The Exit Five CMO Podcast

Episode: The Future of GTM and Sustainable Growth with Chris Walker, CEO at Passetto
Date: September 11, 2025
Host: Dave Gerhardt
Guest: Chris Walker

Overview

On this episode, Dave Gerhardt welcomes Chris Walker (CEO of Passetto and well-known voice in B2B marketing) for a candid, high-energy conversation. They dive deep into the future of go-to-market (GTM) strategy, sustainable growth versus "growth at all costs," AI's role in marketing, and how the function and expectations of CMOs are rapidly evolving. The pair also discuss the personal and strategic value of social presence, managing feedback, team structure, and the importance of creativity—layered with practical insights and memorable stories from Chris’s journey.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Seeing Trends Early & Handling Critics

[02:17], [04:47]

• Chris's ‘early not wrong’ mindset: Chris reflects on how his unique consulting role (~30-50 companies at a time) lets him see patterns years before others.
  • "People call me a contrarian…I really don't see it that way. I feel like I'm just reflecting the truth that people don't want to hear." — Chris Walker [02:17]
• On handling negative feedback: Chris accepts some pushback is due to lack of context or vested interests, and has a clear boundary: “There’s a difference between a debate … and being disrespectful. When people get disrespectful, it’s just an immediate block.” [05:56]

2. The Nuance of Marketing & Long-form vs. Short-form Content

[06:38], [08:01]

• Social media lacks nuance: Dave and Chris discuss how nuanced marketing is, but hot takes on LinkedIn rarely capture context, leading to misunderstandings.
  • "Sometimes I think the short-form stuff actually does a disservice ... if you took the time to listen to the whole thing, you would have a different perspective." — Dave Gerhardt [07:34]
• The need to “rethink the box” of marketing: Chris pushes for clearer marketing definitions; “there’s just too much thrown into one category.” [08:01]

3. The Power of Feedback Loops via Content & Community

[09:16], [13:06]

• Podcasting’s real ROI: Not just pipeline but real-time market insights. Podcasts, events, and social posts constant feedback for strategy, not just lead gen.
  • "The value of the podcast ... is not about pipeline ... the benefits are the objections, the real roadblocks people mention — you use that to shape product, org, even messaging." — Chris Walker [09:16]
• Testing at any audience size: Both started with small followings (“I had 900 followers in 2019... our first live event, 10 people showed up." — Chris Walker [14:43]). Feedback is impactful at all scales.

4. Creativity as a Process

[16:44], [17:02]

• Events as creative labs: Like stand-up comedians test material, marketers refine messaging in small group settings. Iconic catchphrases came from impromptu moments ("The MQL hamster wheel came out [from a random joke], it was the leading message … started sales convos." — Chris Walker [16:44]).

5. Major Shifts: From Growth-at-All-Costs to Sustainable Growth

[17:53], [19:44]

• The shift in GTM: Investors now value efficiency, not endless spending:
  • "The big macro shift is from growth at all costs into sustainable growth... we need every dollar to get $4 back, not $1." — Chris Walker [17:53]
• The “bubble” is over: Lower public SaaS multiples force new discipline; you can’t just spend and raise anymore.

6. The True Cost of Marketing and Attribution Messes

[22:09], [23:21]

• Attribution illusions: Marketing often celebrates misleading ROI metrics by isolating spend (“Google Ads has 3x ROAS” but excludes all other costs and activities).
  • "With multi-touch attribution, you can spend $7 and give all $7 credit for the same dollar of revenue... it costs seven times as much to get a customer." — Chris Walker [24:27]
• Solution: Finance needs to own and enforce ROI guardrails. Marketing shouldn’t self-police its performance.

7. Rethinking Marketing Org Structure

[31:25], [32:41]

• Separate functions: Too many conflicting responsibilities lumped together.
  • Chris suggests splitting marketing into “Strategy” (product marketing, comms, positioning, thought leadership) and “Pipeline Creation” (demand gen, supply chain, prospecting).
  • "The strategy side... if you get it right can 5x the growth rate. The other side is more quant, science — running ads and getting pipeline." — Chris Walker [32:41]

Organizational Recommendation

• Strategy: Analyst relations, comms, research, messaging, long-term value, etc.
• Pipeline Creation: Demand generation, optimizing funnel, prospecting, data/ops, direct ROI focus.
• Both require clear collaboration, but distinctly measured and staffed. [33:51–36:40]

8. Marketing Team Trends: Smaller, Nimbler, More Senior

[38:51], [40:11]

• “Smaller internal W2 fixed cost marketing teams”:
  • “I have customers with 4-person teams that output 100x better, faster work than 50-100 person teams…” — Chris Walker [39:03]
• AI as a superpower: Not just for content—reducing bottlenecks, empowering marketers to do more independently (e.g., make landing pages, write, launch). [40:10–40:51]
• Result: More budget for outside experts, programs, and flexible allocation when needed.

9. CMO & Marketing Leadership Evolution

[44:30], [45:22]

• CMOs should own the whole pipeline generation machine: Marketing must control demand gen, prospecting, and handoff—eliminating silos.
• Senior leaders need to “get back into execution,” not just sit in meetings.

10. Personal Productivity, Creative Process, and Career Advice

[47:53], [49:03], [50:50]

• Manager (meetings) vs. Maker (creation) schedule: Chris blocks Wednesdays and Fridays for deep work.
  • “If you have a meeting at 9 and another at 12, you don't get enough open flow to create anything.” — Chris Walker [47:53]
• Periodic, intentionally unplugged time: “Every 6 weeks I take a 3-4 day solo trip...I get a hundred days of productivity in a couple of hours when I get back.” [49:03]
• Review your own content: Re-listening to podcasts, like athletes watch film, for self-improvement and idea generation.
• “There are a lot of creative CMOs who don’t get to be creative anymore…they’re in meetings all day. That sounds like prison to me.” — Chris Walker [51:53]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Being “Early, Not Wrong”

"People call me a contrarian…I really don't see it that way. I feel like I'm just reflecting the truth that people don't want to hear."
— Chris Walker [02:17]

On Short-form vs. Long-form Marketing Content

"Sometimes I think the short-form stuff actually does a disservice...if you took the time to listen to the whole thing, you would have a different perspective."
— Dave Gerhardt [07:34]

On The Real ROI of Content

"The benefits that I'm seeing most right now is...all the objections...the feedback and insights you get from your customers help you shape your message, your product, how you help customers implement, how you structure your organization, how you price it."
— Chris Walker [09:16]

On Attribution and ROI Mess

"With multi-touch attribution, you can spend $7 and give all $7 credit for the same dollar of revenue...all of a sudden, it costs seven times as much to get a customer."
— Chris Walker [24:27]

On Restructuring Marketing

"There's a part that is strategy...analyst relations, pr, comms, product positioning, competitive intelligence...If you get it right, you can 5x the growth rate."
— Chris Walker [32:41]

On Team Size & Performance

"I have customers that have a 50-100 person marketing team and some with four people...the four-person team puts out 100x better stuff, 100x faster."
— Chris Walker [39:03]

On the Creative Process

"If AI is an accelerant, just like advertising is an accelerant, it’s an accelerant to something that’s already working, that you’ve already thought through a great strategy."
— Chris Walker [40:51]

On CMO Career Arc

"There are a lot of creative CMOs who don’t get to do marketing anymore…they sit in meetings all day and deal with politics. That sounds like prison to me, kind of."
— Chris Walker [51:53]

Key Timestamps for Reference

• [02:17] — Chris on being “early, not wrong”
• [04:47] — How Chris deals with backlash
• [09:16] — The feedback loop advantage of podcasts and content
• [13:06] — Podcast as tool for expansion and retention
• [14:43] — Chris’s “zero” starting point with small audience
• [17:53] — Macro GTM shift: Sustainable growth, not growth-at-all-costs
• [22:09] — Real campaign costs and the attribution trap
• [24:27] — Multi-touch attribution distorts true CAC
• [32:41] — Dividing marketing: Strategy vs. Pipeline Creation
• [38:51] — Smaller, nimbler internal teams and the impact of AI
• [44:30] — CMOs must get back into the details/execution
• [47:53] — Structuring your week for deep work; creative processes
• [51:53] — Creative CMOs being trapped in meetings, losing their spark

Final Thoughts

This episode is a must-listen for B2B marketing leaders, aspiring CMOs, and anyone interested in how the craft of marketing is being reshaped by technology, financial pressures, and the evolution of the role itself. Chris and Dave's candid exchange offers a blend of practical frameworks, strategic reframes, and personal anecdotes—grounded in real experience and delivered with their trademark authenticity.

Suggested Next Steps

• Reassess your marketing org: Are strategy and pipeline creation separated and clearly resourced by skillset?
• Audit your attribution and ROI systems: Are you really measuring what works, or just celebrating misleading metrics?
• Foster creativity: Block time, shrink team bloat, and empower senior marketers to actually market, not just manage.
• If you aren’t already, consider launching a podcast or community as a feedback loop and learning platform.

If you want more insights or to join the ongoing conversation, check out the Exit Five community at exit5.com.

Summary done in the tone and style of The Exit Five CMO Podcast—insightful, direct, and relevant.