Tara Moore (4:37)

Hi Tara, welcome to the Everyday Style School. We are so happy to have you here today.

Mary (4:42)

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited for our conversation so.

Tara Moore (4:46)

I want to just start out sharing my story about reaching out to you. So I told you when we first hopped on this little chat today that I don't fangirl often but this is a huge fan girl moment for me and I follow you on Instagram and one day I was scrolling, scrolling, scrolling and a post from you came up and I thought I should just reach out and ask her if she'd be on my show. That would be my Playing Big moment. And I have this little voice that says who would want to be on your show? Well maybe when you get to 2 million downloads. Maybe when you get to 5 million downloads, like, there's always this thing that I have to reach before I feel like I have a seat at the table. And then I channeled my. My inner Angie, my friend Angie Schneau, who she is. I said Angie would do it. Angie would just send the dm. So I just sent the DM and I heard back from someone on your team, like within a day. And it was so lovely. It was so lovely. And I thought, wait a minute. What if I just hadn't spoken up? What if I just hadn't had that moment where I just shot my shot?

Mary (5:51)

Right.

Tara Moore (5:52)

Everyone listening to this would not have the benefit of hearing from you. And I just. I first of all want to thank Angie for giving me that playing big moment, but also for you for writing that book and inspiring women to. To play a little bit bigger. So. So thank you. It's a journey. It's a process. We're all on it. Right?

Mary (6:11)

Amazing. Yeah, I. I love that story. There's so much we could unpack in there.

Jennifer Mackey (6:17)

We could just stay there, really.

Mary (6:18)

I mean, we could take that as our template because it's that voice of self doubt that you talked about. And so often, us brilliant women, the voice of self doubt does not say, you are an absolutely horrible. It's like a little sneakier than that. Right? It says, oh, just wait till you get to 2 million downloads. Like, it has an argument. And it has this kind of illusion, like, later, I'm going to let you do these things, which the later never comes. So I love that that's in your story. Also, you kind of played a cognitive trick on yourself by saying, what would Angie do? And then you found your way into action. And that's really powerful too, because one of the things I found, you know, over these years working with women around self doubt is we don't always have to go into 10 years of therapy and dig up the deep, deep root of that self doubt. Sometimes there's a practice we can do in the moment that helps us leapfrog it. And that's what you did.

Tara Moore (7:20)

I love that. I love that. Because I think we can all sit around and talk about it for years and years and years, but there does come a moment where you're like, I just got to send that email. I just got to send that dm. I just have to do something.

Mary (7:32)

Yes, yes. And understanding why I might feel self doubt or what are the things that happen in my life, like, that doesn't usually help it go away. In the case of the inner critic, it's really the muscles and the skills that we can use in the moment to choose, choose a different path. That is what we need.

Tara Moore (7:51)

Okay, I love that so much. We're going to come back to it. But I don't want to leave our listeners in the dark. So for, for our listeners who have not carried this book around for years, this well loved, well worn book, can you just, in a nutshell, tell us what playing big is all about?

Mary (8:08)

Yes, absolutely. Many years ago I started a small coaching practice. I knew I wanted to work with people around creating the lives and careers they and really work with people around, like, how does our inner life affect what we get to do and create in our life? That's all I kind of knew about my focus. But what happened early in my coaching practice is my clients were all these wonderful women full of personality and ideas and care for our world. And again and again I would hear them doubting their abilities, doubting their readiness to start that business or take on that community leadership role role or ask for something they wanted at work or start the creative project that they had been daydreaming about. So much self doubt and it was so starkly in contrast to how capable they clearly were. And I could really relate to that. I was also like, wait, I have so many reasons to feel confident. I had another full time job at the time. I was like, I'm doing well in my job, I don't feel confident there. I did well in school, I got the gold stars. That didn't add up to confidence. And how are we going to create this more wonderful world of women creating and leading if we are holding back in these ways? So I got really interested in that. And just playing big and playing small are sort of a shorthand for all of that self doubting and holding back that we do. And I got interested in why are we playing small? And then more importantly, how do we play bigger? And playing bigger to me is not what does the world think is big? What's the biggest title? What's the biggest paycheck? It's not that it's your own self defined. What is your courageous playing big? And my kind of working definition of playing big is that playing big is being more loyal to your dreams than to your fears.

Tara Moore (10:09)

Oh, I love that. I love that. One of the biggest themes of the book is the idea of the inner critic versus the inner mentor.

Mary (10:20)

Yeah.

Tara Moore (10:21)

Can you talk about those a little bit?

Mary (10:23)

Yes, yes. So how do we start to do that playing big that inner playing big a lot has to do with quieting the voice of self doubt. I always say it's the first thing I do with women in a course or in a coaching situation. Because if you don't quiet self doubt, you kind of can't use anything else you've learned, right? Like you might even, you might be learning about personal style, you might be learning negotiation tips, but you don't even get to implement any of it if you are immediately overcome by that voice that says, who do you think you are? And ugh, you look ridiculous and you're going to be made a fool of. So kind of from the gate, we need some basic skills in quieting that inner critic voice. And we can talk more about how we do that and how I think of that. So that's what that's all about is recognizing all of us have this inner critic voice. And I can tell you, you know, whether it's stay at home, mom, or partner in a law firm, whether you're 20 or you're 80, I mean, I have worked with such wide ranging groups of women and anytime I convince myself, you know, be like, oh, well, these women aren't going to have an inner critic. They already ran for office and won. Or these women aren't going to have an inner critic. You know, they're at 50 years into amazing lives and work. And that voice is there for all of us. And so we have to learn to manage it. And then there's this other voice that I think of as the inner mentor. Some of us may feel a little familiar with this voice. A lot of us never really were talked to about a part of us that's like this. But the inner menor is like the wise, calm elder within us. And in the playing big work, we do a guided visualization and anyone can do it. You can get it in the book. You can get it even if you don't have the book on my website, it takes about 20 minutes and it's just a meditation to really encounter your older, wiser self. And I'd love to hear if you've had experience with this exercise and what your experience was like. But from what happens for so many women is they meet this really vivid sense of their older self. And that's so important because mentors are great, but no mentor has all the right answers for us. And no mentor knows exactly what our unique right path is. And so then we can sort of consult with that voice, like both asking her help, I need advice in this situation. And what does that Part of me have to say, but also just picturing, like, how would she show up at this tense family gathering? How would she approach this potential job application process? How would she talk to my kid's teacher when it feels really charged and, like, a hard subject to raise? And we then can kind of live into her. And to me, that's the best way to live into our playing big because we're being pulled by a very compelling, true vision for us. We're not, like, pushing ourselves harder.

Tara Moore (13:29)

I think every woman right now, without doing 20 minutes of guided visualization, can hear her inner critic. Like, it is loud and it is there and it is immediate. Why are we so in tune with our inner critic? But we gotta dig deep to find our inner mentor.

Jennifer Mackey (13:45)

Where does that start?

Mary (13:47)

So one is, I think we get a lot more reinforcement for the inner critic in the culture and in our lives. Right. Like, we have critical people in our lives who teach us how to talk to ourselves critically. Maybe fashion magazines taught us to talk to ourselves critically. Maybe teachers did, or people that we were closer to. So we kind of get planted with those narratives. But also, the inner critic is really rooted in our fears. It's the fear of not fitting in, the fear of failing, the fear of embarrassing ourselves. Those are kind of what turn into inner critic thoughts. And fear is loud because fear is trying to help us survive in this world. The inner mentor voice, I often feel like it's quieter because it's actually more loving and respectful of us, and so it's waiting to be invited to the conversation.

Tara Moore (14:42)

Ooh. But we're not really inviting her very often.

Mary (14:45)

Right, Right. So the inner critic is an intruder, and it's great to think of it that way. Right. So if you're having the thought. Ugh, you know, I'm not going to say that. That's ridiculous. That voice, that thought is not the core of you. That voice is actually invading, intruding on the core of you, which is the part that said, oh, I have an idea. And that idea feels like it might be fun to share. The inner mentor is like. You could picture her. She's very secure in her seat. You know, maybe yours is sitting in a beautiful armchair by the fireplace. Or maybe she's sitting on a, you know, a beautiful hillside outdoors in nature. She's going to stay in her seat and not intrude. And you have to go to her and slow down and get a little bit quiet and say, okay, what do you have to say about this situation? Or, how do you see this situation? And Then she'll answer the other thing. I'd say that's kind of interesting in terms of research that we know about left brain versus right brain and all kinds of things. The inner critic tend to be very verbal. It has a lot of words for us. It's more cerebral. And sometimes our inner mentor voice will answer us more with a feeling or more with images, which is interesting because you're. I mean, it's interesting talking to you. You're working with people around style, and in a way, style is all about what visuals resonate with me. What are the visuals I want to express in the world. So if you ask your inner mentor, how would you approach this job situation? You will not get a paragraph. You might get a couple words like common collaboration or something like that, where you go, oh, I get what that means. I can kind of feel that. But you also might get a picture. Like, you might just see yourself walking in in a certain way with a certain presence and calm, and you can watch the movie and go, oh, I get that. That would be really different. So another reason we feel like we don't hear from her as much is because we're not really socialized to trust answers that come through imagery or feelings. We're usually looking for the paragraph and.

Tara Moore (17:14)

The verbal plan, like, give me a sign. And we're literally looking for a sign with text on it.

Mary (17:20)

With text, with text. With text.

Tara Moore (17:22)

Okay.

Mary (17:23)

But I think. I bet if your listeners think about the things that have powerfully pulled them forward in their life, you know, maybe they saw a certain picture of how they wanted their family life to look. Maybe they saw something on Pinterest or Instagram where they were like, yeah, that maybe they always had a picture of, like, how that they wanted that living room to feel. So imagery is so powerful in sort of helping us create our next chapters and helping us really uncover what's pulling us.

Tara Moore (17:57)

Is that difficult for us, though, to. To get this sort of mental picture and then have to decipher it? Because I might get a picture of me walking in somewhere calm and collected, which never happens. But maybe I get that. That picture in my head and I go, oh, that's not me. I can't do that. Like, how do we start to translate that image to action and really figure out what it means?

Mary (18:22)

It can be. And in fact, the part of our mind that jumps on and says, I need to know what it means today is also kind of that part that we want to go, yeah, or maybe not. You know, maybe not. I don't know. What to. Right. Maybe I don't need to know what it means in that literal sense. So I might say to someone then like, yeah, let's just see what happens. If you live with that image for a couple weeks, just let it be there, see what else it sparks. Let the possibilities come of living into it versus you have to know right now exactly what it means. And then, you know, the other thing I'll say, sometimes images are very literal. Like, oh, I'm seeing my inner mentor. She's writing, you know, she's painting. I say picture for painting. For some people that means like, oh yeah, it's time to paint. You know, I always wanted to paint. But for someone else that might be like, yeah, she's really creative. And I just want my creativity to come out more when I'm making breakfast, when I'm getting dressed, when I'm leading a meeting, like, so sometimes those images are kind of symbolic in themselves and sometimes they're more literal. And usually when we really reflect, we kind of know like where that's leading us.

Tara Moore (19:34)

The first thing that struck me, that really resonated with me reading the book was this idea of women who tell themselves we are motivated by our inner critic, that our inner critic makes us better. And I was like, that's so me and you. Then the next page were like, no, knock it off. That is not how we do it.

Mary (19:57)

That is not how we do it going forward.

Tara Moore (20:02)

Can you talk a little bit about that? About how we believe that beating ourselves up makes us better?

Mary (20:08)

Oh, it's so huge. I'm so glad you brought this up. So that can sound like in our heads, kind of like, well, yeah, if I just accepted my body, however it was, would I limit what I'm eating? That's scary to not do that. Or would I still get on the treadmill if I wasn't being self critical? Or for many women, it's that inner critic voice saying, you're going to screw it up, you're not prepared enough. That's what makes us double check our work. That's what makes us prepare extra hard. Right? And also say, you know, we know from a lot of research that both women and people of color, both in school and in the workplace, do more preparatory work. It's like we're more primed to have that self doubt. And a lot of times we learn like, I have to be twice as good to even be taken seriously or to get the job or to get the promotion. So we start doing all that extra work and often then that kind of becomes inner critic fueled work. And we do this also to our kids, right? Like we might think by being critical of them, we're helping them be more motivated and perform better. So it shows up in lots of different ways when we're being motivated by the inner critic. And the reason I say let's not do that anymore and I and I feel really good about helping people let go of being motivated that way is for a few reasons. The first one is that if you are being motivated in your life by self doubt and self criticism, you essentially are always having fight or flight physiology in your body. You have stress hormones going through your body like it is not a relaxed way to work. If you're working out of the sense of I'm going to totally mess this up if I don't double check it or I I really am not measuring up so I have to work extra hard. The physiology of that is like a stress respons response. And if you are chronically working in that way, you have all the negative health impacts that any other chronic stress situation would give you. And those are significant, right? We know those are really significant in terms of real health issues. Number two, it is not fun. It is not fun to work that way and we deserve to have pleasurable, sustainable ways of working. And then the third thing I would say is when you're being motivated from your inner critic, you can be a great worker bee. You're never going to be a game changer. So the inner critic will help you proofread that thing for the ninth time. Do the extra background research, right? Make sure you've done all your due diligence on everything that could possibly happen and everyone in the room. It'll help you with those kinds of things. It will not help you share your unique point of view, influence or propose something to someone in leadership. Send the DM to the person you want to pitch. That has to come from a different place. And so even if we've succeeded to a certain point in our careers and I work with a lot of women like this, they're like, oh, but double checking and crossing all the eyes and running on the fe fear fuels. And the inner critic fuel like that helped me get the first two promotions. But now I need a different skill set. I need, you know, having a strong point of view, being able to make polarizing decisions that not everyone's going to like. You know, working the relationships and politics of a situation. And our inner critic doesn't really help us get there with any of that.

Tara Moore (23:48)

I just love the Idea that it's not fun. I mean, I think we can all think about people who are maybe at the top of their game or doing really well, but they don't seem very happy about it.

Mary (24:00)

Yeah.

Tara Moore (24:00)

And it's like, what's the point of running so hard if you don't enjoy where you're going, what you're doing, or. Or the place you're at?

Mary (24:08)

A hundred percent. Yeah.

Tara Moore (24:09)

That's a really tough thing, as I know, because I am. I mean, my inner critic is loud. Loud. It's a tough thing to undo. It's a really tough thing to undo.

Mary (24:20)

It is. It is. And I think it's. It's a combination of turning down the inner critic's voice and turning up other things. So you could start with like, just what are those inner critic thoughts? Can I pause when I hear them? You know, if it's, this episode is going to be a disaster or this blog post is. You know, my blog writing talent has whatever it is. Oh, I'm hearing my inner critic right now. I can remember that's not the voice of truth. Okay. Maybe I'm going to imagine sending that voice out of the room. Or maybe I have a playful character I've created that symbolizes my inner critic. And I'm going to go, oh, that's just anxiety from the movie inside out talking to me. Or I'm going to personify it so I can do those things to turn down the critic's voice. But then I would also say, we're so helped by turning up other parts of ourselves. So then it's like, why am I doing this? Who am I trying to help? Let me think about more about them right now. What are the values that I hold dear that are leading me here that can really propel me forward? And that's like turning up the volume on the good stuff. So we're being motivated from those more resonant, sustainable sources of motivation.

Tara Moore (25:39)

I think that is such amazing advice. I get to volunteer in a high school program. I teach fundamentals of business as a volunteer. And I High schoolers, it's my favorite thing ever. But I was on a panel maybe last year, a couple years ago, and they asked about, like, criticism online. And, you know, if you live online at all, you are. People are going to criticize you. And I. I shared an email that I got and it some. It was a beautiful email. The top of it was, I love everything you do, blah, blah, blah. And then there were two paragraphs about how much they hated the blazer. I was wearing in a photo on my website. And they would never buy anything from me because they hated it so much. And if I couldn't dress myself, I mean, it was, it was brutal. It was brutal. And I, you know, that came in. But a few days later, another email came in. It was from a woman who found my show when she was waiting to hear if she was going to lose her foot to cancer. And she said, I just needed something funny. I needed something light. And she said, you went to every chemo appointment with me. I would. And when I have my moments, I have to go, okay, we do this for Lorna. We do this for Lorna, right? We're not doing this. I don't even remember the blazer lady's name. I didn't like that. Will not hold space in my head. But you have to keep going for the Lornas because if you let the blazer lady win, you'll never, ever, ever.

Mary (27:05)

Reach the Lorna's a hundred percent.

Tara Moore (27:08)

Even when it's scary, even when you know that putting things out, people are going to criticize, there will always be somebody who will criticize. And maybe that is just partly experience. I would imagine that getting over fear. Every time you do something and it doesn't end in a disaster, I always think you have a little bit. You have another tool in your toolbox, right? You have a little bit more evidence that not everything is going to fall apart all the time.

Mary (27:33)

You have data point. And interestingly though, sometimes when fear takes over, we have to really proactively go find those data points. It's not like we naturally remember them, right? In that moment we have to say, wait, how did this work out the past 20 times? Or have a friend say that. And sometimes that can help and sometimes not. I mean, it's fun getting to see sort of the physiology of fear. Fun is probably the wrong word. It's kind of fascinating with my kids because it's so stark. It's like it doesn't matter if, if we've done this drive 10 times and you know, my child who's afraid of getting sick in the car has not gotten sick on the 11th time. The fear is as intense. And me saying it didn't happen the past 10 times just doesn't help when we get hijacked by fear in that way. But I want to go back to the criticism because I think that's such an important topic. Women are so often socialized to and this happens from girlhood is we feel like we're supposed to get everybody to like us if they don't, we did something wrong or there's a problem that we need to fix. And then I feel like unfortunately school reinforces that. Like, nobody said to me when I was in school, some teachers are going to like your style of writing English papers and some aren't, you know, some are gravitate to the what they said, like get A's in every class. Like, basically like keep being a chameleon, Hit every subject and every teacher in a way that you get the gold star from them. So then when we go into our adult lives or our careers, it's like, well, I got to get everybody in the volunteer organization I'm in. They need to like me or everybody in this organization or my industry needs to be my biggest fan. And yet what I saw when I went out into the work world is the women who were doing really significant work basically had like a split reaction to them where they had strong fans and strong critics, more so even than men. And that's because I think we, we sort of heap a lot of unfair and more vehement criticism on women. So that mind shift of like, I don't actually need to win everyone over and that's not my goal. It's like, wait, what is my goal again? Oh, my goal has to do with the Lorna's. My goal has to do with doing work that gives me joy and criticism is going to come my way. And I'll even recommend to women like pick a favorite author, go on Amazon, read some 5 star reviews of them, read some 1 star reviews, read some 5 star reviews, read some 1 star reviews, toggle back and forth and it is so fascinating to be reading about a book you love and read a review where someone's like, it's the characters are so amazing and then you go read a review. The characters are so unrealistic and ridiculous. It helps us sort of reprogram around that, that idea.

Tara Moore (30:31)

So I want to talk about the girlhood a little bit and where playing small starts because like I, I'm a mom of daughters. My girls are 13 and 16 and I always think anything I can do to not give them issues, like that's my job, that's why I was put on this earth is to raise two daughters as issue free as possible. And I don't know that you can. I don't know that you can. But where does playing small start?

Mary (31:00)

Yeah, well, I always think it's like we're trying to raise them for as few issues as we can and we're Going to have our, you know, our humility and our repair skills really intact. So that when they come back around and say, and here's what. Here's what really was hard, we go, I hear you, honey. Instead of saying, no, it wasn't.

Tara Moore (31:18)

That didn't happen.

Mary (31:19)

Were you even there? I was doing great with that. So this is a question that, you know, comes up a lot. And I, of course, I get to speak to moms a lot, but I also sometimes get to work, work with girls, which is really a joy in schools and things like that. So this may sound like good news or bad news, depending on how you're feeling about it. But of course, as with all things parenting, the biggest thing is what we are being and modeling ourselves. So we don't get to switch the focus to our girls just yet. Right. Just to talk for a minute about. Right. Like, what are they seeing? Are they seeing someone who's run by their inner critic, who believes that their inner critic is the voice of truth? Have they ever seen mom go, can you believe I was. I was just feeling so nervous about that, and I was feeling like I couldn't do it. And you know how that happens. You know how when we're doing a big stretch thing, that inner critic voice comes up and, gosh, it's so not true, but it can so feel true. And so here's what I had to do in that moment. I had to kind of send my inner critic out of the room, or I had to remind myself who were the people I was doing this for and connecting that. So we want to model all of that. And then often the mistake that moms make is we end up arguing with our daughter's inner critics, like, point by point. So daughter will say, I'm ugly. No, honey, you're so beautiful. Oh, I'm gonna fail at this math test. No, you're gonna do great. And of course, that is so well intentioned. Yeah, of course. And it's the most intuitive, in a way, thing to do, because we know, right. It's not true. So we're arguing for what we know to be true. The thing is, have you noticed? Right. Most of us has noticed. It does not make that voice go away for them.

Tara Moore (33:14)

No. I mean, and it's like when you're in your own inner critic moment, nothing anybody can say, no matter how rational.

Mary (33:21)

Yeah.

Tara Moore (33:22)

Is going.

Jennifer Mackey (33:22)

Oh, yeah, you're right.

Tara Moore (33:24)

No, I am fantastic at everything. Good point. No, I mean, you're kind of shut down.

Mary (33:28)

Right. And it can sometimes even add stress. Like. Like like, oh, my mom is the only one. She thinks everything I do is fine. She doesn't understand the reality out there where teachers are giving me harsh feedback or I really might not get the job, you know, Or. Or it can kind of make us feel more like imposters. Right? Almost. So instead of battling point by point with the inner critic, we want to go sort of up a level and talk about this reality of the inner critic so that they're getting a little bit of an inner critic. Education 101. Like, oh, it sounds like that voice of self doubt is getting really loud. Yeah, that's what happens when we're in stretches. We all have that inner critic voice. Here's some crazy things that you know. You know, Aunt sue, she seems so confident, but here's some of the things her inner critic says when she's really feeling, you know, and talk about it, normalize it. That voice is just so not the voice of truth. And, okay, what's more important to you in this situation than how you're feeling about yourself? Do you think this would be really fun? Do you think this would be a great stretch? Like, do you think this would be joyful? Do you think this would be a cool adventure? So kind of that helping them connect to something larger. But most of all, it's really just like, we got to come out of the argument with the inner critic and into a conversation about the inner critic so that they can start to develop some of those skills themselves.

Tara Moore (35:01)

Okay, that right there is absolutely genius, because I'm just thinking about the moments where I'm just in some kind of spiral, and my husband's like, no, you're. You're pretty and talented and, you know, everything. And then I want to argue, and I feel like I have to convince him that my inner critic is right, that my feelings are right. And now that you're saying that, I'm thinking about situations with my daughters where I have argued with the inner critic and they go harder. They go harder on their inner critic. Like, they have to defend her then.

Mary (35:33)

Yes. Yeah. So it's kind of like instead we're just naming what's happening in the situation from more of a little bit further back. Like, oh, wow, sounds like self doubt is coming up big. Like, this must be a situation that feels a little uncertain and scary. Like, gosh, that sucks when that voice really comes up so strongly. And then you could even share a story. Like, here, you know, the other day, can you believe I was, you know, about to record a podcast and my inner critic Was chattering away at this. Gosh, sometimes I just have to not listen to it, you know, that kind of thing.

Tara Moore (36:09)

I always have like these moments that if people walk away with nothing else, that's. That's it for me. Right there.

Jennifer Mackey (36:15)

Right there.

Mary (36:16)

I'm so glad.

Tara Moore (36:18)

What else causes us to play small? So we've talked a little bit about fear, which seems to be a driver of all of it.

Mary (36:24)

Yeah.

Tara Moore (36:24)

And I would imagine that there are messages that we have gotten. I do think parenting today looks very different than it did probably when you and I were being parented. My first employee that I had, she was one of those people who joined. It was. It was not a great story. This is not a success story at all. It's a. It's a business disaster story, which everyone needs to. But yeah, she was one of those people who on the first day of the job was going to tell you how you can run your company better. It's always my favorite. Always my favorite.

Mary (36:53)

Right? Yeah.

Tara Moore (36:54)

And I remember saying to my sister, and I meant this as an insult. Someone told her she was important growing up. Oh my God.

Mary (37:07)

So good. Yeah.

Tara Moore (37:09)

Like, that was like the meanest thing I could think to say, but it was like somebody really told her her ideas were important growing up. And then I think how much I try and make my girls feel like their ideas are important.

Mary (37:20)

Right.

Tara Moore (37:21)

But there is sort of a generational parenting thing where that was not a priority for our parents. That was, if you asked my mom, of the hundred things she had to worry about on any given day, making Jennifer feel like her ideas were important probably was not on that list.

Mary (37:38)

Right. Yeah. There's a lot to unpack in there. So there is definitely this generation gap. I hear a lot of us, you know, talking about it. And it's a big workplace issue, for sure. Although interestingly, I would say I also heard women 20 years older than me talking about it, you know, when I was in that seat. Because for them, it wasn't quite so much the exact same issue you're talking about. But I think for. For women who were more part of that career wave of like, they came into very male dominated professions in maybe the 60s or 70s, they had to go through so much way of their femininity, of their womanhood. They didn't get to have work, family, balance. They almost had to go through like a really tough hazing. And then for my generation to come in and say, you know, I expect to get to be a little more of a woman at work. And I. And I'm not expecting to slog so hard. They were like, what? You know, and now that's even more pronounced with the next generation. Plus, we have. They just have a whole new set of expectations around sort of impact and pacing of career advancement and. And all of that. But I would say. And this is often kind of like a oosh one for people. You know, one of the things we talk about in the playing big book and in courses is this idea that what we don't allow in ourselves, we will never allow in another woman.

Tara Moore (39:03)

Can you talk more about that?

Mary (39:05)

Yeah. So if we don't give ourselves permission to feel important on day one, if we wouldn't let ourselves say that, if we wouldn't let ourselves, you know, take that much time off or look that glamorous in our lives or be as. As brash or like, if we are internally policing ourselves around that, we're going to be very triggered when we experience that in another woman. Because something inside of us is like, no, we don't do that.

Tara Moore (39:37)

How dare she?

Mary (39:38)

Yeah.

Tara Moore (39:38)

Yeah, how dare she?

Mary (39:39)

We don't get to do that. I don't like to. I don't want to see somebody else doing that. And it. There's a form of jealousy that's happening in there right when we. Right. Like, I. I wish I felt that entitled. That would have been nice. Yeah. So when we feel that in the workplace or with a younger person in our lives, you know, or not younger, it can happen in any direction, really. It's good to say, what am I not allowing in myself? You know, what is getting. What got a little stamped out in me that this person is kind of reflecting back to me, bringing up. And can I soften around that? Can I grieve that? Nobody made me feel that important there. You kind of can't step over the grief part.

Tara Moore (40:21)

Yeah.

Mary (40:21)

And if I can grieve that and go, yeah, that might have been better if it was a little different. Not saying the way kids are being raised now is perfect, but that might have been better if I could have been allowed to feel important. And then what values do I really want to recenter in and how I'm dealing with this person.

Tara Moore (40:40)

That is very, very good advice. I want to talk a little bit about what we can do to start playing bigger. Even if you're sitting here and you've got your inner critic turned up to level 10 decibels, what can we do? And I want to talk about something in the book, the language that we use.

Mary (40:59)

Yeah.

Tara Moore (41:00)

As I was preparing for this interview and I picked up the book and I just kind of. I had a little bookmark on one section and it was the page talking about the language patterns we use that keep us small.

Mary (41:12)

Yeah.

Tara Moore (41:13)

Can you talk about some of those?

Mary (41:14)

Yeah, and this is a great one. Just in terms of like practicality and immediacy of getting started. Yeah. So we tend to use these diminishing speech habits, like saying, I just, I just have a thought, I just have a question. I actually, I actually disagree. Instead of I'd like to ask a question, or I have a different perspective, I want to share on that. We also say things like, did that make sense? After we shared something, kind of questioning, was I coherent at all? Or we're telling someone something really important. Maybe we're pitching our business or we're raising an important conversation and we say, I just, I want to just take a little bit of your time to tell you about my business. Right. This kind of diminishing. And linguists actually have a term for all of these words and phrases. They're called hedges. It's like a way of hedging what we're saying, making it a little more tentative. And in all different societies and all different contexts around the world, the people who use hedges are the low power, low status people in the society. Ooh, okay, right. So when you do it, you're saying, yep, I'm identifying with being low power and low status because of course, what that's really about is like as a low power, low status person, what is the sneaky way, the sneaky, unoffensive way I can get my point across or get my question out. I have to really tone it down now. Women are kind of in this transitional moment. It's like we've been socialized or we've learned to talk like that. We may feel like we need to talk like that to get our point across or to be still seen as nice, but we often are over correcting in that direction. We may not need to do it as much as we do. We may have just developed those habits. And so then we're just coming across as a lot less powerful than we could. I'll add one more piece because I, you know, and I can hear what often what people are thinking when we, when they start contemplating. This is like, but I gotta sound nice. And it is absolutely true that we know this from a lot of research. If women come in and they are all assertiveness and no, nice, nice people will think they are competent but not likable. Okay. And this is what is called the double bind in research. And it is unfortunately very real that women are often seen as competent or likable, but not both. Right. So she, yeah, Devil Wears Prada. Right. The Meryl Streep character, the big boss. She's allowed to be highly competent, but then she's the ice queen.

Tara Moore (44:09)

Okay.

Mary (44:09)

Or you know, sweet little old grandma. She's so lovely. But we're not putting her, you know, in charge of a Fortune 500 company because she can be one or the other likable or competent. This is part of like the feminine stereotypes we live with. And we get caught in men, we don't have the same problem. Oh, he's a great guy and he's going to be a great president. Right?

Tara Moore (44:33)

Yeah.

Mary (44:34)

So we, of course, we sense that every cell of our body knows, oh, I'm allowed to show my competence to a certain point, but I gotta say the pleases and the just and the actuallys and the, oh, what do you think of that? So that I still am seen as likable. And the most practical solution I think we can come up with to all of that is that, yeah, we do need to show that we're warm and likable as women. One, just because it's a nice human thing to do, but B, because we, we're held to a higher standard to show that. But we want to do that in positive ways, not self diminishing ways. So let me show you that I'm likable and relational because I start a meeting by saying, how are you? And I'm so happy to see you again and how was your weekend? And I'm excited for the things we're going to talk about today. That's how I'm going to show warmth and likability. Not by saying, I actually, I actually have a question or I don't know, does anyone else think that makes sense? Not by all that self diminishment.

Tara Moore (45:35)

Okay, I wanted to pull that one out because like you said, I think it's such an easy practical application of something. You don't have to sit and reflect, you don't have to do anything else. Except look at the email that you're writing.

Mary (45:49)

Yes.

Tara Moore (45:50)

And take those words out. Just take them out. You often don't even have to change the sentence. You could just take them out. They don't mean anything. And I did that over the weekend and I thought, oh, that's a better email. Oh, that got my point across. And I wasn't rude, I was not rude about anything, but I didn't Tone it down for the sake of not offending someone else or being seen as nice or. I don't want to be a problem. No, I was actually having a challenge and, you know, it needed to be addressed. And the response back was, I think, probably better because I was clearer. There was no cloudiness about what I was asking for or what the issue was. It was just better from both ways.

Mary (46:37)

That's so great.

Tara Moore (46:39)

I think if our listeners can just challenge themselves. Every serious text you write or every email you send, just look for those little words. Just look for the.

Jennifer Mackey (46:46)

Just the.

Tara Moore (46:47)

Actually, can I have a minute? Is this a dumb idea? Just spitball me.

Mary (46:53)

I hate to bother you.

Tara Moore (46:54)

I hate to bother you, but I'm.

Mary (46:56)

No expert in this, but, you know. Yes, I think. And I'm so glad you mentioned email because that's such a great way to start, because email, like, slows down our communication habits. We actually have a minute to pause and look at the email, whereas when we're talking, things come out automatically. So email is a great place to start relearning. And I've heard that from so many people about. Not only did I feel better once I edited this email, but, you know, like, I remember one, one young woman saying, finally, people in my company are responding to my emails. Like, I used to never get a response, and now people are writing back and they're writing that quickly. So, yeah, it absolutely changes.

Tara Moore (47:35)

Well, yeah, because it was probably full of, if you have a minute, I don't want to bother you. And people are like, I don't have a minute. This is bothering me. You know, you're like, look, I just need this one thing.

Mary (47:46)

Time to read past all your qualifiers to figure out what's in this email.

Tara Moore (47:50)

Yeah, email's easy, too, because you just. You get to stop and pause. You don't have to be as in the moment as when you're speaking and hope the right words come to you. You.

Jennifer Mackey (48:00)

You.

Tara Moore (48:01)

You have a minute. You have. You can pause a little bit.

Mary (48:03)

Exactly.

Tara Moore (48:04)

So if that's kind of a baby step one to playing there, what's a good baby step two?

Mary (48:10)

Yes. Well, I really like these very practical things you can do with your inner mentor. So once you have a sense of your inner mentor, whether you were just thinking of her today or doing the meditation, which I do encourage people to do, because sometimes what you imagine with, like, your sort of everyday conscious thinking is not as rich and interesting as what you get when you do the visualization. But when you have a sense of your inner mentor, Then I would look at your calendar and say, what is a one hour period? I could spend this week as she would spend it. Ooh, okay, what does she like to do on a Sunday? Or what does she eat for breakfast? Let me eat that breakfast this week. What does she look like? Can I buy or borrow or find in my closet? You know, one thing that's really her. Maybe there's one purchase you made that was like when you saw that thing and, oh, that's so me. Right. So, like, get that out or can you move in that direction? For a lot of people, dress is actually one of the ways they do grow into that inner mentor self. And it can feel really tangible and powerful and doable or, you know, let me write this email as she would write it. So all of those are other really great baby steps to begin. And then I would also say, you're not going to make your inner critic go away. That's not the goal. The goal is to have a wiser relationship with it. And that's a long term practice. But you could start by just saying, you know, today I'm going to make an effort to at least once notice when I'm hearing from my inner critic and just not take it as the voice of truth. Just say, oh, I'm. I'm listening to my inner critic right now. What's the deeper part of me? What's the truer part of me actually saying or wanting to do here?

Tara Moore (49:58)

Do you find a lot of women come into either working with you or reading the book or hoping that the goal is to get rid of the inner critic completely? And then it feels like failure when.

Mary (50:10)

The inner critic is still there, 100% in fact. And people will often misunderstand my work and say it's about confidence. And you could say, I get it in some deep sense. Maybe it's a certain kind of confidence that comes from tuning into our truer self. But I think feeling confident in the way we usually talk about it, it's still about assessing yourself. It's like, I feel good about me. I, you know, I think I'm good enough and I'm this and I'm great and I'm friendly. And to me, that always feels a little bit like a convincing myself project.

Tara Moore (50:50)

Yeah.

Mary (50:52)

And I don't know that we're meant to be that conscious about our story, about ourselves. I would rather live my life thinking about the experiences I want to feel from the inside out and the values I want to live out. And I don't have to stop along the way and decide anything about good enough or not. Like, I really have gotten a little bit more radical over my years and now I just say we don't need self assessment thoughts, positive or negative, we don't need them.

Tara Moore (51:28)

That's a radically different idea. It is radically different. I was at a conference a couple years ago and one of the exercises was dealing with your inner critic, or your inner bully, I think they called it. And it was a, it was a meditation thing. It was a business conference, but. And people were crying and you were writing letters to your. Your inner bully, whatever it was. And over lunch, people were talking about how much it impacted them, and they were all saying, my inner critic is gone, My inner bully is gone. It's gone. And they asked me, is yours gone? And I was like, well, I don't, I don't know. I won't really know until I go home and I try to do the things that this inner critic is holding me back from doing. I won't know. And it turns out, no, it wasn't gone. Yeah, it was not gone. And it made me feel like more of a failure because it seemed like hundreds of people in this room were just having this like, transformative religious experience where they have just let go of everybody who was ever mean to them or whatever, and now they have no roadblocks. And I was like, I just, it doesn't ring true to me. Like, it just doesn't ring true.

Mary (52:40)

That that's how. Gosh, I would love to hear the follow up because I bet a lot of them are feeling like a failure to having now had that bully come back or show up again. What I see much more commonly is that when we're on the edge of our comfort zone, when we're stretching into some kind of playing bigger or doing something that feels uncertain, like there's risk of failure, all of that stuff, the inner critic will come up. And there's good research to support this. For example, you know, there's a study showing that for US women in corporate America, about 45% of entry level women will say they feel confident in their jobs. Then they look at executive level women. So women who are much further along, many more accomplishments, they've risen through the ranks in a competitive corporate situation. And the number is not very different. About 55% say they feel confident. So I'm like, you have a 1 in 10 chance of your confidence increasing with a lot of accomplishments. And instead, what I hear more and more from women is like, the things they feel confident about might change. You know, maybe early in their lives they didn't feel too confident, you know, negotiating or something, and that changes. But now maybe they're on the new frontier of they're on a nonprofit board in their community and now they're feeling not good enough for that. Right. Or they have a new challenge in their business and that's raising the inner critter. So it's more like the inner critic can shapeshift in what it's saying or it can come back with its greatest hits. But it is structural. It comes when we're on the edge of a comfort zone. It's our safety instinct saying, just go back into your comfort zone. It's that part of us. And so confidence is not a reasonable goal. The goal is to have a really wise, effective response to self doubt.

Tara Moore (54:47)

That is a complete paradigm shift. Rather than just push it down, get rid of it, make it go away, just be confident, just be bold. I actually like hearing the idea of like, yeah, that may not be a reasonable goal. This thing that everyone is striving for may not actually be achievable. Yeah. And if it's not, you can, you can take the pressure off of ever trying to achieve it.

Mary (55:12)

Yeah. I always say, you know, the bad news is confidence probably isn't coming. The good news is you do not need it to do any of the things you thought you did.

Tara Moore (55:22)

That is so good.

Mary (55:24)

Like I, and I'll tell people, I said, don't picture yourself as a confident rock star doing, you know, whatever that thing is, starting the business, like, you know, hiring the 10th and plate, whatever you're dreaming of putting up the art show. Do not picture yourself as a confident rock star. Picture yourself doing that as a racked with self doubt rock star. Because that is probably what it'll feel like. It's like fear all the way through. But I'm doing it. I'm recognizing, of course, why that fear is there. And there's one thing I actually want to add about that because you've asked about it a couple times and I just didn't get there yet. When we're talking about why are we playing small and where does it come come from? I think we've talked about sort of messages that girls and women get. But I also want to say, just for all human beings, there is a kind of playing small that happens simply because it is very scary and vulnerable to really share our real gifts and voices in the world.

Tara Moore (56:29)

Yes, it is.

Mary (56:30)

Right. So no matter who you are, no matter what your gender is, there's A lot of momentum. And we could say, you know, sometimes men and our sons, they're playing small in a different way. Like, they are hardening up. They're forced into a different kind of conformity. They are not feeling free to express maybe their emotions or creativity or things that fall out of our cultural, you know, messages about boys and masculinity. They may not be feeling free to pursue their true path if it's. It's not deemed the best provider one. Right. That's going to create male status for them. So all of that is really real. And there's just a human journey of, like, what are my real callings? What are the real values I want to honor? And then the tremendous courage it ends up taking to live those out.

Tara Moore (57:24)

I could listen to you talk about this all day, but I want to respect your time. However, this is a clothing and style podcast, so I have to ask. Ask about where playing big and playing small intersects with style and clothing and how we can use clothes to play bigger and how we use them to play small.

Mary (57:44)

Yeah. So good. Well, I want to hear you talk about that because I. I could share some initial ideas, but I think I'm very curious how you see that Fusion.

Tara Moore (57:57)

You know, I was on a podcast years ago, and it was a business podcast. I was talking about dressing for your brand, right? If your brand is bold and brash and in your face, don't walk into the networking thing in a heather gray sweater, like, dress your brand. And she told me after we'd wrapped, we were just chatting and she said, oh, no, no, I don't ever want to stand out. I don't ever want to stand out. I dress to kind of fly below the radar. And I just remember thinking it takes a lot for me to leave my house at night. Night, right? Like to go to that networking event to do that thing. If I'm gonna go, you're gonna know I'm there, right? To me, it doesn't make sense to do that. But it was a way and consciously of kind of helping her fly below the radar. And, you know, I. Before we started today, I was talking about a client I had who didn't go to her friend's wedding because she didn't have a dress. She had nothing to wear. And I remember a client I had when leather leggings were just, just kind of emerging and they were really out there. Like, you know, 56 year old women were not wearing them. She found a pair of leather leggings she loved at Nordstrom, and I was like, let's try them on. And everything was, what would people say? What would people think? I can't show up to the bus stop in those. What would people think? You know, and for me, I wear things because I just love them. Yeah, I love them. I get joy from clothing. I think they express my personality. So, you know, my questions are always, well, what people? And who cares?

Mary (59:36)

Right?

Tara Moore (59:36)

Who cares? But it's easy for me to say. Because it's easy for me to say and easy for me to do. But I know that that's not. Not as easy for a lot of women. But I, I do think that clothing can also be armor in a way. And, and my daughter, when we first moved here six years ago, she was starting a new school in fifth grade and she said, I just want to dress really well. I want to feel good about myself. I want to dress really well. And, you know, we don't have a house where everyone has to wear labels and be dressed to the nines all the time. Not at all. But I felt like even at 10, 11, she kind of understood that the way you put yourself together can kind of get you through even if you're not, if you're not feeling confident enough to walk into that brand new classroom of people having something that makes you feel good can, can be a little bit of a crutch.

Mary (60:33)

Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting and, you know, interesting that she sort of sensed that it was a situation where she might need some armor. Right. Like we, you know, there's a reason we, we put on those softer pajama things when we feel sort of most. Yeah. In the most safe. Yeah. You know, I mean, we could look at so many different parts of the. But like, just even. Yes. What's the inner critic voice you feel around clothes and your physical style and appearance? Which, by the way, you know, in my studies research with my community, body and appearance is one of the biggest things the inner critic is talking about. And sadly, it. It, you know, you. My hope would have been that that is fading as women age and they're sort of coming into their own. It's just as strong, if not stronger. And that makes, you know, I just feel like, gosh, for us in our primes and, you know, where we have so much life experience and accomplishments to be savoring and family connection, you know, like to still be going there. So just bringing the inner critic to all of that conversation around clothes and body is huge. What would my inner mentor wear? What does she like? And then what you're talking about which is really like with the client with leggings. You're talking about switching from the story where I'm watching myself from the outside to going back inside myself. How does this feel to wear, to buy, to like. I'm not looking at myself from 50ft away and thinking, what. What are other people looking at me and saying, you know, what's the story about me? But just is my felt experience of wearing this and being in this feel right and feel good. There's so much opportunity for individual expression. Also values, you know, are my values to buy reused things or things that last a long time. Right. All of that. And I. What I've been noticing in myself lately that I find really interesting is, is when I am going somewhere where I don't feel like I'll be loved or warmly embraced, that's when I feel like I have nothing to wear. And that's when I feel like nothing looks good.

Tara Moore (62:48)

Ooh.

Mary (62:49)

And when I'm going to, like, gather with friends or go to a community I love or do something arts that I'm really excited about, I have many, many options in my closet, and I put things together in an interesting way, and I feel like I look great. So I almost use it like a reverse barometer. It's like, if I am frenetic and upset over clothes, is that something I even should be going to in the first place? Because I noticed that I only feel that way when it's like, you know, I'm trying to conform to something. I'm trying to fit in someone else's rules. I feel like I'm being judged by those people, but I'm ending up there anyway. You know, that kind of stuff.

Tara Moore (63:28)

That is really interesting. I hadn't really thought about that, but I was just sort of, as you were talking, thinking about this past weekend where I was really stressed about what to wear. Really stressed about what to wear. It was something I had to go to, but. But, yeah, that's kind of an interest. It's. I think sometimes we think of it one way, but like you said, the reverse barometer. That's really an interesting way to. To check in on how we're feeling about the actual event, not. Not what we're wearing.

Mary (63:57)

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Tara Moore (63:59)

Ladies, take that one to heart as well. All right, so a question I like to ask all of my guests. Our listeners are busy, busy women, and they will listen to this and vow to remember every single word of it. And they won't, because we are human. If they can take one thing away, one Single thing from this conversation to put in their heart, put in their pocket, and carry with them. What would you like it to be?

Mary (64:24)

Playing big is being more loyal to your dreams than to your fears. And therefore that playing big is not the accomplishment of the dreams. It's actually when you shift your loyalty in your heart, in your stance, in your life to like, I may not know how I'm gonna achieve those dreams, but okay, honey, I am gonna be on your side and trying to figure that out and letting that simmer and see where that takes you.

Tara Moore (64:52)

That is so good. So, so good. Tara, thank you for being on the show today. Where can we find you? Where can we buy your book? Everyone needs a copy.

Mary (65:01)

Thank you. What a great conversation. I just have enjoyed your spirit so much and your storytelling. You are such a great storyteller too.

Tara Moore (65:09)

Thank you.

Mary (65:11)

So you can find. My website is taramore.com t a r-a m o h r dot com. The playing big book is available pretty much wherever you like to get books. And there's lots more free resources and courses and writings on the website, too.

Tara Moore (65:31)

Love it, ladies. Normally I am a big fan of the library because, you know, free books. This is a book that you want to buy because you're going to want to write in it. You're going to to earmark pages, you're going to put your coffee down on it for years to come. This is one you have to have. Every woman needs this in their bookshelf, so go get it. And again, Tara, just thank you. I'm so excited to be able to share this conversation with everyone today.

Mary (65:55)

Thank you so much, y'all.

Jennifer Mackey (65:58)

I am so glad that I played big and just asked Tara to be on the show. This is proof that if I can go after what I want, even when it's scary, you can, too. I want to thank Tara and her team for their time, kindness, and generosity. I hope you were as inspired by her as I was. Before we go, I've got two quick things for you in the show notes. First, the 2024 style survey is open for the next couple of weeks. I want to hear your thoughts on all things style related, from how often you shop and how much you spend to how you really feel about your wardrobe and when the last time you got a bra fitting was was. I'm going to share the results of the survey with you in our last episode of the year. So head over to the show notes, click the link, take the survey. It's quick, it's fun. Just for completing it, you'll be entered to win a hundred dollar gift card to the store of your choice. And there are other opportunities to win gift cards as well. This is going to be a fun one. I can't wait to see your answers. Also, we have a brand new free guide for you called the ten Piece Style Solutions. In it I am showing you how to mix and match 10 wardrobe basics to create over 30 stylish outfits. If you've ever wondered where to start when creating a capsule wardrobe, this is it. I'm showing you the pieces, the outfits and of course there's a link database in case you are missing any of these 10 pieces. If you want more versatility in your wardrobe without adding a ton of stuff, you need to check this out. Out links for both the survey and the guide are in the show notes and of course you can find the links to connect with Tara and get her book. I cannot say enough good things about it. Give it to your sister. Give it to your friend, your daughter. Every woman deserves to play big and.

Tara Moore (67:43)

Get the life she dreams of.

Jennifer Mackey (67:45)

Finally, before we wrap up, I want to challenge you to find a way to play a little bigger this week. Wear the outfit that you've been wanting to try. Ask that new friend out for coffee. Speak up in the meeting before someone says exactly what you were going to say and gets the credit for it. That's the worst feeling, right? I don't care what you do, just do something. Every single week, tens of thousands of women listen to this show. Can you imagine what would happen if we all played a little bit bigger? Amazing things. I bet.

Tara Moore (68:16)

So let's go get it.

Jennifer Mackey (68:17)

All right, I will see you next time. Until then, remember that your everyday matters. So get dressed for it it. And that's a wrap. Thank you for listening today. If you're loving the Everyday Style School podcast, I'd like to invite you to become a member of the Style Circle. It's our monthly all access membership that gives you everything we create to make style easy so you can save time and money, have easier mornings and more confidence all day long. You get our seasonal capsule wardrobe guides, all of the master classes we offer, and our exclusive members only podcast the Everyday Style School.

Mary (68:55)

Extra credit.

Jennifer Mackey (68:57)

Plus you're invited to the Facebook community where you can get even more style support and inspiration. I would love to get to know you and support your style journey. It's just $19 a month less than the cost of a clearance shirt you're never going to wear. Come join me and make your everyday style easier.

Mary (69:14)

Sa.