Episode Overview

Episode Title: Best Of: The ‘Quiet Catastrophe’ Brewing in Our Social Lives
Host: Ezra Klein
Guest: Sheila Liming, author of Hangout
Date: November 25, 2025

Ezra Klein revisits a thought-provoking 2023 conversation with Sheila Liming on the increasing loneliness and isolation in American society. Together, they unpack the structural causes of social atomization, the “lost art” of hanging out, and why modern life’s focus on autonomy, mobility, and individual achievement comes at a profound social cost. Drawing on Liming’s research and personal stories, they explore avenues for reviving richer, more resilient forms of community—and highlight the existential stakes if we continue trending toward isolation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Epidemic of Loneliness—A Structural Catastrophe

Timestamps: 00:34–05:28

• Decline in close friendships: From 1990 to 2021, there was a decrease of 25 percentage points in Americans who report having five or more close friends.

• Society’s choices at fault: Increased wealth and mobility have paradoxically led to higher loneliness. Societal decisions favor work, distance, suburban sprawl, and private property over communal structures.

  "We design for atomization and isolation. And so no wonder we get lonely. But that raises this deeper question of why did we choose that and what would it then look like to choose otherwise?"
  —Ezra Klein [02:42]

• Loneliness as outcome, not just affliction: It’s an imposed result of the value system and infrastructure we collectively chose, rather than an individual failure.

2. “Hanging Out” as a Lost Capacity

Timestamps: 05:28–09:00

• Definition: Liming defines “hanging out” as daring to do not much in company, without expectation or production.

  “I define hanging out in the book as daring to do not much and daring to do it in the company of other people.”
  —Sheila Liming [05:53]

• A social musculature: Regular exposure is required to maintain this “muscle”—without it, the skill atrophies.

• Loss of spontaneity and improvisation: Social time has shifted from spontaneous, formless, group living (e.g., teen years, group houses) to tightly scheduled, agenda-driven meetups as adults.

  “A key part of hanging out is improvisation, like social improvisation, just sort of making things up in the moment with another person or a group of people.”
  —Sheila Liming [07:49]

3. Structural Barriers to Community

Timestamps: 09:00–13:22

• Private property & autonomy: U.S. culture prizes individual space—“the dream is actually to achieve some sort of isolation.” This control curtails communal living.

  “A lot of it stems from the expectation of private property ... in terms of, like, pride and privacy and distance and, you know, isolation that you get to choose when you want to be alone.”
  —Sheila Liming [10:27]

• Class differences: Well-educated, affluent Americans are most likely to move far from family and home, optimizing for career mobility—and thus, isolation.

  “As people get richer, they seem to get more mobile, they seem to atomize more.”
  —Ezra Klein [11:57]

4. Family, Friendship, and Social Choice

Timestamps: 17:29–23:10

• Changing family structures: The nuclear family is historically rare—most societies, past and present, live in more extended, porous arrangements.
• Cycles of connection: Unlike friendships, families offer cyclicality and recurring opportunities to reconnect, even after conflict or boredom.
• Potential for chosen & “porous” families: Broader, less rigid notions of family (including second cousins, neighbors) help create more frequent, low-pressure hangouts.

5. America’s Spatial & Cultural Design for Isolation

Timestamps: 23:10–27:33

• Single-family zoning: Limits options for group/cooperative living; even attempts at co-housing are constrained by geography and commute patterns.

• Homeownership as “adulthood”: Powerful cultural pressure to own a home, even for those who’d benefit more from communal living.

• Nostalgia for community: Fondness for college or shared youth housing is tied not just to age, but to intense, constant proximity and casual community—something seen as “awkward” or “immature” for adults.

  “We treat loneliness as a problem, but we don't really treat the social conditions that give rise to it as worthy of any real revision.”
  —Ezra Klein [27:27]

6. The Class Dimension of Social Structure

Timestamps: 35:07–37:32

• Wealth buys “extended family”: The affluent outsource childcare and social support, mimicking larger familial structures.
• Middle class bears the brunt: Struggles with expectations of the nuclear family without extra resources.
• **Working class often retains closer, intergenerational proximity.

7. Youth Loneliness & Digital Substitution

Timestamps: 37:32–42:54

• Young adults as the loneliest cohort: Despite cultural assumptions, young people report feeling lonelier than elders.

  “I was pretty surprised by this recent study by CIGNA that found that about almost twice as many adults aged 18 to 24 reported feeling lonely versus seniors aged 66 and older.”
  —Ezra Klein [37:32]

• Social media & comparison: Digital life creates more models of “what socializing should look like,” provoking self-judgment and passivity.

• Online curation vs. real-world risk: Digital interaction teaches us to block or curate relationships, undermining our ability to manage discomfort and conflict in real life.

8. Risk, Conflict, and the Value of Annoyance

Timestamps: 51:39–55:37; 63:12–66:07

• Fear of “awkwardness”: Parents (and adults) now try to shield children from risk and awkward social scenarios (e.g., “no sleepovers”), denying essential opportunities for social growth.

  “Awkwardness is part of our emotional landscape. There's no real way to avoid it. It's just something you are going to run into...”
  —Sheila Liming [51:39]

• Risk in hanging out is generally low: Most social risks are minor (momentary rejection, boredom), but vital for personal and relational growth.

• Trading annoyance for meaning: Modern life systematically reduces everyday annoyances—yet this also erases opportunities for deeper, meaningful connection.

  “When you begin to remove so much of the friction of life, you end up robbing yourself of experiences that require a fair amount of annoyance to get to something deeper.”
  —Ezra Klein [63:12]

9. Digital Life’s Impact on Intimacy

Timestamps: 46:07–50:11; 66:07–73:54

• Constant connectivity, constant isolation: Devices (esp. headphones) signal “do not disturb,” reducing incidental interactions in public.

  “The omnipresence of headphones has turned casual conversation into something of an intrusion.”
  —Sheila Liming [48:02]

• Letter writing, phone calls, and voice notes: Long-form, direct communication (letters, voice notes, phone calls) foster deep intimacy—something fleeting in a world of brief texts and video calls.

  “Writing is the act of trying to create a record of your understanding of something … in the act of letter writing, the relationship stays in motion.”
  —Sheila Liming [70:34]

• Phone vs. Zoom:
  Ezra notes that phone calls create more intimacy than video calls: “Somehow seeing somebody digitally is worse than not seeing them, even if seeing them in person is better than seeing them digitally or being on the phone.” [73:54]

10. The Workplace as a Social Hub—And Its Erosion

Timestamps: 57:10–61:55

• Offices fostered casual, “atmospheric” connection: Small talk by the coffee machine, after-work drinks, and project collaborations once undergirded social life for many.

  “Gosh, I miss small talk at work. It's not something I get to experience very often these days...”
  —Sheila Liming [58:13]

• Remote work’s double edge: Offers autonomy and convenience but exacerbates alienation, thins relationships, and weakens organizational loyalty and camaraderie.

11. Broader Cultural & Philosophical Reflections

Timestamps: 32:56–36:07; 64:39–66:07; 75:47–78:05

• Rethinking the “normal” family: The nuclear family of mid-20th-century America is the exception, not the historical rule. Pressure for this norm produces strain—but porous, inviting, communal families could relieve it.

• Community as antidote: Structuring life for community (not just individual or nuclear family needs) would mitigate much loneliness and isolation.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ezra Klein on the architecture of loneliness:

  “We design for atomization and isolation. And so no wonder we get lonely. But that raises this deeper question of why did we choose that and what would it then look like to choose otherwise?” [02:42]

• Sheila Liming on hanging out:

  “I define hanging out in the book as daring to do not much and daring to do it in the company of other people.” [05:53]

• Ezra Klein on adulthood and housing:

  “We have a tremendous cultural pressure on homeownership ... If you suggested to them they should live in a group house now ... they would look at you like you’re crazy. ... We treat loneliness as a problem, but we don't really treat the social conditions that give rise to it as worthy of any real revision.” [25:23, 27:33]

• Sheila Liming on risk:

  “Awkwardness is part of our emotional landscape. There's no real way to avoid it. It's just something you are going to run into at various points in your life...” [51:39]

Book Recommendations

[75:52–78:05]

1. Black Paper by Teju Cole – Essays and lectures meditating on ethics, insight, and contemporary life.
2. On the Inconvenience of Other People by Lauren Berlant – A philosophical investigation of the phrase “hell is other people,” and the political significance of inconvenience.
3. The Hare by Melanie Finn – A feminist gothic thriller novel.

Reference Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction of the core issue & guest: [00:34–04:13]
• Loss of hanging out as a social skill: [05:28–09:00]
• Class & education-based atomization: [11:57–15:58]
• Workplace & the shift to remote work: [57:10–61:55]
• Digital communication & intimacy: [66:07–73:54]
• Book recommendations: [75:52–78:05]

Tone & Style

The tone is thoughtful, empathetic, and pragmatic, with both Klein and Liming reflecting honestly on their own experiences of isolation, nostalgia, and connection. Although the subject can feel bleak (“a quiet catastrophe”), the conversation offers moments of warmth, humor, and hope, emphasizing the joy and possibility inherent in even small acts of spontaneous companionship.

For those seeking a roadmap out of modern isolation, this episode is an invitation—think about the structures (not just apps or habits) that can make “just hanging out” happen by default, and imagine what could flourish if we reorganized life around communion, not just autonomy.