The Ezra Klein Show
Episode: Fareed Zakaria Thinks Steve Bannon Got One Thing Right
Original Air Date: November 21, 2025

Episode Overview

In this energetic and intellectually wide-ranging live conversation, Ezra Klein sits down with Fareed Zakaria at Symphony Space in New York to discuss Zakaria’s most recent book, "Age of Revolutions," and the present political, social, and economic turbulence shaping Western societies. Their conversation dives deeply into the historical and structural roots of far-right populism, the changing logic of political and cultural divisions, the role of technology and communication in upending hierarchies, the evolution and shortcomings of the left, and the complex future of immigration, elite formation, and social cohesion. Including audience Q&A, the episode spans pressing present-day questions through the lens of history and global comparison, balancing critique and hope in equal measure.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Steve Bannon (and Soros) Are Right About Revolutionary Times

(02:32–05:39)

• Zakaria recounts a meeting with Steve Bannon in Rome where Bannon, quoting George Soros, asserts, "we live in revolutionary times."
  • They agree something fundamental has shifted in politics—away from the old economic left-right debate to a new, culturally-driven politics.
• The Tea Party marked a turning point: "The core concerns...were not what the Republican Party used to be about...It was cultural issues, immigration, gender, multiculturalism, what's now called the woke agenda." (Zakaria, 04:47)

2. The Structural Roots of Populist Uprising

(05:39–09:55)

• The old Republican Party, led by mandarins, corporate and business elites, was able to suppress far-right populism. That changed post-2008.
• Zakaria notes, "You are seeing a consistent shift away from voting purely economic interests...The value spectrum is no longer left versus right on economics: it's open versus closed, largely on culture." (Zakaria, 09:07)

3. Inequality’s Role and its Limits as an Explanation

(09:55–13:18)

• Klein presents staggering wealth inequality data, prompting Zakaria to argue:
  • The ultra-rich now accrue wealth at unprecedented rates, with policy unable to keep pace.
  • However, countries with less inequality (like Sweden, Germany, France) have similar populist surges, implying culture/tradition and immigration, not pure economics, are core drivers.
• "The age we are living in...these things get channeled through cultural discontents. An entirely materialist conception of politics...is not meeting the moment." (Zakaria, 12:40)

4. Why Parties of the Left Have Lost the Working Class

(13:18–16:27)

• Klein introduces the “Brahmin left” theory—left parties became elite-dominated and lost working-class bonds.
• Zakaria: "The left has become largely populated by a kind of managerial elite, technocratic, meritocratic...That reality has distanced it from the working class. But why? Because of culture." (15:08)
• Data shows working-class voters align more with right-leaning parties, not due to left economic policies but because of left cultural stances.

5. Technology and Media as Revolutionary Forces

(16:27–20:13)

• Klein: Major populist surges align with the rise of algorithmic and social media, not just migration or economic shifts.
• Zakaria: "Radio allowed authoritarians to broadcast, centralizing messages; now, the highly-distributed digital network collapses hierarchy, empowers radical extremes, and is fundamentally anti-hierarchical." (18:50)

6. Why the Center-Left Struggles in the Social Media Age

(21:58–24:43)

• Klein: The center-left produces no political stars in the smartphone era; the right excels.
• Zakaria: Risk-averse "meritocratic, technocratic elites" are outmatched in a disruptive attention economy. The right, feeling culturally out-of-power, becomes risk-seeking and experimental.

7. Does a New Age Demand a New Left?

(24:43–28:15)

• Klein: To survive and inspire, the left must be as populist as the right, in attitude as much as policy.
• Zakaria: "A politician of the future on the left will have to be populist in spirit and tone...not just economics but about connecting with people...who didn't go to college." (25:52)

8. Material Abundance and the Rise of Identity Politics

(28:15–33:21)

• Zakaria: The “identity revolution” arises partly from postwar abundance and security—people have the luxury to focus on identity after basic needs.
• He distinguishes identity politics (rooted in group membership) from broader “post-materialist” causes like the environment.
• The right’s culture war is also a kind of identity politics: “if we can get whites to act on their identity politics… that’ll overwhelm everything.” (Zakaria, paraphrasing Bannon, 33:15)

9. Fluid, Surprising Coalitions and the Limits of Identity

(33:21–36:21)

• Klein: Trump’s coalition has become more multiracial, losing some white support and gaining Hispanic votes.
• Zakaria: “To woo these [Hispanic] people on the basis of their class identity...But at the end of the day, the ethnonationalist part...turns people off.” (34:41)
• A warning that Republicans’ hard edge on immigration may make their recent gains short-lived, opening an opportunity for Democrats—if they take it.

10. Crafting a Coherent, Humane Immigration Policy

(36:21–43:00)

• Klein: The left is pulled between border security and humanitarian principle, lacking affirmative vision.
• Zakaria: Modern asylum is gamed by economic migrants and criminal networks; humane order, not open borders, is needed: "You cannot let everybody in… there has to be a process. The great battle… is for legal immigration." (41:00)

11. Lessons from Northern European Welfare States

(43:14–47:03)

• Zakaria: The happiest societies offer dignity to the poor, simple and accessible welfare, and deep community ties.
• Such ties are hard to replicate in America’s rootless, restless “Jay Gatsby” culture. But "the dizziness of freedom" (Kierkegaard) hollows out society if unbalanced with belonging.

12. Solidarity vs. Cosmopolitanism: The American Urban-Rural Split

(47:03–51:18)

• Klein: Urban diversity fuels solidarity within cities like NYC or LA; the backlash arises elsewhere—from those watching, not participating.
• Zakaria: "It is the anxiety, the dizziness, of somebody else's freedom." (49:57)
• Denmarks’ left-wing government keeps power with strict immigration policies—possible path for the American left?

13. Elites: Meritocracy, Smugness, and Empathy

(51:18–55:03)

• Zakaria: The transition to meritocratic elites (of which he and Klein are members) was positive but has bred complacency and lack of empathy: “The problem is…the very fact that it was meritocratic started to make people very smug, very self satisfied and believe that they deserved everything…”

14. Counter-Elite Projects and the Case for Enlightenment Liberalism

(55:03–59:10)

• Klein: The New Right’s “aristo-populism” seeks to create a counter-elite, recentering tradition, faith, and limiting liberty.
• Zakaria: The left must reclaim its Enlightenment promise—autonomy, freedom, dignity—but keep it practically rooted. “At the end of the day… this new conservative nationalist project is saying, we will force you… to deny them freedom… the liberal, the Enlightenment liberal project, I believe at the end will succeed.” (57:00)

15. Liberalism’s Illiberal Excesses

(59:10–60:29)

• Zakaria: "Where the left went wrong is in areas that became fundamentally illiberal... DEI stuff, a lot of the woke agenda is deeply illiberal." He calls for a return to universal individualism, echoing Martin Luther King’s aspiration to be judged by character, not skin color.

16. Audience Q&A Highlights

(60:29–70:42)

• How can Zoran Mamdani (left populist NYC politician) deliver?

  • Zakaria: A left agenda only succeeds with massive housing supply—market mechanisms are essential to affordability. "If you want prices to go down, supply has to go up." (62:55)

• Impact of U.S. foreign policy turning inward (toward the hemisphere & borders):

  • Zakaria: A Trump-era inward pivot threatens nuclear non-proliferation and open global order. The U.S. is moving from global openness to economic, cultural closedness.

• Most memorable world leader interview?

  • Zakaria: Lee Kuan Yew, for combining strategic vision and efficient execution, forging a polyglot Singapore without major religious or ethnic strife.

• Three book recommendations:

  1. A Preface to Morals by Walter Lippmann
     • On the anxiety of modern liberty and the hollowness left by lost certainties.
  2. The Coming of Post-Industrial Society by Daniel Bell
     • Forecasts the knowledge economy and the rise of technocratic elites.
  3. The Lost City by Alan Ehrenhalt
     • On how the “community” of olden times was often built atop limits, poverty, and lack of choice.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "The value spectrum is no longer left versus right on economics; it's what I call open versus closed, largely on culture."
  — Fareed Zakaria (09:07)
• "An entirely materialist conception of politics... is not meeting the moment."
  — Fareed Zakaria (12:40)
• "The left has become largely populated by a kind of managerial elite...that reality has distanced it from the working class. But why? Because of culture."
  — Fareed Zakaria (15:08)
• "The one we are in now... produces the collapse of hierarchy, the empowerment of individuals, the empowerment of radical extremes."
  — Fareed Zakaria on social media-era politics (18:50)
• "A politician of the future on the left will have to be populist in spirit and tone, and these things are not trivial."
  — Fareed Zakaria (25:52)
• "The age we are living in...these things get channeled through cultural discontents."
  — Fareed Zakaria (12:40)
• "You cannot let everybody in… there has to be a process. The great battle… is for legal immigration."
  — Fareed Zakaria (41:00)
• "Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom."
  — Kierkegaard, quoted by Zakaria (46:40)
• "It is the anxiety, the dizziness, of somebody else's freedom."
  — Fareed Zakaria, riffing on Klein’s point (49:57)
• "The very fact that it was meritocratic started to make people very smug, very self satisfied and believe that they deserved everything..."
  — Fareed Zakaria (52:45)
• "The liberal, the Enlightenment liberal project, I believe at the end will succeed because it is in deepest sympathy...with the greatest aspiration for human beings for the last 500 years, which is to have greater freedom, to have greater choice, to have greater individual dignity and respect."
  — Fareed Zakaria (57:00)
• "If you want the prices to go down, supply has to go up."
  — Fareed Zakaria on NYC housing (62:55)

Important Timestamps

• Bannon/Soros quote and new revolution: 03:01–05:39
• Tech, media, and hierarchy collapse: 16:27–20:13
• Center-left's attention deficit in the digital age: 21:58–24:43
• Identity politics, left and right: 28:15–33:21
• Immigration—problems and solutions: 37:51–43:00
• Northern European welfare states—community and dignity: 43:14–47:03
• The anxiety of cosmopolitan freedom for outsiders: 47:03–51:18
• Meritocracy’s pitfalls: 51:18–55:03
• Response to the new right’s 'aristo-populism': 55:03–59:10
• Liberal illiberalism, DEI critique: 59:10–60:29
• Audience Q&A - housing, foreign policy, book recs: 60:29–70:42

Memorable Moment

• The riff on the “dizziness of somebody else’s freedom” (49:57):
  Zakaria, building on Klein’s critique of national conservative nostalgia, describes how the resentment isn’t from inside diverse, cosmopolitan cities—but from outsiders dizzy with the freedom they witness at a distance—“the guy in Montana looking at what’s happening in New York and saying, oh my God, this is no longer my country.”

Summary Tone & Language

Klein and Zakaria’s discussion is rigorous, cosmopolitan, and philosophical—but always accessible, often wry and self-aware, with a distinctly global, comparative, and historical sensibility. Zakaria balances cool-headed analysis with deep empathy and self-reflection—offering sharp, sometimes critical takes on both left and right while maintaining optimism about the liberal project’s ultimate resilience and necessity.

For listeners seeking a nuanced, global, and historical understanding of our current moment—its problems and opportunities—this episode is both clarifying and stimulating, offering not just diagnosis but also reflections on what might come next.