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- [00:02]
Dave Gerhard
This episode is brought to you by Novatic. B2B websites are filled with too much story, too much narrative these days. We've gone the other direction. You visit a website and you have no idea what the product does and how it works. Just show me the product, right? You ever feel that this is why Novatic has become such a popular product among B2B marketers? They help you build interactive demos so you can give buyers a real look at the product before they ever talk to your sales team. And guess what they this approach works. They found that companies using interactive demos with Novatic have seen up to a 25% lift in website conversion rates and a 10 to 20% increase in inbound leads. They just released their 2025 State of the Interactive Product Demo Report and it proves just how Much more control B2B buyers want over the buying process. Today, buyers have more access to information than ever and companies are finally catching up by making their product front and center on the website. Their report breaks down the top performing dem ungated demos drive higher engagement and some of the best use cases and strategies for making them work. So if you want to learn more about using product demos on your site, go check it out. It's Novatic State of the Interactive Product Demo Report. Right now it's up on their website, which is N a V A T T I c dot com. That's nevatic dot com. Go check it out and get smarter about interactive product demos. You're listening to B2B Marketing with me, Dave Gerhard.
- [01:32]
Robert Mardav
1, 2, 3, 4. Exit.
- [01:37]
Manav
1, 2, 3, 4.
- [01:42]
Robert Mardav
Welcome everybody. Thank you for sticking around. We have two incredible guests. We are going to be discussing product tours, something that I'm really excited about. Matt says Polo Dan. Thanks, Matt. I actually put on my college shirt today. Dave's been leading by example and he's been dressing up a little bit. So I decided that I would follow his lead and keep that bar high and dress for the job you want, right? That's what they say. So that's what I'm going to do. All right, let's get our guests on. Or our experts, I should say, on stage today. Robert Mardav.
- [02:08]
Manav
What's up everybody?
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Robert Mardav
Yeah, hey, welcome. Thanks for being here. Listening shows. Robert, you go first.
- [02:15]
Manav
Yeah. Rob Kaminsky here, part of Fletch pmm. You may have seen me and my co founder Anthony Pieri blowing up your LinkedIn feed. Hopefully. We at Fletch focus specifically on positioning and homepage messaging, effectively helping B2B. Usually SaaS startups, better explain their Product to their ideal customer. Excited to be here.
- [02:34]
Robert Mardav
Awesome. And Manav, thanks for joining. You're going to present a little bit, but Manav, tell us a little bit about you and your background.
- [02:40]
Madhav
Yeah, absolutely. Hey, everybody. I lead all marketing at Storyline, which is an interactive demo tool. You might have heard Nishree and Dave's intro. We also did the Storyline Shark, the Drive event. Right? Yeah. And Storyline, like I said, it's an interact demo tool used by some of the biggest companies in the world. You've heard of them? Gong Shari Outreach, you know, you know, some of the initial names. But yeah, I'm excited to be here. I love product pages, but explain the.
- [03:03]
Robert Mardav
Background because it looks familiar to probably a lot of us.
- [03:05]
Madhav
Yeah, this is the Office background. Big fans of the Office. I just love it. I saw it on somebody's Zoom and I was like, this is cool. Let me just use that forever.
- [03:13]
Robert Mardav
And I love that we all showed up on our collared shirts today, too, so looking very professional. That's awesome. So before we get into the roast, we have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 websites to get to. Before we get into that, Manav is going to do a little walkthrough of product pages, how to build them, best practices, and he's even going to share a couple examples. So, Manal, let me kick it back over to you and let's get into it.
- [03:34]
Madhav
Yeah. So I've been in B2B SaaS for more than 12 years now. I worked with companies like Hubstaff, Closed, Bonsai, a bunch of others, and worked on many, many product pages. I've also reviewed hundreds of websites in this last one year itself while working with storylane, while working and seeing, like, some of our customers sort of websites. And I'm actually sort of just wrapping up a website redesign project. So very fresh with the some of the learnings we've had with product pages as well. Right. So there's bit of sort of context from all different places and that's why I'm excited to talk about product pages today. So why focus on product pages? Right, like, and, you know, I always sort of go back to that. You know, there's a very famous sort of graph that, you know, Brand Balfour shared, you know, well, it's sort of been like my career hack where it's sort of like you focus on high impact, low popularity projects, right? Like, those are the ones that sort of help you drive your career. And product pages are sort of those pages, you know, where nobody wants to touch them. They're often overlooked. They're hardly updated. This is the graph I was talking about this from shout out to brand Balfour from reforge. I think product pages live in that high impact, low popularity sort of thing. You know, nobody wants to sort of touch them. They're hardly updated. But if you actually work on them, it can actually drive incremental growth in your pipeline. And what's amazing is that these product pages are where a lot of these buy intent visitors are hanging out, right? So it makes sense to sort of just maybe work on that, right? And maybe just sort of like a background, like what's the point of a product page? So, right. In the earlier session we were sort of doing like a homepage sort of roast there, right? And when you look at the homepage, you basically, you know, have like these top of the funnel, middle of the funnel, bottom of the funnel, visitors coming in, right? And anybody sort of moving to a product page is potentially somebody who's sort of interested to go deeper into the product. And that's what they're sort of trying to go there. You know, they're going from the top of the funnel to more middle of the funnel or bottom of the funnel. And they're trying to self educate themselves. And your job is to educate about the product in the most unboring way possible. So they take the next step, which is to either sign up or book a demo. And yet most product pages usually, again I say most product pages make these five mistakes. They're either too long, I think, like maybe sometimes seven or eight scrolls just going one section after the other, ranting away. They're either visually dull, right? So they're just sort of like this textbook sort of a page where you just have just black, you know, white spaces with a lot of text. They're either too technical, they sort of just make the mistake where they jump in directly into like the advanced aspects of the product. Not really sort of realizing that this person sort of moving from just knowing about your product to understanding, you know, like the features, right. They're overwhelming sometimes. This is very common. You know, they have just too much information. They just. Product teams try to just explain every major and minor feature into that one product. They just clam everything in there. And then I think the last one is just putting some sort of abstract visuals or worse, like stock images on these product pages. We've seen that a lot. Instead of like real product screenshots, you know, there's obviously a longer list, but this is probably the five most that at least I've seen while working on product pages. And then there's also like this huge argument that's sort of going on right now. There's a debate, right, like should you have a demo on your product page or should you have a video on your demo page on your product page. Right. And I think my answer to that is that I think there's a place for both. And what I would probably say is that demos are great for active engagement. You know, it's particularly good for like the advanced level technical buyers who are looking to get a hands on feel of your product. You want to sort of encourage interaction. This is perfect, right? And this is where I would say you should put like your main CTA Videos in my opinion are more for like passive engagement, you know, where like for example on the homepage and if you're trying to just sort of educate like a very top of the funnel lister about you know, just about like high level aspects of your product, you would probably put like an ad which is, you know, if you've ever seen the scripts ad. That's a great sort of example of a video where you could sort of just educate on a very high level. Right. And also videos are great, you know, to sort of put like maybe two or three second clips as sort of like gifs in your product page, right? Where you sort of show like how a particular step in the product works there. It sort of makes sense. So that's why I've probably written your non primary spots. Right. But I think what I see a lot of product pages make that mistake is they try to push a video when users actually want a demo and they actually, you know, push for a demo when the users actually want a video. And so maybe like this is not like a standard rule, but at least the way I see it as like top of the funnel or extreme top of the funnel maybe focus more on the video, but middle and bottom of the funnel sort of visitors focus on more demos, right? And basically like your goal should be match the experience to users intent, whatever they're sort of looking for. And just you know, if I like, if you want to kind of get started with interact demos, you can create a free account on Storylane right away. And we pride ourselves that you can actually create a demo within 10 minutes. You can just get started anytime. All right, so I'm just going to take two examples just to sort of give you just a sense of like what may be a good product page and like what could be a bad one. We'd also take a couple of examples later on and do the roast. I'm going to take Gong's example right here. Right. So basically what I love about Gong's product pages are that they're super short. Like they just take three scrolls to sort of go through it. They offer a product tour, right? You know, if you want to sort of go deeper into the product, you can see a product tour. If you see in the particular sections that explain the product, it's not a product screenshot, it's a product gif. Right? So it's sort of like a two or three second short video sort of explaining to the product and there's like clear CTAs all across, right? That's what I absolutely love. Like, I think this is sort of like the standard that at least I sort of look up to. And that's what I love about Gong's page. I'll move to the next example of a page that I'm not a huge fan of. This is a page of Rocket Lane, right. And I think there are a couple of things that can be improved here. I think one is that it takes maybe like seven or eight scrolls to sort of just go through it. There's too much information in there. Like what I went to, you know, they've just talked about literally everything that exists in Rocket Lane into that product. And I felt like the entire page was very dull. It just had like this black, monotonous sort of tone that went there, which can easily bore sort of a buyer. Right. And the reason I wanted to sort of explain these two examples was just to sort of come to a couple of takeaways on the product pages. Right? Like, one is that you should keep your product pages short. So maybe three to four scrolls is sort of like the gold standard you could go for again, by the way, just fy like any sort of advice I'm sharing, that's my opinion, Right. Robert could have a different opinion as well on these things, but yeah, that's what we've seen work, right? Like three to four scrolls works pretty great. Don't share everything. Focus on the 8020 info, focus on some of the top features and just maybe share that. I think the second thing is add interactive demos. We've seen that technical buyers want to see the product, not see a description of the product or see a passive viewing of the product before talking to sales or signing up. That's what buyers are expecting more and more in 2024. So would highly urge you to consider that. I think another sort of learning is that you should mix things up visually. To keep them hooked throughout. So have different sort of color contrasts, have different sort of layouts, try different sort of changes every and at every website fold to just sort of keep them hooked throughout right into the story. And I think the last thing I would add into this takeaway is that product gifs are the highest priority. If you can get those, that's amazing. Then the next is product screenshots, and the next is abstract visuals. And the absolute last is stock photography, in my opinion. And that's sort of what you should look at with product pages. And then I'll also maybe just give you a quick couple of takeaways for demos in your product pages because it's very less talked about. And this is based from internal data that we have. One is this actually came from a conversation with Robert last week, which is about never sending visitors to demos with an empty state. So an example is that if you look at Hockey Stacks homepage or something, right? And if you click onto their sort of view interactive demo, what it takes you to is like this demo without any guides. It's like a full interactive product with anywhere you could click onto like a hundred places. And that is overwhelming for the user. They just don't know where to sort of click. Where do they sort of go to? Right? So never sort of do that. Always sort of take them to more like a guided experience into it. Right. The second thing is keep your demo short with like maybe maximum 12 steps. What we recommend is eight to 12 steps. And sometimes products can be very complex. They can't be covered in 12 steps. For example, cybersecurity products, they have a lot of layers to sort of explain. In those cases, we sort of suggest to split your demo into multiple flows. Right? So there are all of these product tours where you can have like these five sort of mini demos within a demo, which can all be like less than 10, 10 steps each. And you can sort of let the buyer decide what flow they want to go for. The third thing I would say is that when you create a demo, you should always focus on telling a story, not just a demo. So you want to keep people hooked. So think of it like a sort of. You're telling a story through your product, right? Like, here's where we start, you know, here's where you would see is the homepage screen, like how you would sort of go and demo a prospect. You should replicate that in your interactive demo as well in your guided experience. Fourth takeaway is that you should definitely have a persistent CTA throughout the demo that Pushes users to either book a call or visit a relevant page. Right. So what we've usually seen is that we see a lot of users, you know, also have like two CTAs where, you know, either book a demo or sort of, you know, watch something. But I think never have too big asks as CTAs in a single screen. Maybe one big ask is good. But any ask that you have, like any sort of CTA in every screen of the demo, right, like, you will see an improvement in conversion traits versus not having a persistent cta. And the last thing I would say is that I see a lot of interactive demos where they're sort of gated right at the beginning. So, you know, even if you go to Gong's demo, when you click onto it, it just sort of shows up a form. You have to fill the form and then you can access the demo. Right. Just a quick rule. This is based on, again, internal data that if you want to get more people to sort of view your demo, you should just ungate it completely. If your focus is on getting leads, then you should gate it. But just know for a fact that a lot of those leads are not going to be great. Just accept that as a fact. Right. And so a middle ground, what we saw with the data is that if you gate at step number four of the demo is usually the best. So what we call is like, you start out the demo, you give them a teaser, the first three steps, just sort of give them a preview of like how it's going to look like. And step number four, to see the rest of the demo, you sort of put like a gated cda. So, yeah, that's about it. And just FYI, like, storyline, like I said, is an Interact demo tool. We do. I said, you know, you can build your first demo in just 10 minutes. It's the easiest demo automation tool in the market. You can also see it on G2. It's used by some of the most famous sales and marketing teams. You can look at people. AI Pearson, Claudie Gong, Outreach Cognizant, Sentinel One, AngelList, NASDAQ, Dow Jones. There's a bunch of them. But yeah, and I'm excited to go into the roast.
- [14:53]
Robert Mardav
Thanks, Manab. Before we get into the roast, there's a couple questions that I think you or Robert could answer. Yeah, Rachelle jumped in and actually answered it from her perspective. But Madhav, we'll start with you. If you have a video, can you assume that people watch it or do you need to repeat that info in written text on the page.
- [15:12]
Madhav
Interesting. So what you're saying is that a video but also repeat all of that information on the. On the page. I don't think that makes sense. If you ask me. I don't see the point of repeating the same thing in that what we usually see with these videos is that the video would sort of be like a TLDR and then there's like a detailed explanation underneath that's one way or the other is sort of like if you just want to see the video and see it in action, then they would just take it there without any text explanation. Because the moment you sort of go deeper into that, you'll just make the page complex. That's at least my opinion.
- [15:46]
Robert Mardav
Okay. Robert, do you have thoughts on that question?
- [15:48]
Manav
I do, yeah. So I don't have a ton of data to back this up. When we look at especially what our clients are doing with video, we see a lot of them just don't get watched. And so we tend to caution away from videos. And So I think Madav nailed it in terms of like GIFs, product images. Make it clear and pair that with messaging. And so for me, when I look at videos, I'm absolutely going to state the main big things I want them to know next to the video because chances are they're not going to watch it. And if I'm saying different things, then I end up with like, what's the narrative? It's like it's going to be this disconnected journey of information where then it's kind of a hodgepodge. So that'd be my take a little bit without any more context.
- [16:25]
Robert Mardav
It's like a semi hot take is no videos on product tours or videos are a backup plan to other things. Before five years ago, videos were on every product tour pretty much before products like Storyline came into the market. So you're basically saying we're moving away from video in product tours if we.
- [16:41]
Manav
Want to bake it into a hot take, yes. But at any part of it for me is like, how and why are you using the videos? Right. So when I start to think of good and bad, it really comes down to like, what are you putting in the video as it relates to product pages, they should be fairly, not necessarily technical, but more geared towards like the implementation and how things are going to work. What I see a lot of teams do is they end up trying to promote the feature. And it's like that's probably not why they're in the product page in the first place. They're already kind of bought into your product concept. Now they want to see exactly how the feature works. And so if you have those videos and you make them quite modular, which I see a lot happen, even in like structured demos, then it can work. So I don't want to dive all in and say never use video. It's just like, are you actually helping your visitor or prospect answer some of the key questions when they get to that point in your website?
- [17:30]
Robert Mardav
Okay, that's a great answer, Robert. I'm going to give you the next question and then we'll go back to Manav to answer this one as well. So the next question is from Ellen. It's what's the balance between showing product screenshots and proprietary information when you have competitors who are literally breathing down your neck to steal your enhancement? So what's the balance of showing? And actually, I'm really interested in the answer here too, because you do interact with demos, you show a lot behind the scenes that in a couple years ago we weren't able to do. But like, what's the balance there between giving away too much information to competitors, but also obviously getting enough information for your prospects?
- [18:05]
Manav
My take on this, if your competitors want to see your product, they're going to find a way to see your product. It's not that hard. They're going to have a peer or somebody they know that's seen the demo, that's going to share a screenshot or tell them how it worked, or just send the whole thing that they have access to of existing customers. It's not that difficult to get access to products nowadays. And so when it comes to sharing stuff, don't share your source code and don't share necessarily like what you think the secret sauce is underneath, but definitely highlight your differentiation. If your competitors are like looking into that, they don't really know how you got there. And so that's the whole thing is like, if they're overly focused on what you're putting on your page, you're already ahead of them. And I just wouldn't worry about it too much.
- [18:45]
Madhav
Yeah, yeah, 100% agree with Robert on that. Like, I feel like, I think we all sort of live in that age. Like no matter how much you sort of protect your in app ui, literally every competitor knows what it looks like, whether that's through whatever sources they have. Right. Honestly, like whether you sort of not show it or show it, like, they'll still know. Right. And I feel that buyers want to see the ui. They want to sort of self educate themselves. Before they talk to sales or before they sign up or before they add their credit card info. That is a requirement. And instead of letting your buyers sort of wait to sort of book a call or something, right. You should just sort of give them access right away. Like I 100% agree with Robert on that.
- [19:25]
Dave Gerhard
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- [21:15]
Robert Mardav
Okay, we'll do one more and then we'll jump into our first teardown because I don't want to have enough time and then we'll answer more questions. Obviously along the way, hopefully there's some questions about some of the pages we're going to roast. And also I want to say thank you, everyone who's responding and providing answers to each other in the chat. This is great. This is why it's fun to have everyone come together like this. Because it's not just our experts we can learn from, but we can definitely learn from each other. Okay, the other question I was going to ask, we'll start with Manav, because you were last to speak. What about customer testimonial videos on a product page? Do they work there? Are they worth including or don't? Let's say we're talking about doing video in product pages for now. If you are going to do video, is it worth putting a customer testimonial video there?
- [21:55]
Madhav
Yeah, I agree on that. I think video testimonials, in my opinion are better than text in a way that they provide more authenticity than text. Like, text is like, hey, you know, you could fudge it up, whatever. Video is somebody actually talking. Right. So it works. But that being said, there's a bit of a caveat there. If you're putting like a five minute video there, it doesn't make sense. I think a video testimonial should be under a minute, preferably maybe under 30 seconds. Just put that there just so that it's quick to scan. And like, if anybody wants to go read the case study, they could do that later. And that's generally with any video on the product page. Right. Like, nothing should cross the 32nd or a minute threshold. Anything beyond that, you're sort of losing away proper thoughts.
- [22:34]
Manav
Yeah. So this brings up, I think, an interesting point that we might see come up in these audits as well is I am definitely pro testimonials. I'm all for video testimonials as well. Or at the very least getting like imagery and naming who's actually saying all the nice things. Sometimes I see folks like not add all that data and they're like, Luke said this nice thing. And it's like, that's great, but who the hell's Luke? Like, why should I care? Now, the thing that's interesting here is really the difference between a homepage and a product page is interesting because some of the products that we're even going to get into in the audit, their product pages we're looking at are kind of homepages for one of the products they sell to where if you go to their homepage, it's kind of like, hey, we've got these five products. And so you go to their product page, what you're really sitting at is a homepage for one of the products. That's a place where I think testimonials live. There's a counter argument on, like, hey, when you move from a single product on the homepage to a product page, that it should be more feature discovery, almost resource intensive, where they've already made the jump of like, yeah, I kind of buy into this. I see. You could do what you do. And they're looking for details, those type of product pages. I would say testimonials become less important because the questions you're trying to answer are like, do you solve for this specific use case? And do you have this integration that I need based on where I'm at? And, like, the testimonials just probably won't cover that and will be somewhat irrelevant. And so it'll be interesting to see how that kind of susses out even as we dive into these audits.
- [23:56]
Robert Mardav
Perfect transition. Let's get into our first audit. We'll do a quick scroll through the page, give everyone a second to look at it. And Robert, you have the mic first, so feel free to kick it off wherever you want.
- [24:06]
Manav
Yeah, well, let you do your scroll. I'm going to hit you with the good, the bad, and then maybe like a little tip and then madav could come in and argue for or against. Yeah, I'm going to throw ugly right into the bad category.
- [24:20]
Robert Mardav
Okay, great, great.
- [24:21]
Manav
I'm not going to pull any punches either. So if you go back to the top, the thing that I like here that they're doing in the page is they're leading with a clear capability. They're telling me or giving me a sense of, like, what I would do with this thing. I think that's fantastic. The other thing, just in terms of aesthetic, I love the overall kind of design and simplicity of the page. Specifically, if you go down into the how it works, the nav bar on the left, I particularly like. I've got some bad tied into this, but I love how they're trying to basically say, hey, we don't know exactly what feature you're looking for. Here's our top ones. To make it easier to navigate and find the thing. Now, where it falls short for me a little bit is they have this really cool navigation, but if you keep going down, then they have just another, like, dump of features. So it's under, like, grow and engage workforce. Like, then there's this. And it's like, I almost want to see these feature arguments in their structure that I think would be really Cool to help me navigate like oh, here's all our integrations and here's where all our features related to crafting emails. And so that's where I think there was a little miss on more just structure overall. Let's see what I have here. So like the nav clean design leading with capabilities from a bad piece. I think where this page got a little confusing for me and I think it will for visitors, I actually think partially ties back into the almost in some ways the positioning. They say that it's an internal email software, which I thought was interesting. They're also calling it an internal comm software and an internal newsletter software. And so somewhere in there they're telling me that like, hey, this is for sending emails. And then they're kind of positioning against Outlook and these other pieces. And that got a little confusing to me because it's like, do I really need a better way to build an email? When lower down the page they dive into the newsletter, it's like, hey, this is for building an internal newsletter. And so I think one thing that would help structurally with the way they introduce these features is really being clear of primarily what it's for. And I felt like just the broader sending internal emails was just too high level that then made it unclear like what even the best features are.
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Robert Mardav
So would you start that Robert, here with newsletters? It sounds like newsletters is something like the use case for internal email. You would basically from a messaging standpoint start talking about newsletters in this H1.
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Manav
Yes. And when you do that, then it helps frame. And this gets into another thing. If you scroll all the way down to like the green band, if you frame it on use cases, then it helps you articulate the problem you're solving, which is definitely related to this newsletter piece. At least that's the way it's like sprinkled throughout the page. If you do that, then the features and the organization of such become much more easier to pinpoint of. Like in other words, where does Outlook break for newsletters where this purpose built tool really shines. And I think you would get a really a better level of prioritization that can go into the page. But all in all I thought it was pretty solid in general. I just think that there's a couple of those pieces there on just focus areas that could help structure it a bit better. Okay, awesome.
- [27:17]
Robert Mardav
Thank you, Robert. I don't know if the content monkey team is on. I'm actually not looking at the chat right now. I can't at the same time. But if you are, hopefully you found that feedback helpful. Manav, let's kick it over to you. What are your thoughts on this page?
- [27:28]
Madhav
Yeah, I think, I mean, Robert covered it, a lot of it already, so I'll just probably just maybe try to cover the things that, you know, he might have sort of missed. So visually it looks absolutely amazing and I agree with Robert, like the top features is such a interesting way. You know, it sort of goes back to what I was saying, not have all the information, just focus on surfacing the 80, 20 of that. I think there are a couple of things there. What would be interesting is first, could you sort of just maybe click on the product nav menu? So we've got the product overview, they've got email builders and all of that. They've sort of taken the top features and put that a little bit in here. And then if you click on book a demo, what does that take you to? Landing page. Got it.
- [28:10]
Robert Mardav
Now scroll.
- [28:11]
Madhav
Yeah, scroll. That's fantastic. And then if you just go back and click on to other platform.
- [28:17]
Robert Mardav
This is an interactive demo. I think this might be. Is this what I think it is?
- [28:21]
Madhav
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is an interactive. So what they've gone for is sort of gated the interactive demo right at the beginning just so they can sort of capture all the leads and they've probably added it as like a second page and I think that they might have added it just so to add like the gating and collect leads. Right. Ideally, I think it would have made sense to add the demo sort of in the page itself, not add like a second step to sort of go to another page and sort of interact with that. But that's a small thing. So if you just sort of maybe fill in the information in here.
- [28:51]
Robert Mardav
I'm not going to put my phone number in front of 400 people, but I'll just make up one. Let's see how good their detectors are for. Sorry for doing this. Contact Monkey team. But you did ask for it. So I'm a bad lead in your database. I'm just going to say it right now.
- [29:04]
Dave Gerhard
All right, great, we're in.
- [29:05]
Madhav
This is, by the way, a storyline demo. This is super interesting.
- [29:07]
Robert Mardav
Oh, cool. We didn't do that on purpose, just for the record. That just happened to be that way, which is great.
- [29:12]
Madhav
Yeah, it's written right here. Yeah, but so this is an interesting one. They've sort of split the demo into sort of these sort of multi flows, which I was talking about earlier, I think, where they could have done something interesting. Is that what we always recommend is to have a good sort of starting screen, right? You're sort of, you know they just went into like these multi floor demos but I think an introduction initially would have been great that a lot of people don't know what this experience is, right? Like they don't know what, how they sort of go around with this. So maybe just sort of giving an intro that hey, you know this is sort of how just a sandbox environment or some sort of a way to understand how you look and feel. Like you could also add like a GIF or some sort of a hello or something just to sort of keep it fun. And then I think what's interesting that all of the demos that they have in here are less than 10 steps. So that's a take, that's a good win on every step. And then if you click on any of the demos and just move to perhaps the next one I want to see if they've added. They do have a persistent CT on the left which is book a demo and then if you just keep going towards the end.
- [30:13]
Robert Mardav
So I'm building an email right now that's I believe that's the one I clicked on showing me tracking. I'm on step seven, here's a template that's eight and then nine. Here we go.
- [30:24]
Madhav
Got it. So it seems like they've added like a demo on every multi flow which is also pretty good. I would say this is a pretty great page. Like there's not a lot sort of to share just I think the only thing I would have said is that add an intro. And the other thing is also if you go back to the product page I saw the product screen was a little sort of pixelated a little bit.
- [30:44]
Robert Mardav
Somewhere I saw here or back on the interactive demo.
- [30:47]
Madhav
No, no, not in the interactive demo but like somewhere on this page I think I saw that maybe it was my screen.
- [30:52]
Robert Mardav
They don't really use the ui. That would be one of my pieces of feedback is I like it when you spend the time like this isn't bad, like this gives me some familiarity. But this is a huge image. Like every email builder looks like this, right? So like give me something that's a little bit unique that's going to stand out and make the point you're trying.
- [31:08]
Madhav
To make a hundred percent. I think what they also don't have. I mean again this is sort of going a little off the point from what Robert said. I feel you should have some sort of social validation or like whatever customer validation on this page, they just have, like, the G2 reviews. They don't really have.
- [31:23]
Manav
They're hiding at the bottom. I would move these up, these types of stuff that they have.
- [31:28]
Madhav
Are the logos also at the bottom? Could you scroll even further, Dan?
- [31:32]
Manav
Well, actually, I don't know about logos, but the badges are down there.
- [31:35]
Robert Mardav
And then there was integrations.
- [31:37]
Madhav
Yeah, integrations is fine in my opinion, if it's downwards. But, like, I would have also added logos in here.
- [31:41]
Robert Mardav
But yeah, like, who's using it? Validation. Is it someone like me? And am I a good fit because another company that I know of is using it?
- [31:50]
Madhav
Yep.
- [31:51]
Robert Mardav
Cool. All right, let's do ratings one through 10, I think, is what we're doing. 10 is out of this world. Amazing. Maybe the best thing you've ever seen. One is, I think, was described earlier as, take this off the Internet. It's so bad. So Robert, put you in the spot between 1 and 10. What would you rate it?
- [32:08]
Manav
Let's go 5. 5. 5.5. Yes.
- [32:14]
Robert Mardav
Okay, 5.5 from Robert Madhav, what about you?
- [32:17]
Madhav
Yeah, I'd give it a seven. It's a pretty good base.
- [32:20]
Robert Mardav
Okay, 5.5 and a seven. And everyone else, please chat in. Let us know. I see Ellen, Anna already added their ratings. Got a seven and a six. So somewhere around the same ballpark as you guys. All right, let's jump to our next one. I want to be efficient here and get through a couple more if we can. So our next one is going to be tenant. I actually added a chat over here now, so I can see people chatting and apologies, I wasn't looking at it before. This is Tenon and I will do a scroll this time. We'll have madav go first. I will do the scroll and madav, feel free to jump in wherever you want. And then I will scroll and click around as you desire.
- [32:51]
Madhav
Yeah, so if you just scroll to the top, like, maybe. Let's just start from the top itself. Right. I am not at all a fan of using stock imagery on a product page, and I feel this is wasted product page real estate. Like, you could have absolutely added a product screenshot or even a demo or whatever.
- [33:10]
Robert Mardav
Right.
- [33:10]
Madhav
Like anything. Like, this is just a wasted piece of space. I think this is something I would definitely improve on. Visually, this page is actually pretty nice. The Take a Tour is very sort of visible all across, and even the colors are sort of a nice contrast. It keeps it interesting. And then if you could just click on Take a Tour. I'm the guy who always clicks on Take a tour. Ah, okay, interesting. So it takes them to a video and yeah, so this is maybe a mismatch in experience in my opinion. How long is the video? Could you click on that?
- [33:45]
Robert Mardav
2 and a half minutes.
- [33:46]
Madhav
It's not bad, but it's still long if you ask me.
- [33:49]
Robert Mardav
I think one others comment, this, this drives me nuts. When you have a YouTube embed. And look, I could go the speech that broke the Internet. Matthew McConaughey, this is Disney. Like that should not be on a product page on your website. And then the second thing, I'll. Sorry, I'm not supposed to be chatting in, but I'm infuriated and I'll roast this. No, I'm not a curated. I'm just trying to be helpful. I've done this before. I've been there, I've done the embed. Actually had my CEO send me that screenshot. That exact screenshot. I was like, why are we linking to these other YouTube videos? So I get it. I've been there. I will say the talking head and the zoom around. I used to make videos like this at HubSpot back in the day. This is kind of hard to follow in two and a half minutes is a long, long time to listen. I don't think you're going to get high engagement on that. Like a minute and 20 seconds is the most I would ever do a video on a product tour. All right, I'm done, but I'm sorry, I'll give you the mic back.
- [34:34]
Madhav
No, no, I think this is a fantastic point. Yeah, I didn't even like. I mean, thanks for pointing out the sort of YouTube widgets showing up. I think the other thing that I sort of did not like about this page was there's no option to book a demo like from the product page. You have to click on take a tour and then see this sort of video in here. And then through that you're able to book a demo, which I feel is a wasted opportunity. I think you should have a take a tour and a book a demo CTA badly on the product page. So if you just go back to the product page.
- [35:01]
Robert Mardav
All right, let's scroll down a little bit.
- [35:03]
Madhav
This is a product screenshot. It's not an animated, not a movie.
- [35:07]
Robert Mardav
And by the way, I'm on a pretty big monitor here. I guess I've maybe it shows a little bit more condensed, but that is hard to read on a big monitor. And I've had. If I shrink, I don't want to break anything, but if I shrink, It. I don't think it's going to get much better. The aspect ratio and fitting it.
- [35:22]
Madhav
Yeah.
- [35:22]
Robert Mardav
Harriet Madav, I'm just. Sorry. There's a few things here that are just for me, important ones to cover. So I apologize for talking over you, but I just think that's another really important one is just being able to figure out, like, this doesn't lead employee table of sort. Like, it doesn't mean a lot to me and I'm probably going to glance over it and just go to the text or move on to the next thing. This is a little bit better in terms of it has a few things that maybe they relate and I kind of understand a form and I'm building.
- [35:45]
Manav
Okay.
- [35:45]
Robert Mardav
It's marketing automation. But for this you really want to focus on, like, zoom in on what is the most important part here.
- [35:51]
Madhav
Yeah, 100%. And just to sort of add to this. Right. Like this screenshot, even if it's small and everything, that's a different problem. But the other problem is that if you look at the text here, manager marketing contacts with precision. Right. There is no way I'm going to get the context of that with a screenshot. I don't know what's the before and the after of the screenshot. And I think there needs to be a way to show that that's a gif or something. Right. Because this is not doing a good enough job to sort of explain that to me. I think that's maybe one point. Could you scroll down a little bit more, Dan? Of course. Yeah, got it. And then they've got. Yeah, got it.
- [36:25]
Robert Mardav
Robert, anything to you standing out of what we've scrolled through so far? Oh, we got a video down here.
- [36:29]
Manav
Yeah. The big things for me, most of my feedback on this one, I think ties to the challenge of like, they're this marketing platform, so they do a bunch of stuff. And so like, it's lacking a lot of the details, but that just might be the nature of their product. To me specifically, I think the hero. I think it's pretty weak. I think they're kind of leading with this outcome branded message. Like, I don't know what tenant automate is. Boost engagement. Okay. That can be anything. Engagement with who? And so like, their differentiation gets lost for me. It's like, what's valuable about this? Now, in their defense, they do an okay job of explaining at that altitude. Oh, they do contacts, they do emails, they do landing pages, and they do analytics. But then the rest of the page gets kind of redundant. They hit it again, after they do those four sections, then they say, again, we do email, we do lists, we do analytics, we do landing pages. And then what? Really, to me, the other thing is like, I don't think this video is going to get watched. And then I clicked on.
- [37:19]
Robert Mardav
Just so you guys know, each of those is a link and it has a separate page. So there's an email deliverability page. So this is really just navigation that they put in the middle of this page.
- [37:27]
Manav
Yep. And maybe that's the right path just based on, like, how much their product does. But that video here, I don't think that's getting watched. And then I kind of chuckled because these articles down here just feel haphazardly thrown in. It's like, what are these things? Tenant, tip, reflect, refocus, then run. It's like, wait, I thought I was, like, figuring out what this product does, and suddenly I'm now reading an article. So this is a little different than the McConaughey video popping up. But to me, I don't think you want to drive people to these, like, abstract articles. I don't think they have a place on the page.
- [37:54]
Madhav
Yeah, I agree. Blogs just don't make sense at all. And even the why about us, like, I mean, the why video is. I don't think it lives on the product page. These are people that have sort of already answered the why somewhere else. Like they're here to just go in a deep exploration.
- [38:11]
Manav
Yeah, my guess would be that there. And I don't know. And that's why I think there's an opportunity here. They have built on ServiceNow, which my assumption would be that that is their combination of differentiation and their focus, target market kind of all in one. But they do it in a way that's so subtle of like, oh, hey, we're built on ServiceNow. And then they explain everything versus, like, reorienting it of like, finally a way to make ServiceNow do all the things we wanted it to do. Here's the things. Like, I don't get that. And so I'm not even sure if that's the differentiator. I had to guess at that. And so I think that could be.
- [38:40]
Robert Mardav
Yeah, it seems like they do mention it a couple times, but I agree, like, that ServiceNow logo could be more prominent in other places on the page. Yeah, let's say they have a separate page about built on ServiceNow. It does seem like they've anchored pretty heavily around the relationship with server now, which to your point, is probably the big differentiator. But I think you could definitely, if it's only mentioned six times on this page, just at the lookup, you could double down on that. That's your big differentiator. That's the thing people are looking for. Make that, make every point almost about that. Right?
- [39:05]
Manav
Yeah. And then all the features get more specific because then it'd be like, oh yeah, don't use generic marketing platform. Because then when I go do contacts, like then I can actually hit it be like, never do this manual transport again. Like it's all LinkedIn. Like the feature gets even just much more sharp and more compelling overall.
- [39:21]
Madhav
Yeah. Just to sort of add like one last point, like just the built on service now thing.
- [39:25]
Robert Mardav
Right.
- [39:25]
Madhav
And there's a lot of these products today that are being built over platforms, like updating sort of your CRM and Salesforce through another platform. Right. And I think the tenant folks should sort of take inspiration from them. Like how they've sort of taken something built over a platform and just using that as a more focused page. I think that might be the probably a better path to move forward.
- [39:46]
Robert Mardav
Okay, so there's a couple of questions that have come in. I have done a poor job keeping up with them. I apologize. But let me jump in with Joanna's question, which is would you have articles that relate back to that specific product like we mentioned? Robert, you're actually the one brought up the articles down here.
- [39:59]
Manav
Yeah.
- [39:59]
Robert Mardav
Would you have them that link back to the specific product or are you no blog articles at all on a product or page?
- [40:06]
Manav
To me, the blog articles are primarily likely to get them to your homepage and your product page. And so the fact that they're here is like, what do you want to send them in a loop to bring them back to the product page? It's like they're here. Tell them what they need to know now. Caveat action page.
- [40:18]
Robert Mardav
Yeah.
- [40:18]
Manav
If you have articles that are tie into how the product's being used. Again, I wouldn't call those articles. Those end up being case studies. We're like, then yes, place those in here. But articles themselves that are like, why you need a marketing automation platform. It's like they're here. They're bought into that concept at least partially of like, yeah, I'm kind of looking at a new marketing automation platform like try and resell the already sold in a way in terms of awareness.
- [40:42]
Robert Mardav
And hey, this is the huge value that people can get from just having a third party read it. Because we've all been in that position where we're writing Pages or we're editing pages or making updates, we're doing redesigns and then we kind of lose sight of that perspective, like that outsider perspective because you get so caught up in the language, you're making this work with your blog integration or whatever it is. So like these are points that like we all have done this, we all have been in this position and put stuff in like this. But when you have that third party perspective where it's kind of like just a fresh perspective, you're like, oh wait, that doesn't make sense there. Right? Like it's so easy to overlook. So I'm really glad we're doing this and covering things like this because I think this is exactly what people need to really improve their product or pages. So this is awesome. Okay, let's jump to the next one because I want to have enough time. I think we're going to give away some stem rush in a little bit and so I want to be have enough time to do that at the end. But let's jump to our next page. This is from a company called, I think it's Enow Software or it's Anow software. I'm not sure if it's. I guess it's Anow, but I'm not totally sure. Robert, we can start with you first and I will do the slow scroll and then you tell me where to go and we'll do it.
- [41:47]
Manav
Yeah, so let's go. Let's see where we want to go first. I think actually just in the overall scroll, there is way too much copy on this page. Like this is. There's just way too much. There's no other way around it. Like all across the board. Now on the flip side, they do a pretty good job if we just look at the hero I liked like, oh, advanced monitoring reporting for your Microsoft 365. I love that. But then I'm losing a little bit of the context. Like who's this for? And like what exactly is monitoring and reporting? I could make the assumption that it's it related, but is it really? Like, I'm not sure. And so like types of companies that they're going after can be really helpful. Now they answer this in the first paragraph there and then there's some other things in here. Like they should move that up. They should be like, you know, helping IT departments, you know, better handle monitoring reporting. What's interesting is that if you look at the purple headers as you scroll down the page that specifically detect outages quickly monitor hybrid Components and Custom365 reporting those are pretty damn good overall. And so to me figuring out a way to make those like still live how they live but then very short and concise trying explaining like exactly how they do those things even making those the kind of H1 instead of advanced monitoring is like detect outages, monitor hybrid components of your365 environment. Like it would just be razor sharp. I immediately know why I'm on the page and then they can unpack the argument. The other thing I noticed just from a messaging standpoint that I truly didn't like is if you look at the second scroll, second paragraph, they're making a value argument here. Greater visibility, deliverability. Yes but the second paragraph they then go on to say while increasing workplace productivity. To me that is so non believable the concept that hey, me being able to know when Office365 is done makes my teams more productive. Like that is such a bad argument that doesn't tie into what they're doing. And so in all of this the last thing I'll say is too much copy. They've got a little bit of like random assets in here similar to the articles before. They've got like enjoy these resources. Oh and by the way, you might want to know how to master Microsoft Teams quality. Like there's some pieces in here that just don't fit but this one has a lot of potential because I did read the whole page. The reality is no one's going to read the whole page. The pieces are in here to really establish what is this thing, what does it replace or augment and then what are the coolest things. Like they have it all, they just need to sharpen it. They really need to turn in on that.
- [44:12]
Robert Mardav
To me, this one is they relied on their strength which is copywriting. And clearly the end result was they went with this. Whether it's an external strength where they hired someone, they felt like this is the way to go or it's an internal strength. Like maybe the, you know, the marketing team here. Like if you read some of the copy. I was just randomly reading this. However, the honeymoon phase soon came to a screeching halt. I mean like someone spent some real time. Like that's not something you normally read in product or copy. Like someone sent some serious time and they have. So this is like a real old school like sales page where they just. It's super tax heavy and back in the day you could get people to read that stuff or enough of it and it feels like this just needs to be modernized. But I feel like they have so much good position.
- [44:48]
Manav
It does feel like the sales leave behind. That's a great catch, Dan. That's like exactly what it feels like.
- [44:53]
Robert Mardav
Yeah, exactly. And maybe that's where they got it, but. Okay, Manav, let me kick it over to you. What are your thoughts? Obviously we're all, I think probably all on the same page about the amount of text, right?
- [45:01]
Madhav
Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent we're on the same page. I think one is that when you click on Get Started. Can you just click on get started today? Yeah, that's what I was hearing. I think this takes them to a demo page, which is the wrong expectation setting. You click on get started today.
- [45:17]
Robert Mardav
Oh, interesting. Yeah, actually it adds in the fields after. Well, everybody's got my email now, so feel free to shoot me an email if you think this session was good bad. Let's say we're in Angolia. That's fast. Form submitted. A member of our team will reach out shortly. Click here if you're ready to book a meeting now. Interesting. It looks like it goes to someone's link to actually go and schedule, so I'm not really sure. Seems like a little bit conflicting there on the. This would be a good one to cover in the landing page session as well. You know, like the intended action and getting someone to actually take the next step.
- [45:46]
Madhav
Yeah, like, I mean, when you have get started today, the expectation is I'm going to get started right now. There's a PLG motion that I'm expecting there. I'm not expecting to book a demo and then get, you know, a sales call with somebody a week later. That's not what I'm looking for here. So this I felt was a miss on their end for Sean. If you could just go back the page.
- [46:05]
Robert Mardav
Yeah, that's all the way on the bottom below. What? Well, I actually thought this was the footer when I came through it. Just by the way, I thought the page was over. But the footer's not here. Yeah, sorry, let me go back up. You said. Yeah, yeah.
- [46:16]
Madhav
So I think that. And then you also, like, if you see these icons. Right. Like, I think that they honestly don't mean anything if you ask me. I think they should use some sort of product screenshots. I'm going to go keep going back to the same advice. And then also, this is a hot take. Not a big fan of animated explainers. I feel somebody's on a product page. They should see the actual product, whether that's through a product video, a Product video is better here than an animated explainer. Or even just a loom video is better than an animated explainer. I think that should have been different then. I think maybe the last thing I would say here is that it's a very monotonous sort of a design. It's just white and grays constantly. Right. And I feel that there is no personality on this page. And I think they could do with some sort of breaking the monotony on every fold. I think that would work. Like, of course, I think the bane of the problem here is that obviously the excessive content on this page. But I think apart from that, like, it's just these things I would look at.
- [47:08]
Robert Mardav
All right, let's pause there. Apologies. I said we're giving away Semrush. We're giving away story lane. Manav, you should have cut me off there and told me that I'm. I was just talking to the production team and they were calling me out for it and letting me know that I had that slip up. And I was saying, I'm just having too much fun. Like, we could do four more of these and I could spend another two hours doing this because it is fun.
- [47:26]
Madhav
Yeah, 100%.
- [47:28]
Robert Mardav
All right, so I am not sharing my screen anymore. Let me go back into the chat. We have five minutes left. Let me just see if we can do, like, a question or two, and then we're going to give away some story Lane to a couple people in a few seconds. Let's look at the chats. Do you like animated explainers at all or just not on the product page? I think that's a question for Robert. Or was that Madav that was talking about it?
- [47:50]
Madhav
Yeah, I don't like animated explainers at all. Simple answer.
- [47:53]
Robert Mardav
Okay, this is good. Let's do the lightning round. Just one person answering each. Robert, you get the next one. Any insights about effectiveness of wording for CTA? For example, request a demo vs learn more vs contact a sales expert.
- [48:07]
Manav
This one's going to be highly dependent on basically your acquisition model and how the product works. I don't have too much to say other than, like, make it seem like it's something your prospect might actually say or do. Rather than trying to bake it into your ideal next step, it should mimic their ideal next step.
- [48:24]
Robert Mardav
Perfect. Okay, let's give away some Storylane. So we're giving away three free months to Storylane, which is about valued at about $2,000 each. And I have not one, not two, but three companies that have won today's this session's giveaway, I should say, because we have a few more things going on. The first is Deirdre Walsh from Circuit. Congratulations, Deirdre. Thank you for being here and thanks for listening to our session today. The second is Alex Hunter from Hyark. I don't know Hyark, but a R, C, K. Nope, that's actually how you spell Arc. Good one, Dan. And then Kelsey Verdier. Verdier. I'm so bad with names, guys. I'm really sorry. And the company's Marquis, M A, R, Q, I, I, I think that one's not on me. That's an alternate spelling. So, Kelsey, Alex, Deirdre, congratulations. We'll get you emailed, we'll get you connected with storylane. Thanks for showing up today's session and thanks for participating in the ropes. All right, parting thoughts, Robert or Manav. Parting thoughts on anything we covered today. Any last minute advice for anyone on.
- [49:26]
Manav
Their product or overarching advice on product pages in general is I think, number one, figure out, are you creating a homepage for the product or are you creating a page that goes deeper into the product? And I think we saw a couple of flavors of each of those and as you can tell, they have little different strategies where the homepage for the product is going to have more of a positioning angle with like, what are the key value props and then the positioning on the product page, the deep dive is where you really start to get a little bit more into like where and how do I do demos? How do I show the features in the best way? What are they trying to learn? And then maybe pay close attention to the headers you're using. Remember, people aren't going to read these pages. They are going to skim. And so navigation, nailing the main points to help them find the argument they're looking for becomes really critical.
- [50:12]
Madhav
How about you? Yeah, I think for me it's more like maybe just ask yourself whenever you're creating a product page, right? Like, why should a buyer get on a sales call or give their credit card details or give their email address to be able to just see the product? That should not be the case. And I think wherever possible try to have like product screenshots or like the animated screenshots are explained or demos. I think those work really well.
- [50:38]
Robert Mardav
Awesome. Well, thank you both for spending the time with us today. Congrats to our winners of storylane and hopefully those that were teared down, that we tore down, I guess is the way we say it. Hopefully we got some valuable feedback. Some some notes. Excited. Oh, and we dropped the links, I believe for both Robert and Madhav. They're linked up there it is. Perfect timing. You want to go follow them on LinkedIn? They're both great follows on LinkedIn. Go do that and you can stay in touch with them. Hey, Danielle, welcome back.
- [51:02]
Madhav
Hey.
- [51:02]
Robert Mardav
That was a great session. I feel like I learned a lot that I didn't know about product pages. So thank you, Madhav and Robert.
- [51:09]
Manav
Sure thing. And the folks at Beneath and Rinsed, those are the other ones we didn't get to. If they want to reach out to Madav and ourselves, I know we looked at the pages. We'll have some thoughts. Feel free to send us a note just directly on LinkedIn.
- [51:20]
Robert Mardav
Yep. All right. Thank you guys so much.
- [51:25]
Manav
Thank you.
- [51:29]
Dave Gerhard
Hey, thanks for listening to this podcast. If you like this episode. You know what? I'm not even going to ask you to subscribe and leave a review, because I don't really care about that. I have something better for you. So we've built the number one private community for B2B marketers at exit 5. And you can go and check that out. Instead of leaving a rating or review, go check it out right now on our website, exit5.com our mission at Exit 5 is to help you, help you grow your career in B2B marketing. And there's no better place to do that than with us at exit 5. There's nearly 5,000 members now in our community. People are in there posting every day, asking questions about things like marketing, planning, ideas, inspiration, asking questions and getting feedback from your peers. Building your own network of marketers who are doing the same thing you are so you can have a peer group or maybe just venting about your boss when you need to get in there and get support off your chest. It's 100% free to join for seven days, so you can go and check it out risk free. And then there's a small annual fee to pay if you want to become a member for the year. Go check it out. Learn more exit5.com and I will see you over there in the community. Email, in my humble opinion, is still the greatest marketing channel of all time. It's the only way you can truly own your audience today. But when it comes to building those emails, well, if you've ever tried building an email in an enterprise marketing automation platform, you know just how painful that can be. I won't name names, but templates get too rigid. Editing code can break things, and the whole process just takes forever. When it shouldn't. That's why we love knack here at exit 5. Knack is a no code email platform that makes it easy to create on brand high performing emails without the bottlenecks. If you're frustrated by clunky email builders, you need nac. If you're tired of hoping the email you sent looks good across all devices, just test it in NAC first. And if you're a big team that's making it hard to collaborate and get approvals on your email, you definitely need nac. The best part? Everything takes a fraction of the time. You can see Knack in action@knack.com exit 5 that's K-N a K.com ex exit 5. Or just let them know you heard about NAC from Exit 5. That's us.