Mindset Matters - Episode #171 - Is Life Even Fair?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Everyday Millionaire Episode Title: Mindset Matters - Episode #171 - Is Life Even Fair? Release Date: February 6, 2025 Host/Authors: Patrick Francey and Stephanie Hanlon

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Introduction

In Episode #171 of The Everyday Millionaire, host Patrick Francey engages in a profound discussion with his wife, Stephanie Hanlon, an Olympic mental performance coach. Titled "Is Life Even Fair?", this episode delves deep into the multifaceted concept of fairness, exploring its implications in personal relationships, business negotiations, and the broader socio-political landscape. The conversation emphasizes how individual perceptions of fairness shape our interactions and overall life experiences.

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Defining Fairness

Stephanie Hanlon initiates the conversation by highlighting the pervasive use of the word "fair" in today's discourse, particularly in politics. She expresses frustration with its frequent invocation by politicians to justify various narratives, such as "fair trade" versus "unfair treatment by corporations."

Stephanie Hanlon [01:05]: "The word fair kind of fires me up a little bit sometimes."

Patrick Francey concurs, distinguishing between "fair" and "even," and explaining how these terms are often conflated, leading to misunderstandings.

Patrick Francey [04:58]: "Is life even fair or is life even or is life fair? Two different things."

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Fairness in Personal Agreements

The hosts use a hypothetical scenario inspired by Chris Voss's Never Split the Difference to illustrate subjective fairness in agreements. Stephanie presents a situation where she lends Patrick $50,000 at 20% interest, which he honors by returning the principal plus interest after turning the money into a substantial profit.

Stephanie Hanlon [02:37]: "And I say, okay, that's fair. It's short term money. I understand your lost opportunity cost... So 20%, okay, that's fair. Is that fair for you? You're good with 20%, I'm good with 20%."

However, when Patrick returns an unexpected profit of $5 million, Stephanie questions the fairness of the deal, even though Patrick fulfilled the agreed terms.

Stephanie Hanlon [03:50]: "You made $5 million off of my 50 grand. That's not fair."

Patrick defends the agreement's fairness, emphasizing the risk he took and the fulfillment of the contract.

Patrick Francey [03:50]: "If I don't think it's fair, then I should have not done the agreement... I honored the agreement. If I don't fair, then that's my being, I don't know, a liberal."

This exchange underscores how fairness is perceived differently based on individual expectations and outcomes.

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Fairness vs. Evenness

Stephanie elaborates on the distinction between "fair" and "even," arguing that striving for evenness doesn't always equate to fairness. She suggests that fairness is subjective and deeply rooted in personal values and agreements.

Stephanie Hanlon [05:06]: "Fair is a very individual thing. We're in a negotiation, and the kind of the meme or the intention of a negotiation is that both parties walk away thinking it's fair..."

Patrick adds a sports analogy, highlighting how coaches' promises of fairness can be misconstrued as demands for evenness, leading to dissatisfaction despite the intention of merit-based rewards.

Patrick Francey [06:22]: "If you down right to, like, the sports Example, fair and even are two different things."

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Fairness in Politics and Society

The conversation shifts to the political misuse of "fair," with Stephanie criticizing how liberal governments leverage the term to advocate for policies that may not align with individual meritocratic values. She expresses concern over how political rhetoric manipulates perceptions of fairness to garner support.

Stephanie Hanlon [08:20]: "We have to be mindful about what we believe to be merit based and who's going to be contributing, who's going to be making the decisions right now."

Patrick echoes these sentiments, discussing the potential negative impacts of equating fairness with government intervention, which can stifle entrepreneurship and individual contributions.

Patrick Francey [12:14]: "We're being gaslit when it comes to things... We're being shown how things are happening."

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Fairness in Personal Relationships

The hosts transition to discussing fairness within their own relationship, using personal anecdotes to illustrate how perceptions of fairness can vary between partners. Stephanie highlights the importance of communication and mutual agreement to prevent feelings of unfairness.

Stephanie Hanlon [09:57]: "If we're always wandering around and the only time we're happy is when it feels fair, it's feeling fair to you and, or you're determining."

Patrick discusses the balance between personal fulfillment and fairness in partnership, acknowledging that personal sacrifices may be perceived as unfair but are integral to maintaining a harmonious relationship.

Patrick Francey [15:24]: "If I'm doing what I love to do, which lights me up as a human... but if it shows up as not fair to you, that's interesting."

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Negotiation and Fairness

A key segment of the discussion revolves around negotiation strategies and the inherent subjectivity of fairness. Stephanie emphasizes that successful negotiations often leave both parties feeling they've gained while acknowledging slight advantages over the other.

Stephanie Hanlon [31:22]: "When you look brought up, you know, taxation, for example, we have taxation without representation in Canada, which is ridiculous."

Patrick introduces the concept of viewing possibilities rather than fairness, suggesting that focusing on potential outcomes can mitigate feelings of victimhood.

Patrick Francey [21:36]: "If fair is one of our values, then it's like 50% of a time I'm going to be a victim because life isn't fair."

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The Impact of Fairness on Mental Health and Success

Stephanie and Patrick discuss how an overemphasis on fairness can lead to a victim mentality, limiting personal growth and resilience. They advocate for a mindset shift from seeking fairness to embracing possibility and meritocracy.

Patrick Francey [29:28]: "If fair is one of our values, then it's like 50% of a time I'm going to be a victim because life isn't fair... my commitment this year in 2025... my word is possibility."

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Concluding Thoughts

In their closing remarks, Stephanie and Patrick reaffirm the importance of understanding and defining fairness on an individual level. They encourage listeners to reflect on their personal definitions of fairness and how it influences their relationships and professional dealings.

Stephanie Hanlon [34:12]: "It's not fair to a lot of people. A lot of people who have been in the industry a long time have been doing a lot of things who believe that they should be where you are..."

Patrick Francey [35:18]: "It's fair."

The episode concludes with a call to listeners to contemplate the word "fair" and its implications in their lives, urging a move towards personal accountability and open communication to foster genuine fairness in all aspects.

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Notable Quotes

• Stephanie Hanlon [01:05]: "The word fair kind of fires me up a little bit sometimes."
• Patrick Francey [04:58]: "Is life even fair or is life even or is life fair? Two different things."
• Patrick Francey [21:36]: "My word is possibility."
• Stephanie Hanlon [31:22]: "If we're always wandering around and the only time we're happy is when it feels fair..."
• Patrick Francey [29:28]: "If fair is one of our values, then it's like 50% of a time I'm going to be a victim because life isn't fair."

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Key Takeaways

1. Subjectivity of Fairness: Fairness is inherently subjective, varying based on individual perspectives and values.
2. Fair vs. Even: Striving for fairness does not always equate to achieving evenness, and conflating these terms can lead to misunderstandings.
3. Impact on Relationships: Misaligned perceptions of fairness can create tension in personal and professional relationships.
4. Political Manipulation: The term "fair" is often co-opted by political entities to advance specific agendas, which may not align with true meritocratic principles.
5. Mindset Shift: Embracing a mindset of possibility and meritocracy can mitigate feelings of victimhood and promote personal growth and resilience.

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Final Thoughts

Episode #171 of The Everyday Millionaire offers a nuanced exploration of fairness, urging listeners to critically examine their definitions and applications of the term in various aspects of life. Through personal anecdotes and thoughtful dialogue, Patrick and Stephanie Hanlon provide valuable insights into navigating the complexities of fairness, encouraging a balanced approach that fosters both personal fulfillment and equitable relationships.

Transcript

[Patrick]

Foreign.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Welcome to this episode of the Everyday Millionaire Mindset Matters podcast where I'm joined by my wife, Olympic mental performance coach Stephanie Hanlon.

[Francie]

Francie.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

In these episodes, Stephanie and I have a conversation about the different aspects of what we refer to as Mindset Matters because we believe that for those who are awake, we are living in and through the most impactful time in history. Your view of the world is the filter for how you will experience the evolution and changing dynamics of it. Our intention is to provide you with ideas, nutritious food for thought, and some tools that you can use to help you in being your greatest self and living your best life. Listen in. Enjoy.

[Francie]

Stephanie. Episode 170.

[Patrick]

That's crazy.

[Francie]

Yeah, over three years we've been doing this.

[Patrick]

Yeah, good for us. I mean, that's right there.

[Francie]

Resilience, Resilience. But I've got a four letter word I want to talk about today.

[Patrick]

Starts with F. Oh, hey, this is family hour.

[Francie]

Okay. The word is fair.

[Patrick]

Oh, that's a big one.

[Francie]

That's a big one. You know, and what got me kind of fired up about this most recently is all of the politicians talking about how things have got to be fair, you know, how things aren't fair. You know, when you're in the kind of that NDP world without making a politics. But when you are in that kind of further left side of the equation, it's all about things being fair. And that's the narrative that they use. You know, the rich corporations aren't fair and nothing's fair. And then there's fair play, fair trade. Fair trade. But interesting. It is fair trade. So the, the word fair kind of fires me up a little bit sometimes. And because over the years, you know, I've often been caught in my own, you know, narrative around certain things about what isn't fair. So what tweaked me to the word was, you know, whatever it was three or four years ago. Four years ago. I read, when I first read the book, never split the difference with Chris Voss, he actually used an example. And it's some version of this, by the way. It's not the exact example, but the thought process was, this is that let's say I lend you $50,000 and I say to you, Stephanie, lend me 50 grand and I'm going to pay you 16% on that money for a maximum of one year. But whether I use it for three months, six months, nine months, whatever time I'm going to give you for the full year. 16%.

[Patrick]

What if I say I want 20%.

[Francie]

And I say, okay. Then we look at that and I go, okay, that's fair. It's short term money. I understand your lost opportunity cost all the rest of it. So 20%, okay, that's fair. Is that fair for you? You're good with 20%, I'm good with 20%.

[Patrick]

So our agreement is one year, 50 grand, I get my 50 grand back and 20% on top of that. Got it. Fair. Got it.

[Francie]

You're happy. Okay. Now I take that 50 grand and I turn it into 5 million.

[Patrick]

Wow.

[Francie]

And I come back to you and I give you your 50 grand plus 20%. It's not uncommon in different scenarios. Not this. And by the way, I Wish I had 50 grand that I could turn into 5 million. But this is the example and the point of it is, is that somebody comes back and goes, well, that's not fair. And I go, well, what do you mean it's not fair? I paid you your 20. I know, but you didn't tell me you're going to go make $5 million. And I go, and that's not fair. I go, well, I didn't know I was going to make 5 million. I took the risk of 50 grand plus interest and you agreed to it. So we said it's fair. Well, yeah, but not really. It's not really fair. I mean, you made $5 million off of my 50 grand. That's not fair.

[Patrick]

Yeah, that's a, to me, that's a fine line because we had an agreement and if I don't think it's fair, then I should have not done the. Made the agreement because the risk is you could have lost it all or made $10 million. But I went in with the agreement that I was going to get my 50 grand back plus my. Plus 20%. And you honored agreement. If I don't fair, then that's my being, I don't know, a liberal.

[Francie]

But the scale of fair changed a little bit in somebody's mind. My point of this is that if we look at that particular scenario, we both agreed that what was fair, but it was an individual thing. Then as soon as somebody seemed to really benefit from that agreement, it becomes not so fair. Whether that's somebody really truly feels that way or they're, whether they're trying to renegotiate, pull a trump and go, well, that's not fair. But the point is that stare is such an, an odd word, isn't it? We wrap spare around it. So we were joking earlier and I go, life is, is life even fair? And you come back and be. And you go, okay, but are you talking about is it even or is it fair?

[Patrick]

Totally. Like, think about it. Those are two different words. So is life even fair or is life even or is life fair? Two different things.

[Francie]

But here's where people get confused as to. Let's just unpack this. This is my view of the world, right? So we have this word called fair, and then we have even. So in the context of, you know what will. And this isn't meant to be political. So if you're listening to this, this is. I'm only using it because it seems to be the most appropriate example I can come up with right off the top of my head. So when you look on the kind of socialist world, things need to be fair, but are they really saying they need to be fair or are they playing with the language? What they're really saying is that things should be even. And just because it's even doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be fair. So fair is a very individual thing. We're in a negotiation, and the kind of the meme or the intention of a negotiation is that both parties walk away thinking it's fair, where both parties walk away thinking that they've taken advantage of the other person just a little bit. Right? So that's. That's usually the kind of the joke about a negotiation when. When the party split from the table and they walk away going, yeah, I think we caught up a little bit, you know, so that's good. That's fair. Right. So that's how fares determined. But it could be six of this and six of that. That's even. But it may not be fair.

[Patrick]

Yeah, it's a really good point because there are two different things. And I think the way that the English language gets misinterpreted or misconstrued, for example, to your point around what's fair? It's. I think, you know, I use the example all the time with hockey and hockey coaches. Like, they'll talk to the parents and the kids. You know, maybe there's that superstar on the team and maybe some average players, but the coaches say, we're gonna, we're gonna make the ice time fair. And then the parent hears, well, my kid's gonna get the same amount of ice as the superstar or the kid that's gonna score the goal in overtime or whatever. But that's not what the coach said. The coach said it's going to be fair, not necessarily even. So if you down right to, like, the sports Example, fair and even are two different things. I don't, I would rather have my kid on a team with a coach that understands that there's certain levels of contribution that need to be rewarded and certain levels of teammates that need to play their role. Now that to me is meritocracy. That's merit. It's a merit based conversation. So when you look brought up, you know, taxation, for example, we have taxation without representation in Canada, which is ridiculous. Like they're imposing taxes on people like us. Basically the middle class, upper, maybe upper middle class, but we're kind of middle class folks. I mean we're sitting here and you've got, you know, in Toronto and you've got the cars out the back of your head and you know, we've had amazing experience and hanging out here that we get to spend on time here. Is that fair for the people that maybe for that can't afford to go to Toronto for a birthday party, Is that fair? How do you, how do you determine, like when you're looking at something from the outside and you're judging it and saying, well, I can't have that, so it's not fair to me. That's victim mentality.

[Francie]

You know, what's not fair is when, you know, politicians spend our tax money and we don't have a say in the matter and then they are not held accountable. That' not fair.

[Patrick]

Exactly.

[Francie]

The, the word fair is kind of what I wanted to bring up today because it causes, you know, certainly a lot of disagreements and a lot of views of the world because somebody, you know, fair is a very personal thing. What you think is fair has to be, it's almost, I don't know, gosh, is fair a feeling? You know, is it, you know, an intellectual, you know, the thought process of what is fair. So we have to come to a conclusion of what feels fair to us in some circumstances, which is different than even the reason that it's a kind of a mindset matters convers at least for from my perspective, is that it really causes some disagreements, it causes adversity in relationship. You know, I look at what's going on politically and their use of the word fair and it kind of bothers me. I go, that's not fair. And who is a politician to say what's fair for me and what are they basing it on? So they look at whatever charts they look at. I don't know, is it just because they look at, okay, well, this person may vote for me if he thinks it's fair. I don't know, and I use politics a lot in this because that's really what got me going on the conversation about what is fair and what's not fair. So then, you know, the, the point of what's even is not necessarily going to be fair. And, and so we have to wrap our mind around. So I don't exactly even know where I want to go with the conversation. I just know that when we think about the word fair, it really has a lot of connotation around it and it's getting thrown around a lot, or it seems to get thrown a lot around a lot. And maybe that's just because it's in my head now. So it's like the green Volkswagen, you know.

[Patrick]

Right. You see it everywhere. I guess to my. Your point? To your point. Fair, even. Is it merit based? I mean, think about little kids going, it's not fair that I have to go to bed at 8 o'clock. It's not fair. So we're starting at really young ages deciding what's fair or not fair as individuals. And then we have a word like fair, whatever, being co opted by the government. Or, you know, safe is another word that's been hijacked. Words that are being hijacked. And to me that's manipulation in terms of languaging. That's a very much a psychological, psychological operation when it comes to taking words and then defining them and redefining them so that the majority or the masses create a groundswell around let's fight for what's fair. And how do we do that if we don't know what's going on? It's like Alberta, I've been really following this whole thing right now with Trump and Danielle Smith, is that she's saying, from an equalization standpoint, why is Alberta sending all this money to the eastern provinces? And the eastern provinces are, you know, not sending money back? Or how is it that we're, we're creating this equalization when it's not equal? So there's fair, there's even and there's equal. So what we've done is we've co opted these words and expressed them through our values or what matters to the masses at that time. I think from a liberal government standpoint, they are speaking, they're pulling the heartstrings of people saying, you know, well, we're fair, it's going to be even. And the Green Party, you know, we're all this and we're all that. And then you look at the Conservative Party or the more centrist I mean, the, or the sea, the, the People's Party with Maxine Bernier saying, no, we got to talk about merit, we got to talk about investment. We got to talk about what is the ROI on the things that we're doing. This is not about fair. If you're not pulling your weight and it's not for no reason, and maybe something in your circumstances, you know, has changed or something, and we get that and there's a safety net put in place for that. But I think what's happened is it's gone so far to one side with this liberal government that people like us that are just going, I just want to work hard. I just want to pay my bills, take care of my family, pay my taxes. I just want to do what's right for me, my family and my community. That's what's being, I think, what feels unfair to people like us.

[Francie]

Well, no, I think it's just that when we look at it again, let's, let's bring it down so we talk about government. There's nothing fair about the government in my world. But that's, you know, that's just the government issues are so much in our face right now, given that we don't have a government, at least a federal government. Ontario is about to lose their provincial government, while Ford goes into another three.

[Patrick]

Months that we've been without a government because of this, whatever is going on. So that could mean the whole country is without leadership. So to your point, I think we have to be mindful about what we believe to be merit based and who's going to be contributing, who's going to be making the decisions right now? And as families and as people that are contributing to the economy, how do we make sure that we are investing and still taking care of what we need to take care of because it gets skewed the other way. I mean, seriously, if the Conservatives don't get in in this next election, I mean, is anything really going to change? I mean, Polyev and his Conservatives are going to end up with this whole basket of stuff that has been created over the last nine years. Is that fair?

[Francie]

Well, let's, well, I think we got to quit talking about government because there's nothing about government that's fair, whether it be Liberals or, or Conservatives. It doesn't matter. You know, so let's talk, let's bring it down into, you know, the whole thing is about the word fair. So when I'm looking at, you know, where we see it show up and where we operate, people operate on top of it. So I might be operating on top of something that I don't feel is fair. So somebody, something and I go, gosh, that's not fair. You know, and I think about all of the, you know, years of business that I, you know, relationships that I've created and partnerships over the years and I'm going, oh, that's not fair. There's all sorts of things that come up. Fair. My point is, is that it's a very individual thing. And so it's good to determine what we're operating on top of in our view of fair. Otherwise we're walking around, maybe upset and, or put out because something wasn't fair. Let's bring it even into family home. So we're here, we're in Toronto. We had a great weekend. We came to Toronto to celebrate a friend's birthday. Awesome. And. But then you're going to Estonia. You're gone. Yeah. Okay, so you're going to be gone for a week. You're leaving me at home looking after the ranch with the dogs and all the responsibility that comes with that. You're like hobnobbing with the goober schmutzers that are, you know, a competition, you know, all the beautiful people and, you know, doing what you love to do, blah, blah, blah. And I'm staying at home. That's not fair. I have to cook, I have to clean, I have to do all my stuff, look after the dogs and the cat. And that's not fair.

[Patrick]

Isn't that an interesting point? Right, so we've been dealing with this for a long time. Is that when you think about that, what's also not fair is that in order for me to keep my living going and, and work and have a job and do what I love to do, it means I have to leave my home, my dogs, my husband. I don't get to cook and clean and get to take care of you and take, get my massive body slam with a hundred pound dogs every morning. Like that's not fair to me. And then what's even not fair is I gotta, I gotta share my paycheck with you.

[Francie]

Yes, you do.

[Patrick]

That's not fair. What if that's not fair to me? Right? So see how it happens? It's like through our own filters, we go, well, this isn't fair. Like, you know, I, I know what it feels like to get on an airplane and, and go away. And I, I get that pull in my heart. I go, what if something happens when I'm away or whatever, but I'M also doing what I love to do, which lights me up as a human, which makes. I feel, it makes me a better wife and dog, mom and, and partner on so many levels. But if it shows up as not fair to you, that's interesting.

[Francie]

It doesn't show up as not fair to me. And I. Especially the sharing the, the paycheck part of it. I mean, when you get paid, if you're going to support me in the lifestyle I become accustomed to, then you got to share. That's fair. That's fair. But you see, but think about it, but think about it in terms of couples, right? Like, forget about the kids, kids. Nothing's ever fair. But where do they get their, their view of the world of what's fair? But let's just talk about couples. You know, if he or she, you know, blue job, pink jobs. You know, there's lots of couples that live in that world where this is a blue job, this is a pink job, and it's not fair that I should do blue job or vice versa. You know, there's, there's this imbalance that occurs. That's not fair. It's all to say this. When we look at the word fair, it's a very individual, I think, and, and I'm open to having my eyes open to other ways of looking at the word fair, but fair is very individual, you know, and, and collectively you have to convince somebody else that what's fair for you is also fair for them or what the collective fairness is. How do you get, you know, thousands of people, hundreds of people, millions of people to agree that what is fair? I don't think it can happen. Some will just say, okay, fine, whatever, that's fair. Sure. You know, that's fair. They'll, they'll, they'll not fight for what it is, you know, and not that they should, but what I'm saying is, is that it's a very individual thing and how do we get to what is fair? So let's go back. What brought this all up is the use of the word fair and the realization that fair is very individual. It's hard to. It's an. I think it's an overused word. Maybe that, maybe that's what I'm trying to say. And if we are always wandering around and the only time we're happy is when it feels fair, it's feeling fair to you and, or you're determining. So, for example, you say, well, no, it's fair that we have these social programs. I think it's Fair that we have social programs. I think it's fair that we support those who are not able to whatever, for whatever reason, support themselves. That's society. It takes a village. I get all that part of it. I have no problem with that. But then again, that's my view because I believe from, you know, my view of fair is morally and ethically in alignment with those social programs. Now, if I was that type of individual that says, no, these social programs suck, I've worked my ass off. Why am I supporting somebody who's too lazy to get off the street? That's not fair. So it's a word that gets tossed.

[Patrick]

Around and I know that it creates divisiveness again. And I think that's the whole point of it, Right?

[Francie]

Well, that's not the point of the word fair. I think that's how. No, that's not the point of the word fair is to create defensiveness. I think that's the result of politicians and individuals who. And it doesn't necessarily be politicians. It could be businesses, corporations, all those kinds of things that are trying to impose what they think is fair. So this becomes a values conversation. And when we think about, if you don't honor my values, then nothing you do is going to seem fair. We're not going to get along because if we don't honor, honor the similar values monetarily, for example, and you say, well, no, I'm going to spend money on extravagant things because I think extravagant things are fun. And I'm going, no, we're not going to spend money on extravagant things because we have to plan for the future and have a safety net and offer. And then the next thing you know, we're going, well, this isn't fair. And because we're not aligned in those particular values. So what tweaked me to this whole conversation was again, when I read the book, you know, never split the difference with Chris Abbas, and he brought that whole topic up about what is fair. And since I read that book, whatever, again, it was four or five years ago, every time I hear the word fair used, I don't use the word fair very often that I'm aware of. I may, but I, I don't know that I do. My point is that every time I hear the word, it has a different connotation for me now because I'm looking and listening to, again, a lot of the political rhetoric that's going on. And what is fair, the planting of seeds is these corporations are taking advantage of us. That's not fair. We need what's fair for you? Fair, fair, fair. I think that was a whole liberal platform for a while, was this, you know, around what is fair? So my point is, is that I think it serves us to really give some thought to the word fair and what it means to us and where does it show up where we think that something isn't fair, and then how do we view it? Is it because our values aren't aligned with whatever circumstances in fair, we walked away from negotiation and somebody didn't tell the truth or they misled us with information that's not fair. So we can all agree that that circumstance of being lied to, you know, whether it be by directly or lying by omission, is still lying. That's not fair. You know, not fully disclosing that's not fair. So there's probably lots of circumstances where it's. We can use the term that that's not fair, and most people would agree, but then we start to see cultural differences and the games that get played and in their. In certain cultures, you know, all fair and love and war, as they say. I don't know where I'm going with all that. What's your thoughts?

[Patrick]

Well, that was a pretty good diatribe there, cowboy. So I hear you and I think what's interesting and what kept coming up as you were talking is that if fair is one of our values, then it's like 50% of a time I'm going to be a victim because life isn't fair. Like, I see it in sport, I see it in business, I see it in life. And if I'm looking for fair, then I believe I'm limiting myself to what's possible. And to me, my commitment this year in 2025 and, and, and really thriving. My word is possibility. And if I'm thinking that through the filter of fair, yet my word is possibility, then I need to bust any, you know, any definition that I have about what's fair or not fair, because that's limiting. If I'm going to seek to what's fair, it means I'm calling myself average, or I'm striving to be mediocre, or I'm trying to be the same as someone else. And I don't want that. I think even the sovereignty conversation or the individualization conversation is being hijacked because we're being told that we're all the same and everything needs to be fair. It needs to be even. And to me, that is dangerous because it removes our creativity, it removes our curiosity and human Nature, especially for us that are driven to be entrepreneurs or people that are individualized in the sense of having a social conscience and knowing that the fact that we create businesses and can, can make money and we have that capitalistic sun point means we can employ people. Maybe it's not fair. We actually knew somebody that would not buy the car that he wanted because as the owner of a business, because he didn't want to drive up to, you know, his own business and make his staff jealous so he didn't have to pay them more or something. So there's also the reverse of that is like, okay, so dial down or pretend that you're not making a huge contribution financially, whether it's through taxation or through what, what you're doing to create jobs. But then you're using people on the other side. And to me that's, that's really manipulative. And it's not really, I think what this conversation is about. I think what happens is that if we tell the truth and we step into our creativity, our entrepreneurism, our ability to create and have free thought and critical thinking, then there's never going to be, it's never going to be fair. I think what happens is that it creates a split around, okay, so do we have the opportunity to live in a merit based or a meritocracy, a merit based society that what we give we get in return and then we can have a ROI on that investment and then through that can we honor the social programs that we need to put in place without making people victims and dependent on, on these social programs. And I think that's what's going to happen right now. Sorry to bring it back to government, but that's what's going to happen in this, in this transition of power is that many people have been really dependent on the social programs, but the social programs are paid by your and my taxes, right? So we're going to reduce taxes. That's what they say they want. But what happens, the effect of that is it's going to downgrade the social programs and people are going to get hurt. And that, that's a scary thing when it comes to trying to make things fair.

[Francie]

So there's a fundamental. You said a lot, you said a lot. So I want to kind of unpack a couple things that I picked up on in what you said. First off, I think you make a really good point, is that when things aren't fair, there's always, when you're not, when you're feeling things aren't fair, there's always going to be one side of it that is a victim. So that's, you know, or the lack of fairness is often will make somebody a victim. Somebody will ultimately end up being a victim to an unfair deal. Right. Something that happens to them, they're a victim to it again, you know, lowering taxes and government in the same sentence, by the way. I don't think that ever happened, but maybe so. You know, I think what showed up for me in all of this conversation, I'm glad we talked it through. So I hope somebody still listening. And that is this that we all look for is fairness. But fairness comes from an agreement. I believe. Now we go back to the original. You know, I lent you 50,000, I made 5 million, you made 20% on 50 grand. You walk away, go, well, that's not fair. But the reality of it is is that you're pissed off because I won on that 50 grand, made 5 million and you've determined now that it's not fair. But you were, it was very fair when I was willing to pay you 20% on your money. Now would it have changed anything if I would have said to you, well, and that wasn't the deal. So if I would have said, well, I'm going to invest this 50 grand, I'm going to pay 20%, I could make 5 million on this deal or I could lose it all. Do you want the 20% or do you want 2% of the potential deal?

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Francie]

Okay, but you risk the 50%.

[Patrick]

No, the 50 grand. The 50 grand.

[Francie]

The 50 grand.

[Patrick]

20%. Yeah, I got it.

[Francie]

And then now you're making a decision from a different place and then you lose your 50 grand and then you're going to go, well, that's not fair. I lost all the money. You lost nothing. You know, do you understand? So my point is around all of fairness is that if we go into it with number one, a broken agreement that would be considered by most people's standards not fair. Where the lack of fairness occurs is when we don't have over any control over what happens with us. And there's no, we have, we don't have a structure around it. So we don't, you know, so all. It's like the government saying, well, we're raising taxes xyz for no other reason than we misspent all the money and now we're going to extra tax. Okay, we, we say that's not fair. We haven't agreed to that. But in some regards we have agreed to it because that government is elected and we agreed to let the government run the country, good, bad, or indifferent. That's an agreement. So are they breaking in agreement? No. But are, you know, is it, is it fair that they're stupid? No, it's not fair that they're stupid, but we have to put up with it because somebody voted them in. So it's all about agreements and the victimness that can come with fairness. So what do we take away from this crazy podcast number 170?

[Patrick]

Yeah, you know, what's really funny that you brought up is that you're, you know, you're absolutely right when it comes to the decisions that are made outside of our control. And then we have to also understand that we can only control as much as we can. We can only prepare or plan as much as we can. And then we have to leave room for the magic. We have to leave room for. Maybe it would have been $10 million and I would still then have to honor the agreement that I decided to give you my 50 grand so that you could play with it and give me 20% on my 50 grand. That was the only agreement. That's where I see we're being really not just handcuffed, but we're being gaslit when it comes to things. And we're being shown how things are happening. And you know what, and you should be really mad about this thing that happened in the government or that thing that happened in the business. But we wouldn't have known that had we not been shown it or had been not been kind of told what it is that we should feel bad about or be available to. But we didn't agree to that. And I think that's what's happening is that we're being pulled out of what we've agreed to. And that's where I think it's. We're getting lost in our self esteem and we're getting lost in our, our self efficacy and our individualization and where we can contribute. And that to me is when this word fair gets prostituted, it gets bastardized, and it gets misused. Fair, equal, even all of those things, I think we have to bring it back to ourselves. What is fair for me, it's important.

[Francie]

To determine what is fair for you so that you can state it. So again, where the breakdown of this isn't fair happens and the result is, first off, you walk away feeling like a victim. So this is really, I guess, you know, what is the takeaway I was trying, you know, for the podcast, I want the listener to take away, you know, something some Food for thought and hopefully open up some new thought processes, if you will. So we think about when it's not fair. Are we just being a victim or was there assumptions made? Did we make assumptions or was there some unstated expectations? Those things will all result in the feeling of not fair. And then in terms of relationship, where are we communicating as a couple so that we in fact understand what those assumptions are so that they're not assumptions. What are the agreements that we have and that we're then feeling like it's fair? This is fair. You know, you and I, you, we joke about, you know, you going away, leaving me alone. So we use that as an example. Of course, none of that is true. It's just an example. It's all fair. And. And so the thing about it is that we have to step back from it and go, okay, are we operating on top of a story we're telling ourselves about what is fair or what is not fair? And if we don't stop to think about the word and realize that it is very individualistic. So if you're going into a negotiation, you may sit down and go, I just want this deal to be fair for both of us. And that's a fair statement. Okay, that's a good statement. We're opening up saying, I want this to be fair for both of us. That's you're starting from that place. And so that means that I may not agree with you and we may not be able to come to a conclusion of what is fair for both of us. In other words, will I walk away from the table feeling like I've taken advantage of you a little bit? Will you walk away from the table thinking that you've taken advantage of me a little bit? That's a fair negotiation, right?

[Patrick]

If you're a smart business person, I think that's a thing. But we also have to come down to the self esteem part of it and the self worth. Like every time there's something that's imbalanced and I feel like I'm a victim, that that's work that I need to do. Like, really, that is, I think, what's being imposed on us on so many different levels. But ultimately, I think this is a great conversation. I think it leads to also from a couple standpoint, is the ability to communicate and to honor the level of intimacy it takes to have a good relationship and to make sure that the other person also gets what they need. Even if it means that I have to put my knees aside for a moment and that in the moment may not feel fair. Right. But to me, that's. That's the life. That's the up and down, that's the negotiation. That's the. The truth and the intimacy of moving life and business forward. And I think I would love for, you know, for us to be a stand for that. I mean, I look at what we've created. This weekend on my way to Estonia, we were able to share a weekend with our dearest friends in Toronto for, you know, a really significant milestone birthday. We got to stay here. The Shangri La. Overhead, I see the CN Tower and I'm. We're in this beautiful hotel we used to live in the Shangri La downtown in Vancouver. And I realized that the gratitude that I have may never. I hope it never overshadows the fact that I'm so grateful that we've created the life that we have. And I'll never, you know, rub it in anybody's faces. Yes, is it fair? But we've invited. We try to make it such an inclusive lifestyle, but it may not be fair. We've had people be jealous and live and leave our lives because they didn't feel that, you know, we deserve the certain things. But if it's fair, and I'm being fair, I would never impose my values on another person. You know, I really look at what we've created. I'm grateful for it. I know how hard we've worked for it. I'm humbled to what. What it is that we've done and what you've done and what I've done and, you know, what do we do? We joke and do we go back and forth about me traveling and you having to take care of the farm and mow the lawn and whatever. But ultimately these are agreements that we make. And that's, I think, what equalizes the term fair or even or merit.

[Francie]

Yeah, we beat the word fair to death. I think we've done a pretty good job of beating it to death. But when you think about over the years, you know, you more than me even, you know, when you look at what you've done in your career, in your, you know, in that line of work, whether it be as a oiler skating coach or world and Olympic class mental performance coach, I mean, you've done a lot of things, and in that world, it's not fair to a lot of people. A lot of people who have been in the industry a long time have been doing a lot of things who believe that they should be where you are, yet you're there. That's.

[Patrick]

That's not fair. She did it wrong. What did she do? Yeah, right.

[Francie]

It's not fair. Okay, so let's leave everybody with the word fair to contemplate and see if it fires them up like it fires me up sometimes. I actually don't think about fair too much, but this one came up for me because it's being used as a. I don't know, a political platform. So governments right now makes me crazy. Anyways, that's fair. Okay, Stephanie, thank you.

[Patrick]

All right. That was fun.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening. If you found value in the podcast, please take the time to rate and review and share with others. Share with your friends as it is my goal to always improve and to provide the highest value for you, the listener. If you have any comments, suggestions, or questions you'd like answered, please email [e-mail] that's ceor e I n canada.com I look forward to hearing from you.

[Francie]

And until.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Until next time, Patrick goes.