterness or anger or something. You perceive somebody did something to you so that you go around and just spew all this stuff to other people to get it out of your body. Now to me, that is a quite a low level of self awareness. And for me, if I've hurt somebody and if I don't know about it and they're carrying around all this anger and hurt against me, and I hear about it out in the community and they're gossiping and telling people what a horrible person I am, it's really not about me. And that's one of the things I'm really grateful that we've done the work over time is that if I have hurt somebody and they have the courage to come and say, you know what? You really hurt me and what you said or what you did is not okay, then that's where I go. I get to say, oh my gosh, I'm sorry. And I know that that doesn't maybe make it go away, but to me, when I'm sorry is used in a way that is true and vulnerable and there's the humility factor. But I also know people who say, fuck, I'm sorry, I'm just sorry, I'm sorry. Okay, I'm sorry, right? And they use it like as a defense mechanism. But when, when for me, if, if I am really in my heart and I go, gosh, I. That never occurred to me. I am so sorry. To me, those are two powerful words that when you have the courage and you believe and you love yourself enough, that's where again, we can go all day long into this whole selfworth self love conversation. But when you love yourself enough to be able to be humbled and say you're sorry because you know you hurt someone that you care about, to me, that is not a weapon. I've seen it used as a weapon. Oh, I'm sorry. Wow, Whatever. That's your. I'm like, no, it's not. But I'm sorry, I did not intend for this to happen. And then you have to sit in it like, it's like you sit in your shit and you're like, I just really got what my action did and how that hurt somebody. And that's when I drop, I drop to my knees, like when I, when I think I've hurt somebody, that's the worst. And then I have to forgive myself.
- [30:03]
A
So there's terms like let bygones be bygones. That seems to be, you know, kind of a minimal thing. Somebody does something. Okay, got it. You know, all these terms of, you know, don't sweat the small stuff. Because I've observed often over the years just how, you know, how revved up people get over some really small things. It's like, okay, who gives a. Let it, you know, move on. And I'm just not going to put that charge because it really doesn't matter. You know, it's not that.
- [30:35]
B
In your values, though?
- [30:36]
A
Yes, in my values. It's not that big a deal.
- [30:38]
B
It might be a big deal.
- [30:40]
A
Maybe I'm not. No, I'm not minimizing any of it. I'm saying look at it right there are, there are those. Let bygones, bygones, Shit happens. Okay, got it. Move on. But if somebody's coming at you and does something malicious to really break your trust and, or work you over, whatever phrase you want to use. But I think there's a fundamental that I don't want to step over where, you know, sometimes that forgiveness aspect of it is what creates a really powerful future. So, you know, when we look at sometimes things that happen that go off the rails, if we can come back to that forgiveness component of it, it shifts how we go into the future. Whether it's in that relationship or that relationship's done never to, you know, come together again. Forgive it, let it go, honor the wound that it left, learn from it, whatever that might be. But I refuse to hang on to that resentment, that anger, because at the end of the day, life is going to happen and you are going to. Somebody's going to take advantage of you, somebody's going to break your trust, whatever the story is going to be. I mean, this many years later, it's happened. You know, number of times I look at it, I go, I am a really slow study because I see the pattern.
- [31:53]
B
You know, don't step over that, cowboy. Because you know what? You also see the good in people. And that's like, I don't want you to ever lose that. I mean, I do too. And, and, and, you know, yes, you can see yourself as being, you know, screwed over, bent over, whatever, but we also have to know again, back to, to your Point is that where we were a party to that.
- [32:15]
A
So there's, there's one fundamental. As we kind of. Yes. Where we take responsibility for. There's one breakdown that I have and that is I have a difficult time trusting our government. I'll never trust our government again, ever. And, and there is some part of it where, you know, they, there's such a shit show. They've messed so many things up and it's like, okay, what do I do in that scenario? Right? Like, I can't, I just can't take it on. It is what it is and there's nothing to forgive. And I certainly am not going to forget. There are some scars and some wounds real because of decisions and policies that made no sense. And we were at the effect of. I don't know what to do with that one because that one just pisses me off. But I don't think I carry some. I guess it's a button that's easily pushed for me, but I don't operate on top of it. I guess that's, that's good.
- [33:12]
B
But I, I think what, what, what really came for me over the last four or five years is that the word trust got really hijacked. Trust the science, trust the government, trust the process. Trust, trust, trust. So the word trust and the other word that got hijacked was safety. And for me, those two things, when you're not a critical thinker and you just trust the government, trust the science, and you're like, wait a sec, this doesn't make sense. So the other piece of that trust and that forgiveness is was I able to navigate through my own critical thinking and not just blindly trust what I was being told or, or what people are being told in, in the mainstream media or like, think about it, even in groups or people who are looking to, I don't know, find solutions to things even if you're given. For me, the first answer is never the right answer. I never trust the first reaction. I always go, oh, that's interesting. And then I want to layer deeper, another layer deeper, another layer deeper. Like, to me it's like, trust the science. Well, science is not fixed. That's an ongoing thing. Like trust the whatever. Like, I heard a lot and I do say a lot, trust the process. Like, to me that's an unknown. So there's an opening about trusting that. But for me, whenever somebody's telling me to trust something, trust the government, trust it safe and effective, trust this, trust that. The first thing I go is, so my, my, my filter is To. To not trust. But that's critical thinking.
- [34:43]
A
That's a play on words. And I don't want to go off the rails here, but, you know, it's like anytime somebody goes, trust me, it's. It's. That in itself is a flag. Right. Like, trust me. And, you know, it's like somebody that says to be honest with you.
- [34:57]
B
Okay, I know, right?
- [34:59]
A
Is that because the other times you weren't like. So it is funny play of words, isn't it? So anyways, I think that we beat this one up pretty good. We've unpacked it. I don't know that I would finish with anything profound other than just remember. One thing is, I think is that we forgive primarily for ourselves first. There are certainly those occasions where somebody is seeking forgiveness and it's for them that we forgive them. But most often, or. I don't know, I don't want to quantify it, but very often we're forgiving somebody else for ourselves, not for them. And we don't even have to say out loud, we forgive you. It's letting it go by that through that forgiveness mentally.
- [35:43]
B
Yeah. Unless that person needs to hear the words, you know, because they're in. Like the guy in our. In our shrinking show, you know, the guy that was the drunk driver that killed the mom, is that he needed to hear the words and he. One of them could say it and the other one couldn't. But again, that was him needing that for himself. So I think, again, back to the values. Back to what it is that you need. What is. What are you willing to do to put yourself in this situation? How vulnerable are you willing to be? Can you say authentically and truthfully and from your heart that you're sorry when you may have trespassed against someone you know?
- [36:19]
A
Fantastic, Stephanie. Thank you.
- [36:22]
B
Well, I'm not sure that was fun, but that was fun.
- [36:28]
A
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening. If you found value in the podcast, please take the time to rate and review and share with others. Share with your friends as it is my goal to always improve and to provide the highest value for you, the listener. If you have any comments, suggestions, or questions you'd like answered, please email me at c. CEO@raincanada.com. that's CEO@reincanada.com. i look forward to hearing from you. And until next time. Patrick. Oh.