The Ezra Klein Show

Episode: Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes and the Right’s ‘Groyper’ Problem

Date: November 14, 2025
Host: Ezra Klein
Guest: John Ganz, historian, political theorist, author of When the Clock Broke and writer at Unpopular Front

Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into the convergence of figures like Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes, and the rise of "Groyper" politics—a meme-driven, overtly white nationalist, and antisemitic movement—within the American right. Ezra Klein and guest John Ganz explore where these ideas come from, how they've migrated from internet subcultures into the mainstream right, and what this portends for the future of the Republican Party and American political culture at large.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who is Nick Fuentes and What are "Groypers"?

• John Ganz defines Nick Fuentes as “the most popular representative of neo-Nazism in America” (04:13).
• Fuentes rose from a middle-class background, became a fervent Trump supporter, and assembled a following of disaffected young men online. He led the so-called “Groyper Wars,” pressuring the conservative mainstream towards the far-right, especially on race, LGBTQ, and the “Jewish question” (04:21–05:23).
• "Groypers" are an online meme-centric subculture, symbolized by a Pepe-like toad avatar, characterized by racist, antisemitic, misogynistic, and conspiratorial content. They use humor and irony to obscure their real ideological intent (06:27–08:51).
• Quote:
  “It’s just a kind of anarchic indulgence of a very sadistic ID that usually involves the humiliation of minorities or women.” — John Ganz (09:38)

2. Cultural & Generational Shift on the Right

• Klein and Ganz discuss how Groyper content now saturates the entire cultural environment for young people on the right (08:51). There is a marked generational divide: under-40 right-wingers are deeply immersed in this meme-heavy, anti-norms universe.
• The right has reinterpreted its opposition to “woke” and “cancel culture” as a license to indulge in ever-escalating transgressions, culminating in harder-edged racism and antisemitism (10:08–12:03).

3. Role of Trump and the Erosion of Norms

• Trump’s emergence in 2016 opened the door to alt-right and extremist figures, breaking down longstanding norms within the right (12:03–14:15).
• While some elements of the alt-right receded after initial backlash (e.g., Charlottesville), meme-driven white nationalism continued thriving beneath the surface, especially among young conservative staffers (13:05–14:15).
• Relaxed social media moderation under Elon Musk’s X (formerly Twitter) accelerated the mainstreaming of these ideas (14:15–15:41).
• Quote:
  “They saw [Trump] and they said, okay, this is our chance… it never really fully goes away.” — John Ganz (13:04)

4. Tucker Carlson’s Central Role

• Carlson has pivoted from establishment conservative to MAGA kingmaker, often echoing white nationalist talking points in subtler terms and seeking to shape the party’s direction.
• He intentionally remade his public persona, moving from “good time libertarian rich kid” to “folksy,” anti-establishment figure (19:07–23:54).
• Carlson is seen as “more helpful to interpret...as a politician,” wielding as much influence as elected officials, possibly positioning himself as MAGA’s next leader (19:25–23:34).

5. The Tucker-Fuentes Interview: Mainstreaming Antisemitism

• Carlson’s two-hour conversation with Fuentes was unprecedented for its open discussion of classic antisemitic tropes (about the “problem” of Israel, “Jews as an unassimilable group,” dual loyalty, etc.).

• Fuentes’ rhetorical style masks extreme positions in neutral-sounding language, making them less shocking and more “rational-seeming” (31:46–33:16).

• Klein highlights the shift from leftist anti-Zionism (universalist, human-rights-based) to rightist ethnostate logic, which leads naturally to exclusion and demonization of Jews as a threatening “fifth column” (34:18–37:52).

• Notable Exchange:

  “The Jews are an unassimilable group, self-interested, internationally organized…animated by a deep hostility to the people that surround them.”
  — John Ganz (33:07, summarizing Fuentes’ rhetoric)

  “The final move… is where Tucker says, ‘We white Europeans, the heritage Americans, we’re taught to hate ourselves. There’s been no rational self-interest since World War II.’ That’s the bridge of antisemitism to Trumpism.”
  — Ezra Klein (33:42)

6. Collapse of Conservative Gatekeeping and Institutional Drift

• Institutions like the Heritage Foundation, now led by Kevin Roberts, are reflecting and amplifying these energies, even as older staffers push back.
• With "moral anarchy" and no immune system against explicit bigotry, young staffers question if there should be lines at all (55:37–57:55).
• Leading figures (Trump, Vance) refuse to condemn or distance themselves from these factions (57:55–58:40).

7. Exploitation of Israel-Gaza Crisis & Cynicism

• The Israel-Gaza war deeply fractured both the right and left.
• Many right-wing figures use anti-Israel rhetoric opportunistically (“I don’t think that Tucker Carlson lost much sleep over the Arabs who died in Iraq. I just have zero sympathy for them…” — John Ganz, 44:26–46:15), blending legitimate criticism with classic conspiratorial antisemitism.

8. The Structural Role of Social Media

• Ganz speculates that the “internet itself is structurally antisemitic” because it enables fringe communities to scale up, and its culture rewards transgression and polarization (73:30–75:50).
• Self-described “losers” and “incels” find community and “sadistic” power online, then project those pathologies outward into politics.

9. Limits and Dangers: Is This Actually Popular?

• Debate on whether this new coalition can attract mass support (67:06–74:08).
• Klein argues that, while this subculture is loud and visible, it is not representative of America's young people, who vote left and have different priorities. But, due to America’s two-party system, even small coalitions can seize outsized power (79:57-82:12).

10. Historical Roots: Pat Buchanan and the Logic of Ethnonationalism

• Roots traced back to Buchanan’s “Death of the West”—a book promoting white nationalist politics, now a canon text for the MAGA movement (70:58–72:39).
• Buchanan’s logic, once marginal, is now central: “Are Jews part of the West, or are they the ‘other’?” (71:22–72:39).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Nick Fuentes is odious and despicable. He’s what I would call a racist. Racist…” (Right-Wing Commentator, 01:14)
• “He’s a booger eating white supremacist holocaust denier.” — Ezra Klein (01:22)
• “No one is more responsible for the ‘groiperification’ of the right than Tucker Carlson.” — Ezra Klein (context, recurring)
• “Tucker’s making the same points they’ve been trying to make their entire lives, but much better. He’s found a wider audience and the ideal method of expression for many of the same ideas.” — Source close to white nationalist circles (21:06)
• “It’s a kind of coalition—declining aristocracy, held down, dissatisfied mob, bringing them together.” — John Ganz (27:01)
• “If you’re going to build an ethnostate, and you are ideologically opposed to there being anything you can’t talk about… it’s almost a hydraulic process towards antisemitism.” — Ezra Klein (40:29)
• “My only warning about that is—I think a lot of young people grew up online. A lot of people are very online. It’s not that different from the norm.” — John Ganz (79:57)
• “This party has shown itself to be totally out of touch with the American people. This party is the wave of the future. And then another election happens. That narrative is forgotten or is proven to be false very quickly.” — John Ganz (83:00)

Important Segments & Timestamps

• [04:13] — Who is Nick Fuentes?
• [06:27] — The origins and beliefs of “Groypers”
• [10:08] — The interplay between irony, provocation, and actual belief
• [12:03] — The Trump effect and the breakdown of norms
• [14:15] — Elon Musk/X’s impact as a “hinge point”
• [19:07–23:54] — The transformation and influence of Tucker Carlson
• [31:46–34:18] — Dissecting the Carlson-Fuentes interview and antisemitic tropes
• [55:37–57:55] — The generational and institutional crisis (Heritage Foundation example)
• [73:30–75:50] — The structural role of the Internet in spreading these ideologies
• [81:22–83:00] — The risks to American democracy if party dynamics continue to erode

Conclusion/Takeaways

• The antisemitic and ethno-nationalist undercurrents that once existed at the margins have found open champions and gatekeepers within the mainstream right, largely through social media and the breakdown of norms.
• Figures like Tucker Carlson act both as politicians and kingmakers, translating the “sadistic ID” of online subcultures into a politics that is palatable for a larger audience.
• While there is an urge to view this as an online or youth-specific phenomenon, its political consequences are real given America’s two-party system.
• However, Klein and Ganz caution against overestimating this coalition’s breadth, noting that the majority of young people are not reflected in these internet subcultures. Yet the risk remains that, under stress or with the right conditions, these ideas could gain dangerous mass traction.

Recommended Further Reading (from John Ganz)

• Taking America Back by David Austin Walsh — history of the right’s half-hearted attempts to police antisemitism
• Furious Minds by Laura K. Field — analysis of MAGA intellectuals and justification of their politics
• Prophets of Deceit: Techniques of the American Agitator by Leo Lowenthal and Norbert Guterman — classic study of anti-Semitic propaganda in the U.S. (85:25)

This summary preserves the tone, depth, and complexity of the conversation, highlighting key themes and controversies while remaining accessible and useful for listeners seeking to understand the “Groyper” problem on the right today.