How a Red-District Democrat Is Navigating Trump

Summary

Episode Summary: "How a Red-District Democrat Is Navigating Trump"

Release Date: May 6, 2025 | Podcast: The Ezra Klein Show | Host: Ezra Klein

In this compelling episode of The Ezra Klein Show, host Ezra Klein engages in a profound conversation with Congresswoman Marie Glusenkamp Perez from Washington's Third District. The discussion navigates the intricate dynamics of representing a predominantly Trump-supporting district as a Democrat, exploring themes ranging from economic philosophies and trade policies to community engagement and national polarization.

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1. Changing Political Landscape

[01:05] Ezra Klein initiates the conversation by highlighting the decreasing number of Democrats representing districts won by Donald Trump in presidential elections. He notes, “At this point, only a handful of Democrats represent districts that Donald Trump won,” setting the stage for understanding the unique position of Congresswoman Perez.

[03:53] Klein introduces Perez, emphasizing her distinct economic philosophy that diverges from mainstream Democratic narratives. He states, “She’s a pretty different [Democratic] economic philosophy… focuses on the right to repair and critiques consumerism.”

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2. Economic Philosophy: Producerism vs. Consumerism

[02:27] Perez articulates her stance against rampant consumerism: “We believe that a million cheap knockoff toasters aren't worth the price of a single American manufacturing job.”

She contends that the economy has shifted excessively towards consumerism, undermining the value of producers and workers with hands-on skills. This critique aligns paradoxically with some rhetoric from the Trump administration, which also emphasizes domestic manufacturing and reduced dependence on foreign goods.

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3. Tariffs and Trade Policies

[04:05] The conversation delves into Trump's tariffs, with Perez responding to a clipped statement about China's economic struggles: “At a broader level, tariffs are a tool. A tool can be used destructively or it can be used productively, and it depends on how it's wielded” ([04:36]).

[05:37] Perez emphasizes the importance of domestic manufacturing and self-sufficiency, criticizing trade deals that favor multinationals over local communities. She advocates for a nuanced approach to tariffs, focusing on what truly benefits the community rather than blanket opposition or support.

[06:34] Ezra Klein probes the overlap and contradictions between Perez's economic critiques and Trump's tariff policies. Perez responds by underlining her focus on community needs: “Do you have the power to stay home and spend time with your family? Or are you working three jobs?” ([07:41]).

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4. Localism vs. Nationalization in Politics

[16:09] Klein brings up the revival of Blue Dog Democrats, asking Perez about the shift towards localism in her political approach. Perez responds by sharing her deep-rooted connections to her community: “Having loyalty to your soil and to your community… is how we build good policy” ([16:09]).

She criticizes the nationalization of politics, advocating for policies that reflect the specific needs and values of her constituents rather than top-down, D.C.-centric agendas.

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5. Community Engagement and Constituent Relations

[34:06] Discussing her district's unique coalition, Perez highlights the challenges of representing both urban and rural voters in a Trump-leaning area. She underscores the importance of being accessible: “I hold a lot of round tables… not a damn one of them said antitrust” ([35:33]).

[36:38] Perez emphasizes the significance of town halls in fostering civic dialogue, noting the disparity between lobbyist-driven conversations and the everyday experiences of her constituents. She strives to balance addressing vocal, politically active segments with the broader, often quieter concerns of her community.

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6. Policy Proposals and Positive Agenda

[27:37] When pressed about her policy agenda amid Trump's tariffs, Perez advocates for a proactive, positive approach: “If this is the thing they're going to do, how do we harness it in a way that is productive in the long term” ([27:37]).

She proposes reforms such as permitting overhaul, antitrust actions, and integrating shop classes in education to rebuild skilled trades and promote economic self-determination.

[28:16] Addressing specific policies, Perez critiques both the Biden and Trump administrations' approaches to electric vehicle tax credits and domestic manufacturing, suggesting a more balanced focus on stationary electrification and energy efficiency rather than solely on high-tech solutions ([28:16]).

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7. Addressing Polarization and Building Common Ground

[37:31] Klein and Perez explore the deepening political polarization, questioning whether common economic concerns can bridge the divide. Perez stresses the importance of validating constituents' feelings and focusing on shared goals: “It's about presenting an actual policy agenda that will address those concerns” ([25:07]).

She acknowledges challenges such as the Hunter Biden laptop controversy but emphasizes the need to find underlying issues like judicial reform to unify disparate groups.

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8. Tackling the Fentanyl Crisis

[54:27] The conversation shifts to the pressing issue of fentanyl addiction. Perez outlines a comprehensive strategy involving multi-jurisdictional interdiction, treatment innovations, and addressing socioeconomic vulnerabilities: “There's interdiction of fentanyl and treatment and better options for people” ([55:36]).

She highlights the complexity of combating drug trafficking and the necessity of robust, cooperative law enforcement mechanisms.

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9. Conclusion: The Path Forward

[44:44] In closing, Perez reflects on productive community engagement versus merely expressing anger. She advocates for curiosity, humility, and building relationships as foundational to effective democracy: “Curiosity and humility and relationships are very powerful tools” ([44:44]).

Ezra Klein acknowledges the depth of Perez's insights, recognizing the importance of her community-focused approach in navigating an increasingly polarized political environment.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ezra Klein: “For a lot of Democrats, this is a pretty easy moment in economic policy for them. … But if you're someone like Lucian Cap Perez and your marginal voter is a Trump voter, well, how does this look to you?” ([02:57])

• Marie Glusenkamp Perez: “We want domestic manufacturing. We want self sufficiency. … How it's used is what matters.” ([05:37])

• Marie Glusenkamp Perez: “I think true environmentalism is not just buying like a matte package at Target. It is a way of being in the world.” ([11:18])

• Marie Glusenkamp Perez: “Like, if you prioritize stationary electrification first, then you're not moving that heavy battery everywhere with you.” ([32:30])

• Marie Glusenkamp Perez: “I think it's a mistake to try to talk somebody out of their feelings. … But you can affirm the validity of their feelings and also present a productive strategy.” ([49:09])

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Key Takeaways:

1. Economic Agency: Perez advocates for empowering producers and skilled workers, critiquing the overemphasis on consumerism within the current economic system.

2. Nuanced Trade Policies: She supports the use of tariffs as tools for promoting domestic manufacturing, emphasizing the need for policies tailored to community benefits rather than broad political stances.

3. Localism in Governance: Emphasizing loyalty to her local community, Perez seeks to craft policies that resonate with the specific needs and values of her constituents, countering the nationalization of political agendas.

4. Community-Centric Engagement: Through accessible town halls and direct constituent interactions, Perez aims to bridge the gap between political representatives and the everyday experiences of their communities.

5. Comprehensive Crisis Management: Addressing issues like fentanyl addiction requires multifaceted strategies combining law enforcement, treatment innovations, and socioeconomic support.

6. Building Common Ground: Amidst deep political polarization, validating diverse constituent feelings and focusing on shared economic concerns can foster unity and effective policy-making.

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Final Thoughts:

This episode offers a nuanced exploration of how a Democrat navigates representation in a politically discordant district. Congresswoman Marie Glusenkamp Perez exemplifies a model of community-focused politics, advocating for policies that prioritize local needs, economic self-determination, and sustainable practices. Her insights provide a valuable perspective on bridging partisan divides through empathy, strategic policy-making, and unwavering commitment to her constituents' well-being.

Transcript

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

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[Ezra Klein]

You go back a couple of decades in American politics and it is extremely common to have members of the House who represent a district that was won at the presidential level by the other party. But year by year, election by election, it's becoming a lot less common. At this point, only a handful of Democrats represent districts that Donald Trump won, but one of them is Marie Glusenkab Perez from Washington's third District. And Glusenkab Perez doesn't sound like other Democrats. She's a pretty different economic philosophy. They do one built around the right to repair. Built around, I would say, a moral critique of what our economics has come to look like, who we value, what we value, the way we have lost respect for those who work with their hands and the economy has become profoundly imbalanced towards a consumerism away from a producerism. Which makes it particularly interesting in this moment because all of a sudden people in the Trump administration began saying kind of similar things, that we should be making so much more at home, that we're addicted to cheap stuff from abroad, that we're on a sugar high economy, that we need to detox. So let's talk a little bit about what we believe in the Republican Party. We believe that a million cheap knockoff toasters aren't worth the price of a single American manufacturing job. If they had a choice between a doll from China that is not as.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Well constructed as a doll made in.

[Ezra Klein]

America, and those two products are both on Amazon, that yes, you probably would be willing to pay more for a better made American product. The market and the economy have just become hooked and we become addicted to.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

This government spending and there's going to.

[Ezra Klein]

Be a detox period.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Tariffs are about making America rich again and making America great again.

[Ross Douthat]

And it's happening and it will happen rather quickly. There'll be a little disturbance, but we're okay with that.

[Ezra Klein]

For a lot of Democrats, this is a pretty easy moment in economic policy for them. The tariffs are causing all this upheaval. Donald Trump is less popular than he was when he was elected by a lot. Simply opposing him is enough. But if you're someone like Lucian Cap Perez and your marginal voter is a Trump voter, well, how does this look to you? How has it changed your politics? I was curious to see how she was absorbing it. Things have gotten a little bit weirder in her district. There have been some very raucous town halls. So how is she thinking about what Donald Trump represents and the broader economic arguments she's been making as the politics of this begin to come into direct conflict with reality? As always, my email, Ezra kleinshoneytimes.com Congresswoman Marie Glusenkamperes, welcome to the show.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Thank you. Glad to be here.

[Ezra Klein]

So I wanted to start with a clip of President Donald Trump from Wednesday talking about China and his tariffs. Speak to President Xi of China.

[Ross Douthat]

Look, right now, and I told you.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Before, they're having tremendous difficulty because their.

[Ross Douthat]

Factories are not doing business.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

They made a trillion dollars with Biden. A trillion dollars, even a trillion one with Biden selling us stuff.

[Ross Douthat]

Much of it we don't need.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

You know, somebody said, oh, the shelves are going to be open. Well, maybe the children will have two.

[Ross Douthat]

Dolls instead of 30 dolls, you know.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

And maybe the two dolls will cost a couple of bucks more than they would normally.

[Ezra Klein]

What did you think of that?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Well, you're talking to a lady that doesn't give my child toys. I'm a big believer in dirt and string and sticks. But at a broader level, tariffs are a tool. A tool can be used destructively or it can be used productively, and it depends on how it's wielded. Talking to folks back home who really don't care at all about most politics, they have very sophisticated views on Canadian lumber dumping practice. We've lost seven mills in my area last year. I think it's about seven. We want domestic manufacturing. We want self sufficiency. We want the ability to make things ourselves. I think it's a mistake to defend our identity around being just consumers and not producers as well. But these reciprocal trade deals, it's a backroom deal for multinationals. How it's used is what matters.

[Ezra Klein]

It's one of the reasons I'd wanted to talk to you about the tariffs because in a way, members of the Trump administration have moved to making a critique that I think of as something that you've argued at times and that many people argue, which is that over decades we became somewhat addicted to cheap stuff from China, that we lost values that we should have had in terms of what we want in the economy, in terms of what we value in the people who participate in the economy. And on the other hand, it's yoked to this sometimes almost random seeming set of economic policies. And so I've just been curious how you're processing this. Do these feel like people sort of allied in thinking about where we've gone wrong? Do they feel like people who have hijacked arguments you make for something completely different? Like when you think about that economic philosophy that you've been trying to push in Washington, how have you processed both the sort of overlaps and the contradictions?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Well, I'm pretty focused on my community and what we want and what we believe. And yeah, I think people have pretty nuanced views. I mean, the specifics really matter. One thing that's weird is like watching the Democratic Party suddenly become the defenders of the stock market and like nasdaq. That's a weird thing to me. And I think the question is not like what the nominal picture of wealth in these terms are, but how much economic agency and self determination we have. Do you have the power to stay home and spend time with your family? Or are you working three jobs? Are you able to own a home, to own land owned farmland, or, or are you stuck in a cycle of perpetual running that you don't want to be in? Do you have the right to make your own stuff? Do you have a level playing field to start your own business? Those are the questions. And so that's kind of the lens that I think about these bigger international arguments on trade through is like what is worth having? At the end of the day, what do people really want?

[Ezra Klein]

Well, maybe we want contradictory things. I think on the economy specifically, I think we want plentiful, cheap goods. And I think we want the self determination, the resilience, an economy that values and rewards production in exactly the way you say. And I always think of one of the real problems for politics is being the collision of those two things. People want policies that will get us to that, self determination and sovereignty. But, but then, I mean, we saw this a bit during the Biden administration. If you begin to see the price of things at the grocery store go up, people get pissed real quick.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Yeah, I mean, I think that under NAFTA there's this argument presented to the American public of like, well, look, you're not going to have jobs anymore, but you have a bunch of cheap crap. And then when people don't have the cheap stuff and they don't have the jobs, it accelerates into a really profound anger, and I think kind of a righteous anger. And so, you know, one point is like, we don't just want cheap stuff. We want stuff that will last. I mean, I think that was one of the issues with the Chips act is it's like, well, what's driving the chip shortage? Like, do I want a washing machine that can play Tchaikovsky, or do I want a washing machine that will last more than three years? My washing machine's from 1997. My stove is from 1954. And I think about how many times that has been bought and sold on Craigslist. Like, how much durable wealth that's created in the middle class, not just because people were paid a living wage in America to make those things, but because then they held value and created value for the household who owned them. And then they were sold and bought and sold and bought and sold. And so, like, the durable wealth people kind of belittle this argument about, like, washing machines and dishwashers, but it's real. And I think particularly for people who are in the trades, it's like, shit, it's got 0.5% lower energy consumption or whatever, but they put the control panel right underneath the drip line. So of course it's going to blitz the marriage, not just of the technical, but of the applied. I used to run this bike shop, and I'll never forget teaching a physics major how to hold a wrench. Be like, move your hand back. You know, this is a fulcrum. You know, it is this over specialization that has sort of deprived the underlying value itself.

[Ezra Klein]

One thing that I think always is challenging this discussion is, is what people buy the signal for what they want? Or is what they will say in a deeper conversation the signal for what they want?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

You know, that's one of the things is that, like, we've replaced, you know, the idea of, like, freedom as the freedom to consume. And I would argue that we're not just consumers, we're stewards, we are producers. And so it's not just what you can buy, but it's what you can make and how you can make things last and your values, your inner values manifest in the world around you. So I have a bill that would require manufacturers of household appliances to put on the sticker the average life expectancy of that washing machine, along with the annual maintenance cost, because I think, like, you know, the persistence of Speed Queen or something like that does show that people will pay more. But having a class of buyers who has that information available, I think changes consumption habits.

[Ezra Klein]

Do you think of these as economic policy arguments or arguments that are almost more moral and spiritual in nature?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

They're both. You know, my dad used to say you can talk about your values all day long, but you see somebody's tax returns and you know what they really think. One of the de powering of the environmental movement has been supplanting real environmentalism with a consumption habit. Like true environmentalism is not just buying like a matte package at Target. You know, it's not a consumer good. It is a way of being in the world. It's a relationship to the natural world around you. It is the way that you spend your life developing skills and allocating your time to live in relationship to the world around you. Like one of the things I really love about where I live in rural Skamania is that we don't have trash service. So I have to look at all the trash. And of course I'm not going to buy a single serving yogurt cup because I'm going to have to smell that for two or three months before we go to the dump and load up the truck and take everything. You have to see it. And I think it enforces the reality there is nowhere else you can't export emissions. The climate is global. And your relationship to the world around you not just as a terrarium, but as a dependence and as like something that informs your life daily. Like I think that really matters to informing what trade offs people will make.

[Ezra Klein]

So I take that point. But I mean most people want trash pickup, right? I want trash pickup. And when you think of the cities and you represent partially a city, like they're not going to work without trash pickup. You know, I'm not necessarily here to defend single cup yogurt servings, but some of this is a kind of marvel of modernity that does have remarkable benefits and has allowed us to live in different ways in ways that are look like I have this sort of distinction I sometimes make between green and gray environmentalism. And there's ways of living deeply in harmony with the world around you. And then there's ways of living that are very unharmonious with the world around you aesthetically, but. But they're actually quite light footprint. Living in a pretty tall high rise is in many ways quite good for the environment because you just have a lot more economies of scale in the heating and a bunch of other things.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Yes, there are economies of scale, but often they can exclude the fuller reality. Like yes, there is a modern convenience, but is the climate better? Are we Happier? Are we healthier? Do we have what we actually want or has it been supplanted? And yes, I would like to have trash service, but would I like to have trash service enough to move to a city? No.

[Ezra Klein]

I very much take the point that you don't want trash service to move to a city. And I think that's totally fair. But what do you think and how do you talk to your constituents who do?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Oh, that's great. Like, if you want to live in a city, you should live. Yeah, it's also true. Like, you could put an apartment building in a rural town and a lot of people would get a lot of utility out of that. But I think one of the things that is missed frequently in this discussion is that, like, the shift to a service economy or a knowledge economy means that now your barber has to move to a city where they are not able to afford housing. When you have domestic manufacturing, if you're, you know, a mill in a rural community, you're able to own land, you're able to spend time with your family. I'm not trying to, like, slight the urban issue, but I think it's that divorce from the farms you rely on, from the water that you drink, from being able to ship your garbage somewhere else and not have to smell it yourself, it changes your relationship to the natural world around you. And if you're not clear about that and those relationships, you're losing something necessary.

[Ezra Klein]

I think you're losing something profound, something that you've been involved in recently is the revival of the Blue Dog Democrats. And I think for my younger audience who sort of doesn't remember the Blue dogs of the 90s, that was sort of traditionally the more moderate Democratic coalition. And it may still be that now. But the argument you all made, and I thought this was interesting, is that what you really want to bring back is localism, that politics has become too nationalized. Tell me a bit about that. I feel like this is actually pretty important to your politics, a sense that nationalization is maybe broken the way politics is supposed to work in one answer is going to be bringing back a localism that we've lost.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Yeah, my American, like my mom's side of the family, my dad's from Mexico. My mom's family's been in Washington State for five generations, pre statehood. And the last time that people in my gene pool were Democrats was when they were Blue Dog Democrats. That still means something to people. When Blue Dogs were a large caucus because we were holding seats that we had, not that we have lost and not regained. And so it is a clear urgency of like having a gavel and having the ability to govern. But it's also the question of on whose behalf and towards what end. I think having loyalty to your soil and to your community and not something that's been focus grouped in D.C. or that came from a think tank, but like, what matters to people at home, that is what is fun. It's like, I don't want to be a mouthpiece for any agenda besides my communities because it matters to me. Like, this is where I'm trying to die. It's where I got married. It's where I really try to give birth. And like that loyalty in the lens that if you can build a political body that is bringing that local lens together, fierce loyalty to the specifics of our community. That is how you build the Venn diagram of what is a useful federal policy. That's, I think, how we break the stranglehold that this duopoly, it's being useful and relevant and building good policy out of the urgent, specific realities of our community.

[Ezra Klein]

I think something that you have correctly criticized the Democratic Party for is a sort of politics of dignity and indignity, where things that you value are not well valued by the party, but I think by, you know, cultural elites more broadly. When you talk about the physics major, you to show how to hold a wrench. There is a valuing of office work and a devaluing of shop work. One thing I hear you saying is that in some ways we should reverse the moral hierarchy, that it's actually bad to have this sort of trash service that alienates you from your trash. Right. It's kind of. It's okay for people to live in cities, but you got to understand that we've probably gotten off track in a pretty profound way in modernity. There are a lot of people in politics who I hear like their critique is very surface level. We should change the dials on the tax code a little bit. When I listen to you, I hear something much more fundamental. A sense that we've gone off course in terms of what and who we value and the correction. I mean, stickers on home appliances is a good start to sort of tell people how long they last and what they cost.

[Ross Douthat]

But.

[Ezra Klein]

But that there's something that has gone wrong. To you, it seems to me, morally here, is that fair? Or would you say I'm overreading you?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

I think that telling a child that what they're interested in isn't interesting or what they're good at isn't good enough is deeply toxic. I think that there are a lot of forms of intelligence. I mean there's millions and exactly one of them is academic intelligence. And to your point, it's like, well, you know, we're going to shut your mill down, we're going to stop harvesting timber. But hey, here's a grant that you could apply for. If you're nice to me, maybe I'll give you money. That's not what people want. Like people want self determination and agency. And I think it presupposes a hierarchy that's pretty offensive to a lot of people. I know that you're going to tell me I have a problem and that you're the one that knows how to fix it. It's this masturbatory interest in policy without a reality of implementation or localism. You can't be all brain and no muscle. They're equally necessary to have a healthy body. And there is also a false dichotomy like not everything worth knowing you can learn in a book. We don't all want to go to college. Don't tell me we need to go to colle to be useful and to be self realized, self actualization or whatever. Like we can know things and be in the world in a way that is not strictly capturable by a, or capturable at all by like a spreadsheet. Right?

[Ezra Klein]

So this is why I started in this Trump quote, because something to me really interesting and strange is happening in politics and economic politics right now. Look, Donald Trump has been for decades the living breathing embodiment of materialist excess. And Republicans probably been quite free trade and you know, very excited about cheap stuff from all over the world. Democrats have been a little bit more, generally speaking pro tariff and a little bit more skeptical. And even during the campaign, Trump is running aggressively on the cost of living, how much everything cost, how much things would be at the Walmart. And as he's sort of layered on these tariffs, you've begun seeing this other argument that was sort of burbling around the edges of, I would call it the new right for a while get more central. And all of a sudden Donald Trump is talking about how we have too much cheap stuff in this country and kids shouldn't have all these dolls and we're too materialistic and we're not valuing the right things. And the Democratic Party and liberals in the Democratic Party becoming very pro free trade, which is not their traditional stance. And you're watching this thing reorient really fast. And I mean Trump is good at that. He sort of reorients politics around him. But when you watch this and you talk about the Democratic Party becoming the party that is defensive of the line on the stock market, how have you just experienced this? Do you feel like your allies are changing? Do you feel. I guess I asked this in a way before, but do you feel like your critique's being hijacked for something that, you know, doesn't really serve it? Like there's something changing around you? I don't think you're changing that much, but something is changing around you, and people are talking in a way they didn't speak before. How do you take it?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Things have moved and shrunk, and you've got, like, 8% hyper focused on the left and 8% hyper on the. On the right. And it's like they're talking and they have the mic and, like, it's leading this. But I think, to your point, like, yeah, my community, people in my community, their experience in the economy hasn't changed that much. Like, still can't afford rent or can't get a loan from the bank to get a house, still working three jobs, still worried about their truck getting repossessed. Like, people's experience hasn't changed that much. And it's like, it is kind of wild to me to see the same playbook getting picked up again from Trump's first term to today, where it's like reflexive resistance. And I would argue that the urgency here is to have a positive policy agenda that is relevant to more people. If you're somebody that has the ability to go to a protest every day, it is not reflective of the average American experience. And thinking about, how do you. How do you build an agenda that is more useful to your neighbors, that is relevant? If you want to bring more people, you have to present a policy position that is more popular than the policy positions Trump's proposing. And it's like, I think he has done a good job of amplifying and echoing broad dissatisfaction with the way things are going. And we can't put ourselves in a position of just negating and refuting everything he said. It's about presenting an actual policy agenda that will address those concerns and that rage that people are feeling about their loss of agency in the world. Sometimes there are critiques about, like, you know, the world's on fire and she's talking about bananas and washing machines and right to repair. But, like, talking to people about the things they care about and fighting for the agenda and priorities of my community, like, that is the job of a representative. And you know, it's like I held a lot of round tables with farmers in my community when we were working on the farm bill and not a damn one of them said antitrust. But farmer after farmer was telling me that, yeah, I used to be able to sell my chickens 12 different buyers and now I can sell them to two. That matters to people. Having a level playing field for their business, having economic self determination matters to people.

[Ezra Klein]

I guess what I'm asking you on this though, because I don't buy. I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but the tariffs are going to matter to people. This is not some elite Washington fixation. I mean your community is going to feel them like you know this much better than me.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

We don't know that they're staying is the other thing. And so just being the anti Trump.

[Ezra Klein]

But you have to treat policy that he is proposing like it will. I mean it might not stay if it is opposed in a certain way. But I think I'm asking like he is making an argument for these things. That sounds, it's something similar. I take the stylized policy here as we should dramatically raise the price of every single good that comes into this country and really dramatically raise the price of goods from China. So we wean ourselves off a lot of cheap crap and we make it here. And if that means things cost more and if that means you can have things good, like it's time for you to like pick up, start making things here again and like get over this neoliberal delusion that we can have, you know, everything shipped in from another continent at half price. I mean the tariffs will go up and they'll go down. But like is that right? Is he right about. Is he going about it wrong? Is he right on half of it? I mean this is a big policy, right? This is not weirdo Washington stuff. Like we're all gonna feel this, like it's going to affect every store in the country.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

I think most of us in my community share a lot of those sentiments. You know, like when they shut down the paper mills, congratulations. Now we're packaging everything in plastic, disposable plastic from Saudi Arabia and we got wildfires at home because there's no value in the residual, you know, in the slash piles. And so I would say like the policy position can't just be anti, anti, anti, anti, but saying, all right, like what is it going to take to build manufacturing? It's going to take permitting reform, it's going to Take some antitrust work. Like it's going to take shop class in junior high. It's going to take a, you know, the elite reevaluating and like acknowledging the nobility of people in the trades and the reality of dirty hands, clean money. So I think it would be a mistake to just be anti, anti, anti, but instead saying, all right, if this is the thing they're going to do, how do we harness it in a way that is productive in the long term for having the things that we actually want?

[Ezra Klein]

Tell me a bit more about what that looks like. I hear you on permitting reform. I mean, the argument the Biden administration used to make was we are trying to compete with China by building our capacity here. We'll put tariffs on a limited number of things from China, electric vehicles, batteries, solar panels, things like that. And we will invest a bunch in domestic manufacturing capacity and infrastructure and that's going to get us where we need to go. Then you have Trump who says, no, what we need to do is actually just make the things unaffordable and that's what's going to get us where we need to go. What would you keep from the two approaches or would you keep nothing from them? When you say it should be a positive agenda, what should that agenda look like?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Well, I mean, a reevaluation that there's been this obsession with technology and the next whatever lobbyist is in your office shilling triple glazed argon filled windows and a blindness to the actual skilled trades of yeah, you know what? You get a shit ton if you put the long side of your house facing south, you put an eve on it. If you put a skirt around a mobile home, it's a metal sheet that connects the bottom of the mobile home to the ground, creates an air gap, saves a shit ton of energy. And now those folks who have a lot of them on fixed income, living in a mobile home, their energy bill just went way down. You don't put a hip in valleys in your roof line. You're going to get a roof that lasts for 50 years. We ignored all of the things that we know in the trades are the kind of low hanging fruit of energy efficiency and utility and a progressive tax system. That's one of the things that bothers me is that it's like, you know, the electric vehicle tax credits, the heat pump tax credits, like those were profoundly regressive tax strategies.

[Ezra Klein]

Let me ask you about the electric vehicle tax credits for a second because let me try to give the best version of that argument. As I understand it People will buy many, many, many new cars over the next 10, 20, 30 years. That's just baseline. We want there to be a big electric vehicle transition. We also want a lot of those electric vehicles to be made here. So when the Biden administration does this, they put pretty heavy tariffs, I mean, 100%, as I remember it, on Chinese electric vehicles, which are a major competitor, and they do a lot of investment in domestic supply chain on that. This sort of sounds to me, in broad strokes, like a policy you would like. It's not the only policy. It doesn't take away from the question of a million things we could do to weatherize homes and make homes more efficient. But if we want to make it here, if we sort of want these cars that people buy and we expect on the margin there's going to be a decision people make between combustion engines and electric wheels. We want them to be electric and we want to accelerate this technology so it gets cheaper more quickly. So it's not a decision only richer people can make. That's sort of how I map that policy out in my mind. What's sort of wrong with that logic to you?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

I mean, I've never bought a new.

[Ezra Klein]

Car in my life, but most people do eventually. I mean, that's not a rare thing in this country for people to buy new cars.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Yeah, I mean, I think first there's a priority on being a steward, a good steward of what you already have. Like that manifest environmentalism is getting your rig to make it to 500,000 miles. It is making what you have last longer and wanting less. You know, I think that there's been a lack of pragmatism. A bit like, like a Tesla plaid with like a 300 mile radius, like uses 10 times as much battery minerals as it would take to have a hybrid on the road. That's one side of it. I think the other side of it is a selection bias. My colleagues and I, we fly a shit ton. Like we're always on the road, we're always seeing consumer transportation. And so that's what gets echoed. But in reality, like if you prioritize stationary electrification first, then you're not moving that heavy battery everywhere with you. You're not wearing roads out. So like port infrastructure, being electrified, things like that. Like that is, I think, a much better bargain. That is where things should look first. If you're trying to decrease the carbon footprint of the American basket of goods. It's not just like what feels good or what's like a virtue signaling, but like what is the actual absolute value you can get.

[Ross Douthat]

Building a business may feel like a big jump, but on deck small business loans can help keep you afloat. With lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to $250,000, OnDeck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business. As a top rated online small business lender, Ondeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs. Visit ondeck.com for more information. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtibank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

[Ezra Klein]

We are living in interesting times, a turning point in history. Are we entering a dark, authoritarian era or are we on the brink of a technological golden age or the apocalypse?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

No one really knows, but I'm trying.

[Ezra Klein]

To find out from New York Times opinion. I'm Ross Douthat and on my show Interesting Times, I'm exploring this strange new world order with the thinkers and leaders giving it shape.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Follow it wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ezra Klein]

Tell me about some of the divisions over sort of these ideas are trumping your district right now. You've had some very raucous town halls recently, and you've got these voters who are both the voters that Democrats win reliably and the voters that Republicans win reliably. Like, you have a. Like a very. You have a bigger coalition and a more complicated coalition behind you than most Democrats have. And you have urban and rural voters in your district. So how are the different constituents you come into contact with experiencing this moment differently?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Yeah, so six out of seven counties are highly rural. You have Vancouver is kind of the big city. Vancouver, Washington is the big city in my district and it's voted for Trump three times in a row. I outperformed Trump and Harris in the last election. And so, yeah, I have a unique coalition. I have a very independent community. So I think, like I was saying before, where it's like 8% here and 8% on the other side, but like most of us feel like it's all sound and fury and nobody actually gives a shit about our lives. The kind of unglamorous, deep, bitter erosion of fentanyl addiction and farm consolidation and job loss. I really believe in showing up. I do town halls in all my counties. I've done 15 now. And I think it's really important that people that you're available and accountable and present and meeting them where they are. And when I'm talking to people. I kind of, in my head, I have these two buckets of like, was this person paid to talk to me, or do they have to get a babysitter to come here? And I weight the input proportional to reflect, like, how many people in my community are paid to engage in politics.

[Ezra Klein]

What do you mean by paid to engage in politics?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Like a lobbyist or somebody that's a director. You know, they're paid to be in government relations. They're on the clock when they show up in my office. And if somebody had to take time off work to come talk to me, I take that really seriously. And I try to spend my time going out and talking to them, going to where they're at to be available. That's one of the reasons I believe in town halls. And at its best, it's a really powerful forum for civic dialogue. And I think at its worst, it turns into a mob where you have folks who are spending a lot of time reading news articles and, you know, they have the income to come out, and it's not reflective of most people's experience. And it's also a valid experience, and it's also a valid opinion that I do take into consideration. But you still have to account for the fullness of your community and what, you know, whether or not people have time to respond to, you know, a survey or make a public comment on some agency's website, their opinion still matters.

[Ezra Klein]

I mean, your position now is tricky. It's like there are a lot of Democrats who. Their marginal voter right now is absolutely furious. Their marginal voter is a Democrat, is somebody who might read the New York Times or listen to my podcast. And they just hate Trump. They hate what's going on. They don't see any good in it. And all that person has to do is show up and tell them how bad everything is and they're good. And your marginal voter is somebody who is at least open to this. Your marginal vote is somebody who maybe voted for Donald Trump and who definitely voted for Donald Trump. So put aside the people paid to talk to you, Right? I agree that the lobbyist and the government affairs class are different. How are the two sides of the people who just vote for you? Where do they diverge? And where in your experience of your own constituency, do they converge?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

So for a while, I was getting a shit ton of letters about Hunter Biden's laptop, and I think it's easy from people who are mad he wasn't being investigated. And I think it's easy to kind of like dismiss that as like silly. But I think if you lift the hood up on that, what a lot of those folks are saying is that they feel like there's a legal system that works better for you if you have a different last name or you have the right lawyer. And so if we offhandedly dismiss these concerns as silly or biased, we miss an opportunity to build a coalition of people who are actually all quite unified in wanting reform of our judicial system. I think that's the intersection of trying to delete the proper nouns out of the argument, figure out how terms are being used differently, what things mean to people, and what's the path to building an agenda that is more popular than what Trump is offering.

[Ezra Klein]

Is that true, though, about the Hunter Biden laptop issue? I mean, I take your point that there are people all over the spectrum, because they're right, this is true, who see a judicial system that works for some people very differently then it works for others. But you've got Donald Trump offering out pardons left and right. He is making God knows how much money off of what. Certainly seem to me to be incredibly corrupt crypto schemes. I wrote a book about political polarization. To me, some of this just reflects very different news sources and the tendency we all have to believe that the people on the other team are fundamentally corrupt, even evil. And the people on our team, it's understandable. These are old relationships. Maybe it's not as bad as you think. I guess I wonder if deleting the proper nouns from that can actually mislead. I think if you had gone from the Clinton email security fights in 2015, I guess it was, to where we are now with digital security under the Trump administration and the accessing of all these internal government databases and doing war plans on messaging apps, I don't think that's going to be a consistent line. I think that's just partisanship, reshaping people's brains.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

I guess what's the consequence of me being wrong about that and finding common ground and common cause for things that we all believe are worth having? At the end of the day, I think it's, you're probably right for a certain segment, but it's very easy to over account and say that that's all those people who are pissed about the laptop. And the truth is, yeah, most people, they're not thinking about it at all. They're handling their lives day to day. But those same people still, they know that some kids at their high school can get out of a Dewey and others can't because their parents could Pay for a lawyer, and that's gonna set them off on a different track.

[Ezra Klein]

I agree with you on that. The Hunter Biden story, I have such. I think I'm scarred by past email security debates. But I think that's why I was asking about this moment with the economy. Because, look, so much in politics has no visible ground truth to people. We're arguing about these bizarre, complex systems that are far away, or stories we don't really know. No ground truth that you can't go. You can't feel it around you.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Okay.

[Ezra Klein]

And that's why I'm sort of interested in some of the debates about the economy, because I do think people have common ground in the economy. They might want a lot of things all at once, but they, you know, they want, I think, a lot of what you're describing. They want to be able to have a good job. They want to have autonomy in that job. They want their children to be able to do well. They want things to be affordable in the store and also for them to have good wages and for the, you know, factories to be open and the goods, but also to be plentiful. And so I guess one question I've had is that do you feel people shifting in one direction or another, like, are things splitting apart for you in your district? Or they actually, as this becomes something real, you know, and people either worry about the tariffs or get excited about the tariffs, does it become more of one thing that you can work with and that, you know, its contours?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Yeah, I mean, I think you're right about this sort of fracture. Like, I think I've talked to folks from home who, like, used to be a part of the Democratic Party and left. They're like, yeah, we can never be correct enough for you. And, like, the Republicans are having a kegger. So, like, you know, I think that it's become quite loud, Folks not seeing the reform they want and, like, this, like, frustration, just, like, saying it louder, you know, and also kind of a decay of social institutions. Like, I was talking to a friend that runs a veterans assistance nonprofit, and they told me that, like, volunteer rates have fallen through the floor since January. Why? Well, for one, I mean, some folks are, like, more in politics, you know, Some people, well, you know, the cuts to food assistance programs mean that more veterans are coming in for food. And so the volume has gone up, but the availability of people to do that work is declining. I think it's. I mean, political activism can feel really, like, glamorous and correct. And it's like, how could you worry about these small things when the world's on fire? But like I would argue, the way you put the fire out is by actually going and building community. I don't think that democracy is something that you buy with a binary vote in one election. It is the muscle of community. It is your relationships with your neighbor and knowing the name of your mail carrier and talking to folks at daycare drop off and having the time to do that, that acceleration. But I was talking to somebody that's like, you know, they're going to protest Tesla every day. A lot of their family are Trump voters, but they don't want to talk to their family. They're like, that's not the forum for that. But, man, it feels good to get flicked off by guys driving F350s. You know, it's that muscle of community. And like, relationships, I think, is the. The kind of the path out of here.

[Ezra Klein]

What do you tell people works within community, within that kind of local democracy. I heard something said at a town hall, was that quote, being angry, being loud feels good, but is it productive? My assumption is you feel it's not productive. So what to you is productive?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Yeah, I mean, the part of your brain that is angry is not the part of your brain that you think strategically about with. Those are different muscles. And I think it can feel condescending to a lot of people when somebody's like, the world's on fire, everything's going to hell, and I'm the only one who sees it. And, like, you guys all need to wake up, you know, and it's like, I don't think people can hear that, you know, I think that curiosity and humility and relationships, like, are very powerful tools, profoundly powerful tools. I kind of think that, like, when you have all of your wants and needs met, it's easier to empathize with someone somewhere else or a fuzzy animal than it is to have compassion for your neighbor who's got a fentanyl addiction, or your neighbor that's got, like, rolling coal or that has the wrong lawn sign up. You know, there's a reason. It's like the greatest commandment is to love your neighbor.

[Ross Douthat]

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[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Hey, I'm Robert Vinloen. I'm from New York Times Games, and I'm here talking to people about wordle and the wordle Archive. Do you all play wordle?

[Ezra Klein]

I play it every day.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

All right. I have something exciting to show you. It's the wordle Archive.

[Ezra Klein]

Whaaaat?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Okay, that's awesome. So now you can play every wordle that has ever existed. There's like a thousand puzzles.

[Ezra Klein]

What? Wordle Archive.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Oh, cool.

[Ezra Klein]

Now you can do yesterday's wordle.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

If you missed it, New York Times game subscribers can now access the entire Wordle archive. Find out more at nytimes.com game subscribe by May 11th to get a special offer.

[Ezra Klein]

Let me ask you something. Sometimes I hear you say things and you seem really frustrated with. I think it's Democrats, specifically. I mean, I take the point that sometimes it can be easier to empathize with. I think you're saying sort of like a panda rolled away than the person right next to you. I don't know. We're disappearing people to El Salvador in terrorist prisons with no due process. Like, the tariffs will hurt a lot of these people, the same people you're talking about. I would not say the Trump administration has been amazing on fentanyl or even strategic about it, more to the point. And there's a lot of. I think that there is a lot of fear. I mean, the way I often put it to people when I've heard the argument, look, we should be worrying about, you know, the people next door, not, you know, people being shipped off to El Salvadoran prisons. Is it. I don't know when, like, I'm Jewish, and I think I bring my own kind of assumptions to this conversation, but I look at history and I look at other countries, and I feel like when the disappearance machine begins running, if people don't stop it, it can start going really far. Like, if regimes begin to realize they can use disappearance as a tool, who that eventually comes for is not clear. So, I mean, I was asking you sort of about common ground among your constituents. And what you sort of said is like, look, a lot of these people are sort of maybe sympathizing or empathizing with the wrong folks. But, I mean, is there a part of you that takes the other side of that argument that feels that Trump is trying to really fundamentally change the character of this country and its institutions and how it works. And the people who are scared as shit and, like, don't know what to do because they don't really have any power over it and, you know, they don't know how to get listened to, that there's a, a righteousness to the way they feel too.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Like, yeah, like, people are valid in their anger. And it's, it is a fool's errand to try to talk somebody out of their feelings. That is not, that's not a good idea. But you can affirm the validity of their feelings and also present a productive strategy for resolving some of those drivers of that anger or that fear. You know, on your point about El Salvador, my dad was the pastor of a Spanish language church growing up. And you want to meet somebody that really fucking hates gangs. You talk to an immigrant who gave up a profound amount to leave a country that was corrupt and run by gangs. That same person cares passionately about due process. They understand that the only inoculant against a corrupt regime is fidelity to due process. And if we had had due process in these cases, we would be in a position to evaluate a judge's decision about whether or not that person was involved in human trafficking or whatever the claim is. But the point is that we don't have it. And it's a deep strategic mistake to accept that we have to choose between really hating gangs and really loving due process. When you have experienced truly being afraid of being kidnapped or having your business exploited or human trafficking, you take quite seriously that feeling is real and valid. And the productive strategy is due process. Fidelity to due process. And I think it's kind of a yes. And like, yes, it makes sense to be scared. And if you're really believing that we are entering a totalitarian state is the point here, if you're really worried that we're never going to have elections again, why is the second bullet point on your agenda primaring Democrats? That's not what people do in real scenarios like that.

[Ezra Klein]

This has been, to me, one of the very frustrating things about the Trump administration. I also hate gangs. I don't want MS.13 operating in America. I don't want them operating anywhere. But we have due process. That's a good way to find out if people are part of MS.13. I find sometimes it's like a political blackmail that's applied. And I'm not saying you are, but I've heard this from other people where it's like, is your politics really to be on the side of people who might be in a gang? It's like, no, my politics is to be on the side of processes that protect everyone and also are perfectly good at figuring out if people are in a gang. We can cross examine some witnesses. Right. This is not like a thing that's going to endanger anybody. So when you're dealing with some of those issues that have become the cleavages, I mean, for you, is it reminding people that due process is a question that goes across the immigration divide? What do you find works for navigating that?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

Yeah, you know, where I live, like, we believe that countries have a right and an obligation to know who and what is coming across a border. I don't think that's crazy. And one of the, I guess, failures or weaknesses is that words mean different things all over the place. Some people talking about immigration, they're talking about drug trafficking. And whether or not you're mad about that conflation, you do have to hear and try to get at what is the strategy, the productive strategy to address it. And not just like policing the conflation, but saying like, yeah, it fucking sucks to have a family member addicted to fentanyl. It's been frustrating for me at times, you know, in this new world I'm in is like, it's not hitting. They're insulated. They're not hearing these horrifying stories about industrial accidents. It's not their play date that's getting in a car wreck because daddy's on fentanyl. It's not their cousins who are robbing grandma because they've got a fen, you know, and treating that with an urgency of like, how do we stop the flow of fentanyl? How do we build resilience against foreign actors that would like to see the entire middle class being addicted and unproductive?

[Ezra Klein]

Do you feel that there are fentanyl policies that we know how to do that really work? Every time I've really tried to write or report this out, the level of frustration I hear from the people really working on it is. It's almost unimaginable because it is so hard, it is so concentrated. It has become so much easier than heroin was before it to transport. Is there something you feel that if we did, it would make a big difference that we're not doing right now? That neither Biden nor Trump has put their weight behind a few things?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

I mean, cartels don't operate under political boundaries. And so I think multi jurisdictional interdiction like that works, ensuring law enforcement has the tools to be able to communicate and cooperate. I have issues where some of my departments, they transition to digital radios and some of them are still on radio towers and they can't talk to each other. They have to relay through a 911 responder. There are issues like that. There's the geopolitical question of these Chinese produced precursor chemicals. I was talking to my dad and one of his buddies from high school was running a factory in Mexico and figured out they were bringing in fentanyl precursors on the weekends. He went to the cops in Mexico and they were like, yeah, we fucking know. You can shut up or you can move to Canada. And so he moved to Canada. It's all of the supply chain going into it. And there are also some, I think the GLP3s. The. Is that right?

[Ezra Klein]

The GLP1s?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

GLP1s.

[Ezra Klein]

Unless there's more that I don't know about. But there might be.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

It's.

[Ezra Klein]

But yeah, they seem to have a real effect there.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

They have promising studies on reducing fentanyl addiction and helping people break that chain. But it's long work, you know. Then there's other drugs that are promising where it's like, rather than having to go in and getting a dose, like, if you're living where I live, like, you can't have a job and be in recovery, you have to go drive into Vancouver, you know, an hour and a half, whatever, every day to get a treatment, to get the drugs to help you get off. There's another drug that's emergent, that's like a 30 day release. Things like that. There's the long work of addressing the appetite and why people are vulnerable to these drugs. It's like interdiction of fentanyl and treatment and better options for people. If you know that you can run your own business, you can buy a log truck, you can, you know, you can do whatever you want with your life. You really do have latitude to make things in life. You're a lot less vulnerable to a cheap high.

[Ezra Klein]

Then I'll ask our final question. What are three books you'd recommend to the audience?

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

So there's a book my grandpa gave me, the Wheelwright Shop. It was written in the 1920s by George Strute, whose family had been building wooden wheels in England for 200 years. And like, the specifics of it are just beautiful. Like he's like, you know, you had to know that that grove, the elm grows too rich. It's not good for specific uses. To build a wheel that will last and that your name is attached to and that's useful to your community. You have to know how the SAP is running that year. You have to know when to quarter and split. It's a really beautiful book. There's another one. Experiences and Visual Thinking. It's like kind of a hippie 70s, but it is really brilliant at helping exercise the other parts of your brain that analyze problems like drawing and using your finger, I think does it a necessary part of rebuilding parts of your brain that are not just the correct answer, but how to create a caricature out of your idea and then like enlarge certain parts, reduce. It's a really useful, tangible tool. And then the other thing, you know, I've got a three and a half year old son at home and he's like, we cloned his father. He's like a really smart, gifted little mechanic and fun. But he also really loves poetry. So any of the children's poetry anthologies from Jack Perletzky, just that reading and language is fun. It's not academic. It is not for getting a good grade. It is joy and like the rhythm and the cadence and like moving it from a strictly like absolute, like rote ABCs to like the pleasure of rhyming things and just like having fun. And it is so fun to have a toddler running around your house like making up silly rhymes. I can't recommend it enough.

[Ezra Klein]

Congresswoman Marie Glusenkamp Perez, thank you very much.

[Marie Glusenkamp Perez]

This was fun. Thank you. Ezra.

[Ezra Klein]

This episode of the Ezra Klein show is Produced by Jack McCordick. Fact Checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Amin Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show's production team also includes Marie Cassillon, Annie Galvin, Roland Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Cobel and Kristin Lin. We Virginal Music by Pat McCusker. Audience Strategy by Christina Samielewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Andy Roy Strasser. And special thanks to Switchin Board Podcast Studio.