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The Everyday Millionaire and Mindset Matters Podcast
Mindset Matters - Episode #199 - Are You Faking It or Just Fearing It? Busting the Myth of Imposter Syndrome
00:31:45
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign welcome to this episode of the Everyday Millionaire Mindset Matters podcast where I'm joined by my wife, Olympic mental performance coach Stephanie Hanlon. Francie. In these episodes, Stephanie and I have a conversation about the different aspects of what we refer to as Mindset Matters because we believe that for those who are awake, we are living in and through the most impactful time in history. Your view of the world is the filter for how you will experience the evolution and changing dynamics of it. Our intention is to provide you with ideas, nutritious food for thought, and some tools that you can use to help you in being your greatest self and living your best life. Listen in, enjoy. Hey there and welcome to Mindset Matters where we explore the thoughts that shape our lives and how to clear the ones that don't. Here's where we step into the practice of mind shui. Feng shui for the mind. It's not just about positive thinking, it's about purposeful thinking. And the mind Shui wei helps you clear the mental clutter, uncover hidden beliefs and realign with your truth so you can live with clarity, energy and purpose in all areas of your life. Stephanie, welcome. Hi hon. This is a cool topic. I'm going to share a story, as I like to do, give it context. So there's a woman named Claire. She's brilliant, she's accomplished, she's highly respected in her field. She's an architect. And not just in profession, but in personality. She builds ideas and teams and companies. She's one of the people, or what we would call taking something impossible and turning it into a plan and then doing it. And from the outside, Claire is successful by anybody's standards. She leads big projects. She gets standing ovations after her presentations. She has accolades that are stacked up like a deck of cards, maybe on her shelves, on her walls. But inside she's constantly waiting for someone to discover the truth. That she's not that good, she's just winging it. That her success is just luck, a little bit of timing and certainly some charm, but not so much talent. She dreads praise. She downplays wins. She mentally rewrites every compliment of as a fluke or somebody pumping her tires. And one night after landing a career defining contract, she's alone in her office, lights are down. Celebration. She's got celebration champagne, yet she can't bring herself to drink it. And instead of joy or real happiness, she feels a little bit of panic and what if I can't deliver? That's the message she's got. What if I Just got lucky again, she thought. So. She then looks up at a wall. There's a photo of a building she designed five years ago. And it was a difficult build, and by architecture standards, it's like an almost impossible structure. It actually won a bunch of awards. It changed a whole neighborhood, you know, even that part of a city. And it certainly brought her team together. They're very proud. And it saved one of her clients businesses. So she did all that. It wasn't luck, wasn't fluke. It was just good work, good vision, good leadership. But she can't own any of it. She's got and struggles with imposter syndrome. So what's your thoughts on imposter syndrome? I think many struggle with it and there's two sides to this. I'm going to unpack the other half of it in a minute or later in this conversation. What's your kind of take on imposter syndrome? You know, we talked a little bit about you because you've achieved a lot of different things. You're award winning in many things and you sometimes had trouble owning it. We talked about, you know, because here, when we connect the dots, it's connected to the hidden beliefs of not enough or, you know, where you're not, where we're not enough, and I'm not just talking about you, by the way, or we're not worthy. Those are the two hidden beliefs that support imposter syndrome.
- [04:38]
B
So I call it my inner fraud. You know, I've. I've had to make friends and make peace with my inner fraud. And I think I understand the imposter syndrome from a way of, you know, working in the performance psychology realm, whereby, you know, people that have never won a world or Olympic championship want to put themselves in this scenario or the avatar of being a champion, and what does it take to do that? But the truth is the imposter syndrome, I think for me and for many people that I've spoken to, and I think for you too, I think there's just a place where, you know, we're not raised in an environment many times where we're told that, you know, we're good enough or what we're doing is enough and our effort is enough and our results are real and they're tangible and they're ours. And so I don't know, I don't know where it comes from, but, you know, it comes from deep inside, like you say, from the limiting beliefs. But the imposter syndrome is also something that once it hits its crucible, its crux will turn into sabotage. And I think that's really what's important for us to unpack today.
- [05:44]
A
Well, yeah, so I think there's another side to that too, right? Which is in the case of Claire, in this story, she had achieved a lot. She was very successful, but her mental state was really quite complex in that she couldn't own it. She actually believed that she was going to get discovered as a fraud. And that's a fairly common thing with high achievers. You know, as we've done research and as we've talked to people, there's always a little underlying bit of that. It's not necessarily talked about a lot. It's like, okay, well, it's just part of what we can go through or what people go through, you know, so it's not like somebody's broken because they're struggling with imposter syndrome. Somebody like Claire achieved it, but, you know, has achieved a lot of success and still struggles with it. But let's consider, you know, what happens on the other side of it, you know, so when we're talking and kind of putting this podcast out there, we can identify imposter syndrome, and maybe somebody who's feeling success or is successful is going, yeah, no, I relate to this. But what about the individuals who. Imposter syndrome is a bit of a hidden belief, or maybe not even that hidden, but it stops them from having that level of success even though they achieve it. You know, so in other words, Claire, let's use Claire as an example. She was very successful. She was an arch, or she is an architect, lots of success. But what about the person who's an architect? Just as qualified, just as creative, but because of imposter syndrome, doesn't take action, can't keep moving because they think they need to learn more, do more, be more, meet more people, network more. You know, what, you know, what I'm saying is, so, oh, yeah, go take.
- [07:31]
B
More courses, get a bigger degree, get more letters behind my name, and then.
- [07:36]
A
Then, then I'll be ready. Then I'll be ready, right? Then we can do it. You know, so we're in this world of imposter syndrome. One end of the scale is, you know, it's hard to have a little bit of compassion or empathy for Claire because she's achieved all those things. You know, she's very successful. You know, she's dealing with her stuff. Well, that's your stuff. You know, quit whining about it kind of thing. Not that she is, but you know what I'm saying? Whereas Somebody who's wanting that is maybe looking at a Claire going, gosh, I'm as good as Claire, but can't pull it off because they're feeling, they're not ready. Claire's really qualified. I'm not. She has all the credentials. I need more credentials. I need more.
- [08:19]
B
If there's a person comparing themselves to Claire who's having imposter syndrome issues, and this person's comparing themselves to Claire, oh, yeah, I've been through that. I've had people put me on pedestals all the time, and I'm like, what are you doing? I'm still, I'm still you. I'm still terrified. I'm still, I, I'm just the least scared person in the room right now. But ultimately, when I think about imposter syndrome syndrome or the fraud, my inner fraud, a lot of it is because there's things that I'm doing in the world that have never been done before or don't have a, an external, whether it's an acknowledgement or a degree or a, something that, you know is based on external validation. So when you think about people that are doing things, whether it's someone like me or you or Claire that are actually keep nudging the world forward doing things that aren't normal, you know, like I've heard, you know, people say to me because my life is so complicated, well, that I must be a liar or I must be a fraud because they can't connect the dots. I'm going through that right now with a young man that wants to interview, interview me for a book. He's like, I can't connect the dots between NHL power skating coach and ice dance Olympic mental performance coach and real estate investor and business owner and CEO. And he's really trying to write my story, but he can't connect the dots. So what? Guess what? That left me feeling, well, I must be a fraud.
- [09:42]
A
You're a fraud. Well, yeah, I guess that does make sense. We, I don't know that complicated is the right word. Maybe, maybe. But when somebody asks me what I do, I now I either really keep it simple and talk about CEO, real estate investment network, or, you know, as we transition into other things, I, I, I go back to, I'm just a business owner. So that, that seems to explain a lot in somebody. In our case, in your case, even in my case, we do own different businesses. We do different things that aren't necessarily even connect, don't seem connected.
- [10:21]
B
Don't seem connected.
- [10:22]
A
You know, so we, and when you put Yourself in a space where you're a little bit more public, where you're putting your thoughts, your opinions, maybe whatever, out into the public space. You know, there's no doubt that there are people who would imply that we're frauds or that we're not that good or. And I think that's just the normal course of being in that space. You know, somebody wants to question me or make me prove it, I don't know. I. I wouldn't have a problem with that. But I can really see where that can shut you down. If you're feeling like you're going to be judged or if your peers are. If you're worried about. I don't know what. I don't know. It is a little bit of a mental gymnastics.
- [11:12]
B
Yeah. Beyond that. I think about when you're talking, it's like, oh, yeah, well, if you really are that dude, from a real estate standpoint, let me see your portfolio. Let me see your balance sheet. You know, those kinds of things. And it's like, how do we break through that? And we go, yeah, I could. I could show you that, or I could just look at, you know, you could look at my track record. You could look at my results. So also, when you say that, how interesting is it that as human beings, that we compare ourselves to so many other people and try to find something familiar to hang on to or to help us define ourselves when the truth is, you know, my mom always said that there's no other Stephanie Hanlon in the world, so you better be the best in the world at that. You know, keep figuring your shit out. Because there's nobody else. There's nobody else. What is it, 400 trillion opportunities for my mom and my dad to get together to, you know, spit me out? So there is no other. There is no anyone else like me, Right? There's no one like you. There's no one like anyone listening to this podcast. So how dare we minimize our gifts and our talents and our uniqueness and our. Our individuality and our sameness and our collective humanity? How dare we? Right? Like, why is that even a thing?
- [12:31]
A
Well, I think it is a thing primarily because of the comparison. We've talked about that on different podcasts, right? So the minute we start comparing ourselves to that special moment in that we see that somebody posted that award or that win, you know, that, you know, moment, whatever. The moment on the beach, whatever, we're comparing ourselves, and that will then in fact say, well, I'm not. Gosh, if I was that good, I'D be there, I would have done that, I would be receiving that award, I would be getting those accolades. Even though you are in fact achieving a lot of things. I recently had, you know, as we were talking, you know, right now, in thinking about imposter syndrome, I think, you know, through my career, you know, over the past 40 plus years of being in business, I've had moments where I've felt the imposter syndrome. Having said that, most of it is the self doubt saying, well, what have you really done? You know, it's not like you've changed the world. You know, it's like. But when I consider where I've come from to where I am today and I really think about that, I can be really proud of my accomplishments. Although if I compare myself to maybe somebody else in a similar industry or somebody else that I admire, I go, I've achieved nothing. Which then minimizes what I have had to break through and get through to even do what we do on the podcast or do what we've done in business. I mean, I guess at the end of the day I could be an imposter in business or I can just own the fact that we have, I have a business or we have a business that's now 41 years old that is a, you know, that we run that business remotely from a distance with amazing team that we work with and inspire and are really up for the challenge of growing the business. So there's a lot of people that aspire just to do that, a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of solopreneurs who only wish that they didn't have to go in to open the door and run the team and be in the trenches of it. I did it for 20 years, so it's not like I've never done that. I've done that. And then I said no. So to me that's quite an accomplishment given what I wanted to do.
- [14:54]
B
So we did an exercise, I think at one of our workshops one, one time, and we said, you know, think about your 18 or 25 year old self, look back at that point and visualize what it would be like to look at your 40, 50 or 60 year old self. Could you have even imagined that you were as successful as you are? Like, go back to that time when it was so out of reach where something that you have wanted to do has come true and then reverse that conversation and say, okay, I'm here. Did my 18 or 25 or 32 year old self even imagine that I could have the life that I have right now. And when I go to that state and I realize that what we have and what we've created is beyond anything I could have ever imagined. I just want to keep growing, but I want to do it with a sense of such extreme gratitude because my 18 year old self was so confused and messed up and in the wrong faculty at university and doing all the wrong things and injuring myself and blowing shit up. But I never could imagined that I would be here.
- [16:05]
A
You know, to expand on what you said when we did that exercise, the exercise that we were asked to do many years ago was if you were your 20 year old stuff today self today and somebody said to you when you're 20 or 25 years old, they go, so you're going to be married to a cool cat, you're going to have a daughter and grandchildren, you're going to have businesses, you're going to be traveling the world, you're going to be award winning. You know, if somebody said that to you and you're going to, you're going to be making a lot of money, you would go, wow, yeah, okay, in my dreams maybe. Well, and so here you are and you've accomplished all of that and more. So think about it in that context is that how do we bust through the imposter syndrome to make sure that it's not limiting us so that we can truly own it and have gratitude for what we have in fact achieved and then continue to build and not let that kind of mental, not enough, not worthy imposter syndrome, the mental kind of gymnastics that we sometimes have to do to keep going, but to really let it go, to really own it, I think that's an important part of what we have to do so that it doesn't get in our way. So as we're, as I'm actually even saying these words, I'm wondering, is it something that's getting in my way? You know, what would be next for me? Even I'm always looking in the mirror that way. But what about you?
- [17:39]
B
Yeah, thank you for that question. But I'm wondering if it's the opposite. When I look at the people that I've met over my lifetime and have really been quite amazed at what they've created. But then I also see that there's a self centered or narcissistic side to it where I'm wondering if that's also a cover for the imposter syndrome, where they're trying so hard, they're so high achiever, they're so putting on the mask of, of being all that in a bag of chips all the time. 24, 7. That. Is that a part of the imposter syndrome as well? Is that a cover? Because it seems to be an extreme where I will underplay or, or kind of be more humble or access humility in a way that I don't acknowledge the fact that I, you know, I've won an award, for example. But I wonder if the opposite is true, that somebody is so over the top and some of it's manufacturing bullshit, but it's also covering up the same wound.
- [18:41]
A
Yeah, I don't know the answer to that one. I think it always comes back to the questions. Here's the thing is that we certainly have met and know not a lot, but we. We certainly have known a couple people that are in fact imposters, and they do a fricking brilliant job.
- [18:58]
B
I know, right? It's genius.
- [19:00]
A
You know, there is that phrase, fake it till you make it, and there's certainly truth in that. But where the intention is to fake it until you make it in terms of your learning and gaining the experience, I think the intention is different than the actual imposter who's just trying to take advantage of situations and, or make themselves perhaps grander than they are, or appear to have done more, have more experience and are more accomplished than they are. So that's, that's a kind of an imposter with the intention of deceiving or manipulation. That certainly there is that part of it. So I think maybe is there a place where even when you're struggling with imposter syndrome and you have in fact accomplished all those things, you know, that's probably the underlying thing, is that, you know, am I just faking it? Am I really that good? I think the questions we have to ask ourselves is in the reflection and saying, let's take a look. Claire, for example, in the story, she's going to look at the wall, she's going to see the award, she's going to see the building, she's going to consider the fact that all of those things, she was the center of, the core of the leader of. If you can step back and actually own that part of it and say, who else could have done this? And if the answer can then come back, I think that's a way to collapse the imposter syndrome. That would be one way. And then actually asking yourselves the questions, the questions that we need to ask ourselves is, what do we see as true? And is it true? What part of what we're thinking that we're an imposter. Writing down, okay, where am I really an imposter? And I think it would collapse it pretty quickly if, in fact, you have achieved and are doing the things. Things that you're doing. That's my own thought process around it. On the. On the Claire story. But on somebody's story who hadn't achieved that much, who was struggling and who has the Claire qualifications, but not the Claire achievements and is playing small because they need to learn more, do more, whatever their story is. Those are. I think it has to be collapsed if you recognize that you've got and are struggling with imposter syndrome. What's your thoughts on that? Kind of.
- [21:19]
B
Well, I think you need to realize for, you know, we can only go from our experience. But the fact that you. That imposter syndrome is even a thing. Like, how do we know that what's driving someone is imposter syndrome or high standards or excellence or whatever? Like, when you put on the jacket, like Michael Jordan said, you know, I put the zone on, like, a jacket, and I become, you know, this different player. There's avatars. You know, there's a really great book called the Alter Ego Effect. When you're working through something and you actually don't feel it, you can try something on. You can put something on, whether it's an avatar, a jacket, like Michael Jordan said, or Beyonce. You know, she has an avatar. For example, Sasha Fierce. Her name is like, she. She actually embodies a different avatar because when she's feeling insecure or like she's a fraud, she puts on this different Persona. And that's a real psychological gift and a trait that you can learn. I do it with the athletes a lot. I work a lot on their avatars and also on their. What they can put on or take off to put themselves out into the arena of exposure and judgment when they know they're going to get judged. You know, we were saying something today when we were joking around about, you know, doing two podcasts in a row and you get to wear the same shirt. And I'm like, why did I have to do my hair and change my makeup and put a different outfit on? Because the truth is, as women, we are more harshly judged on our appearance than men. What was this study that you saw somewhere where they did a whole bunch of news anchors or something and.
- [22:57]
A
Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. It was. It was. I didn't know if it was global or whatever channel. It was the news anchors. So male and female. Female news anchors at the time. Right? That's a pretty common thing. So what they did was the guy agreed that he would wear the same suit every day because they are, of course, news anchors there every day. And I recall that the suit was the same. He may have changed shirts, like white shirt, blue shirt, whatever the shirt changed, but the suit did not change. The woman anchor, of course, is changing every single day. A new outfit every single day. Yet the comments he received. 0 comments, 0 about his outfit, his suit that he wore every single day. And she received multiple comments on her outfit. And I want to say within that they tested with. Wearing the same outfit with different, different neck place or brochure brooch or whatever. Like they did some minor adjustments and people were looking for it, even their hair. So guys never, you know, somebody, you say, you know, Patrick, you're, you know, you're balding. Okay, that's, that's the extent of it. Okay, you're stating the obvious. But there for the whim female anchor, it was about her hairstyle, about the way she wore the dress and her, you know, her necklace was crooked. Like there was all sorts of just really weird, just judgments. And that was over the course of, you know, many months of doing it. So that's. Women get judged harshly.
- [24:36]
B
Well, which is. So brings us back to the imposter syndrome. Because if I'm not feeling good about myself, and you know, my, my friend's mom used to say, the worse you feel, the more makeup you gotta put on, because it's true, is that, you know, we are going to be judged. So if we're not willing to put on our avatar or put on, you know, something that can climb. Climb on top of our imposter, knowing that we're going to be judged, knowing that the focus is going to be on whether it's the female or the male or whatever. And be okay with that, right? Like, be okay with it. How do you climb on top of knowing, for me, for example, that the skaters are going to be judged in a way because it's a judge sport, for example, or I'm going to be judged on this podcast harsher than you are. So I spend a lot of time, you know, a bunch of time in the morning or whenever we're doing it, putting makeup on and doing my hair and deciding what outfit I'm gonna wear. And you, like, show up and you got the same shirt on.
- [25:31]
A
Yeah, but, you know, but you're. The comments are always. The comments I always get are that Stephanie is so good. Like, she's so clear I. I don't get those comments. So, no.
- [25:44]
B
Well, thank you.
- [25:44]
A
In spite of what you wear, you. You are, without a doubt, much smarter than I am.
- [25:50]
B
My point. But let me get to my point. I didn't mean to make it about physical appearance. What I wanted to make it about was that we're also bringing to every situation our history and where we've been judged before, where we've been criticized, where our parents have not supported us or whatever the story is. So building on that imposter syndrome, whether it's from a place of fraud or on the other extreme of the. Of the scale to be narcissistic, is that it's an affectation, it's a. It's a Persona that we build to survive. And I think that's where. I think it's so sad that. That we have to do that and. And the work to be authentic. The work, like with mind shui. What we're trying to do is to clear the clutter so that we can be our authentic self. People can be their true self so that we, when we're judged, we can be judged for who we truly are, not who we're pretending to be.
- [26:43]
A
Yes. And I think there's one other thing. As we kind of wind this down, there's one thought process that I got to. And there are some. I think everybody has certain gifts, and we've talked about that before, like, and we don't necessarily recognize them. It's like, how do you do that? You go do what? Right. So if that gift plays out where there's accolades or there's a lot of money, just because it's a gift, it's like, it's easy, you know, you don't even think about it. It's just, okay, well, I don't know how I do it. I just do it. I think if you are. I think there's a. There would be certainly a case for feeling like imposter if what you're doing seems really hard and miraculous to others and you just do it. You know, there may be. There may be a little bit of imposter syndrome that sneaks up in that scenario. And I guess the point of this conversation, from my perspective and why I kind of wanted this topic is because imposter syndrome is very common. It doesn't get talked about a lot because people have it and then they get through it. But I think the big lesson or the more important conversation in this is that where might the imposter syndrome be getting in your way? And that's the key. What are you really struggling with in terms of imposter syndrome and what the impact is on what you do. Don't do the action you take or don't take, where you maybe hide behind it or the feeling and where it maybe ripples out and impacts you in business or in career or whatever that might be. I think that's an interesting kind of perspective. And not just in business or career. I mean, I think it can play out as a parent, as a father, as a mother. Like, I mean, how many moms feel like I'm just not qualified to be a mom? I'm like, I have no idea what the hell I'm doing. I'm an imposter. An imposter mom. I don't know that I'm not a mom. But the point is, is that I think it could play out in a lot of areas of life and to recognize it and identify it and then collapse it just by looking at what you have truly accomplished. And you don't need to compare yourself to anybody. That's my thoughts and anything else you want to add to that before we wind this up?
- [29:03]
B
I do. My mom always said, would you rather be loved for someone you are not or hated for someone you are? And it took me a long time to understand that. That's that whole need to be liked conversation. So would you rather be loved for someone you're not? So you're putting a Persona or avatar or something out to the world and people are loving you for that, but it's not who you really are.
- [29:34]
A
That's. Yeah, that's a really. That's a good one.
- [29:37]
B
Isn't that interesting? But I would rather be disliked for someone I am.
- [29:42]
A
Yeah.
- [29:43]
B
Than love for someone I'm not. And I remember thinking that through and like trying to wrap my head around that as I entered the world that I'm in right now in world class sport and having to be true to myself and not fake it. Basically, I don't believe in the fake it till you make it belief system. So it's. I would rather myself and to help my clients fight to be accepted for who they are, warts and all, whatever it is going on, than to be loved and accoladed and celebrated for a lie.
- [30:19]
A
Interesting times, to say the least. Because we could go down this whole path because in the last. I think it was the last show, whatever episode that was, we're almost going. We're almost at 200 episodes, by the way.
- [30:29]
B
Oh, I know. We gotta have a party.
- [30:31]
A
Yes. At least that. So the. That's like four years we'll have been doing this.
- [30:38]
B
Good for us. High five, man.
- [30:40]
A
Good for us. Good for us.
- [30:43]
B
We're not imposters because now we've exposed everything from our. Our politics to our. Our wounds to our relationship.
- [30:52]
A
True, true. So true. Okay, well, let's wrap it up. And thanks for some good insights in there. I like that last one, and I'm gonna continue to contemplate that. Awesome. Well done.
- [31:06]
B
Thanks, son. That was fun.
- [31:09]
A
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening. If you found value in the podcast, please take the time to rate and review and share with others. Share with your friends, as it is my goal to always improve and to provide the highest value for you, the listener. If you have any comments, suggestions, or questions you'd like answered, please email me at CEO@raincanada.com. that's CEO@reincanada.com. i look forward to hearing from you. And until next time, Patrick O.