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Are We on the Cusp of a New Political Order?

The Ezra Klein Show

Published: Fri Nov 01 2024

Our politics are increasingly divided on fundamental issues like the legitimacy of elections and the nature and integrity of the basic systems of American government. That’s the most important fact of this election. But strange new zones of agreement have been emerging, too — on China, outsourcing and health care. What should we make of that? In his book “The Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order” the historian Gary Gerstle describes these shifts in consensus in terms of political orders — these eras that stretch for decades, when both parties come to accept a certain set of ideas. In this conversation he walks me through the political, economic and social factors that shaped two political orders in the last century: the New Deal order and the neoliberal order. And we apply this lens to what’s happening in our politics right now. It may seem strange to take a step back in time right before the election. But I think Gerstle’s framework helps uncover an overlooked dimension of the ...

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ezra Klein Show – "Are We on the Cusp of a New Political Order?"

In the November 1, 2024 episode of The Ezra Klein Show, hosted by Ezra Klein from New York Times Opinion, Klein engages in a profound conversation with historian Gary Gerstle. The discussion delves into the evolution of American political orders, the rise and decline of neoliberalism, and the emergent dynamics shaping the current political landscape. This summary captures the essence of their dialogue, highlighting key points, notable quotes, and the overarching insights presented.

1. Introduction to Political Orders

Ezra Klein opens the episode by reflecting on his 2020 book, Why We're Polarized, and how the nature of political polarization has intensified since then. The conversation is set against the backdrop of fundamental divisions in American politics, moving beyond policy disagreements to questions about the very legitimacy of elections and governmental integrity.

[00:16] Ezra Klein: "The polarization of this year is different... the divisions are much more fundamental."

2. Defining a Political Order

Gary Gerstle introduces the concept of a political order, explaining it as enduring structures that transcend individual election cycles. These orders are maintained by a consensus that includes policies, constituencies, and political institutions, often lasting 30 to 40 years.

[03:57] Gary Gerstle: "A political order is something that lasts beyond particular elections... typically lasts 30 or 40 years."

3. The New Deal Order and Eisenhower's Compromise

The discussion traces the New Deal order, established under Franklin D. Roosevelt during the Great Depression, highlighting how Republican acquiescence, particularly under Dwight D. Eisenhower, solidified this political consensus. Eisenhower's decision to maintain progressive taxation rates and uphold key New Deal policies was pivotal.

[12:50] Gary Gerstle: "Eisenhower understands that in order to win the ideological struggle of the Cold War... America had to demonstrate that it could give its ordinary citizens a good life."

4. The Rise and Impact of Neoliberalism

Transitioning to the neoliberal order, Gerstle explains its emergence in the 1970s as a response to economic crises and global competition. Neoliberalism advocates for deregulating markets, reducing government intervention, and promoting free trade. This shift marked a departure from the New Deal's expansive government role.

[28:12] Gary Gerstle: "Neoliberals believe that the best economic program is one that frees capitalism from its shackles... the role for government is to ensure that markets can function freely and robustly."

5. The Carter Era and Shifting Liberal Consensus

Ezra Klein probes into the Jimmy Carter presidency, noting a growing skepticism towards big government and a desire for deregulation within the Democratic Party. Carter's influence, alongside figures like Ralph Nader, signaled an internal struggle within liberalism, balancing traditional New Deal values with emerging neoliberal principles.

[32:43] Gary Gerstle: "Carter is an heir to suspicion of excessive federal power... imagining a different Democratic Party."

6. The Reagan Era and Neoliberal Consolidation

The conversation moves to Ronald Reagan's presidency, illustrating how Reagan's anti-Communist stance and advocacy for free markets solidified neoliberalism's dominance. Reagan's policies emphasized deregulation, tax cuts, and reducing the role of government in economic affairs.

[46:32] Gary Gerstle: "Clinton acquiesces to some core Reaganite beliefs... he becomes an advocate of deregulation."

7. Clinton's Presidency: Acquiescence to Neoliberalism

Bill Clinton is portrayed as the "Dwight D. Eisenhower of neoliberalism," wherein his administration continued and expanded neoliberal policies. Notable actions include the Telecommunications Act of 1996 and the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, further entrenching free-market principles.

[46:45] Gary Gerstle: "Clinton reads that moment as signifying that the older Democratic party... had to be reworked and revamped."

8. The Collapse of the Soviet Union and Its Aftermath

Gerstle discusses the fall of the Soviet Union between 1989 and 1991, a monumental event that not only ended the Cold War but also emboldened neoliberalism. The collapse underscored the perceived superiority of free-market capitalism and diminished the Communist threat, reinforcing deregulation and market freedom.

[41:46] Gary Gerstle: "The collapse of the Soviet Union... vindicates free market thinking and the IT revolution that allows people to think market perfection is within our grasp."

9. The 2008 Financial Crisis and the End of Neoliberalism

The 2008 financial crisis is identified as a critical juncture that exposed the flaws of unchecked neoliberalism, such as financial corruption and growing economic inequality. The government's preferential bailout of banks over ordinary citizens highlighted systemic inequities, eroding trust in free-market orthodoxy.

[59:22] Gary Gerstle: "The financial crisis exposed... how profoundly unequal the access to power was under the neoliberal regime."

10. Current Political Landscape: Polarization and New Agreements

Despite acute political polarization, Gerstle observes emerging areas of bipartisan agreement, particularly concerning China, immigration, and antitrust policies. These convergences suggest the formation of a new political economy that challenges neoliberal principles.

[64:40] Gary Gerstle: "China and tariffs are one area of agreement... a new political economy taking shape, one that breaks with the central principle of neoliberalism."

11. The Influence of China on American Politics

The rise of China as a global economic powerhouse has reshaped American political discourse, fostering bipartisan concern over trade imbalances, technological competition, and national security. This shared apprehension unites both parties in reevaluating their economic and foreign policies.

[68:03] Gary Gerstle: "The collapse of the Soviet Union... allows capitalism to penetrate globally, bolstering belief in free-market supremacy."

12. Moral and Cosmopolitan Ethics in Neoliberalism

Neoliberalism is not merely an economic doctrine but also encompasses a moral and cosmopolitan ethic. Gerstle highlights how neoliberal values promote individual autonomy, diversity, and global interconnectedness, aligning with progressive social movements and reshaping ethical perspectives in politics.

[54:57] Gary Gerstle: "Neoliberalism makes possible... the opportunity to travel anywhere, to seek out personal adventure, to seek out different cultures."

13. The Future Political Order

Looking ahead, Gerstle posits that America is in an interregnum between political orders, with no clear successor to neoliberalism yet established. The current political climate, marked by both inter-party collaboration on specific issues and deep intra-party divisions, suggests the emergence of a new, yet-to-be-defined political consensus.

[66:39] Ezra Klein: "We can see here a new political economy taking shape... no new political order has established itself to the point where we can say with assurance, yes, this will triumph."

14. Conclusion and Recommended Readings

As the episode draws to a close, Gary Gerstle recommends three insightful books that explore the intersections of politics, morality, and economic policy:

  1. "The Kingdom, the Power and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism" by Tim Alberta – An exploration of American Evangelicals and their influence on politics.
  2. "Underground Global Revolutionaries and the Assault on Empire, 1900-1925" by Tim Harper – A study of early 20th-century radicals in Asia and their impact on global political movements.
  3. "The Known Citizen: A History of Privacy in Modern America" by Sarah Igoe – An analysis of the evolving concept of privacy in the context of technological and social changes.

[88:06] Gary Gerstle: "Tim Alberta's The Kingdom, the Power and the Glory... Tim Harper, Underground Global Revolutionaries... Sarah Igoe, The Known Citizen..."

Notable Quotes

  • Ezra Klein on Shift in Polarization:

    [00:16] "The polarization of this year is different... the divisions are much more fundamental."

  • Gary Gerstle on Political Orders:

    [03:57] "A political order is something that lasts beyond particular elections... typically lasts 30 or 40 years."

  • Gary Gerstle on Eisenhower’s Compromise:

    [12:50] "Eisenhower understands that in order to win the ideological struggle of the Cold War... America had to demonstrate that it could give its ordinary citizens a good life."

  • Gary Gerstle on Neoliberalism:

    [28:12] "Neoliberals believe that the best economic program is one that frees capitalism from its shackles... the role for government is to ensure that markets can function freely and robustly."

  • Gary Gerstle on the 2008 Financial Crisis:

    [59:22] "The financial crisis exposed... how profoundly unequal the access to power was under the neoliberal regime."

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a comprehensive examination of the shifts in American political ideology, tracing the trajectory from the New Deal through neoliberalism to the present-day political climate. By intertwining historical analysis with contemporary insights, Ezra Klein and Gary Gerstle provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the forces shaping current political dynamics and the potential emergence of a new political order.

No transcript available.