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Trump Kicks Down the Guardrails

The Ezra Klein Show

Published: Tue Nov 19 2024

I’ve been watching since the election to see what timeline we’re in. And Donald Trump’s first wave of selections for appointees were pretty straightforward. But then came the turn: Pete Hegseth, a former “Fox & Friends” host, to helm the Pentagon; Tulsi Gabbard for director of national intelligence; and the real gut-punch, the former representative Matt Gaetz for attorney general. In the parts of government that can be weaponized most dangerously — the military, the intelligence services, the Department of Justice — Trump is putting true lackeys and loyalists in charge. I fear we’ve entered the bad timeline. Anne Applebaum is a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian, a staff writer at The Atlantic, and the author of a new book, “Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want to Run the World.” In this conversation, we discuss how she’s been processing Trump’s picks, what to make of Elon Musk’s role in Trump’s inner circle, the indicators to look out for when governments slide in an autocratic...

Summary

The Ezra Klein Show – Episode Summary Release Date: November 19, 2024

Introduction

In this thought-provoking episode of The Ezra Klein Show, host Ezra Klein engages in a deep conversation with Ann Applebaum, a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian and expert on authoritarianism. The discussion delves into the ramifications of Donald Trump's second term, the implications of his appointments, and the broader trajectory of American democracy in the face of rising autocratic tendencies.

Trump's Second Term and Authoritarian Tendencies

Ann Applebaum begins by analyzing the nature of Donald Trump's leadership style and its shift towards authoritarianism in his second term.

Ann Applebaum [06:07]:
"One of the hardest things about covering Donald Trump is that it is hard to talk about him without sounding unhinged. And that is because he acts in ways that are, by any reasonable standard, unhinged."

Applebaum emphasizes Trump's ability to distort reality, making it challenging for opponents to remain neutral.

Ann Applebaum [00:56]:
"Trump is able to effectuate. He makes his opponents look like rabid antagonists by making them respond to a reality that leaves no room for neutrality."

Appointments and Their Implications

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on Trump's appointments, such as Matt Gaetz for the Department of Justice (DOJ), and their potential to undermine key government institutions.

Ann Applebaum [07:27]:
"The point of appointing Matt Gaetz is so that Matt Gaetz will break the rules of the Department of Justice... he will use it to prosecute or persecute or harass Trump's enemies."

Applebaum draws parallels between these appointments and historical authoritarian regimes, highlighting the dangers of consolidating power through loyalists.

Ann Applebaum [10:58]:
"These are exactly the agencies you would care about."

The Role of Institutions and Loyalty Tests

The conversation delves into how Trump's administration uses loyalty tests to secure control over crucial institutions, thereby paving the way for authoritarian rule.

Ann Applebaum [09:04]:
"Very often this is what, if you look at other autocratic regimes in other places, very often it's the forcing of people to adhere to a conspiracy theory or say things... that's the loyalty test."

Applebaum warns that placing individuals who lack broader loyalties into powerful positions is a common tactic among autocrats to maintain control.

Elon Musk's Influence in Government

A noteworthy segment explores the role of Elon Musk in the emerging administration, particularly his influence over Twitter and potential advisory roles.

Ann Applebaum [26:06]:
"He has proved that you can do that. And now one of the questions is also going to be, will he now begin to do that in other countries?"

Applebaum draws comparisons between Musk's role and oligarchs in other authoritarian states, raising concerns about conflicts of interest and the manipulation of information.

Historical Parallels with Authoritarian Regimes

Applebaum provides historical context by comparing current events to past authoritarian regimes, emphasizing similarities in tactics used to undermine democratic institutions.

Ann Applebaum [14:00]:
"If you look around the world now and you look at both authoritarian and semi-authoritarian regimes, you see, that's how it works."

She highlights how modern autocracies replace competent officials with loyalists to degrade the quality of governance.

The Evolution of the MAGA Movement

The discussion traces the development of the MAGA movement from a mere political faction to a more structured ideology with dedicated groups aiming to influence various institutions.

Ann Applebaum [43:15]:
"They have their own symbols, they have their own language. It's a thing people are part of."

Applebaum anticipates the movement's shift towards more strategic actions to maintain polarization and control.

The State of Political Resistance

Ezra Klein and Applebaum address the current state of political resistance, noting a sense of exhaustion and fragmentation among Trump's opponents compared to the energized support from his base.

Ann Applebaum [57:46]:
"Beware the tendency for opposition to be divided and dividable by the ruling party."

Applebaum underscores the importance of a unified front in combating authoritarian tendencies.

Recommendations for Civic Engagement

In response to growing concerns about authoritarianism, Applebaum offers actionable advice for listeners feeling overwhelmed or powerless.

Ann Applebaum [64:38]:
"Involve yourself in a local group, a discussion group, join a political party, run for local office... do something that makes you active and that makes you feel that you're taking part in the governance of your country."

She emphasizes the significance of grassroots involvement in sustaining democratic institutions.

Book Recommendations by Ann Applebaum

To further understand the intricacies of authoritarianism and corruption, Applebaum recommends three insightful books:

  1. "Moneyland" by Oliver Bullock
    Explores the history and mechanisms of offshore money laundering and its global impact.

  2. "Offshore" by Brooke Harrington
    Provides an insider's perspective on the world of offshore finance and the sociological aspects of corruption.

  3. "American Kleptocracy" by Casey Michel
    Focuses on grand corruption within the United States, detailing how it manifests and its implications for democracy.

Conclusion

This episode of The Ezra Klein Show offers a compelling examination of the current political landscape in the United States, drawing on historical parallels and expert analysis to shed light on the potential drift towards authoritarianism. Ann Applebaum's insights serve as a crucial reminder of the fragility of democratic institutions and the importance of vigilant civic engagement.

Notable Quotes

  • Ann Applebaum [00:56]:
    "Trump is able to effectuate. He makes his opponents look like rabid antagonists by making them respond to a reality that leaves no room for neutrality."

  • Ann Applebaum [07:27]:
    "The point of appointing Matt Gaetz is so that Matt Gaetz will break the rules of the Department of Justice."

  • Ann Applebaum [14:00]:
    "If you look around the world now and you look at both authoritarian and semi-authoritarian regimes, you see, that's how it works."

  • Ann Applebaum [26:06]:
    "He has proved that you can do that. And now one of the questions is also going to be, will he now begin to do that in other countries?"

  • Ann Applebaum [64:38]:
    "Involve yourself in a local group, a discussion group, join a political party, run for local office... do something that makes you active."

This summary captures the essence of the discussion between Ezra Klein and Ann Applebaum, highlighting key themes and insights relevant to understanding the current political environment and its potential implications for American democracy.

No transcript available.