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In This House, We’re Angry When Government Fails

The Ezra Klein Show

Published: Fri Nov 22 2024

The core conflict in our politics right now is over institutions. Democrats defend them, while Republicans distrust them, and seek, in some cases, to eliminate them. This is really bad. It’s bad for institutions when Republicans are elected, because of the damage they might inflict. And it’s bad for institutions when Democrats are elected, because when you’re so committed to protecting something, it’s hard to be clear-eyed or honest about all the ways it’s failing. And when Democrats won’t admit to the problems that so many Americans can see and feel, that creates a huge opening for the right. So, what are Democrats missing? Steven Teles is a political scientist and director of the Center for Economy and Society at Johns Hopkins, and a senior fellow at the Niskanen Center. Jennifer Pahlka is the founder of Code for America and the author of one of my favorite books on why government doesn’t deliver, “Recoding America: Why Government is Failing in the Digital Age and How We Can Do...

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ezra Klein Show
Episode: In This House, We’re Angry When Government Fails
Release Date: November 22, 2024

Introduction

In the November 22, 2024 episode of The Ezra Klein Show, host Ezra Klein delves into the growing frustration with government institutions and the deepening political polarization surrounding their efficacy. Joined by political scientist Steve Telles and Jennifer Palka, founder of Code for America and author of Recoding: Why Government Isn't Delivering in the Digital Age, and How We Can Do Better, the conversation explores the shifting dynamics within the Democratic Party, the challenges of bureaucratic processes, and the broader implications for American democracy.

Key Topics Discussed

1. Democratic Anger Over RFK Jr.’s Nomination

Steve Telles opens the discussion by highlighting the unusual fury among liberals regarding RFK Jr.'s nomination to lead the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). Despite RFK Jr.'s historical alignment with many Democratic values, his shift towards vaccine skepticism and anti-corporate sentiments have alienated traditional Democrats.

Steve Telles [00:34]:
"Democrats are angrier about RFK Jr. than they would have been about a well, credentialed pro-life, anti-Medicaid pick, a normal Republican... The reaction reveals what the parties are truly about."

2. Polarization Over Institutions

The conversation shifts to the core polarization around institutions. Democrats advocate for the respect and preservation of institutions, emphasizing science and expertise, while Republicans adopt an oppositional stance, often viewing institutions as "woke" and corrupted by diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives.

Steve Telles [02:10]:
"The core conflict right now... is over institutions. Democrats staff and defend them. Republicans loathe and seek to raise them to the ground."

3. Institutional Efficacy and Minoritarianism

Jennifer Palka introduces the concept of minoritarianism, where small, often ideologically homogeneous groups wield disproportionate influence over policy and institutional decisions. This has led to inefficiencies and public distrust, as majorities feel their needs are unmet due to bureaucratic gridlock.

Jennifer Palka [07:18]:
"There's a sort of groupthink... Institutions that don't have conflict and seem to be entirely averse to conflict and disagreement... people are suspicious that somebody's hiding something."

4. Bureaucratic Processes and Civil Service Reform

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the inefficiencies within the civil service and bureaucratic processes. Ezra Klein criticizes the rigid adherence to procedures that prioritize process over outcomes, leading to delays and ineffective implementation of policies.

Ezra Klein [19:02]:
"The problem with Schedule F is it's not taking things down to the studs. It's going at the foundation... It doesn't help with performance management or hiring based on skills and experience."

5. The Impact of the COVID-19 Pandemic

The COVID-19 pandemic is examined as a pivotal moment that exacerbated distrust in government institutions. Decisions made during the pandemic, such as school closures and mask mandates, were perceived as coercive and mishandled, contributing to the erosion of public trust.

Jennifer Palka [55:02]:
"The COVID closures really did affect Musk's core business... There was enormous social pressure against diverging from elite consensuses, driving distrust."

6. Trust and Oversight in Governance

The duo discusses the delicate balance between oversight and trust in governance. Excessive oversight leads to risk aversion, stifling effective decision-making and innovation within government agencies.

Ezra Klein [48:18]:
"The way we practice oversight today increases risk aversion... We're not just criticizing them for being obsessed with the process, but reducing the surface area for attack by adversarial legalism."

7. The Democratic Party’s Internal Dynamics

Steve Telles and Jennifer Palka explore internal challenges within the Democratic Party, including factionalism and the difficulty of maintaining a cohesive platform amid diverse and sometimes conflicting priorities. The conversation touches on historical efforts like Clinton's "reinventing government" initiative and contrasts them with current inefficiencies.

Jennifer Palka [43:10]:
"There’s a space for internal institutional critique... Being a good institutionalist often means you have to be willing to reform the thing you love."

Notable Quotes

  • Steve Telles [00:34]:
    "Democrats are angrier about RFK Jr. than they would have been about a well, credentialed pro-life, anti-Medicaid pick, a normal Republican... The reaction reveals what the parties are truly about."

  • Jennifer Palka [07:18]:
    "There's a sort of groupthink... Institutions that don't have conflict and seem to be entirely averse to conflict and disagreement... people are suspicious that somebody's hiding something."

  • Ezra Klein [19:02]:
    "The problem with Schedule F is it's not taking things down to the studs. It's going at the foundation... It doesn't help with performance management or hiring based on skills and experience."

  • Jennifer Palka [55:02]:
    "The COVID closures really did affect Musk's core business... There was enormous social pressure against diverging from elite consensuses, driving distrust."

  • Ezra Klein [48:18]:
    "The way we practice oversight today increases risk aversion... We're not just criticizing them for being obsessed with the process, but reducing the surface area for attack by adversarial legalism."

Insights and Conclusions

1. Shifting Dynamics Within the Democratic Party:
The Democratic Party is grappling with internal divisions and a shift towards processes that may hinder effective governance. There's a tension between maintaining institutional integrity and adapting to deliver tangible outcomes for the public.

2. The Double-Edged Sword of Institutional Trust:
While institutions are meant to provide stability and expertise, their overreliance on bureaucratic processes can lead to paralysis and public frustration. Reforming these institutions requires a delicate balance between oversight and empowering discretion.

3. Minoritarianism as a Political Obstacle:
Small, ideologically driven groups within both parties exert disproportionate influence, often at the expense of broader public needs. Addressing minoritarianism is crucial for creating more responsive and effective governance.

4. The Pandemic as a Catalyst for Distrust:
Responses to the COVID-19 pandemic have highlighted existing weaknesses in government institutions, leading to increased skepticism and demands for accountability and reform.

5. The Need for Constructive Reform:
Both the public and policymakers recognize the need for government reform, but finding solutions that enhance efficiency without compromising protections and fairness remains a significant challenge.

6. Rebuilding Trust Through Transparency and Accountability:
To restore public trust, institutions must become more transparent and willing to acknowledge and rectify past failures. This includes improving communication, reducing unnecessary bureaucratic hurdles, and fostering a culture that prioritizes outcomes over rigid adherence to process.

Book Recommendations

Jennifer Palka Recommends:

  1. "Voice and Inequality: The Transformation of American Civic Democracy" by Theda Skocpol
    A classic exploration of the decline in civic organizations and the rise of professional and litigation-focused groups, leading to oligarchic rather than democratic forms of organization.

  2. "Infrastructure Cost" by Leah Brooks and Zach Liskow
    An in-depth analysis of the escalating costs of infrastructure projects in the U.S., highlighting the bureaucratic inefficiencies and minoritarian interventions that hinder progress.

Ezra Klein Recommends:

  1. "Why Nothing Works" by Mark Dunkelman
    A forthcoming lecture from the left addressing the internal obstacles within liberalism that impede effective governance and policy implementation.

  2. "The Unaccountability Machine" by Dan Davies
    An insightful investigation into how institutional structures deflect responsibility, leading to a culture where failures are met without assigning accountability.

Conclusion

"In This House, We’re Angry When Government Fails" presents a critical examination of the current state of American governance, emphasizing the urgent need for institutional reform and the restoration of public trust. Through insightful analysis and expert perspectives, the episode underscores the complexities of navigating political polarization, bureaucratic inertia, and the quest for effective, responsive government.

Notable Speakers:

  • Ezra Klein: Host and author with New York Times Opinion.
  • Steve Telles: Political scientist at Johns Hopkins and senior fellow at the Niskanen Center.
  • Jennifer Palka: Founder of Code for America, author, and senior fellow at the Niskanen Center.

No transcript available.