Mindset Matters - Episode #213 - The Secret to Courageous Conversations in Life and Business

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Everyday Millionaire and Mindset Matters Podcast

Episode: Mindset Matters - #213 - The Secret to Courageous Conversations in Life and Business
Host: Patrick Francey with Stephanie Hanlon Francey
Date: November 27, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, hosts Patrick Francey and his wife, Olympic mental performance coach Stephanie Hanlon Francey, dive deeply into the art and necessity of courageous conversations—especially as they relate to conflict resolution in relationships, business, and everyday life. Drawing on personal experience and professional insight, the couple discusses frameworks, mindsets, and actionable tools to help listeners navigate conflict with respect, maturity, and effectiveness. Their playful and authentic dynamic adds warmth and realness to the advice, making this episode especially valuable for those seeking growth in both personal and professional realms.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Redefining Conflict and Its Role

• Not All Conflict is Bad: Stephanie emphasizes that conflict isn’t inherently negative; it can be a sign of people owning their boundaries and opinions.
  “Conflict isn't a bad thing. It's actually people owning their boundaries, owning their opinions and having the courage to say, okay, this is how I feel.” (01:55)
• Avoidance and Fear in Modern Times: The hosts discuss how, particularly post-2020, many individuals shy away from conflict due to societal pressures such as being doxxed, judged, or canceled.
  “People are avoiding conflict because they’re afraid to be doxxed, judged, canceled, et cetera.” (02:54)

2. Agreements and Rules for Productive Conflict

• Importance of Pre-Set Agreements: Patrick advocates for establishing clear agreements before conflict arises, both at home and in business.
  “The first part of having good conflict resolution… is to have agreements in advance. And I think that's the first and… most important part of this…” (06:17)
• Examples of Personal Rules:
  • No one leaves during conflict (05:25)
  • No name-calling or personal attacks (05:32)
  • No compromising, only alignment (13:19)
  • Emotional regulation and respect are essential

3. Entering the Conversation Where the Other Person Is

• Empathy in Practice: The hosts stress the misstep of entering conversations from your own perspective rather than seeking to understand where the other person is emotionally.
  “The number one oversight I've seen people make… is we enter the conversation where we're at, which may be in a totally different place than the person the other person is at.” (08:49)
• Practical Example: Stephanie recounts a recent personal conflict rooted in miscommunication upon her return from travel, where emotional state and timing colored the interaction.
  “If you would have started with ‘I really missed you,’ it maybe would have opened my heart a little bit rather than to get into defense mode.” (11:20)

4. Distinguishing Alignment from Agreement

• Choosing Alignment Over the Need to Be Right: The couple highlights a powerful insight—alignment does not require agreement, and compromise isn’t always productive.
  “We don't compromise because compromise means that we're giving something up. But when you align, you're not compromising.” (14:23)

5. Rules of Engagement for Teams and Relationships

• Creating Psychological Safety: Agreements extend beyond couples to teams, where psychological safety comes from knowing disagreements won’t become personal attacks.
  “You can't be talking about… a client initiative and then get into a disagreement and look across the table and go, ‘Well, you’re an idiot.’” (16:13)
• Constructive Conflict: Sometimes, healthy debate yields better outcomes and higher performance. The goal is not to avoid conflict but to navigate it respectfully.

6. Emotional Regulation and Co-regulation

• Personal Accountability: Stephanie praises Patrick’s ability to regulate emotions before tough conversations and notes how this skill can be learned and applied.
  “That is a tool that I really admire in you. And I've been working on myself and I teach it a lot… emotional regulation is really, really important…” (28:19)
• Co-regulation in Relationships: The hosts touch on the idea of co-regulation—managing emotions together to achieve a positive outcome.

7. The Value of Conflict in Growth and Excellence

• Conflict as a Catalyst for Growth: Both hosts agree that conflict, when handled properly, can elevate teams and individuals and is essential for high performance, not something to shy away from.

8. Practical Tools for Courageous Conversations

• Prefacing Difficult Topics: Patrick shares how framing a difficult conversation as uncomfortable for yourself as well helps de-escalate defensiveness in the other person.
  “I sat down and I said, ‘You know, I have to have a really uncomfortable conversation and I don't want to have it, but I don't know how to deal with it. And it involves you.’” (25:51)
• Slowing Down in the Moment: Both recommend taking a breath before reacting, understanding your own triggers, and resisting the urge to “push back with equal force.”
  “So when we look at how do we handle conflict, are we prepared to deal with it? Have we trained ourselves?” (23:37)

9. Creating a Culture of Healthy Conflict

• Importance in Leadership: Leaders should welcome disagreement and create an environment where feedback is encouraged and not taken personally.
• Impact on Families and Organizations: Avoidance of conflict can damage relationships and block opportunities for depth and growth.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “If you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.” (19:51)
• “You can not agree and still align to move forward…” (13:19)
• “We don't compromise because compromise means that we're giving something up. But when you align, you're not compromising.” (14:23) — Stephanie Hanlon Francey
• “Seek first to understand, then to be understood.” (37:53) — Attributed to Stephen Covey and made the “golden rule” of conflict resolution by Patrick.
• “Conflict is a part of life. It's just going to happen… If you plan for it in advance, then you can start to through practice get better at it.” (31:07)
• “Sometimes, when you Go into those conversations and there's a little bit of conflict or spark or whatever. What's magic is on the other side of that. That's where growth is, that's where enrollment lives, that's where abundance lives…” (36:37) — Stephanie

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Timestamps by Topic

• [01:00] – Introduction to conflict and courageous conversations
• [05:25] – Their rules for personal conflict resolution as a couple
• [08:49] – Miscommunications: entering where the other person is
• [11:20] – Personal example of recent conflict and emotional state
• [13:09] – Rules of engagement, agreements, and language for teams and relationships
• [14:23] – Aligning without compromising, importance of mature relationships
• [16:03] – Conflict resolution in high-performing teams
• [21:34] – The "toolkit" metaphor and self-awareness in conflict
• [22:46] – Conflict competency and emotional control
• [25:51] – Courageous conversations: personal story of confronting gossip
• [28:19] – Emotional regulation and co-regulation explained
• [31:07] – Observing yourself in everyday conflict
• [35:12] – Creating environments that welcome healthy conflict
• [37:53] – Covey’s “seek first to understand” and wrapping up

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Final Takeaways

• Plan for Conflict: Set rules and expectations for how you'll handle disagreements before they arise.
• Enter Conversations Empathetically: Seek to understand before pushing your own viewpoint.
• Don’t Take it Personally: High-performing teams and relationships require separation of ideas from personal attacks.
• Alignment Trumps Agreement: It's OK to move forward without 100% agreement—alignment to a shared goal is more important.
• Emotional Regulation is a Superpower: Take responsibility for your response before entering difficult conversations.
• Conflict is Growth: Productive conflict, handled maturely, is a powerful engine for personal, relational, and organizational excellence.

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Hosts’ Closing Thought:

“Conflict, courageous conversations, seek first to understand.” (39:35)

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Welcome to this episode of the Everyday Millionaire Mindset Matters podcast, where I'm joined by my wife, Olympic mental performance coach Stephanie Hanlon. Francie. In these episodes, Stephanie and I have a conversation about the different aspects of what we refer to as Mindset Matters because we believe that for those who are awake, we are living in and through the most impactful time in history. Your view of the world is the filter for how you will experience the evolution and changing dynamics of it. Our intention is to provide you with ideas, nutritious food for thought, and some tools that you can use to help you in being your greatest self and living your best life. Listen in. Enjoy. Hey there. Welcome to the Everyday Millionaire and Mindset Matters podcast. Stephanie.

[B]

Hi, honey.

[A]

Okay, so we're going to kick it off. We don't always agree.

[B]

True.

[A]

A lot of people don't always agree with each other, whether it be in business, in work, in relationship, and that results in some form of conflict. You know, we have talked many times about divisiveness in society and polarity, and that's one big aspect of it. But let's put it this way. I want to talk about conflict resolutions. How do we deal with it in business, in life, as couples? And maybe conflict is too heavy a term, but I don't know what else to wrap around it. So we'll call it conflict resolution. And I'm going to add to it equals the need to have courageous conversations which shut people down. And it's why sometimes conflicts don't get handled. I don't know where to go with it. But anyways, let's talk about conflict resolution. You have a view of it? Talk to me.

[B]

Well, I think the biggest thing is that not all conflicts can be resolved. And I think, you know, over the last three to four to five years, I've really seen people break down in relationship, break down in business, the things that are happening. Because maybe we're not taught how to resolve conflict. Conflict isn't a bad thing. It's actually people owning their boundaries, owning their opinions and having the courage to say, okay, this is how I feel. This is what's going on for me. And do I have to, you know, be a right fighter to. To get through it, or can I hear your side of the story? And ultimately, what gives us the resolution that we want? Which is, for me, an outcome of maybe not full agreement, but some sort of relational accountability and understanding that we may have different opinions, we may have different standards, we may have different things that we want to work through, but can we Express ourselves. Because what I'm seeing, and it's even worse than I think before 2020, is that people are avoiding conflict because they're afraid to be doxxed, judged, canceled, et cetera.

[A]

Oh, it's. Yeah, it's terrible. And, and you know, I, I think that there's some fear in it as well, around the conflict because of how you get labeled. What we're hearing and seeing in terms of the censorship and the labeling that gets handled. And I mean, it's so ridiculous that everybody, I don't say everybody, but many. I, I just don't want to get into it because it's just not worth it. It's like, okay, I don't, I don't, I'm just not going to get into any kind of conflict about something, an issue, a social issue, a political issue. It's just not worth the battle, given the consequences. And you go, really? You know, what's the fight we're fighting. So that's one side of the equation. But what I'm talking about, or what I think I would like us to tap into is conflict that happens in, we can talk about in relationship, in the sense of a team, a business, for example, conflict within our family. I think that's a better topic as opposed to throwing it on the table and saying, okay, conflict. Given what's happening in the world today and the divisiveness and the polarity that's being created politically and values and reshaping and how our country is unfolding, I mean, those are creating conflicts. I mean, certainly there's countries that have conflicts. Many we're in. Canada's in a conflict right now with the US and think about that political conflict between two countries. I mean, it's big. And so we have all those. That's too big for us to take on. I mean, I have my views of that, but that's aside. So let's talk about, get a little bit pragmatic and thoughtful around this. Let's talk about conflict resolution with couples now, you and I.

[B]

That's so good. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so you and I have conflict often.

[B]

We do.

[A]

So we don't agree on certain things. You piss me off, I piss you off. But how is it that 30 plus years later we're still able to get through those and stay in a great relationship, a loving relationship, a respectful relationship. How is it we manage to do that? And so I think that the first part of conflict resolution is preempting conflict because you know you're going to have it in your relationship. What's the agreements that you have around conflict now? We have a couple of agreements around them and why don't you. I. I can give you my version of what some of our agreements are, but you go, you start.

[B]

Well, first of all, no one leaves. No one.

[A]

No one leaves. What does that mean? It means that you can't storm out the door.

[B]

You can't storm out the door, and if you do, I'll come chasing after you or vice versa. That's for me. That's the biggest one. No name calling. We don't ever call each other names. No swearing.

[A]

No personal. Lots of swearing. But no personal attacks.

[B]

No, no personal attacks. I f. Bomb quite much more than you do just because you know hockey. But anyway, I think the biggest one is just treating each other with respect. And the hardest part for me is making sure that I'm listening and seeking first to understand because I get more fired up than you do. You're more stoic, I'm more emotional. So I think it really is important for me to keep reminding myself is that we're committed to an outcome. We're not committed to the fight or being right. We're committed to an outcome even if we don't agree on the outcome. How do we create the resolution in that?

[A]

Well, I think there's a couple things. So first, I want to just expand on what you said. So what I led into this with and that we, I think are pretty good at. And it's taken a while. It's not like we sat down and had it all figured out. But, you know, if we're giving guidance to somebody, listening. The first part of having good conflict resolution in a relationship and whether that resolute, whether that relationship is, you know, as couples, as friends, as family, and ultimately even in business, is to have agreements in advance. And I think that's the first. And, you know, the most important part of this is knowing as adults we are going to have differences of opinion. We're going to have conflict of way things get done, timing, money, whatever the conflict is. But if we have an agreement in advance of how those conflicts are handled, then of course, you start to wrap a framework around it. And so we talk about, number one, you know, there's. We can't. It's not personal attacks. We can't make it personal. It's not intended to be personal. And we were. We're very good that way because we don't have that particular issue. We have a. I mean, you know, arguably a decent handle on, you know, the English language. So we're able to articulate things, you know, in a. In a powerful way. Sometimes that involves swearing. But my point is, you know, we have a command of the English language. How do we use it? We have agreements that we don't take things personal and that it's not personal jabs. I think that's a big part of it. The second is being able to enter the conversation where the other person is. And this is where you and I have recently bumped into this exact thing. So I'm trying to express to you what's going on for me, you make it about you. I'm trying to tell you it isn't about me. Listen. Or it isn't about you. Right. It isn't about you. It's about me. So I'm telling you, and I'm having to remind you, please enter the conversation where I'm at, not where you're at. I think this is such a powerful tool and thought process. You know, we both use it in our own coaching. So an example where we're working with somebody, we're asking questions so that we know where to enter the conversation. The number one oversight I've seen people make and I've made myself many times, is we enter the conversation where we're at, which may be in a totally different place than the person the other person is at. So we're not even in the same conversation. We're actually in two different conversations trying to resolve some conflict, and we can't get aligned on it. So then the argument escalates, the yelling escalates. And I, in my own philosophy, voices get raised. Yes, out of anger. Got it. But it's also, I believe, when somebody's yelling, it's because you're not hearing them, you're not being heard, or you're not being heard. You're raising your voice because you're not being heard, or somebody else is raising their voice because they're not being heard. So when we start to look at the kind of the. A little bit of the psychology and the emotions around some conflicts, how do we handle it without going to that place? And the first, I think one of the most important rules is really listening to know where that other person is at so that you're entering the conversation where they're at, not where you're at. Now, if somebody is coming at you, they've got the issue. You're getting caught off guard. Your immediate reaction might be, go, you know, go on to the offense and come back at them hard. But that's at a Point where if somebody's coming at you and you're finding yourself getting angry is then starting to be inquisitive to find out where they're coming from and trying to get into and align with their conversation as opposed to immediately yelling back or debating or getting into a fight about it. Does that. Am I. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, we can speak for ourselves. Even this morning, you know, we were trying to. I've just been. I've been away for two weeks. You know, I just get back from Finland and I'm on European time, and I'm tired and, you know, probably overwhelmed with unpacking and repacking and dogs and missing.

[A]

Yeah, because you're going now. You're going to Japan now.

[B]

I'm going to Japan in less than a week. And so I'm upside down and feeling guilty about that and feeling like I'm not a good wife and I'm not doing things. So then you come and say, you know, here's what's going on for me, and I filter it through. I suck as a wife. I'm not a good partner, and I right away just kind of go back into defense mode. And. And you had to remind me that this was not about me. You were just trying to tell me where you were at after being alone. Basically. You weren't alone. You had the dogs and the cats and, you know, the neighbors, travel and people. People. And you went to Edmonton and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you missed me. But you know what? I wonder if maybe, hey, I wonder if you'd have said this morning when you came in is, you know, I really missed you. Okay, think about it. If you would have started with that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It maybe would have opened my heart a little bit rather than to get into defense mode. And, you know, they mean maybe that's a conflict resolution skill that we can help people with, is that if you start when, you know, you love someone and, you know, you're working through some issues and, you know, it's not about the other person, and you need to clear and you haven't had a chance maybe to. To clear with a. A buddy or a friend or a partner or whatever, and then I come home and I'm ready to kind of dump everything that's been going on for me, maybe what the skill is that. And we've done this before, say, you know what? I really missed you, and here's what's going on for me. So I think if I'd heard that first, I probably wouldn't have gotten so defensive.

[A]

There you go. So conflict number one again. Enter the conversation where the other person's at. So I went up a notch. So I assumed that you were already in the same conversation. I was now. We unpacked it, we got to it.

[B]

We did, we did.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I mean, I feel much better now.

[A]

Yeah, Got it handled. Okay. So that's within the context of, let's say, a couple significant other even. But we have rules of engagement. That I think is the key part of it, you know, is rules of engagement. And if those rules of engagement are that we're on the same team, we just don't agree necessarily how our life is unfolding, how we're going to score goals, keep score, whatever that story might be. But we have to have some rules of engagement. And those first rules of engagement are whatever you come to the conclusion of, how do you need to approach. Okay, rules of engagement, you can't do it in public. Rules of engagement. You can't do it while I'm walking out the door. You're bad. We're bad.

[B]

I was so bad at that. I'm not anymore, but I was really bad at that.

[A]

Really bad. 11 o' clock at night, I'm trying to get to sleep, go to sleep. And you decide.

[B]

And I go, honey, can we talk?

[A]

There's a burning issue. Okay. So we got that resolved. We had to come to, oh, that was a conflict. So I finally had to say, you got to quit doing that. So we finally got to that part. So it's engaging and creating rules. Now there's a language that we can get to, whether it be as couples or as teammates, as business partners, whatever it might be. And that is a phrase that I don't know who was taught us. It was a coach that gave it to us years ago, Anne Rog or Alan Kahn or somebody had said, we don't agree, but we will align. So in other words, sometimes you have to come to a conclusion and somebody has to take responsibility. So in other words, I'm going, I don't care. I need to do this. I need your support. I'll take responsibility for it. Whatever it is. You can say, I think you're full of shit. I don't agree, but I will align. That's the key part is you can not agree and still align to move forward in regards to whatever the other.

[B]

Person is driving, if you see the common outcome. But I think what happens sometimes in immature relationships or early on is that there's no distinction between agreement and alignment. It's like if I align, I don't agree, then I'm compromising. And one of the things you taught me early on in our relationship is that we don't compromise. We both really commit to what it is that we believe in. And we don't compromise because compromise means that we're giving something up. But when you align, you're not compromising. You're just saying, okay, I see the bigger picture. I see that the, the resolution of this conflict is more important than it is for me to tear something down or to be bitter or whatever.

[A]

So the alliance or be right or.

[B]

Fight to be right. Right. So I think there, it does take some maturity and it takes some experience and it, and it takes the, the awareness, the personal acuity. Right.

[A]

It takes practice too.

[B]

It takes practice. Yeah.

[A]

It's one thing to sit down with your team in your business, your. Whatever you might be doing. If you're a manager, you own a business, and you're sitting with your team if you have these agreements up front. Because if you are a team that wants to be high performing, if you want to produce great results, you're going to have conflict. You know, you've got a type personalities have different views of the world, have different going on in their life. But if you sit down with your team and this is part of the culture conversation, how do you create a culture? Then ultimately you have these conversations in advance. How are we going to react when we have conflict?

[B]

And you do it when you're not in conflict.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. Do it when you're not in conflict. These become agreements that prepare people. Now the number one, I think, rule that has to be there is no personal shots. You can't be talking about a marketing or a sales initiative or a client initiative and then get into a disagreement and look across the table and go, well, you're an idiot.

[B]

And you did that.

[A]

Okay. If you weren't so fat, there wouldn't be a problem like that shit's gotta be off the table. That can't even be a thought process. That can't even be a thought process. Now, having said that, when you work with somebody who is designed not to take things personally and we. I had a good friend who worked with us and she was so direct and so like, boom, boom, boom, boom. She would offend 90% of the people that she talked to in a meeting, often because she was just direct. But her, her whole wiring was don't take shit personally. And I came to be so appreciative of the way she operated. Although sometimes it was like, oh, that hurts. It's like, patrick, what the fuck are you doing? Like, we can't do it that way. Like, it would be that heated, right? And we'd get into this debate and. But if I took it personally, oh, my gosh, you know what's really cool.

[B]

Is that she was usually right.

[A]

Well, no, she was often right. And the thing about it was, is that if I took her personally, which, even with my. Even with all of the work we've done and all the stuff I've done over the years, I had to get into a mode where I just know none of it's personal. And in her world, it was never, ever personal. She didn't even think in those terms, but she was very direct. And if she thought you were going the wrong direction, if you dropped the ball, you showed up late, you didn't do as good a job as you could have done. Whatever she called you on it. And that was all about high performance.

[B]

But what's cool about that is it's a high level of, yes, high performance, but it's a commitment to the outcome and a commitment to everybody moving to a level of excellence that maybe they haven't ever been before. So they've never been held to that standard. Right? And that's what I loved about her.

[A]

So the point of it is, is that within the context of conflict, the way to have constructive conflict, because, let's put it this way, and you know, the reality of it is sometimes conflict is very healthy because you come to a different result or a different outcome than maybe you had originally intended, and you realize that it was through conflict that you got to a better solution, a better idea, whatever it might be, and then that came from actually having constructive conflict. All I'm suggesting is that within relationships, whether they be romantic relationships, as in marriages or significant others of some sort, friends, family, the more you can preface how conflict will be handled within your ecosystem, within your culture, the less departures you're going to have in terms of staff leaving or a manager quitting, or a significant other storming out the door and saying, I want a divorce. You know, I think there's a way to do that so that you're sitting down and having those agreements in place before the conflict arises, knowing that if you're an A type personality, even if you're not, you're going to have conflict. So that's a critical component of this. Okay, where do you want to go in terms of next phase?

[B]

So I think where I. What I love is that you Know, there's that line that if you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So when you think about that, if you're coming into a conflict or and you're not looking at far enough into the conflict to reach a resolution, then everything's going to look like a nail. Like, you have to defend and you have to pound and you have to punch and you have to get your point across and all those things. So there's really no opportunity to look at the other side. So I think what it is is that if we have like a conflict toolkit, for example, kind of like your rules of engagement or the things. But it can be different for every. For every person, every couple, every business. Because to your point, I mean, in sport, for example, we need to embrace conflict in order to get better, in order to push against, whether it's judging or whatever. We need that conflict as human beings to grow. And I think it's also a way to get to know each other because. And know ourselves really. Because there's a high level of personal acuity that comes from the. The practice of understanding that if we don't, it's like with conflict, I remember used to say all the time is, you know, a diamond is just a chunk of coal under a whole bunch of pressure. Right. And a lot of that pressure can be perceived as conflict. But what if it's just a window into figuring out your values, figuring out who you are and what you stand for? And I think that's what I'd like to kind of unpack a little bit more.

[A]

Okay, so let's. Let's go back to what you said. And I want to get. I want to make sure, because I know that there's at least one of our listeners is going, okay, you guys, you got the whole tool thing wrong. And everything's a hammer. So the point of. Is if. If the only tool you have is.

[B]

A hammer, everything's a nail.

[A]

Everything's a nail.

[B]

I got. I keep. See, that's the dyslexia thing. I keep screwing up.

[A]

So, no, this is perfect. So the point of that is when. And you. You hit on it. So do you have a toolkit? So if you're the person that is going to lead and be better in conflict, the first thing you have to do is go, okay, not everybody is created or can handle conflict the same way. So a little bit of the conflict that you may have. If you're having conflict, for example, with somebody that you've never met, maybe you go into A store, some sales guy tries to do something and you get into a situation that's a whole different world, right? So that means that, are you astute enough, are you aware enough to say, how do I handle this conflict in the moment? Or do you fire off? Are you triggered easily and you respond with a boom, you know, like whatever that might be an insult or a hard comeback. How are you going to be? So part of handling conflict is knowing yourself and understanding. I can be pretty easily triggered. Don't piss me off in the wrong moment, you know, because I, I, I do, I do snap. So I, I'm not that anymore. But there was a time, but that's.

[B]

Called conflict competency, and it actually is a thing in psychology is that do you have the competency to handle those situations, whether it's somebody cutting you off in traffic, you know, that's conflict, you.

[A]

Know, well, think about it. I mean, and listen, folks, is, is, is this is a thing. So we know, I mean, we think about the coaches in the NHL or the staff at a high professional level that have had to have been sent away on anger management courses because they just lose their shit and they are out of control. And so everybody's looking at them going, they're either going to kill somebody or they're going to get killed.

[B]

Like, it's really the garbage can down. Like, I've seen coaches kick the can to the point where the, the players are like, what the hell? You know, like they don't understand.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Sometimes they use it as motivation, so, you know, we can't step over that.

[A]

So. Well, of course, that's a different conversation. The point is, is when we look at how do we handle conflict, are we prepared to deal with it? Have we trained ourselves? Are we aware of ourselves enough to go, okay, take a breath before you react. So that's, you know, that's something that really matters. Second part of, I think that we have to look at is understanding that when we have a way and a methodology of handling conflict, then we start to understand that when some, depending on the personality on the other side of it, we're going to deal with it. The automatic reaction is rarely pushed back with equal force.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

You know, in the way of the peaceful warrior. There's a phrase, and I think it's in that book and it's probably in others we're familiar with it, it's a martial arts methodology, is when somebody pushes, pull, and when somebody pulls, push. So in other words, be aware enough to understand what your number one, what are you fighting for what is the conflict about? What is this person fired up about? Do they understand? Can you reconfigure the conversation so you're entering the conversation where they're at and. Or can you invite them to enter the conversation with where you're at? So that takes some finesse and some understanding of how to bring the conflict down so that people can hear each other. If it's a yelling match, everybody's fighting to be right. Those conflicts very rarely get resolved. Everybody walks away pissed off, nothing gets done. And then you have to circle back and do it all again. And maybe somebody has to eat humble pieces, you know, who knows? But those are far more difficult. So phase one is understand who you are in the world of conflict and how you handle conflict when it shows.

[B]

Up or do you avoid it?

[A]

Well, do you avoid it? That's the, that's the other side of that possibility, right? Which is some people will just avoid it. They'll shut down. So knowing where to enter the conversation is part of our own training. So we talk about courageous conversations and having courageous conversations. So I use this as an example. This was such a great example. And it was somebody who was gossiping about us and it was a friend. And through a chain of events, yeah, we thought it was a friend. Anyways, the point of it is they were gossiping. And it was very, very. It was just not good. It was having an impact on us and we didn't even realize what was going on until we found out. And so I had a conversation with that friend and it was a face to face conversation. Now that was a lot of conflict. And I know how this person operates when it comes to conflict. So what I did is I sat down in that conversation and I prefaced it and I took the uncomfortableness, a lot of it, the edge off, the confrontation, that would create anger. So the conflict would create anger on that side of it. I was pissed off. But by the time I sat down with that conversation, I'd gotten my own kind of mindset around it, thought process. And I sat down and I said, you know, I have to have a really uncomfortable conversation and I don't want to have it, but I don't know how to deal with it. And it involves you. And so I just want you to know that it's just really uncomfortable for me as well. So right away I prefaced that conversation about the discomfort I was feeling. I didn't want to have it, but it was necessary to have it. And then I had the conversation. And because of How I prefaced it, he, you know, asked a couple questions. I filled in the blanks. He knew that he had been busted for that gossip and there was not much for him to say other than, I'm sorry and it won't happen again. And that was the end of that conversation. But if I would have gone into it and been angry and been accusatory and pissed off right out of the gate, that would not have gone well. That would not have ended up the way it ended up again. It was really uncomfortable. But when you preface it saying, I have to have a really uncomfortable conversation with you and I don't want to have it, but I have to because it's important for both of us, that changes how the energy is and the conversation gets set up. So that's a tool. I'm just giving you one tool to use when you have those scenarios come.

[B]

Up that is good. And I guess going into that, if you go backwards a little bit, one step further, is that the skill that you acquired over the years is emotional regulation. And that is a tool that I really admire in you. And I've been working on myself and I teach it a lot. I mean, of course, you know, teacher, teach thyself, so to speak, is that emotional regulation is really, really important because we can do the regulation of our emotions. Pre which you did the conversation with that person so that you were prepared and you were able to say, I'm going to have an uncomfortable conversation. So you preempted that, giving him the opportunity to go, oh, this is going to be awkward. But you had done the work and that's called emotional regulation. And what you and I have learned to do over the years, and I don't know if you realize this is called co regulation. So because we are both trying to be as mature as we can in certain situations and not fire, because I don't want a whole lot of adrenaline and cortisol in my body. But I also know that I don't want to step aside or away from things that matter to me because the value system that we are committed to and operating within in means that we have to take a stand for what it is that we believe in. You know, there's not a hill, a lot of hills that you and I are going to die on that are outside of this relationship. So there is something that we agree to in our arguments or our conflict is that we want to make sure that we come out of it healthy, we come out of it aligned, and we don't come out of these Conflicts damaged. Because people can be really mean in conflict and in not understanding that if they don't regulate their emotions going into the conflict, their personal emotions, the emotional maturity that we need as grownups in order to move through things. And I think that's where we've been stunted over the last little while. And to your point, earlier in this conversation hun was about how we've been canceled and doxed and, and now people are terrified to actually express how they feel because conflict is going to be perceived as an attack.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So this skill in psychology and learning emotional regulation and then in our, what we've done and we didn't even know it was we co regulate is that you'll, you're able to say things like okay, we need to slow down, let's look at this. I need you to understand first so that I can be understood. So we've created a language and a system of. I mean I'm not always happy about it because it's sometimes I get really hurt or I feel guilty that I've hurt you or whatever. So then that's the emotion that needs to be regulated. Does that mean like, does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, it does. And I think the, the, the, the point of it is that conflict is a part of life. It's just going to happen and it's certainly going to happen if you're want to be a high performer or you are a high performer, you're a top performer, you want to accomplish, you're that a type personality that we often refer to. You know, it's by design just know that you're going to have conflict. If you plan for it in advance then you can start to through practice get better at it. But I think the biggest thing is you know, for those moments in time where conflict you might run into conflict. Just in day to day life this is about you so being conscious in advance of how you're going to handle conflict. And by the way, a great practice is in, even in traffic, you know, somebody cuts you off, you want to flip them the bird. Whatever the story is, you want to yell at them. But observe yourself. How is that? That's a moment of conflict. Right. And so how do you take that on? It's a way of bringing your awareness to it and deciding in advance how you might want to handle it. And I guess there's all ranges of conflict and things that come up but it is again training with your teams, with business. This I think is one of the most important conversations to have with the team because if you want to get the most out of your team, if you want to get the most out of an idea, you got to be able to sit down with your management team or your key people and be okay to get down and get dirty and argue and debate and fight shit out and do it in a way that comes out the other side of it and the issue is resolved. Knowing that you have rules around conflict. The biggest one being that you don't take things personally, you don't interrupt, you don't be a right fighter, you don't fight for the sake of fighting and, or the, you know, you need to be right is the biggest one in those kinds of scenarios. But if you're coming from a place with your team in agreement that you're going to have those debates and that's just how you guys or how within the team you're going to operate, that's an important part of having conflict and having creative and I guess productive conflict. It's important. You have to have it.

[B]

We do. And I think not just in business, but in personal relationships. You know, when you think about people that avoid conflict, you know, it makes me sad because think about families who maybe just brush things under the rug or never really brought conversations that mattered and it was very superficial. And so when they get into like a grown up relationship and maybe they're in a conversation or a relationship with somebody that's familiar with conflict or isn't offended by it or doesn't. I'm not afraid of conflict. That's. I think that's what really freaked people out over time in business is that I'm not afraid of conflict. I'm great with somebody else's opinion. Maybe some, except for your sometimes, but whatever. Anyway, my point is, is that you think about backgrounds and how conflict is framed in different family situations. And then they go to a business meeting and somebody raises their voice and it shuts somebody else down. So we have to also be mindful is that people have been dealing with conflict or not dealing with conflict in their whole lives. So you know, for you and I, if in your case with, with Wani, for example, like she's brilliant. She's elevated all of us in terms of getting, you know, inspired and excited by having different opinions. And some people can't even have a different opinion without shutting down and thinking that's conflict. And that to me, you know, as you evolve and grow is like, that's really, really sad. And I think a little bit immature is that how can we exist in a society when we can't have our own opinions when we have to agree to one thing. I mean, that is. To me, that's so 1984. So how do we train ourselves and other people to be able to understand that if we are expressing a different opinion, it's not a personal attack?

[A]

There's one other aspect of this, as we start to kind of wind this conversation down, is that, you know, I know for myself, you know, when I'm working with the team and nobody pushes back, it kind of annoys me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I. Because I don't want to be the smartest guy in the room. I don't want to be the smartest guy in the room. I would have somebody. I would rather have somebody question me so that I have to defend my argument, defend my decision, as opposed to them just saying, okay, cool. You know, if I can. If I can defend it, if I can have a strong argument for it, because somebody's pushing back, somebody doesn't agree, and we debate that and we come out to the same conclusion. Great. At least I know it's been tested. I prefer that personally, because I don't necessarily think I'm right in all the decisions that I make around whatever we're doing in a business model, for example. But is it. You know, you have to do that. But I prefer always if somebody gives me their feedback and go, yeah, I think you're full of, okay, great, let's talk about that. So that's just how I'm wired.

[B]

You also have to create the environment. I mean, you know, as a CEO or general manager or whatever, if. If you've set yourself up as the boss and the leader and nobody's allowed to push back or have their own opinion because you're saying, no, I'm right. You know, you've done the work. You know, I get that. But I. I do see, you know, in. In the last little while, even I think I'm super open and I'm. I'm listening to other opinions, but I've also had people say to me, you know, I don't want to. I don't want. I don't want to express myself because I don't want to hurt your feelings. I'm like, what does that even mean?

[A]

What does that even mean?

[B]

Like, I don't. I don't have any. I have one feeling.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

And that's like, let's do this together. Move forward and honor each other where we're at so that we can have conversations and create the space. Because sometimes when you Go into those conversations and there's a little bit of conflict or spark or whatever. What's magic is on the other side of that. That's where growth is, that's where enrollment lives, that's where abundance lives is under that, that, that pressure that we push down. I don't want to bring it up because what if I hurt someone's feelings or what if I say something wrong? Well, you know what, what if you don't?

[A]

I'm going to, you know, within the podcast the Everyday Millionaire. I talk to so many people on those calls and we have lots of off camera conversations and. But I've learned a lot. But what I'm, what I'm going to say in this is that in some of the most successful businesses and guys and girls that I've talked to, conflict's just a normal part of their day and they expect it. They don't have a problem with it. They don't even necessarily look at it as a negative or even as conflict in the context that most people hold conflict about. And so ultimately it is a healthy thing to do. Have rules of engagement, pre position yourself so that you know how you're going to handle it. Seek first to understand, then to be understood. Enter the conversation where the other person is at, then bring them into your, where you're at in your conversation. It's just another approach to it. And that boils back down to the Stephen Covey quote that I so much like or I like so much, which is seek first to understand and then to be understood. That one is a golden rule, I think, in conflict resolution. And that's all I got. You got any more on that?

[B]

Well, the last thing for me is respect is to know that I have my own self respect that I need to be able to express where I'm at if I have to journal or close clear or call a girlfriend or whatever to get to what's true. But I also need to know that if I'm coming from respect and I know I respect you, or I respect the person that I know that I'm gonna have the courageous conversation with. And that if we're committed to an outcome that takes again, emotional regulation, it takes maturity, it takes a high level of awareness and personal acuity to understand that we all have to work together to a common goal. And if we're not, then that's a different conversation. So conflict in an environment where you're working together to a common goal and we're not working to backstab each other or to work against each other, then that's a whole different conversation. But I think having the rules of engagement, having the understanding first to seek first to understand, then to be understood, is that you're putting the other person first. And to me, that is the definition of respect.

[A]

Beautiful. So conflict, courageous conversations, seek first to understand. Stephanie, thank you.

[B]

Hey, hon. That was fun.

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening. If you found value in the podcast, please take the time to rate and review and share with others. Share with your friends, as it is my goal to always improve and to provide the highest value for you, the listener. If you have any comments, suggestions, or questions you'd like answered, please email [e-mail] that's ceor.com I look forward to hearing from you. And until next time, Patrick O.