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The Everyday Millionaire and Mindset Matters Podcast
TEDM – Menopause Explained for Men and Women: Hormones, HRT and Midlife Health with Debra Atkinson (Episode 235)
01:34:37
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome to the Everyday Millionaire podcast. My name is Patrick Francie and I am your host. And I want to begin by saying thank you for listening. On this show, I am having conversations with seemingly ordinary individuals who have achieved some amazing and extraordinary results in both their life and business. My intention is to inspire and help you learn and grow by having my guests share their journey of how they face and overcome their challenges, but also how they celebrate their their many wins. And now let's get on with this show and have a conversation with today's guest. My guest today, Deborah Atkinson, is The founder of Flipping50, the first and only fitness membership created exclusively for women in and around menopause. But men you need to listen to. Here's what we now know. If you love a woman over 40 and you don't understand menopause, you are flying blind. And today we're going to fix that. As Deborah shares why this is definitely not the beginning of the end, but the start of the strongest decade for you and your partner, she shares that for 40 years, most exercise research ignored women's hormones and Deborah is on a mission to fix that and change how women age. Now we cover how only 20% of adults lift weights twice a week. Yet it's one of the biggest reasons women hit a wall in midlife and it's 100% fix. So if you take nothing else away from this conversation today is that it's never too late. From reversing bone loss in your 60s to clearing brain fog in your 70s, Deborah shows why age is not your ceiling. She's been in the fitness and exercise science world for more than 40 years. She's an exercise physiologist, former university lecturer, strength and conditioning coach, TEDx speaker, and now trains not only women, but also trainers and even physicians on how to prescribe exercise for midlife and menopausal women. Twelve years ago, when almost nobody was talking about menopause, Deborah saw the gap. Women were being told, that's just aging. What do you expect? Well, research was still being done, mostly on male bodies. She set out to change that. Today we get into what's really happening with women's hormones, bone density, muscle, brain fog, mood, libido and weight as they move through peri and post menopause. And what actually works smart, strength training, supplements and lifestyle shifts that are evidence based, not just fads. And if you're a man listening, if you love a woman over 40, you have a partner, sister, daughter, client, you need to understand this stuff as well. So this conversation is about reframing midlife from it's the beginning of the end to what do I want to do now? And why? As Deborah says, it's never too late to change the way we age. Listen in. Enjoy. Deborah Atkinson, welcome to the Everyday Millionaire podcast. Thank you for joining me.
- [03:28]
B
Thank you so much for having me excited to talk.
- [03:31]
A
So let's clear something up right out of the gate. Your bio is impressive. I love it. But it's pretty women centric. Does that mean that if there's men listening to the podcast, that they're not going to get any value out of this conversation?
- [03:46]
B
Well, I think they'll get a lot of value out of the conversation if they love women. Yeah.
- [03:51]
A
Yeah, I think so, too. But I wanted to set it up like, let's manage expectations. Why am I listening to this? This is all about women. Well, I think that there's some lessons to be learned from men in all of these conversations, Deborah, and so I'm counting on you to keep us heading in the right direction. But I do like to open with a fundamental, which is, you know, bios are always impressive and often not up to date. So when somebody says to you today, Deborah, what do you do? How are you answering that question?
- [04:22]
B
I'm the founder of the first and only exclusively Made for Menopause fitness membership in the world. So 12 years ago, nobody was talking about menopause and menopause fitness. Certainly today everybody's talking about it, and I couldn't be more excited about that. But I think we will be a generation that changes the way we all age. And in large part, it's because we can change the way women age if we change the way they journey through menopause.
- [04:56]
A
What's shifted? You know, I mean, you're saying that, you know, it's a much bigger conversation or a much more common conversation. Is that because we're all getting older in the edgy and aging demographic? Is it technology? Is it we know more? What. What's kind of driving this, do you think?
- [05:13]
B
I think yes. And yes, it is. Because we're aging. It is. Specifically, thank you to baby boomers. And I'm not sure where you fall, but I call myself a barely boomer. I am one of those 1964 babies. And, you know, it dawned on me. I think it wasn't until I was close to 40 when I realized, oh, my gosh, I am a boomer. I never thought of myself as that generation that was my older siblings, but they went through menopause and decided they weren't going to have it. They didn't like the answers they were getting and they pushed back. And so like so many other things that they changed, they changed that. They changed the fact that we started digging into, there's very little research featuring women. The ratio is wrong and it's wrong because researchers didn't love to work with women because we had all of these changing hormones every week during the typical month. The guys were just easy. And that's actually the reason we need more research, is because we can't help women, can't help them get better results, we can't help them avoid injury. And then when it comes to menopause, when hormones shift, we have an array of bone changes, muscle changes, connective tissue changes that will change the way we age. And it will either go better or worse depending on what we do. But we don't know the choices because we hadn't been informed about them. So thanks to boomers, we started saying, well, I don't like that answer. Welcome to menopause. What do you expect? That's what they were getting. And they're like, I don't want that. So I think it is because of them. I think that now research is getting its, its due place where subjects are. We're going to look at more women, we're going to look at women in menopause. We're going to look at does hormone therapy make a difference in a woman's heart health, muscle health, bone health and the way she ages. We're getting a better opportunity. So here's an example. Ten years ago there were 38% of all research subjects were females in exercise science and sports medicine. Today it's 44. We're coming up and I think that's going to boom even more. And that's really necessary because we may be older than menopause, but if you're listening, you probably influence a daughter, a daughter in law or, or eventually granddaughters. And it's, we're going to pass this information on. They're going to age better, they're going to have a better outcome in every stage of their life because of what we're doing.
- [08:09]
A
I want to go back and you know, as you're speaking, I'm hearing all this and I realize that to the degree I have some knowledge of it, you know, my wife went through some version of menopause. I don't know, I'm thinking a dozen years ago or 10 years ago for sure, maybe, I think maybe more. Anyways, my point is, is that let's not make an assumption Here, like when I'm thinking about my listeners and I'm going, can we define menopause? Like, can you, Is there a definition of menopause? Because I think it means something different to different people. And if you're a 40 year old female or a 40 year old male, I don't know, I think it might be important to understand what it is.
- [08:49]
B
Great point. Yes. So I mean, the literal menopause is you've hit this mark, it's a mark in time and then it's over and you're post menopause till death do you part, actually. But it's a moment in time when you're 12 months from having had a regular period. That cycle, kind of noting that you're still in reproductive years is now over. So menopause, menopause itself though can be, you know, a, an 11 year, a 15 year, a 20 year process, depending on who you ask. And every woman's journey, as unique as her thumbprint is. So there are some collective things and signs and symptoms that we can guess and suggest or look for, but every woman has a different experience. So somewhere in a woman's late 30s, early 40s, so we almost are certain, or fairly sure, sure that between 40 and 50, a woman is in what we call perimenopause, meaning those changes, the trends are down. Like estrogen's trending down. Testosterone and growth hormone and your progesterone, they're trending down. Sex hormones and your cortisol is trending up. And so that doesn't bode well really for blood sugar or for reactions to stress. But that is really what's happening. And they can be a roller coaster. So it'll be up, it'll be down. But again, trending down at menopause, you might say that things more, more or less flatline. We still have a respectable amount of testosterone depending on a woman's lifestyle. Lifting weights, she's doing high intensity exercise, she's probably going to have more testosterone than a woman who doesn't. But for the most part, estrogen is kind of null and there's not a lot of progesterone there unless they're getting support. And it's interesting, we're shifting here too with vocabulary. Hormone replacement therapy has always been the term and I was schooled a couple weeks ago at a conference and somebody said we should call it hormone therapy. It's a supplement. We're not actually replacing what we had. We're trying to give and mimic as close to what nature had to support ourselves. But we're not actually replacing. So. Such a great point. But that is kind of the description of it. But it can start in late 30s, early 40s, definitely. Perimenopause can last up to 11 years. A woman can hit menopause and then in post menopause, still experience symptoms. Some women don't experience hot flashes or night sweats ever, but some don't experience them until they're postmenopause. And so they. The ride can be bumpy, but it's definitely different for every woman.
- [11:53]
A
You know, it's interesting that when you hear the term menopause, I mean, there's lots of, you know, connotations around it. Most of them are negative because of the bumpy ride, if you will, of what's going on. How women occur. I go back in my own experience, you know, having sisters and my wife, of course, over 30 years, and I remember her going through perimenopause. But she was really proactive. And when she realized that. And we're very holistic in terms of how we look at our own health. So she actually went to a. I know what you call a practitioner who had a nursing background. So they went on a whole different journey of working, whatever they did. I don't. I. I'm talking right out of school because I'm going way back at a memory that I don't have all the details of. But the point is, she went through it quite effortlessly. And I'm curious. There is the actual physicalness of it, you know, with the hormone change and all the changes of the body goes through. Is there a mental aspect of it? The reason I ask this is that when I look at, you know, sisters, my wife, just friends in general that have gone through it, how you go through it is also. There is a mental. There seems to be a mental aspect to it. In other words, you're aware that you're going through it. You're aware that you've got these emotional kind of highs and lows and the physicalness that you have to go through. But there's a part of it, too. I think that that makes a big difference in how you kind of go into those years. Am I talking out of school here, Deborah?
- [13:29]
B
I don't think you're talking out of school. And I think if we liken it to the research that exists about the way you think about aging, if we have a positive attitude about aging and what's next and we're looking forward to what's around the corner or using the wisdom, just feeling I Don't know. There was something for me about turning the corner at 60. It's like I really don't care what anybody thinks anymore. It's like I have fewer years on the planet. I am not going to worry about what you think. I'm going to go do the thing. And I think that it is like you get seven years more to your life. You have a positive attitude about aging. And I think, you know, menopause may be a little like that as well. I think that for some women, but I would have to say it's probably tied to physically the way they feel as much as anything. But I think for some, it's like the end. It's the end of reproduction. It's the end of maybe how they thought of themselves and their role in the world. So it might. It might be dependent, we're speculating here on maybe what else she has going on, you know, besides, you know, home and family and the vast importance of that, I think, to any woman, no matter what. But I think if there's. If there's other things and other purpose, there may be a difference. But I do think that for a lot of women, there is definitely the feeling of loss of control when, you know, a woman can. And I've watched it happen, as you might guess, women who are. I've done everything right. I've exercised my whole life, and suddenly this is not working anymore. And I don't know how to pivot. I'm trying to pivot, don't know how to pivot. There's no manual for this. You know, there's. You're driving blindly a bit. And I think the loss of control when maybe identity has been very tied potentially to being a very fit or active woman and looking a certain way. And, you know, vanity comes into play. But there's nothing wrong with that because sometimes vanity gets us motivated to do the things that bias the physical health anyway. And I don't care how you get there, right. It's a two for one. So I think there's a lot of mourning, you know, for energy. For some women, fatigue is something many have never had to deal with before. But suddenly they can't figure out their way out of it.
- [16:13]
A
So if I'm hearing you, then you. You spoke to, you know, of women who look after themselves, who are. They're physically active and they're eating right, and they're doing all the things that they do to look after themselves. And then you're saying, so what is it that they're losing control of? I'm not quite following. I want to pull on that thread just a little bit.
- [16:33]
B
Yeah, so for a lot of women, just if we go down the whole list and we can't because we, we don't have that much time. But there, there were, you know, for a while, we would talk about 10 or 12 years ago. There's like 34 signs that have been identified as signs and symptoms of menopause. And some of them were, you would never suspect, like, like electrical feelings in the mouth and like, are you kidding? I've never, never heard of that. Never experienced that. But then there are the obvious ones, like hot flashes, night sweats, overall weight gain, belly fat gain. So even for women who didn't necessarily gain weight, often it relocated. They now have a different body shape than they did and can't figure out how do I get rid of that. A loss of muscle strength, then tone, then definition. So it's body composition changing and insomnia, low libido, and sometimes difficulty or pain. You know, getting intimate becomes something that they'd never dealt with before. So so much of that, I think loss of control and intimacy is so very important to a relationship, and that becomes challenging. And, you know, whether a woman is single or she's married and in a firm relationship of any kind, that becomes, you know, what does my future look like? What does this mean for me or for us? So I think that is, you know, an experience that a lot of women have. And then brain fog is also a big one. Depression and anxiety are huge for women. We've known that for years that women have probably two thirds greater risk of depression and anxiety as they age. In part it's because we outlive you all. We don't mean to, but we do. Right? And so we last longer without maybe loves of our lives around and have to navigate by ourselves for more years. But so much of that is also tied to brain, muscle and bone changes that occur as a result of menopause. And we kind of come to a cliff and fall off of it in terms of our hormonal changes. You guys come in for a soft landing, you know, so you decline as well. But later, almost a decade, and it's.
- [19:06]
A
Not as harsh speak from a man's perspective. So at this point, you know, it.
- [19:11]
B
Would be hard for you to do otherwise, wouldn't it? Yeah.
- [19:15]
A
Okay, so that is a good point. Okay, we'll state the obvious there. So the, the. I guess the question I have is this. So, you know, as an age, you know, I'm well Into the boomer. I'm, I'm born in 58, but you know, fitness and training and eating right and holistic health has been really part of my life for the past at least 40 years. 35 for sure.
- [19:38]
B
Like I knew I liked you.
- [19:40]
A
Yeah, that's just the way it is. But I'm, I'm curious is here's what happens. So for me, because I still maintain muscle mass and I train on a regular basis, I still have a trainer come in and work with me at least a couple days a week. Aside from what I do on my own, just from an accountability. But I'm, I'm off. I'm often. I don't know if I'm surprised, but I frequently get the question from both men, primarily men, but women as well. Am I on some kind of testosterone supplement or you know, am I doing HRT or whatever terminology that they're using? It seems to be a kind of a given question for men for some reason to maintain muscle mass and all the rest of it, I'm not. Doesn't matter. But the point is, is it's a common question given the advances in medical technology and understanding are women. We talked about it just briefly. So when you look at hormone replacement therapy of some sort or hormone therapy, as we pointed out earlier, is that now more in mainstream of understanding where women aren't as, let's say, naive as to what is possible? Because I think there's a part of it where for men it seems to be more in your face. For women it seems to be this thing where it's not as well known. But I mean, I'm not in those circles, so I don't know. I'm asking the question from a place of do women just know that when they go through this, there's, there's other options medically or holistically today that there wasn't or that you didn't know about 10 years ago. Is that a good question? I think I'm trying to get to.
- [21:15]
B
It's a great question and there's so much here that we can unpack. So I'm glad you asked it. I think from this day to tomorrow, to tomorrow is going to get better and better that people will be informed about their choices and whether or not they, they choose one way or the other, totally up to them. But I think until now people weren't aware that there were choices and that they were safe. So the, the infamous nurses study is still out there. And you know, it's like a rumor in junior high once the rumor's out there. People still have that rumor. Even once it's been disproven and quieted, it lives on. It's really hard for us to shake things out sometimes. And anything that I think is built around fear, even more so. And I think the worst case scenario here is for women who are breast cancer survivors or at risk for breast cancer. They still are very unclear about is it safe for me or is it absolutely taboo for me? And it really depends on the physician that you're working with, how well educated they are and how up to date. Because that's the difference. Because if a doctor learns something at the very impressionable young adult age, you know, and that's what they've lived and abided by, just like us, you know, we hang on to those ideals. Even if we sometimes have every evidence that they're not working, we will hang on to habits. So I think it's getting better. I think more women now are coming to me and saying, and again, obviously, just to clarify, I'm not a physician or registered dietitian. I don't Play 1 on TV or even the Internet. But I working in fitness as a medical exercise specialist and strength and conditioning coach and educating in kinesiology at a university, I have had so many women come to me as we really fit this niche with menopause fitness and the changes that make sense so that you can do it and get better results without getting exhausted or injured. Really important distinctions. Women are like, can I still. Is it too late for me to go on HRT? Because 10 years ago or 14 years ago, when I went through it, it was never presented as an option. Nobody ever said that to me. And women are even asking that question now. And so I host a podcast. I did a roundup with my physicians, rather than me say, well, here's what I know they'll say. I went to seven experts and asked each of them individually, would you respond to this question? And then I just played all of the answers for them. And in every single case, it was like, no, it's not too late. But it's like, you know, we would start you very slowly, you know, like you were. We're bringing you back online, we're going to reboot the system. But because it's been a longer time since you've had any hormones, we're going to start you on a far smaller dose than we would someone who, say, just ended, you know, their cycles today, you know, and they had their own hormones at higher levels. It's just different. And yes, you still can. And so there is a difference between working with what we'd call western, trained in a functional doctor who's also maybe gone on or instead went a functional direction and really wants to get to the root cause of supporting someone's health as opposed to waiting until something is wrong and being active with a pill or a, or a chill some other way.
- [25:29]
A
Is there something that proactively women can do? So menopause is a fact of life for, I'm going to say all women. The effects of it are different for women. So I go back to the, you know, the benchmark that I have, which is just Stephanie going through it. She was very proactive with it in terms of as soon as she thought she was in this whole perimenopause, she established that. And then she again reached out naturopathically and holistically and did vitamins and whatever potions, emotions that she had going and, and she went through it. I gotta say, you know, I, I came out the other side unscathed. She seemed to be handling it quite well and it wasn't really a big topic of conversation for us. It was her noting things to me going, I'm experiencing this. And I noticed that. But it wasn't, it was not a big deal yet. I know that there, there is maybe it is a little bit of a wives tale around, you know, say menopause to men and they all like, oh my gosh, you know, like they all have a story around it or many do and it's not good generally in that regard. So my question around that is that is there a lifestyle prior to. So in other words, we know that, you know, eating right and fitness and some form of exercises is good for us in general. But is there a, you know, can we, can women be proactive in how they go through that phase of menopause or perimenopause so that they go through it as, as best they can or, you know, what I'm saying is, is there a pre preparation they can do?
- [27:11]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I mean really, we call. My business is called flipping 50. And you know, I both love that and hate it because some take it so literally. It's like, I'm not 50 yet, so I'm not gonna go pay attention. But the whole idea is we can flip the second half and we can help a woman get through her menopause will be so much better if we start talking to 20 and 30 year olds, you know, and, and I, I put myself in check every time I think about this or say this and, and wonder would 30 year old me have listened to this? Would 30 year old me listen to me right now? You know, and yet, and I'm experiencing this and I would guess maybe a lot of our listeners might too. I am a proud owner of a daughter in law right now who just had a baby and I'm thinking, darn it, we missed it. I wish I would have given her that bone density test because I'm apparently the fun mother in law. Because a woman who's 30, we're actually checking what was her personal peak bone density as opposed to waiting until we're 60 or 65 and insurance will cover it and it's too late. I mean, we've lost it along the way and we're only comparing it to quote unquote, a young, healthy, you know, female in my case, male in your case. And so we may never have reached the peak and we don't know it. So we start really preparing women, young girls, but even boys for later in life and longevity. When they're kids, we need to get them off those screens, we need to give them jump ropes, we need to get them jumping, moving and using their muscle and bone because they're banking that until they're about 30 when they really can put it in and pack it in and it's, we can build bone later, it just gets harder. We have to work at it harder, we have to do more, do more consistently. And we're not going to put ourselves back to better than factory standards. We're going to maybe be able to improve bone losses, replace or reverse bone loss if we discover we've lost some, but we're not going to build it beyond where we were at 30, probably because that was just natural and easy for us. So if we can get a young woman at 30 to start lifting weights regularly, to start looking at her diet. And it's not necessarily supplementing with calcium, it's just making sure she's getting adequate protein, good variety of micronutrients, colorful foods, you know, probably taking vitamin D and magnesium to help absorb the calcium she's already eating. Dietarily she's going to get to menopause. And really the secret one of them is muscle. If a woman has more muscle when she enters menopause, she's going to have better blood sugar control. Is one of the pivotal things that changes is insulin sensitivity. And we can say if you have more muscle, you have greater insulin sensitivity. If you lift weights, not only during that hour you're doing it, are you Making yourself more insulin sensitive, but also for the hours and the days in between your workouts, you're more sensitive to insulin. And that lack of it or the resistance shows up for most women as that's the excess pounds, that's the belly fat, that's where it goes. And so if we all knew that when we were younger and yet busy and in careers that it was really crucial that we make time for it. Even though we looked good naturally and maybe didn't feel like we had to do something. We're going to seal the deal for later.
- [31:20]
A
So many. I got so much. I want to pack in what you just talked about, but let's kind of see if I can work through. I have a question around bone density. So when you talk about a 30 year old, you're daughter or you know, daughter in law, I don't remember what she said. But the question is, is that would getting a, a bone density test or you know, let's say we do an overall, you know, health checkup and bone density is part of that. Is that something we want to use for a benchmark later in life? Is that what I'm. Is that what you're thinking? Yeah.
- [31:53]
B
Yeah. Because then, so here I am, I'm looking at my bone scan, but I'm comparing it to just this arbitrary healthy 22 year old. But if I were comparing it to where was my peak? Or here we are at 30 and we're saying where are you right now? And say she doesn't do well, she's got time to right now. We could work really hard for six months and probably do her a whole lot of good.
- [32:20]
A
You know, I've known in my life, I've always trained, but I've gone through periods of time where, you know, I'm lazy or I just get out of the mode or whatever that is, you know, so I, But I really count on. And I've really come to realize that muscle memory is a game changer. I mean, you know, if you've worked out in your life and you quit even for a couple years, I mean you're. The speed of which you come back is crazy compared to if you've done nothing. That's my. Whether I'm telling myself a story, I believe that to be true and I think it's supported by data. The question is, is bone density the same way?
- [32:58]
B
Not that I've ever heard or that any of the studies that I've poured into. And as we're doing this just I feel like I'm compelled to Say this, but this happens to be World Osteoporosis Day.
- [33:12]
A
Wow. World Osteoporosis Day.
- [33:13]
B
Happy Osteoporosis Day.
- [33:15]
A
So who knew there would be a day? Who knew there would be an osteoporosis?
- [33:18]
B
That's how significant a problem this is, really. And, and so there are a lot of studies that I've reviewed and looked at, and nothing to suggest that, but maybe, maybe that is what's happening and why we can reverse it. And, you know, osteoporosis really came on the radar in about 1994, 95, we started talking about it. And in fitness, in the fitness industry, those of us who were had some longevity in it, and we called those people special populations. Guess what? Everybody's special. Special today. Everybody. So we, we thought, here's the deal. I remember in 1995, I was starting to educate people, and I had to draw it on the board, like, what is osteoporosis? What is osteopenia? What does that mean to have healthy bone? But we had a whole different way to unpack it. We said, here's how you prevent it if you're healthy, and here's what happens if you get diagnosed. And it was dramatically different. It's like, we're going to bubble wrap you. Don't do any jumping, don't step off of curbs. I mean, wear padding. I mean, that's really. We were very cautious. And then some point in the early 2010, 13, 12, I think somebody was like, you know, nobody's ever fractured a bone lifting weights, you know, and yet people tend to fall because they're frail and break bones. And somebody started testing it in a lab. And I'm sure that was really a hard research study to round up subjects for at first, because it was like, you know, you're supposed to do no harm. We can't cause harm. And I'm sure that there was a lot of pushback. But when we started doing it, we realized high impact and heavy lifting for people with osteoporosis post menopause is safe. Not only that, the adherence rate is great and they seem to really like it. So it proved that heavy lifting and high impact do work. It didn't disprove that lighter weights and moderate weights don't work. They do too. But there will probably be. There's a continuum. We need to start light. Everybody does. We progress up to about a year. You can do moderate and get results. But at about 48 weeks, literally, it is that you may plateau and need to go Heavier. But at that point, a fraction of the population is going to say, I don't think I can because I have arthritis, or I don't think I can because I feel like I'm going to get hurt. And then we look at other things. What else in your life can we do? Your diet, your gut health, your sleep, your stress. Those things also affect your bone health so much.
- [36:25]
A
Okay, so I'm going to be, I want to be a little bit mindful of where I take this conversation because there's a lot of things I want to talk about with you, given your experience. Now I want to go back to something you talked about earlier, which was supplements in general. Now I'm a health and fitness and wellness kind of. I do a lot of research just on, for myself, but also just because of the influence that I have in, in some of the thought processes of people in general, given the work that I do. And there's so much information out there, good quality information, by the way. You got to go through it all and you got to kind of find out who's credible, who's not credible. But you, you mentioned, and I don't want to step over it, I think it's important to people to understand vitamin D. 100% of people should be supplementing vitamin D. This is my opinion, by the way. I researched it extensively. Vitamin D. And even the amount of vitamin D, you know, it's like 10,000 IU minimum, what everybody should be taking, they don't understand the vitamin D is in fact a hormone. Most people do not know that.
- [37:30]
B
That.
- [37:31]
A
And they don't understand just how depleted we are of that. You talked about magnesium again. Magnesium. It's a way bigger conversation because there's different types of magnesium. I, I don't recall if you mentioned something else in terms of supplements, but here's the thing about it, and Deborah, and I'd like your thoughts on it as well. Like, I'm. We eat very, very well. Like, we grow our own food. We don't, you know, we don't eat fast food at all. Zero of that. And we just in general eat very healthy. But nutritionally, I don't know that you can eat enough to get what you actually need out of food alone, given how, you know, short of our own vegetable gardens and our own beef. I mean, I just don't know how much, like there just doesn't seem to be enough in that. So then there's some additional kind of supplements like vitamin C, I think is, is useful. But I'm, I've also been in the past couple of years been really paying attention because you mentioned it around brain fog was the power of creatine. Now I don't know that you've done research on it, but I think creatine turns out now and I don't know if it's a thing because you just don't know. Based on what I've seen, creatine should be just a no brainer for anybody. You know, what's, what's your kind of thoughts on supplements in general, but creatine as well, specifically, if you have any background in that.
- [38:58]
B
Deborah yeah. Such a great topic and I'm so glad you said this because I would say that for a lot of women. I don't know if this is the same for men, so maybe you can speak into that. But a lot of women struggle to supplement, to use supplements. I think they feel like, no, I want to do it naturally. As if for some reason supplementing isn't natural. But, but to your point of I don't know that you can eat enough. I think there was a husband and wife team Carlton nutrition is their business. But she was a young woman who was didn't have great eating habits and she actually had osteoporosis. Went to him, she reversed it. Love story. But anyway, they began to write books. One of them, they conducted a study and they looked at all of the top diets, like Mediterranean, the dash diet made by a cardiovascular surgeon. I believe they looked at vegan or vegetarian, not necessarily that those are cream of the pie, but they looked at really great diets and they looked that on average, in order just to make the rda, which many of us would argue that's way too low, you had to eat between for depending on which diet was 21 and 27,000 calories a day. That's not a recommendation if you're just tuning in, okay, so please don't do that. So there is no way, I think with the quality of our soil today, with the amount of toxins that we're exposed to in our air and even on the foods that we're eating that we can possibly absorb all the nutrients for which women in menopause, by the way, this also should be said when hormones change. Your hormones are directly related to your gut. Many of them are produced there. So many women start experiencing gas, bloating, constipation or diarrhea or what they've tolerated for years. Actually, I find for women gets worse and they can't explain it. But it's embarrassing and they also don't talk to enough people about it because no amount of the exercise prescription I give somebody will work if they're not getting nutrients that help them repair and fuel for the energy to use. So it's, it's a vicious cycle, but we need all those things. So I'm 100%, I think vitamin D3 with K, if we can clarify that, is is really where I'd go.
- [41:38]
A
Just. I just want to interrupt just one second in that. Deborah, as well. Vitamin D3 with K, there's some, a couple of great products out there that the D3 and the K come together. They're not two separate supplements and they're very, very effective. I just want to put that in there. So if somebody's actually making notes and going, oh, vitamin K, which supports the absorption of vitamin D3, they do come together. So it is available. And so I just wanted to put that on the table. Anyway, sorry.
- [42:04]
B
Great point with that, though. I know you mentioned numbers. I. This is one of those that I don't like to shoot blanks at that. I think it's worth doing a micronutrient test regularly, so whether that's every six months. But, you know, at least you're doing it once to find out what are my levels now? And making sure that you're not comparing yourself to norms because your parents did not look in the bassinet and say, oh my gosh, I hope you're average. They, you know, we want to be optimal. And when you look at norms, the way they work is say, I live in South Phoenix. When I go to my lab right down the street, the norms are rounded up from local people and I'm being compared to them. So I might be far better, but still be below where I need to be. That's not how we want to look at. You want to know what are optimal levels and where am I? And then you may need to do 10,000 or you may need to do 20,000 for a while. But with vitamin D, you want to be in a sweet spot. You don't want to be too high or too low. So it pays to where am I now? What do I want to do temporarily and then three months later, maybe test again. But absolutely. And with magnesium, I think that's true, too. And I think there are a couple other things like omega 3 and 6, because inflammation and it's been tied to muscle and it's odd it's not directly tied to muscle, though. Vitamin D is, by the way, and so is magnesium. But I think it's related to. If we decrease inflammation, it's easier to gain muscle. It's easier to do the things that you need to gain muscle. And taking Omega 3 also supplements or supports bone health and joint health. It's proven that people with severe like knee osteoarthritis, knee and joint pain on high levels of Omeg Omega 3. No side effects, but all benefits. And your muscle, your bone and your brain all benefit from it. So looking at three and the three to six ratio, meaning your omega six is turn on the faucet for inflammation and omega three turns it off. Most of our ratios were really high in six too much so and not as high. So we're like 1 to 20 and that ratio should be like, like 3 to 4 or 1 to 3 or 4. So we have to get that back into order. So I think those things are really important and I think that is just smart nutrition. It's not cheating. And I think we have to get over this, you know, and micronutrient testing is probably the easiest way to, if I see it on paper, I know I need it. And if you don't do that micronutrient testing, which a doctor won't necessarily just automatically order, you may have to say, gosh, I feel really tired. Do you think maybe I should test it? Might need to be their idea. There's that.
- [45:12]
A
Yeah, I think this is such a, it's a great point. I, I don't want to step over because I, I brought up creatine, so I just want to finish that part. What's your, what's your experience or view on creatine as a, as a kind of a go to supplement.
- [45:26]
B
Completely agree. Yeah. I, you know, interestingly enough, it was probably in the late 90s, I used to be asked by moms if they're, you know, high school football player who's trying to, you know, get off the bench and put on some muscle. Should be taking that if it was safe, you know, and, and I probably didn't know enough at that point to be dangerous. But we know so much more now that I think men, women, I think for muscle, for bone density and for, for brain health. If you're sleep deprived, if you're jet lagged, There are different doses recommended for the brain health and the brain power, but it's, it's a daily, in case anybody's wondering, it's not only on the days you work out, it's not only for bodybuilders, but it's a sweet support for gaining lean muscle.
- [46:16]
A
You mentioned Omega 6. And where do we. Where do we get Omega 6? Where does it show up in our diet? What is. What is a food that is.
- [46:26]
B
Almost every food that we would go to for Omega 3 has more Omega 6. Therein lies the problem. So, you know, there was a time when many women shied away from nuts and seeds because of the fat. And then we kind of got over that, and we understood healthy fat, but we. We've overdone it a little. You know, almonds here and peanuts, nuts there, and sunflower seeds here. But that's a lot of Omega 6 in that little bit of Omega 3 we're getting. So the best sources of Omega 3 to take a detour are really olive oil, extra virgin olive oil, and salmon. They're the only two sources that are really high in three, but not six. And every other source of omega three has six. So nuts and seeds are the. The biggest culprits. That's where we're gonna get the most of it. And we're eating a lot of those kinds of things as snacks, seeds, or butters these days.
- [47:27]
A
And you're saying six is part of the problem with inflammation?
- [47:32]
B
Yeah, and we need some of it, but we're just getting way more than we need. It's. The ratio is off.
- [47:39]
A
Oh, my gosh. Okay. So something you made a really an interesting point around is around training, you know, even myself. You know, like, I. I look at all the years I've trained, and as I've gotten older, I am definitely in pain when I'm training. It's just. And it's not because I'm lifting heavy, because I don't lift heavy, but I am noticing, oh, my gosh, you know, my knees and, you know, a little bit of my arm here and there. Like, there's these little things that start to show up from an inflammation point of view. And, I don't know, I sometimes just go, is this part of the aging process? I guess. But now. Now I have to unpack Omega sixes a little bit. What the heck's going on? You know, I have a. My fundamental is, you know, the old Clint Eastwood, you know, phrase, don't let the old man in. So that's kind of how I operate. But it is interesting to be, you know, to. I do have a very clear stand of how I want to show up and how I want to occur in my own life, and the stand I want to be for health for guys my age, because it really is. I think people in general is, you know, they're they, they give in to the aging process and I'm going, no you don't. I think there's, it's not about living longer. That's I, I mean my mom passed away at 97 years old and you know she did was, you know, as long as I can remember she did yoga and, or she walked. Those were her two go to exercises, mostly walking and she's a very healthy 97 year old. So, so probably a combination of good genetics but that activity. So I think my point is, is that with all that's out there and we, you know, people that are like yourself, that are kind of in it, we don't have to go through what we, some story we're telling ourselves about getting old. There's a way to be very young at an old age, you know, and still be a young 60, 70, 80 year old I think. But you have to work at it. You've got a lot of experience with working with your clients. When you think about the mental component of it, Talking to a 30 year old for example, or talking to a 60 year old or 50 year old who's gone or going through menopause, there's an aspect of it that you still have to break through the mental. I got to work out, I got to put time in, I got to focus on myself. Any and he insights into how to bust through that one. Because you know, to your point, you know I've said for many years, I don't, there's two things. The reason I work, I, I like to eat, I don't like to work out but because I like to eat, I work out. That's, that's one of my go tos and the other one is, is that I'm really vain, therefore I work out. And to your point earlier, is that vanity if that's what drives it and I've always said that, that you know, I don't, I don't lead with my vanity. But it is one of the big reasons that I work out and, and I still hold myself as, you know, somebody who's going to be in the top 2 or 3% of 67 year old men can step up and do a couple of dozen pull ups and, and be okay. You know, that's, that's kind of, that's the benchmark, that's the standard I have for myself and that's what I want to lean into and live into. But I have my own narrative around that and it's still fricking hard. I still have a trainer have to come in at least twice a week. So what is it? Do you have any, any kind of mental workthroughs, breakthroughs for people that you might be able to connect to?
- [51:10]
B
Wow. Okay. Well, I will say this. I think there's an entire continuum out there of motivation. But I will say this to specifically women who are in menopause who struggle with maybe the motivation, the get going, the talking themselves into it, that we are at a disadvantage because not only does estrogen drop, progesterone, testosterone, growth hormone drops, but we have fewer dopamine receptors after menopause. And dopamine is like a feel good hormone. So I think everybody will recognize endorphins, right, the feel good hormones, but those neurotransmitters of dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, those things from moving physically, from listening to music, being outdoors in sunshine, those kinds of feel good hormones. Dopamine is one that we really, really can tap into for exercise. But if you're feeling like I've always been an exerciser and you know, now my workouts are just kind of flat, like I don't actually get that little, that, ah, you know, I don't get that high. You know, it's not something you're doing wrong and yet you might drive yourself into the ground because you're going to try to escalate a little bit with intensity or duration or frequency. And sometimes women are known to do all three of those, which is not really good idea.
- [52:51]
A
Right.
- [52:52]
B
But you know, what we need to do is just be a little more aware of, okay, what I used to do isn't going to work, but maybe if I can take all the things that add up. So you load your, your playlist with all the best songs, all the ones that really motivate you. You go with a friend, you do it outdoors, exposed to sunshine. You're talking along the way. When we look at serotonin specifically, which is slightly different than dopamine, most people who are depressed enough will get prescribed an ssri. It's got serotonin in it. Sunshine, walking and venting with a friend are the trilogy that are as good or better when added together as an SSRI for helping create that serotonin. And that's not saying go off of it, but it may be that if you can dial it up over here, maybe you take less of this with side effects at some point or are able to. But I think you have to just get smarter and realize, I'm going to maybe pull some of these things together that I know are actually working independently to see if I can get a better result when I do them together. But realize it's nothing you're doing wrong. It's actually it did change. It wasn't that you're not trying hard enough. So I just knowing that okay, this is what I'm dealing with right now. But looking at getting on that smart scale, right? So measuring body composition and your muscle mass and looking for the hard evidence that it's working and softer evidence meaning I'm in a better mood, I'm functioning better cognitively, I'm firing with all cylinders better because I worked out today and I'm more active, I'm sleeping better, my libido is better, I have a good appetite, but I don't have the cravings that are not so good. All of those things are suggestions that your exercise is right in the sweet spot. And a lot of things come into play with that. Not just exercise but if your exercise is off, a lot of those things also will be off too. You're doing too much or not enough either way.
- [55:13]
A
So you know, it's interesting that you brought something up and I want to just touch on it briefly because it'll lead into. What I want to ask you about is. So a friend of mine who her and her husband, my friend, my trainer, her, his wife, they, they had gyms and then they went through Covid that all got locked down. They went, they really went through some big challenges and they resurrected and she, you know, Kathy came back with a business four years ago now, three years ago called Hot Mess. It's women only and she doesn't. The reason I asked this question is because they joke about Hot Mess and they go, you know, the part of their marketing is, you know, her and her partner are drinking wine. It's like they, they take it very seriously but they make it fun. We go back to this what, what motivates, what inspires somebody? You know, number one, fun. Number two, what you said is that you know, you're surrounded with other women. You're, you're also having a space to have those kinds of convers conversations. But do you think that there's a stigma because of a benchmark like you People are listening on audio, aren't seeing you but you're, you're a young 60 year old fit, high benchmark for most women. Like you're, you're in that higher percent of women. So is there an unrealistic expectation? So I go back to. For women it's like I look at it and Go, just frickin walk. I don't care if you don't do anything else. I'm not a coach, but you know, women who are complaining or men in general who might be complaining about this or that, I go, listen, just freaking walk, get out for a 40 minute walk and if you can't do anything else, just do that. I'm always looking at it. Some is better than none. Are you feeling like. I get a sense there's benchmarks in these conversations that maybe actually don't inspire people, may influence fact, shut them down. What's your experience or thought on that?
- [57:07]
B
Ooh, yeah, all of that. Really great to unpack. And I think that unintentionally this was just in a presentation to a group of about 600 physicians a couple weeks ago. I said, I think we have to watch our messaging. 80% of the population, that tells us by survey, meaning there's probably more, are not lifting weights the twice weekly minimum for just metabolic health. I mean we're not talking about getting fit, we're not talking about performance level, looking buff. We're just talking metabolic health so you don't die, don't get disease. They're not doing that. So if we know 80% are self reporting that they're not, there's probably more out there not doing it. And the 20% who are are tuning into every podcast in every timeline and they're getting all the tips. And 80% of those, we may be unintentionally intimidating because you know, a doctor who's an orthopedic surgeon right now is 53 and she's jumping on a 24 inch box doing plyometrics, saying this is 53. And I'm like, wow, it's not for everybody. So we have to be careful. I think we don't mean to do it, we mean it to be. This can be your 53 is how we mean it. But that's not necessarily how it's heard. So I think we do have to be careful and we have to say, you know, here's where I'd start and we have to go back to the finish line. And I think in, I think trainers and I am saying this globally and I totally realize I'm a trainer and I represent that industry, so if I throw one under the bus, I throw me under the bus too. But I think we have a lot of growing up to do in the fitness industry and a lot of times I think trainers feel pressure to get clients results really fast to the tune of maybe injuring them. Making a little too sore at first and really making it feel like this is hard and hurts and I don't like it it. And so, you know, again, I think 80% of the people, if we can keep them close to our hearts, they're the ones who need us. The ones who stand in the front row and kick higher than we do, don't need our help. They're going to do it anyway. Right? So I think if we err on the conservative side, we may end up helping far more people. Because I've been doing this now almost 42 years. When I sat in a classroom as an undergraduate in 1984, the statistics were exactly the same as they are today. We're not getting anywhere.
- [60:00]
A
There's a part of it too, which is, you know, my observation as well is that is, you know, whatever shows up in your feed, you know, there's a lot of young people setting benchmarks for what fit is and how you can look and how it is. You know, lots of fitness coaches out there, that age group category. But I think, you know what I really, when you showed up as a potential guest, what I liked about it was your maturity. You've been on the planet a long time, yes, you have a benchmark, but you're speaking from somebody who's got the experience, who've been there, done it, been through it, understand it, you know, don't have a bunch of ego wrapped around it. And that makes a huge difference. I think in terms of messaging that we need to and that we'd want to share, that's kind of my view of it. Like at my point, watching a 35 year old say, well, this is how I got ripped and you see my abs and you know, I did this and I did that, I don't really care. Like it's, it's not, you know, like it's, it so shuts me down in terms of, you know, I'm just not interested. I think there's a place where, you know, there's a conversation around coaches, you know, or as a coach myself, I'm looking to enter the conversation where the person is, not where I'm at. I'm looking to enter the conversation where a potential client is at, not where I'm at. And I'm finding more and more is that as I'm observing this and this is difference even with how you are responding in this conversation, you are working to enter the conversation where potential listeners and potential clients are at as opposed to where you're at. And that makes a really big Difference, I think number one in terms of how we get the message out there because if we keep entering the conversation at this level where people don't understand or they don't relate, we're, they're not going to hear the message. Does that make sense, Deborah?
- [61:51]
B
In terms of completely, yeah, it does. And this may be a little pivot, but I, I feel like there's a place to inject this here and I want to that. But in terms of those, those 35 year old trainers or whatever it might be, actually you could be a 60 year old trainer and be relatively new because we saw so many trainers and health coaches both enter the field. Like during the pandemic, I think a lot of people exited their jobs and just decided I want to do something I love and enjoy. And this is a field a lot of people love and enjoy. I mean, you know, front desk, you save the front desk in a fitness center or working in fitness in any way, it's the best place to be. Nobody leaves in a worse mood than they came in. Right. You can't say that about a lot of places. But you know, the alarm. I don't know why it took me so long to even think about this, but Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book, I think Tipping Point and Outliers. He's written a couple great ones. But in one of those books he pointed out, you know, the quote about becoming an Expert takes like 10,000 reps. If you think about during the pandemic starting in 2020, people who got their certification, they got it online and then they became influencers and they're only looking in the mirror, they haven't had any repetitions. Looking at bodies and looking at lever links and what kind of cues does someone need to hear right now before they know to ask me that? I'm thinking people don't know the difference between an expert and an influencer anymore.
- [63:41]
A
Yeah, well, it's interesting too. There is some fundamentals with age and experience and the wisdom that comes with age. It's not that we, it's not because we're particularly wise, but we've been through life. Life. A 35 year old does not relate in any way, shape or form to a 60 year old in terms of physicalness. She just can't because she's not that age. Whereas somebody who's 60 totally relates to that because that, that's the age they're at. I'm going to just share a little bit of a narrative with you and I don't know, I, I think I, I Feel compelled in terms of sharing it with you. And then I want to. I want to unpack it a little bit from an inspiration or motivation point of view. I'd like to get your thoughts on this because over the years, what I've discovered and, and again, I'm blessed to have an amazing wife who is in some amazing space that she plays in and coaches around. But I learned this from her many, many years ago. It was a context for women particularly. It applies to men, too, by the way, which is we are all the center of our universe. We just are. Women are the center of their universe. And the. A genetic, I'm going to call it genetic predisposition is to be caregivers. They want to give, they want to. They want to support. They want. So they're constantly giving, giving, giving. Okay? They're looking after kids, they're looking after husbands and in laws and outlaws and community, and they're doing. They're giving, giving, giving. Right? So. But they. So many, sadly don't understand that they're busy giving. And when somebody suggests that they do something for themselves, they immediately go into, I feel guilty. And that could be from anything from spending money to going on a trip or hanging out with girlfriends or, or fitness or looking after themselves. And I, and I took that script a little bit because that's pretty. I think, I know I'm generalizing, but in terms of women, where I got to with all of that and I learned over the years is there is nothing. And this is the permission that I support women around you. The most selfless thing you can do is look out for yourself, train, give yourself time. When I'm coaching men, I'm going, here's what I want you to do. Men, you're having a tough time with your relationship. Here's what I want you to do. And again, I'm giving full credit to my wife from many years ago. She taught me this, and I've shared this with many men. Men. And, and that is, men insist, walk up with a gift card for your woman, your wife, significant other, to a spa and make sure she does whatever she needs to do in terms of what she wants to have. Pedicure, manicure, facial, all the things that women generally love but feel guilty about. Like, how do I take that 150 bucks or 100 bucks or 200 bucks? Like, oh, the kids need new shoes. And we, you know, we got this and we got that. That without realizing that looking after themselves is absolutely crucial to their ability to look after their families. So I go on that little bit of a rant, because so many. I found over the years, my experience is that women have a tendency to not look after themselves. But when they do look after themselves and when they have a husband or significant other that's going, no, this isn't an option for you. I got the kids, I got the dig. Go, you're going for a massage. It's all booked. Here's your gift card. Boom, handled. So long kind of explanation. What's your experience on that as well?
- [67:23]
B
I think that's just spot on. I think, you know, we have a membership. We have a thriving membership. We have anywhere, like hovering around a thousand. And when people leave, you know, we will go back to them as a good business person would and say, we want you back. And what we find when people come back by invitation like that is that the reason they left wasn't discontent. It was life got in the way. Meaning someone else got in the way. They were a caregiver to it, and maybe an aged parent or their young kids or their kids, kids needed them. But that was it. It was a life disrupt. It wasn't budget, it wasn't something else. 9 out of 10 times. And so I think it's very true. Interestingly enough, we have three or four women's retreats throughout the year because do you know, people like, we are so over taking a selfie. Like, I don't need to see your abs. In fact, I often will say, just put your clothes on. Can you give me the same message with your clothes on? I so respect you more. But yes, you're cute and your abs are great, but just do we have to. But we have women come. And at the end of the last one or two, I have said, you know, some of you have traveled here with your spouses and, and I, they're dropping them off at venues. And I was like, would you like to do, like, something that included partners? You know, have a simultaneous. You know, there's something going on for partners, not necessarily with us, but maybe, you know, I painted that picture and almost immediately, no, this is the only thing I do for myself, you know. And then some were more polite. Some like, Deborah, I don't think we need to do that. But others were very, like, adamant. Like, no, not one of them said, that'd be great. This is mine.
- [69:34]
A
Yeah, it's. It's so. It is so such an interesting psychology that we have to go through and old stories and our old ways of being. I want to ask you a question is based again on a Little, little experience I have in that area. But, but Stephanie, my way works a lot with, of course, with athletes, female athletes as well. And in that, you know, you go back to see your abs. Like, I mean, for a woman to see her abs, body fat is exceptionally low. And, and certainly with young women, my understanding is they will actually know their period stops. They don't have a cycle anymore because they're five. That I think is, I don't know if that's reason. It's my understanding of it. So does that, what does that do into a future state of menopause? Because if somebody's listening to this, listening to this, and is very. All the thing has actually her cycle is stopped for the time being. Does that have an effect long term, or do we know?
- [70:36]
B
Yeah, it's a great question. I would have to say this first. I don't know, because that doesn't happen very often. Often. All right, yes, it's, you know, there are a lot of women wish they had that problem and needed to figure it out. But the only time I do see that is right now. I have to throw this in because it's very relevant and timely that as people are using GLP1s, you know, a lot of them are maybe taking it too far. And, you know, I see people where it's like, okay, I, I, there's no space between your legs whatsoever, and there is literally an inverted U there. I'm like, there's no padding. I mean, what if we get another epidemic? You know, and heaven forbid we don't, but I do think we need some padding there. We, you know, you're a step away from, okay, everything you've got is muscle. Okay, great. But are you not just a step away from frailty? I think it's just a fine line. And I, I do think that this will really throw a curve into what you thought might have been the end. But we see a resurgence of eating disorders, of a disordered way of, you know, we're again at this end of control of the lives. Like, we don't, we're out of control again. And that's really when you see it start, is when young women's bodies change or life changes and they go to college. You see that, that is when eating disorders tend to get at heightened stages. But we do see it again at midlife. And I think menopause is a part of it. But the bigger worry, because we don't have this evidence, and I, I say this to our audience sometimes, is there's no evidence that everything is dysfunctional because we've lost that regulatory justice piece that you just want to ask, what if I were to get sick or what if I were to be, you know, ill? Do I have something to rely on? You don't want that percent body fat to go so low that you don't.
- [72:54]
A
Yeah, it's fine for an athlete. But do we also have, do we have, I guess, you know, really things have morphed into unrealistic expectations as well. That goes those moments in time of pictures and social media and the different platforms and, and the just how vocal. Like I think there's some real unrealistic expectations and it's hard for, I think for many women to even know what the benchmark there should be living into. I don't know, I think it's, it's a very confusing world in that regard. I mean, you must be bumping up across that against that all the time with the stories that women are telling themselves of what it should be and what they ought to need to do and are supposed to do. I mean, there's got to be some pretty big stories out there that are just not true.
- [73:41]
B
Well, I think everybody, Scott, I want to get back to where I used to be, you know, and sad truth is we're not going back there. I mean, we're just not. I mean, and we also, I think have to ask the fair question is what if it's better out here? What if it could be that or better? You know, we forget to ask that other sided question.
- [74:06]
A
Great question. Question, great question, you know. Okay, so for men, husbands, significant others of some sort, what can men do that best supports their significant other or somebody they know that's going through menopause? Is it just patience? Is it, you know, don't respond like, what is the, what is the, what's some kind of talk? Top two or three tips that they could take.
- [74:36]
B
I think get curious is probably the most. Just respectfully say, I'm hearing so much about this, but we never talk about it. What is this like for you? I think that's a benign question and it's safe.
- [74:54]
A
My, my, my response to men who have said to me, oh, my wife is going through menopause. I always, my, my response is remember to breathe. That's what I got. That's what I got for advice. So, Deborah, let's. I want to talk about you, you know, in the journey of, of the conversation. You know, you're an expert in what you do. You got a thriving business, you love to do what you do, you've done TEDx talks, you've written books. What got you here? Like why, you know, how did you end up at this point in your life? You didn't just start is what I'm assuming. But how do you find yourself on this journey at this point in your life?
- [75:42]
B
You know, when I was 49, I made a pivotal decision and I could, I could see in the fitness industry that it wasn't everything that I wished it was. And it was like from the movie National Treasure, is it? Nicholas Cage is the main actor and he says something like, if you see that something is wrong and you see that there is a better way, you have the responsibility of fixing it or being that. So I would say there, you know, like I can, I can keep complaining about it or I can shut up and do something about it. So I quit everything, quit working in the university, in a private sector and literally, I mean, I cut paychecks and TIAA crap funds and all safety and security. And I'm sure my stepfather was rolling over his grave and say, what are you doing? But I wanted to help trainers and those fitness pros that I had been teaching at a university. We lose the good ones, the ones who have the 4.0 and have a heart and the intellect, because they can't market and sell. And if we lose that and you can't find them, you find somebody who may be better at marketing, but who can't really help. And I just thought, this isn't right. And these people really want to do it, they just don't know how. And I know that in a four year degree we don't teach them marketing and selling. And I am a subject matter expert for certifications and nowhere in that do they get marketing and selling. And so I, I, for whatever reason, I don't know why, but it was always easy for me to see it's my responsibility. I can't help them if I can't work with them. So somehow there was an easy way in integrity that I was able to gain clients. And I wanted to teach that formula to other people. Five minutes later I thought, I, like am irrelevant unless I'm actually doing it. This would be dumb. And I thought, so I need to pick a niche and I need to grow that niche and show them here's what's working. So I thought, who've I been working with for 30 years? What niche do I want? And boomers had been the loudest voice, the females that I'd worked with. And so I started flipping 50 and that took off and now I'm full circle. So we're actually training trainers and health coaches to use the framework that I used to grow from literally zero. I mean zero. On my 50th birthday, I was sleeping in the basement apartment of my niece with a dog, her dogs upstairs, three kids and a husband. Not what you see for yourself at 50. I, but I was like, if I can do this, you can do this. There's nothing special about what I did. And so now we're able to teach them how to grow businesses and be better coaches. And I'm having a bigger impact with women in midlife and menopause. And now we're starting to tap into teaching physicians how to prescribe exercise because patients still lean on them for the authority and the credibility that they have, but they have less exercise than they have nutrition in medical school and that's about two hours.
- [79:23]
A
It is really shocking when you look at GPS and the lack of education around health and fitness overall and certainly nutrition. I mean those are big gaps in that kind of world. So the fact that you can attract them into your world, I mean, that's got to be great. When you were, were you always athletic by nature when you were a kid growing up? I mean, here you are entrepreneurial. Did you come from an entrepreneurial background? When you're a kid growing up, were you athletic as a kid growing up in school?
- [79:58]
B
So entrepreneurial background? Definitely not. I worked or my son, stepfather was a man who worked for a company for 40 years and got the pen and the clock on retirement. And I had a Kool Aid stand and then I sold my old toys out on a cardboard table, you know, at the front. I remember losing a quarter in the grass. That was my change. And I ran upstairs to my mom is I lost my quarter, I need another quarter. She's like, oh, that's not how it works. And I'm like, this is hard. That was my entry level into entrepreneurship. But as far as athleticism, no. And I think that's what made the difference. So I went out for the sports where you could stand still. I went to golf and I played second base. And at that point you didn't have to run laps for either. And so I was good. It was sweet. I didn't actually take up self initiated exercise until between my high school and freshman year in college. And I was post graduation. A lot of cinnamon rolls, a lot of cake, a lot of parties and I was going to be a lifeguard. So I started walking with my mom to get rid of that whatever extra. And by the time I went to college, I was jogging for the first time in any. I loved it for the first time. It wasn't laps. It wasn't, I have to do this run for the President's Fitness Test. It was like, wow. My second year into graphic design as a college student, I realized college graphic design majors smoke, drink, and stay up all night to do their projects. I don't fit in here. So I stuck one foot in physical education, and at the end of the semester, I'd had some really great instructors. And I said, I want to do this. I want to teach people how to feel the way I feel, how to be better. Students, parents, bosses, doctors, lawyers, whatever they're going to do, they're going to feel better doing it if they have this thing. And I can teach it better than some of the examples I've seen. So I'm going to do this. My parents were like, you're going to major in what? Like, you know, because aerobics, fitness wasn't a thing. Then they're like, well, how are you going to work afterwards? There's a little concern there.
- [82:32]
A
Yeah, that's funny. There's a fundamental that I think that, you know, when I look at fitness, I've always said to people, I don't, you know, I want to live a long time, but aside from wanting to live longer, I don't work out to live longer. I hope that's a side benefit. But I definitely work out because I want the quality of my life while I'm alive to be awesome. And, you know, physically, in order to achieve that, you have to put in the time. That's. That's how I look at it. And that's the view of the world that I have. So, you know, it is interesting that as we go on these journeys, as we grow up and we start to go on these different paths, you ultimately connect to. Seeing what you said, which I think is so brilliant, is that whatever you're doing when you are physically healthy, you are mentally more present and having way more fun in life in general. And I. I don't think, you know, it's funny, my trainer, we talk about this stuff a lot. And, you know, I'll say to Juan, I go, dude, like, I'm so not. I do not want to work out to today. Like, I don't want to do it. And we laugh about it. And because we notice the mental and emotional kind of highs and lows about training, not training, I go, you're going to make your Money today, because I don't want to work out today. Like, that's. That's how it is. But there's other times where I'll go, you know, I just feel great. Like, I want to work out. I want to even lift a little heavier. I want to go a little bit harder. I feel good. And he goes, write it down, as you said. Use it as a reminder of when you're having shitty days. And I started making little I journal anyways, a little bit, so. Or a lot sometimes. But those mental notes that we make for ourselves, they do matter. They actually are beneficial for us to stay in that thought process. I don't know where I was going with that based on our conversation, but I felt the need to say something along that line.
- [84:28]
B
I think such a great point, though, for anybody who's listening is, you know, I don't even want to do it every day. It's like. But I do, because I know that the reward at the end is going to come, that I'm going to feel better having done it than I did if I skipped it. But not everybody is in the mood to do it every day.
- [84:54]
A
Day.
- [84:54]
B
It's a. It's a discipline thing. It's. Well, it's. It's commitment, right?
- [85:00]
A
Yeah, it is commitment. It is discipline. I. We, Stephanie, my wife and I did a podcast recently, was where does discipline go? Where does it go? Like, some days, I am so disciplined, and my systems, all the things I have in place to maintain my discipline. But then sometimes. And then, where does it go? And next, you know, two days later, I wake up, I go, what the hell? I have no discipline. It is funny how that word and the impact of discipline, people call it habits. I go, I think habits are bullshit. Like in the phrase, I can't remember who wrote atomic habits, doesn't matter. His name would come to me. But I look at it and I go, it isn't about habits. It's about discipline. And the habits, I guess, are more about how you create the environment for yourself and the process for yourself to make it easier so that, you know, you don't need willpower to get it. It's just in your faith. It's like those little tricks of when you wake up in the morning, don't put on a house coat, put on your workout gear. It's a first step in getting you closer to the door. Like, these are little things that also take discipline. So, I don't know, we could debate discipline basis versus habit. But anyways, that's. That's the way that goes, we've covered a lot of ground. Deborah, is there a message or something that we didn't cover that you would want to make sure listeners hear?
- [86:19]
B
I think the only thing we haven't really said is it's never too late. Never too late. And there's plenty of research right there to say, you know, we've got 90 year olds who start lifting weights and they make strength gains and, you know, cognitive decline improves. So there is no. Do you wish that you would have started it yesterday or that you'd always worked out? You know, I think, think you actually have a more exciting future than we do because there's nothing like being a virgin. So start right now.
- [86:59]
A
Start right now. So good. There's another little anecdotal and I don't have the actual data in front of me to support it, but when you listen to many of the, you know, experts, quote unquote, and, and I. And there's all sorts of guys out there that are very credible in what they do. People, People. I don't want to just say guys, but the, the reality of it is that the, when we do things that we literally would attach a word of hate. Like, I don't use hate, I got F bomb before I use the word hate, but because that's in my world that just the negative connotation of that word. But when you do things you hate, when you like, if you hate working out and you do it anyways, the, the positive impact that has on our mental space, on our brain and how we see the world is huge. It's huge. It is really getting past the self talk that says, nah, it's, you know, I woke up too late, I'm too tired, I hurt a little bit. All the excuses, of course, that we put in front of ourselves not to do something, but the psychological and brain benefits, mind benefits of, of pushing through, that doing the thing you hate is, is huge. So I don't know if you've got any data that you've supported or if you've heard that same narrative or not, but less data.
- [88:20]
B
But yeah, a friend of mine who's also a coach said coaches give the best coach advice, right? But you know, it's. You keep your promise to yourself. Boy, that is pretty powerful. And she said this to me, me, because she actually came to me for coaching on exercise. Uber disciplined and in every other category, but not that. And she's finally said, you know, what I decided I had to do is tell myself, stop lying to yourself. Like, if I didn't do it. And I said I was going to. I'm lying to myself. And that carried a lot of power for her.
- [89:02]
A
I work with small businesses and principals, founders and CEOs of small businesses. And one of my phrases that I came to many years ago through another coach friend of mine from years ago and he coined the phrase high performance is a result of low tolerances. So when you unpack that message and there's lots of things to unpack around that statement, treatment it. Well, we used it in the, in the world of business and culture and environment and what are you setting yourself up for and what does it all mean? But the question we have to ask ourselves in that high performance as a result of low tolerances, but what do we tolerate with ourselves? It goes back to what you just said. You know, quit lying to yourself. You know, what are we tolerating? We're tolerating with the bullshit that we, that we share. Right? We tolerate our lies and we got to quit it. Stop it. Everybody just stop it.
- [90:01]
B
So true.
- [90:04]
A
I'll go on a whole rant if I'm not careful. So. Okay, so let's start to wind this conversation down and I'll do it. We, we. I just do some kind of light and arguably fun questions as we wind down the show.
- [90:18]
B
I feel like I need to brace myself.
- [90:23]
A
These are easy. They're all intended to be, you know, to find easy. Okay, you ready for some fast paced questions that generally aren't that fast, but we're going to try it anyways. Okay, here's an easy one. Apple or Android?
- [90:36]
B
Apple.
- [90:38]
A
Good for you. Have you always been an Apple person?
- [90:41]
B
Yeah.
- [90:43]
A
You weren't PC?
- [90:44]
B
Well, I was at the beginning. It's just been a really long time.
- [90:48]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I.
- [90:51]
B
Once you go Apple, you never go back.
- [90:53]
A
Yeah, that's true. That's so true. Do you have a favorite genre of music, A favorite song, a favorite band?
- [91:00]
B
Motown.
- [91:01]
A
Oh, interesting. I would. I don't know if it's my favorite, but it's up there for sure. Good one. Favorite movie?
- [91:08]
B
Oh, gosh. I don't know if I have a favorite. I like a lot of them, but wizard of Oz.
- [91:16]
A
Ah, okay. That's good. That's a classic.
- [91:20]
B
Yeah.
- [91:21]
A
Have they. They don't. I don't think they've ever remade wizard of Oz, have they? No, I don't think they have. No, I think they should. I think it's a great idea. Okay, we digress so quickly. Favorite swear word.
- [91:33]
B
Can I say this on this show.
- [91:35]
A
Of Course you can.
- [91:36]
B
Okay. Fuck.
- [91:38]
A
Fuck, yes.
- [91:41]
B
Can I say a side story? This is so nice. Not rapid fire. We had a tragic death in our family in 2016, and I never said fuck more than that year, but I also never said I love you more. How ironic. Yeah.
- [91:58]
A
Isn't it, though? Hey. Yeah, I think it's. It's just such an appropriate word. I sometimes have guests, they. When I ask that question, they go, no, I don't swear. How is that even possible?
- [92:12]
B
And then you didn't air the show because.
- [92:15]
A
That's right. You're obviously not fully expressed, you know, favorite book and. Or one that you, you know, was a. A kind of a. Was maybe a created a fork in the road moment for you, something that really is memorable or that you like to gift or recommend.
- [92:36]
B
Gosh, I love books so much. Ironically, as we're talking, I'm sitting in a room and.
- [92:40]
A
And.
- [92:41]
B
And you can see my shelves are bare. So I realized after I sat down, oh, my gosh, we packed all these up. I'm moving. And they're like friends sitting in these boxes. But I would have to say something really simple about my favorite book. It's the first book I read completely by myself. It was a Dr. Seuss book. 10 apples. 10. 10 apples up on top. Something like that.
- [93:07]
A
That if God exists, what do you want to hear God say when you get to the gates?
- [93:15]
B
Well done.
- [93:16]
A
Well done. I'm sure that will be the least of which he says. Final question. What are you grateful for, Deborah?
- [93:24]
B
Oh, definitely family, definitely. The good times, the bad times, the losses, the grief, the. The thing that rings true is the amount of love in the room.
- [93:40]
A
I agree. I am always, always grateful. And I state this always. I'm always grateful I had the opportunity to meet guests like you. Like you. I'm also very grateful for my family, my significant others, and I appreciate the time that you gave today. Very grateful.
- [93:59]
B
That.
- [94:00]
A
So. Thank you very much, Deborah.
- [94:02]
B
Thank you so much for having me.
- [94:05]
A
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening. If you found value in the podcast, please take the time to rate and review and share with others. Share with your friends as it is my goal to always improve and to provide the highest value for you, the listener. If you have any comments, suggestions, or questions you'd like to answered, please email me at CEO@raincanada.com. that's CEO@reincanada.com. i look forward to hearing from you. And until next time. Patrick.
- [94:38]
B
Oh.