← The Dave Gerhardt Show (from Exit Five)
The Dave Gerhardt Show (from Exit Five)
Running a Media Company Inside HubSpot with Jonathan Hunt (VP, Media and Content)
00:49:21
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Hey, it's Dave. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends at optimizely. Optimizely is the AI platform built for modern marketing teams, helping you create content, run experiments, personalize experiences and optimize your website. All powered by agentic AI.
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I want to be the person on
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Optimizely.com/5 hey, it's Dave.
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I want to give a shout out
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to the team at Vector for sponsoring this episode. Vector is a contact level ads platform. Look, you probably have anonymous buyers lurking in your funnel. People that you can't identify or follow up with. People you can't target with any real precision. So you end up throwing ads at job titles and hoping that the right person sees them. Vector fixes that. Instead of targeting job titles and crossing your fingers, Vector lets you build audiences from actual people. The ones in your site, clicking your ads and checking out your competitors. And they just launched their MCP server that lets you connect AI like Claude and ChatGPT directly to their platform. It connects to your LinkedIn ads and site visitor data. So instead of clicking through dashboards, you just ask your AI a question and get an answer. Which ad creatives are fatiguing right now? Which companies are engaging but not converting? Which actually driving pipeline right now?
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What new ideas should we be running?
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That's V E C T O R
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co. And if they ask you how you heard about them, tell them. Exit 5 please.
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See ya. You're listening to the Dave Gerhardt show.
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Hey.
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My guest on this episode is Jonathan Hunt. He's the VP of content and media at HubSpot. His team is probably the biggest and most influential media operation in all of B2B. Right now they have 70 people. They're putting out 95 long form videos a month across 17 different YouTube channels and getting HubSpot in front of 50 million people. And the way Jonathan thinks about his job is simple. Doesn't mean it's easy, but it's simple. He said, I run a media company
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inside of a software company.
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I like that. I know a lot of people are thinking about content and media in this world of AI. We get into how he runs a network of 150 creators, how he tells the measurement story to the CFO, how do they prove that all this stuff is working? And he talks about the AI clipping engine his team built in a six week sprint and why they run six week sprints now on the content team. So let's get into it. Here's my conversation with Jonathan from HubSpot. All right. Excited to have Jonathan on. Jonathan, new friend. We broke bread over too much pizza the other night to. I haven't eaten since our dinner the other day.
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C
Yeah, I don't think I've consumed that many carbs since college probably.
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B
That was tough. I had a tough night and then like to leave there and have to get in in bed and go home. That was a tough scene. But big energy in New York, right, Nick, coming off that, the Knicks win. Yeah.
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C
Oh my God. Knicks made it in five. Yeah, it was a, it's quite a moment. Like I don't think I've experienced that since maybe like 08 Obama or even like Biden. Like people just like swarming the streets and like jumping on cars and cheering.
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B
Did your kids, you stay up with your kids and watch it?
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C
My youngest wasn't able to stay up that late but my oldest did and you know, he'll remember that for the rest of his life.
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B
That's fun. That's fun. Fun. Time to be There. Okay, so you're on the pod and you work for a company. A lot of us know, HubSpot. You are the VP of Content and media. And I thought it's interesting to have you on pod because, man, and I just said this to you backstage, so it's going to sound like I'm, I'm repeating it, but, like, this is, you know, so many people in our, in our audience. Like, we came up in this era of like, HubSpot inbound marketing, create content. I prided myself on being a content marketer, and now it's like, all that stuff has changed. What does a company like HubSpot do when traffic goes away? And then, you know, a year ago, everyone in, in this world was like, posting like, you know, HubSpot's traffic and all this stuff. But in parallel, you're building up this, like, new way of doing marketing, which is this content and media machine that you run. So I wanted to have Jonathan on to come talk about that and also hopefully leave you with two or three things that you can take and apply to your business. So content and media lessons from a guy doing it at a really high level in B2B. Can I. Can we give you two or three, you know, ideas you can, you can take back to your team? I get a lot of messages, people saying, like, hey, I listen to your episode with George from Ramp, and I shared it across the team. And so, like, usually people are sharing these things, so we're going to talk through, through that lens. Okay.
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C
Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me.
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B
Okay, first, just tee us up. Like, what is your role? What is your purview at HubSpot? What does VP of Content and Media do? I think you said something like there's 70 people on the team. People nerd out on that stuff. Just like your kind of org chart.
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C
Yeah, yeah. So I run a media company within a software company. And you're right, you know, it's roughly 70 folks. But what we do is we create content across multiple different formats and channels that get HubSpot and our stories in front of 50 million people every single month and convert tens of thousands of them into new leads and ultimately MQLs for our business. And we've been at it now for five years. But obviously before that, we were very much invested in the inbound SEO game. And luckily, you know, we had started to hedge against just so much over reliance on search. And we're investing in creators and podcasts and YouTube and really over the last three years have been just like tripling down on how can we just reach audiences across more touch points where they are as opposed to just being so, so over reliant on Google.
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B
So at the beginning of that, that's a great, good overview that's helpful. At the beginning of that, you said the first line got me. You said I run a media company inside of a software company. What is it about that framing that makes this different than say a marketing team having a couple people on a content team? And how has that changed how you operate and what you're supposed to do?
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C
Yeah, I mean I think media companies always think about creating content that provides entertainment and value for audiences. And I think oftentimes marketing teams that do content think about product stories and think about it as being product marketing or brand marketing, which I feel like is just a completely different approach to editorial and content and one I think serves a really important need. But like think about how you engage with content on Instagram or YouTube. You're probably not reading and watching or listening to product marketing stories. You're probably, you know, watching the exit vibe pod or marketing as the grain or my first million or starter story. And those are oftentimes very much journalistic, heavily researched but entertaining and high value stories that allow us to engage audiences but then ultimately convert them into new customers for.
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B
Well, it's like, let me, let me translate. It's like they work. This is always the, like the, the thing that, that's hard about being a marketer. It's like the things that work as a consumer. Yeah, I listen to my first million waiver. Okay, that's, that's separate. It's a separate thing that. But then if you bring them inside of the company then they have to
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be a demand gen channel and they
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have to produce, you know, X number of leads directly from the, that show. And so everything gets kind of measured differently and like that's where this all breaks down. It's like we all, we all see the content that we react to personally, but I think for a lot of people listening, it's hard to take that and then you know, convince our bosses that like this should be our approach to content versus gating everything, right?
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C
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think there's a balance to strike, right? Like, like you can't go completely in one direction or completely another direction. Otherwise it doesn't make any business sense or doesn't actually get any scale. But I think the balance, and this is like a, you know, quote from, from our founders, you know, Dharmesh and Brian is like, you want to give value before extracting value. And that's kind of how we think about all content that we create is like, how can we give you something that allows you to do your job better or learn to excel in your career in ways that previously would have been possible for you, and then ask you to do something for us, which is oftentimes becoming a lead. And so it's definitely like a strategic North Star for every single approach to content that we do across all channels.
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B
Okay, so let's talk about the mechanics of this, of the media company. I'm curious, like, what roles and motions and functions? How does the machine work?
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C
Yeah, so it's structured not too dissimilar from a B2C media company that you have a content division. And so that's your video producers, writers, editors, podcast hosts, on screen, on air talent. You have a monetization engine. So they're creating all the lead magnets, the reports, the agents, the skills, the things that ultimately we convert people around to pull them into our funnel and do a lot of conversion rate optimization and ad trafficking. They have an audience development team and that's effectively a marketing team within our media organization that's responsible for growing our channels around our brands, both paid and organic media partnerships, syndication, but also our creator network, which about 150 creators, business subject matter experts across sales, entrepreneurship, AI marketing that we partner with in a bunch of different ways, be it creating original content together, straight up sponsorships or in some cases acquisitions, but that's kind of how it's built. And again, roughly 70 people with an emphasis on content.
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So now.
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So is it kind of like the shift is like from, from back in the day used to be like there was the HubSpot blog and a bunch of people wrote for the blog and that was the main traffic driver is now the model. You have 150 creators. Those are the people that are making the content. And your team is behind the scenes booking the guests, editing the clips. Is it, is it, is that it?
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C
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely part of it. And so you're right. You know, I think the thing that you're kind of pulling out is that in the old world there were these sort of corporate blogs that, you know, you would run the SEO game and pump out hundreds of pieces of content and rank and get a traffic. And I think part of the shift that we're all seeing is that people no longer want to hear from these kind of like voiceless brands. They want to hear more directly from like you. Right. And so they're seeking out folks that are sources of trust, experts in their field, and want to hear directly from them and be inspired by them. And so it's a big part of, like, how we partner with creators, but also how we think about the content we produce ourselves and the people that we put on Scream. So when we're partnering with creators, for example, you're right. We're oftentimes booking them, working with them collaboratively on content creation, lead magnets, bringing them out to Unbound, which is our physical event in Boston every year, and in some cases, clipping that content and helping them do things that they can't do as a solopreneur. Right. Like a solopreneur. It's like, it's just you, you know, like, you don't have the capital, you don't have the distribution, you don't have the IRL experience as an opportunity to speak. You don't have the clipping engine. That's a big part of what I think creators see as a value add for our partnerships.
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B
Yeah, I think it's interesting because it's not just that you have people host a guest webinar every now and then. You've literally kind of blanketed. You've created this network to reach lots of different people in your target market by aggregating creators together. And I think it's an interesting model where even if you're at a smaller company, it used to be like you have to have the company blog and the company podcast. But, like, let's say you, you know, you, you make you sell to accounting or that's a bad example that there. I don't know how long that.
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C
I'm sure there's some good accounting creators out there.
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B
I don't, I don't know how long that's going to be around.
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C
It's not my cup of tea, but I'm sure they're out there.
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B
Yeah, you sell to HR if you, you know, you sell into hr. Right? Like, you could now find people that are creating content around HR and like, make them part of your creator mob, as opposed to, like, who are we gonna find in house to. To be able to do this? And I don't know if you know the, the guys from ClickUp at all, but Chris, who runs, like, their social, he was on my podcast recently and he had a great example of just like, people are often like, how do I find a creator? Yeah, cool, easy. You have a roster. If you bank account, like, Cup Spot. How do I find creators? Chris was like, I go to my for you page and I look at someone whose video is like funny and kind of popped off a little bit. But I might, they might see a video that has a million views, but I go to their account and they only have like, you know, 6,000 followers. He's like, I reach out to them and I'm like, hey, would you do a one month contract with us and make five videos about, you know, HR for us? It's like those things are applicable. I think it's cool to riff on some of that.
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C
Yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean it's like the old build partner buy conundrum. It's like, sure, you could build it, you could spend 18 months trying to build it and you probably should build it in parallel. But that can't be your only strategy. Otherwise you lose 18 months you can partner with.
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B
I think it's such a, it's a blocking point for so many people to be like, who's the creator going to be like, who is the perfect dream creator?
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You know?
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C
Yeah, no, no, exactly. I mean, and there's like great tools out there that are just like really cheap. Allow you to, to use, you know, natural language search to be able to find people that like fit your ICP or in your category.
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B
What's one? People always ask me that actually. What's it, what, what's a tool?
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C
Passion fruit. Passion fruit is a good one. You know, passion fruit is spelled F R O T. I mean that you can just go in there and set thresholds for price, size, category, et cetera, do look likes and find those folks that, you know, maybe not my might not be like 500,000 subs or followers, but are like 10,000, 5,000. And that's probably actually more impactful like working with those like nano creators than working with those larger creators.
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B
If you're somebody listening to this, how do we paint the like landscape from what are we trying to get people to do? Is it like it used to be? Drive everyone to your website so you can get a bunch of traffic there, you know, cookie them, do that whole play. But so many of your channels now are podcast video. So how can we, how can we frame the strategy?
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C
Yeah, I think in the old world content was kind of seen as two things. One was like it was a demand driver, right? It's like you kind of like did your search analysis, got the MSV for keywords, reverse engineered the content and then put it out in the world. And then there was kind of like the sort of thought leadership content stream which maybe got a couple Clicks and was more just like your CEO talking about whatever they wanted to talk about.
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B
You'd get a guest column. A big win would be like getting a guest column for your CEO in like Inc. Magazine or something, you know.
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C
Yeah, something like that you were probably paying for, right? Or something like that. How we think about content today is kind of threefold. One, it's still a demand driver, right? Like it still has to do short term business for the business. And we've gotten really good at building out that monetization motion and being able to create content influenced by YouTube search trends, Google search trends, AI search trends, to be able to put our best foot forward and reach like the highest quality, highest intent audience.
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B
I'll make a note to come back to. I want to talk about measurements separately. So you're on this good rift. Like there's these three, three content, three, three kind of buckets there. So it has to be a demand. It has to be a demand driver.
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C
Yeah, yeah. Demand Gen1 is influence play, right. So like if you think about the current buying cycle, right, it's longer than ever. Oftentimes there's like six to seven decision makers in the room and there's about 29 steps. I think that was like the latest Kantar research, right. So like it's, it's a lot more convoluted than ever before. And so in order to actually stay top of mind and be part of their day one list, you have to be in their feeds nonstop, consistently, you know, for the 95% of the year when they're not in the market to buy our CRM. And so being able to sort of COVID as much surface area as possible at the top of the funnel is equally as important as generating immediate demand. And then there's this sort of like middle tier where it's like, can you generate inventory that is compounding over time but something that you're not having to buy. Right. So we call it, I'm kind of thinking about this as like equivalent value, right? So like you are being able to, through your media investments generate organic impressions that otherwise your Dr. PayMed team would have had to buy. And there's a value to that.
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B
Right, I get it. And then I think it's important to hear you say that content out of
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the gate, it has to drive demand.
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B
I think that whenever we talk about
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doing the fun stuff, brand content influencers,
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B
I think it's easy to get lost in the clouds a little bit. And it's like at the end of the day, if you're Part of a company and you're part of the marketing team in a company. Your job is to sell things for that company. That's what the marketing team is employed to do. And so the content ultimately has to sell things. Yes, but we, we often conflate like having to sell things with being shitty.
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C
Yeah. Yeah. Having to be boring and having to kind of have like a, like a bunch of talking points to be able to like sell a product. I think that's kind of where it.
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B
Yeah. Or like it has to be a gated white paper type of thing or it has to be so perfectly direct response, measurable when like. I don't know. I, I was trying to pull this up while you were, while you were talking earlier. But like even just the ability. So, so on the, on the influence or just being relevant play, you're not a Bravo guy, as we, as we've learned. But HubSpot, you hopped right on this, the whole summer house drama and snagged Kyle Cook to be the spokesperson for the HubSpot AEO launch. You know, it's like things like that I love. And I think that's an example of like, you, you did something creative. Yes.
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C
You, like, you just gotta be part of the conversation. You gotta be part of the conversation and it's harder to measure sometimes. Right.
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B
And you're gonna need to do more of that stuff now.
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C
You have to 100% because everyone else is playing the other game. Right. Everyone else is trying to find efficiency gains through AI and that's obviously important. And as a result, they're kind of sacrificing marketing for the sake of marketing and being part of the zeitgeist and fishing where the fish are. I just think you'll probably see a lot more of that, hopefully from us and more marketing teams.
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B
And to anyone listening saying, wow, they have the budget to do that. Well, I had Ryan, who's a VP of marketing at Rippling On a couple months ago, and we were talking about scrappy ideas and he's like, what? You know, one of our best performing pieces of content has been right now. We were doing a webinar with someone at an HR at Hines Ketchup, and our content team, like went down to the street on New York, filmed a silly little promo video like getting a hot dog with Hein's ketchup. And we trimmed that like the organic post popped off. And then we put paid behind that. And it's like that this is what the content team of the future needs to be doing. It's Being plugged in to social and trends. It's not just the long form stuff.
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C
No, no, no, no, not at all. I think we talked a little bit about that the other night too, where content isn't just this nicely packaged long form 16 minute episode. It's. I mean, we're seeing a lot more value these days is from the clipping of it all. And so whenever we think about that approach, it's like on a monthly basis we're producing 95 long form videos across 17 YouTube channels. But those 90 plus videos are turning into thousands of short form clips that then flood the zone across Instagram and X and LinkedIn and IG, which again, kind of help you stay top of mind for audiences that maybe aren't watching the long form, but are just getting the clips from their preferred social network.
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B
Let's talk a little bit about measurement. So if you're active around all these different touch points, like, okay, I got a show, I got a YouTube channel, I got a podcast, I got ads, I got videos. How do you answer the, the measurement question? You know, I, I know you got to go stand up in front of, I don't know if you have to do it, but somebody has to. Somebody has to stand up in front of Yamini at HubSpot and be like, here's why we do all that YouTube stuff. Like, here's how, why we have all these creators. How do you talk about it at that level?
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C
Someone asked me this like at a thing the other day and my response is like, you have to come prepared with the business rationale and the thesis and the measurement plan. Like even if you don't have it perfect, like you have to have a point of view on that. And so how we've historically thought about it has been very much leads driven, right? As like first a leading indicator of what's working and what's not, but then ultimately a metric that we can easily optimize against, right? Because it's like immediate, you know, how to like interpret that data and use that to inform subsequent content you're producing. But over the time we've gotten a lot better at just measuring further down funnel. So from a lead to a QL to a net customer ad, to MRR to lifetime value, et cetera, et cetera. And having like a pretty good point of view on that, even though it's not exact science and can sometimes be a bit more inferred, but then also the brand value, right? Like to go out and buy 50 million impressions or 60 million impressions every single month. Like that's not an insignificant amount of cash. Right. But we generate that organically through our program and headcount investments, and that compounds over time that continues to scale. And so, you know, being able to understand, like, how does that influence awareness, attribution, intent to buy, favorability of your brand and being able to have a point of view on that aspect of it. And then the thing we talked about a second ago is like equivalent value, like you could go out and buy that or you could invest in media and have it compound over time what are the effective cost savings as a result of, of building out your content strategy. And so that's how we sort of package it and present it back. And I think it makes sense. And I think you're starting to see more media teams operate that way.
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B
That's a good one for you. Listen, I know I get a ton of messages, you know, emails, whatever about whenever we talk about content, it's always like, okay, yeah, great, but how do I, how do I tell the measurement story? And I like how you CFOs and the CEO, they like when you can quantify, when you can name something and quantify, like when you're comparing it, if you don't have this perfect attribution on it, but you're giving it a comparison to some dollars we could have spent X and we basically got this for free, you know, if they don't think about the headcount and all that stuff.
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C
Yeah, the. Yeah, the cost savings. Yeah, exactly.
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B
I like thinking about that. But okay, so, but if you do that. So we believe in that. We want to get reach, we want to get awareness that, you know, that would have. We got 50 million impressions. But it all has to go somewhere. And I, I listen to some podcasts. I hear it seems like your play is like you have these HubSpot offers. So all of the creators and content, they're not all driving back to the website, although you get some brand affinity down the load. But you are trying to drive all these content channels and creators back to an offer of some kind, aren't you?
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C
Yeah, yeah. So there's a couple of ways that we derive business value from that from like a user experience perspective. One is like, you're right, there is HubSpot brand attribution all throughout. It's in title sequence, watermark on the channel are in the description and the end card, et cetera. But also what you're describing is the sort of monetization motion, which is a lead magnet motion, just to be kind of like, just reductive about it. But we're creating offers, like, oftentimes in collaboration with guests or with creators.
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B
So here's what people want to know with this. They don't care. Reductive or not, is it working? Like, are we happy? That's all that matters?
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C
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't working. And so it's definitely working because I think it's important. We.
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B
We love to listen to marketing stuff and we, you know, we judge, like, what's right or wrong. And I. My job is to be like, let's talk to somebody who's doing this. And like, from inside the walls of the company, like, we're doing this. Hey, this is working and we're doing it. And I would assume you can have whatever opinion you want about doing offers or not, but if they're working, is that the whole game?
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C
Yeah, it's working. Asterisk Mark. Right. Which I think it's like, it's working, but it's evolved, I would say, like, over the last 24 months. Just, like people's expectation of value that they're getting from those types of content has dramatically evolved from a place where, you know, when's the last time you downloaded, like, a state of X report? Like, no one wants those PDFs anymore. They want, like, immediate value. And sometimes those work. Right? I'm not saying, like, they go away, but I am saying that, like, the diversity of offer types has. Has expanded over time. No, it's good.
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B
I. I'm sure someone listened to the last two minutes. It was like, oh, Dave just. Dave's big, A big fan of offers. Like, what, What a surprise. But I. But also, no. To hear you say, like, yes, they're working, but they need to evolve. Is. Is like, well, yeah, yeah.
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C
Because I feel like information has just become commodified and what people really want is immediate results, like, immediate value.
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B
Yeah. I was looking up something the other day from a Huberman podcast, and I was like, I just googled it and there's like, some other site that aggregates his stuff. And the transcript. I wanted the transcript from it. And the transcript was just there. And it's like, but you're gonna gate some, like, you know, wimpy little thing just to get an email? It has to be executed in a right way to still work.
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C
I feel like, yeah, it has to be executed in a right way to work. But also, I mean, just think about your own, like, video viewing behavior. Like, what's gonna cause you to Press pause, click on that link, go to another website and like, engage with an offer. And so what we found is that the things that get you closer to the outcome that you are trying to achieve or accomplish are the things that convert best. So oftentimes those are dynamic micro apps or agents or cloud skills or even just basic raw Google sheets, things that just. You can just start to extract as much value as possible out of it without having to read through the PDF and then interpret it yourself. And so that's why I say they work asterisk Mark. Because they work. They just work differently.
- [26:02]
B
Yeah, okay, that. That makes sense. And then what do you say to. How do you measure, like, the creator side of like the part the. If you work with a creator? Because I want to think about, you know, VP of marketing who's doing this and they have their own, own channels, you know, podcast, video, content, whatever. But they're increasingly being asked to look into influencers and just curious, 150 of them. I'm sure you've learned some lessons. We talked a little bit about selecting someone earlier. You shared a site. But just as far as, like, what works with a creator, what should they share? If you're doing a partnership with someone, any best practices you've learned?
- [26:40]
C
Yeah, I mean, I'll start with like, the things not to do.
- [26:42]
B
That's actually better.
- [26:43]
C
Yeah, I think it's better just because, like, those third rails are important. Because I think everyone kind of approaches creators the same way. And I've kind of found, like, the things that don't work, like, thinking about it as a transaction, like, I realized that there is money changing hands in a lot of cases. But at the same time, we found that collaborating with them, letting them write the script, co creating the offer with them, which is how we monetize creators and doing things that they know are actually going to work with their audience. Oftentimes, nine times out of ten, right. Converts better. Which maybe seems like a no duh thing to say, but it's just like, I can't tell you how many times I've seen executions where it's like, logo slap, here's a script, read it live, and you just don't get any value from it.
- [27:25]
B
Yeah, or I get, I get a lot of inbound. I get a lot of like, messages. And it's like, hey, you know, I'm with XYZ Company. There's a product launch on, you know, July 1st. Tell us what your rate is. Tell us how many impressions you're going to get. Here's what to post and here's when to post it. And I'm like, that just seems like a waste of money versus the real opportunity. Maybe that's just like, you know, free reach or something like. Or we have to pay for it. But like it's, it's just easy. It's just distributing the message. But it seems like there's almost. The meta content lesson is here. Like if you really wanted to do something, you almost have to spend more time on it, work harder on it, collaborate on it. Like at a deeper level, right? Hey, it's me, Dave.
- [28:04]
A
Our friends over at Customer I.O. are sponsors of today's episode. They're a really cool company that helps marketers turn first party data into engaging customer experiences across email, SMS and push. And they built their platform for marketers who actually care about the craft. Because marketing is a craft that takes creativity, thought and taste. Right now, everyone thinks they're magically a
- [28:24]
B
marketer because they have access to AI
- [28:26]
A
and the result is kind of painful. More robotic emails, more noise, more bleh. AI isn't magic. It's not going to fix bad strategy or write great copy for you magically. But the best teams also aren't ignoring it. They treat AI as infrastructure. When it's built the right way, it actually makes marketing feel more human, not less. And that's what Customer IO is doing. Their AI handles repetitive work like setup, orchestration and tasks that should be automated so that you can focus on what actually matters. The craft of marketing strategy, the creativity. This is how good marketers are using AI right now. Not to replace thinking, but to support it. If this landed with you at all, this idea about the craft of marketing,
- [29:04]
B
I want you to go and check out Customer IO.
- [29:06]
A
It's Customer IO, Exit five. Go and check them out. Customer IO, Exit five. Hey, it's Dave. Look, I want to tell you about Drive 2026. This is our annual event we do for the Exit 5 community. It's a two day B2B marketing conference in Media Social Stove, Vermont. We built it for marketers who want to get smarter and actually connect with their peers. This isn't a generic industry conference. It's a small, intentionally designed event where the programming, the venue and the schedule all work together to create the conditions for real conversations. Attendees spend two days getting into the tactical details of B2B marketing, what's working, what's not, and how the best teams are thinking about the problems that actually matter. This is all about workshops, sessions and discussions that are built around participation, not passive listening. I want you to actually come and be there. If you're going to take the time to leave your family, leave the office, get outside of work, like actually be, be here, take notes, pay attention. It makes it all worth it. And here's the thing though, the B2B marketing stuff, that's what's going to get you to justify the ROI on your ticket. That's why you're going to be able to tell your boss that you want
- [30:03]
B
to go to this.
- [30:03]
A
But the best moments at Drive don't happen on stage. They happen at breakfast, on an afternoon hike, over a drink, after dinner.
- [30:10]
C
Right?
- [30:10]
A
Somebody's going to be roasting marshmallows at this place. It's that type of event. We designed this for, for this connection. This is on purpose. Long breaks, unhurried meals and opt in activities where people spend time together outside the session room. Because look, we're all people. Where else in your life can you talk to someone else who understands your
- [30:27]
B
job as a B2B marketer?
- [30:29]
A
I go to my kids swim lessons. I can't sit there and talk to dad next to me about B2B marketing. But you can through the Exit 5 community. And that's what drive is all about. It's September 8th through 10th, 2026 at the Lodge. It's Bruce Peak in Stowe, Vermont. Check it out, exit5.com drive to learn more about it. It's exit5.com drive and I hope to see you there.
- [30:49]
C
Yeah, look, I mean work harder. And also just like trust me that the creator knows their audience better than you do. And so I think like, I mean that's how we always approach it. And what we found is that by approaching it that way, I mean creators enjoy that partnership better because they're not just having to like phone it in whenever they're executing. But also it allows us to do deeper partnerships with them, do bundle buys with them, which oftentimes we can then negotiate discounted rates because we're buying more upfront as a result and we lock in at a certain cpm so like as their rates increase, ours don't. And then we just have like better data sets that way. Like if we do more than like one rep, then we see like what works, what doesn't, if we want to go deeper with them for a longer period of time. And so that's how we've approached it. It is a bit more kind of like hands on and methodical. But I found that just like the ROI you get from that approach is much more significant than Just the kind of like transactional, like here's the check, read this thing for me approach.
- [31:45]
B
Yeah. And have you learned any lessons on the frequency of that? You mentioned bundling, but bundling obviously gives you a price advantage. But even just in our, you know, our small little business, we've, we've learned that the longer we can work with someone. So if it's like over the course, if it's X number of posts or reach or whatever, you know, over three to six months, it's, it's the repetition that delivers the best result for the, for the company. It's very, especially to your, to our point about like B2B, if it's a one off post. I used to do these like two or three years ago and they just didn't make any sense anymore. One off posts, posts with an offer and then this, you know, they're like, what the heck? This only drove two leads. And I'm like, well, this is B2B. Let's do it. Let's do a longer thing together. Three to six months, multiple goes around. Like there seems to be a frequency
- [32:32]
C
lesson and you just don't know off of one hit. I mean the first hit could be a dud. I find that all the time. Like it happens all the time. And that's why I love the idea of like bundles. And to your point, like frequency is really important. Like it's not like, hey, every single week do this thing. Because I feel like then you start to get fatigue. But we do typically staggered out one per month just to kind of like give the audience some breathing room and you know, again, like make sure that we're hedging against like that first video, maybe not necessarily being the video. And we have two more bites at the apple.
- [32:59]
B
How do you give your team creative freedom? Because a lot of what you're gonna, what you're doing now is disrupting the kind of old way of doing content you need to. And just social and content in general is a lot about, we gotta do a lot of stuff and we're not sure what's gonna land. I'm just curious as to how that plays into your team and you know, shipping new work and shipping new ideas.
- [33:18]
C
I think the term like creative freedom can't be mistaken for just like no strategy. Because what I think about, when I
- [33:25]
B
think about that's a put that on a bumper sticker for the creatives. Where are my creatives at?
- [33:31]
C
Well, well, yeah, I mean, I gotta be careful sometimes because I say editorial independence, I say creative freedom. And What I mean by that is we bring people over to HubSpot Media from awesome publisher brands like the Onion, Axios, bi, the Information, Conde Nast. Like, they know what they're doing. So for you to come here and me to say, this is how you're going to write, this is how you're going to produce, this is how you're going to edit, why did you hire that person in the first place? But giving them kind of like guardrails, like creative guardrails, like, hey, look, this is the audience. This is what we know about, this is what she likes, this is what she doesn't like. These are the products that we're selling, these are the content verticals we sit within. Like, giving them those creative parameters. Oftentimes they thrive better with those types, like, creative constraints. But it's very similar.
- [34:19]
B
Who feeds that? Where does that come from, by the way? Is that fed to you by, like, another team who owns that?
- [34:24]
C
Yeah, so we generate that at a marketing level and a business level where we have our Persona, we build a taste profile around her and we understand, like, emotional triggers, likes, dislikes, and then we use that to inform all forms of marketing, including our content production.
- [34:39]
B
Got it. Okay, cool. So then the company's working off that same sheet of music, and then you're the media and content team, you're going to use that to then go and just, you know, those are the guardrails for what you create.
- [34:49]
C
Yeah, I mean, it's exactly. Yeah, I mean, exactly. It's like we are taking that, we're interpreting it and we're using our own creative lenses to be able to do that in a way that actually reaches audiences and gets them to getting engaged.
- [35:01]
B
How much time is, like, carved out to test new shit? Like, I feel like in this role, you got to be. Whether it was like, you know, five years ago, being the first, you know, early on making videos on TikTok, like, is there some secret team over there that's like doing stuff in the basement? Like, how do you do that?
- [35:17]
C
No, I mean, that's the expectation of every team, to be honest with you. Like, that's how we operate. Every team, for the most part now runs in Sprint models where they identify an outcome, a problem they want to solve for a big idea they bring together.
- [35:29]
B
Like, what. What would it. What's an example of something maybe you've done recently that you could. You could say.
- [35:33]
C
Yeah, so a good example is clipping. Like, we were talking about it a little while ago. Clipping for us has become a Huge top of the funnel unlock. Historically, clipping can be kind of a manual process. You know, there's a lot of handoff. It's like you have to know the full episode, the right time codes, the good hooks, the. Then you have to hand it off to an editor who knows Premiere and they cut it up, and then, you know, hand it off to a channel manager, and it's like a bunch of. A bunch of handoffs. But we said, okay, like, surely there's a better way of doing this. Obviously, clipping is like the conversation on X right now. So people are figuring it out.
- [36:07]
B
Wait, hold on.
- [36:07]
C
This.
- [36:07]
B
You'll appreciate this. This is funny. Like, so the reason for Forever. So I always take notes during this podcast and the main reason why is because, like, I mark timestamps down or things that happen to inform, and it's like, I'm in the Stone Ages over here.
- [36:21]
C
Well, hey, we got a solution for you, Dave. Yeah, I know.
- [36:24]
B
Yeah, right?
- [36:26]
C
Yeah, so it was a problem, you know, like wild inefficiencies. We know there's AI leverage that's being left on the table within the middle part of that production motion. So how can we crack it? And so we put together a SWAT team of Pat and Sam from Starter Story, who are a recent acquisition of ours and have built out a similar system. Folks from different parts of our video ARM and a couple of folks from our audience development team, and within six weeks built out a full stack AI automated clipping engine that takes a long form piece of content, has been trained up on what great looks like from a clipping perspective, plucks out those time codes using Claude, hands it off through the Descript API, a descript, which is a natural language editor. The channel manager has been trained up on that. They go in there, they're like, this one's good, this one's bad, this one's good. And then using human judgment and taste, they like, you know what? Like, maybe the hook is better here, or maybe like, this wording doesn't work, or it should start here and they just press, publish. And the engine is creating the subs, it's creating the captions for you, it's pulling out the clips. And something that would have taken day, a couple days, whatever, now takes minutes for that person and has allowed us to unlock a tremendous amount of clipping output that was just, like, frankly, out of reach before, and that was from that, like, Sprint model. And so, like, this is the kind of, like, approach that we encourage our teams to operate with. And, well, I'd like that's a good.
- [37:47]
B
First of all, it's a great tactical example for, for our little newsletter. We'll, we'll clip that. Speaking of clips. So that, that's a great specific example because I can see in my head as you're talking about that the role of the human and the role of the AI. And I see that in a positive light. I'm like, no, actually the human. I'd rather be the human being. Like, bring me. Come here, you little minions. Bring me. Show me the clips. Show me the clips. I'll decide, you know, come here, robots.
- [38:10]
C
Fair enough.
- [38:12]
B
Like you show me the clips, I'm going to decide. And then who owns building that is like, how do you make the infrastructure of that?
- [38:18]
C
Yeah. So we have an AI engineer on our team who's working with a lot
- [38:22]
B
of just on the whole team, like one AI engineer on the like media team.
- [38:26]
C
One AI engineer on the team. But here's the thing, is that like a lot of these folks are already AI natives. I mean, like, if you talk to Pat, it's like he's already on cloud code. He's the one that's like building it, staging it, vibe coding. And a lot of folks already just do this instinctively. And the AI engineer is there for like just things that truly are beyond people's technical pay grades.
- [38:46]
B
Well, Pat, I mean, so you're just saying like, oh, that's just Pat. Well, Pat's like built a, you know, almost a million subscriber YouTube channel on his own and this guy loves his craft and sweats it. So I don't want to like, well, if Pat can do it, like that's. But that's true. You find someone who's created this system and then see how we can replicate that for your whole team. That's a cool example of AI enablement. That's not just like, you know, mass producing blog post slop.
- [39:11]
C
Nice.
- [39:12]
B
Two points for you.
- [39:14]
C
Yeah. Which is not the strategy anybody should be following.
- [39:16]
B
Okay, so that. Cool. That's a good example. So basically you have, and you mentioned you run in, you run in sprints. Like, I'm just curious to how, how do you operate monthly, quarterly, how does the team figure out what to go work on?
- [39:29]
C
Yeah. So all of our different team managers are responsible for planning and managing their other sprint roadmap. And we coordinate that at a media wide level. But really the empowerment comes at the manager level. And they're working with their ICs to define what are the things that are tripping us up. What are the big outcomes, the big bets we want to take. And then let's assemble a SWAT team of really smart people, cross functional people to be able to solve that in a six week sprint. And so it is a little bit asynchronous in that like it's not happening on like a monthly basis, quarterly basis. Like we're kind of planning this on a weekly basis at this point, but for the most part it's allowed us to just move a lot faster and just minimize.
- [40:11]
B
Is this a new thing? A newer, newer implemented thing, Whatever I'm
- [40:16]
C
trying to say, yeah, yeah. So a lot of our teams have been operating in a similar thing. We just haven't been calling it, you know, a sprint until now. But it's a new operating system that, you know, we've been rolling out across marketing that's really inspired by, you know, a new product playbook that we built called Loop marketing here at HubSpot, which is just, you know, how to be able to effectively do and build marketing teams. In the AI era, when the top of the funnel is, you know, expanded and fragmented, the middle funnel has contracted and everyone's still running the old playbook that's no longer working.
- [40:47]
B
So I like this idea of just of doing a sprint, a six week sprint. How do you decide what's sprint worthy? Like obviously you got to, you know, you got to brush your teeth, you got to floss, you got to do all the day to day stuff. But is this Sprint like a bigger project like that you said is a
- [41:03]
A
big goal to go work after?
- [41:05]
C
Yeah, there's the hygiene stuff. You're right. There's kind of like the, like the always on thing, you know, like we're publishing a hustle newsletter every single day. We're publishing a mindstream newsletter every single day. But there are things that oftentimes whenever you get in this sort of motion of like doing a thing every single day where you don't really feel like you, you can come up for air and focus on the next step, function of growth or change for the thing that you're working on. And so this, I kind of see it as like the catalyst for us to sort of like take a step back and say, okay, well actually, you know what, like 250,000 subs on mindstream not enough. We wanted to get to 500,000. What's the strategy for just like taking that next step, function change? And while we're not going to get the 500,000 in six weeks, we're going to have a strategy for that next evolutionary phase of that newsletter product. And so it really is like the bigger bets, the bigger outcomes that just like, are maybe currently not a priority or just big problems that need to be solved.
- [41:59]
B
I like that because I feel like, I mean, I do this with our list with Dan and I are always like setting goals around it. And it's like, okay, this year we want to grow from X to Y. And then it's kind of like throughout the course of the year, you're supposed to make these improvements. But the real big swings, if you really want to get to a big goal, you almost, you have to take bigger swings. And so if you're forced to say, hey, we want to go from 250 to 500 in six weeks, what would that look like? What do we need to do? It just forces a different thinking exercise.
- [42:24]
C
100%. It's a 14 function. Also, you know, it also forces you to say, like, all right, you know, what are the omissions that I'm going to make to be able to like, actually like lock in and do this thing that. I know it might be like a little hard and painful in the beginning, but it's going to get me to where I need to go to continue to grow my product. And so we roll that out across the entire marketing team. And, you know, I started to see some really cool results out of it.
- [42:46]
B
How does your team talk to you about results?
- [42:50]
C
Yeah, you know, it's oftentimes through the lens of those three different buckets we talked about before. Historically, it's been very demand gen focused. So all of our channels, all of our media products have demand goals that roll up into a larger marketing demand number that then obviously back into overall customer and revenue growth for the organization. And so we all have numbers that we need to hit. But it's also evolved. I think whenever I came in, it was maybe very kind of like top of the funnel impressions based. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Come on, we really got to prove our worth and actually get into how is this actually driving business for the business? And so we kind of like over index for demand gen. I think now we're kind of like swinging back to the middle where demand gen super important. Everyone still has those goals and we'll have those goals going forward. But how do we value and optimize against the things that are maybe harder to back into a revenue number but we know are important from a brand awareness and consideration perspective.
- [43:45]
B
What are you hiring for right now? So somebody that wants to work in content, media, creative if, if they're listening to this podcast and they're one of those people and thinking about their career, if they want to, you know, grow up to be like you and, and run a media, run a media company inside of a software company or a media company on their own, what type of person is that right now? What do they, what are you looking for?
- [44:06]
C
Yeah, well, I think just from like a cultural and skills perspective, it's just people that move fast, are AI native and are open to like experimentation and taking big risks from a skill set perspective. Like it very much is becoming more great producer editors on the video front. Like people that know how to outline, script, pitch, produce, host, edit, like full stack, end to end without having to really rely on a lot of handoffs. And that's like what the video profile has become, I would say in the last like 10 years.
- [44:40]
B
How do you test for that? Any lessons learned? You can attract the Conde Nast folks, but someone who's maybe at a smaller company that's listening to this, that's like, yeah, I want a type of person with that. But how do, how do you find them?
- [44:51]
C
Yeah, I mean a lot of it comes out in the interview process, but then also in the kind of like skills test process, like hey, like do a thing for me or hey, show me some examples of what you've done and like how you thought about where the idea came from, how you scripted it for the best hooks and the best structure and then how you approach the production of it and then the editing of it to understand like, do they actually know what they're talking about? But we found like a lot of folks that work at mostly kind of like nicher modern media companies fit that profile and audience development, like I think audience development is just one of those kind of like, it's more I find like, like a B2C media term, but I've tried to co opt it for B2B media, which is like audience development.
- [45:37]
B
What is that, like a fancy word for demand gen?
- [45:40]
C
More like a fancy word for marketing. But that's kind of how like media folks think about it.
- [45:43]
B
That's. See you got to take that, bring that to the cfo. Like we're doing some audience development right now.
- [45:48]
C
We're of audience development. Yeah, let me tell you about it. Already doing marketing, but here's audience development as well. Audience development as the name implies is like helping us generate more subscribers and more distribution for our content and our media brands, both organically and from a paid perspective. And you know, I think what I really appreciate from my time spent at traditional B2C like modern media companies is that. But like you don't really have any software budgets. It's kind of like, hey, here's like a hundred bucks and like a can of coke, like figure it out and you just gotta like growth, hack your way into it.
- [46:24]
B
And like, yeah, we have some founder, we have some like Facebook meta credits from the founder.
- [46:29]
C
Yeah, no, that's exactly it. It's like, hey, this person knows this person over YouTube, like why don't you talk to them? And so it's super scrappy, but it's always through the lens of like how do I just do it organically without having to rely on paid media. And so I'm trying to bring more of that into how we think about audience development through organic syndication, partnership, swaps, co creation with other creators of similar scale, things like that that don't always really require paid media budgets though the paid obviously allows you to become a lot more laser targeted on who you want to attract and ultimately convert into subscribers.
- [47:01]
B
Let's see, we're going to wrap in a minute, but what should I have asked you, you know, our audience, what's something about your job and what you're doing that I probably should have asked?
- [47:09]
C
Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean I think just kind of like digging more into how content teams should be thinking about AI. You know, I think there's kind of like the conflation of AI with it being the thing that is like putting people out of jobs or should be like the replacement for your content strategy. I mean we don't see it that way. Like we always see it as human from the idea and human from the human from the idea, human done implementation and publishing. But being able to use AI to solve for a lot of that messy middle of the production process. I'll give you a good example for video. For example, for the longest time, things like localization like taking video that was made in English speaking markets and making that relevant for international non English speaking markets required us to take the script, the outline, ship it to someone that knew how to do video in a different market, re record it and by then it's like two weeks later we
- [48:03]
B
had this guy like on the creative team at UiPath and they, they, he was on one of our webinars basically talking about how they, they did exactly this. They made all these localized video with like 11 labs and a bunch and he's like, this is an example of normally me as a creative person, you'd be saying like this, screw this thing. This is going to take our jobs. But he's like I wouldn't have been able to do this before and this is a cool, cool way to do that.
- [48:23]
C
No, yeah, I mean that's exactly it. Like hey Gen has been a, has been like an amazing unlock for us and has allowed us to really like jumpstart our YouTube strategy in markets like Latam and Doc in France. But I would say like the fidelity is getting really good. Like especially for Spanish, like less so for French and German where they're still kind of like, kind of like code switches a bit between like Quebecois and like European French. And like in Germany it's like Austrian German and German German.
- [48:51]
B
Are these like hey Gen Avatar videos?
- [48:54]
C
Yeah. Well, I mean it's the same people that had produced and hosted the original English speaking video have given their consent to be trained up on hey Jen and then are having their likeness recreated in a different language.
- [49:05]
B
Okay. So that, that use case feels good to me. Like there I could never get on with the like it's a full AI avatar doing our product marketing. But if it was based on a human, if it was based on Dave, we're going to make this available in French. I can, I'll support that. They'll donate.
- [49:22]
C
I mean, I mean it's been done in the movie industry for forever. Right. Like the dubbing approach, it's just like we're using a different technology to do it it. So that's how I think about it. But like that's just one good example. Like anybody today, if you have like any customers that are not English speaking markets, you just use a, use a low tier of hey Gen and then auto dub your content into different languages and you'll be good.
- [49:44]
B
I, I haven't changed my opinion on this this week. My AI opinion is changing daily based on who I talk to.
- [49:50]
C
What is it today?
- [49:51]
B
I forget where I heard this but someone was like the cat, like the cat is out the bag. Like there's no coming back now. There were these tools. We're never going to be able to like unwind what we have now. And so to not use them, you can make a fundamental stance and I don't care what you do, it's free country, do what you want. I, I mean for me like writing our newsletter with Claude. Here's a perfect example of you, of this, right. I love my little humor and wittiness and trying to sprinkle in personality in it. But what Claude is great at that. I'm not is I can give it this transcript and I can say, find me the. I want the three. I want like three bullets. Like the top three takeaways from my conversation with Jonathan. Give me those. Just all facts, no narrative, no opinion, just I just want it. And then now I have like the right ingredients and then I can go and write the newsletter. Like, that's an incredible way for me to write that I didn't have before.
- [50:40]
C
Yeah. And to arbitrarily kind of revert back to prehistoric times when you didn't have access to that. Right. Like insane.
- [50:47]
B
I'm choosing to use my quill, sir.
- [50:50]
C
I will flee. Okay, here's the door. It's really interesting. I mean, we do have a pretty good code of ethics for like how we think about and use AI across all our different media products, which we publish publicly and you know, really train up all of our content creators on just to sort of show like, where are those sort of like red lines of like how we're not going to use it and how we will use it, how you disclose it.
- [51:11]
B
That's interesting. I hear that as a podcast host and a business owner and I will like, oh, interesting. You have to have a policy and share with your audience with how you're going to use these things. That's interesting.
- [51:21]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because like, audience trust is the only thing you really have at the end of the day and you don't want to compromise that. But I'm optimistic about AI. I know that there's like a larger kind of like bit of a backlash. I still think like used for good and used in the right ways can create really great results. And I think like some of the things we talked about today are good examples of that.
- [51:40]
A
Where did that.
- [51:42]
B
Was that a company wide like champion Doc? Because I just, I feel like that's a good. Be a good guardrail for people listening to this that are using, you know, creating content and you know, using tools like that. I wonder how did you start that effort?
- [51:52]
C
Yeah, I mean, just from conversations that content teams, you know, because early on, like with most companies there wasn't necessarily a whole lot of guardrails for like how to use AI. So everyone's kind of experimenting with it, trying things, failing with it, succeeding with it. And there was frankly some stuff that just sounded bad, looked bad, read bad. And I think we just said we do need a set of expectations for our entire media team to how to approach the use of AI and when not to and how we think about the relationship between humans and AI. And then as a signal of trust to our audiences and our customers, publish that publicly. Just so anytime AI is being used for, like, research or for editing that, like, they know that there was some AI being leveraged for the production of that piece of content.
- [52:41]
B
Just says, just as always,
- [52:45]
C
yeah, this
- [52:45]
B
is a one page. Every time, every word. The worst thing to happen to me, honestly, I'm a terrible writer. I write like I talk, but it works. And I like em Dashes have always been my crutch. And then like a year or two ago, everyone's like, you. You're writing. I'm like, no, this is literally how I write.
- [53:02]
C
As a. As a creative writing major, I was like, I fucking love the undash. And now I'm just like, I can't use it. I can't use it. I can't use it. It's so annoying. And I'm like, this semicolon. It just doesn't feel right. None of it feels right.
- [53:13]
B
It doesn't feel right. Yeah.
- [53:14]
A
All right.
- [53:15]
B
Jonathan Hunt. I got a wrap. You got a wrap. You'll find Jonathan on on LinkedIn. Jonathan Hunt, VP of Media and Content at HubSpot. Thanks for listening to this episode. Been having a lot of fun lately doing the pod. It's summer here in Vermont. Thanks for all the messages and comments, and we'll see you on the next episode.
- [53:31]
C
All right.
- [53:35]
B
Hey, thanks for listening to this podcast. If you like this episode, you know what? I'm not even going to ask you
- [53:40]
A
to subscribe and leave a review, because
- [53:43]
B
I don't really care about that. I have something better for you.
- [53:45]
A
So we've built the number one private
- [53:47]
B
community for B2B marketers at Exit 5. And you can go and check that out. Instead of leaving a rating or review, go check it out right now on
- [53:54]
A
our website, Exit 5.
- [53:57]
B
Our mission at Exit 5 is to help you grow your career in B2B marketing. And there's no better place to do that than with us at exit 5. There's nearly 5,000 members now in our community. People are in there posting every day, asking questions about things like marketing, planning, ideas, inspiration, asking questions and getting feedback from your peers.
- [54:16]
A
Building your own network of marketers who
- [54:18]
B
are doing the same thing you are. So you can have a peer group or maybe just venture, venting about your boss when you need to get in there and get something off your chest. It's 100% free to join for seven days, so you can go and check it out risk free. And then there's a small annual fee to pay. If you want to become a member for the year, go check it out. Learn more exit5.com and I will see
- [54:37]
A
you over there in the community.