Is This America’s Golden Age? A Debate.

The Ezra Klein Show

•

Published: Fri Jun 20 2025

Kevin Roberts, Kellyanne Conway, Ben Rhodes and I battled it out a few weeks ago on a stage in Toronto. This was for a Munk Debate on the motion: “Be it resolved, this is America’s Golden Age.” It might not surprise you that I was arguing the negative, alongside Rhodes, a former senior adviser to Barack Obama and the co-host of “Pod Save the World.” Roberts and Conway were on the other side. Roberts is the president of the Heritage Foundation and an architect of Project 2025. Conway was Donald Trump’s senior counselor in his first term. The Munk Debates organization has kindly let us share the audio of that debate with you. If you haven’t heard of the Munk Debates, you should really check it out. It’s a Canadian nonprofit that, for more than 15 years, has been hosting discussions on contentious, thought-provoking topics. If you go to its site and become a supporter, you can watch the entire video archive. A classic I recommend: “Be it resolved, religion is a force for good in...

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ezra Klein Show – “Is This America’s Golden Age? A Debate”

Release Date: June 20, 2025
Host: Ezra Klein
Episode Title: Is This America’s Golden Age? A Debate
Description: In this episode, Ezra Klein moderates a heated debate on whether the United States is entering a golden age. Featuring prominent voices from both sides, the discussion delves into economic policies, national security, social issues, and the overarching vision for America's future.

1. Introduction to the Debate

The episode opens with Ezra Klein introducing the topic: “Is this America’s golden age?” The debate format is structured around a motion stating, "Be it resolved: This is America's golden age." Participants include:

Pro Side:
- Kevin Roberts: President of the Heritage Foundation
- Kellyanne Conway: Former Senior Counselor to President Trump
Con Side:
- Ben Rhodes: Former Senior Advisor to President Obama and Co-host of Pod Save the World

Moderator’s Opening Remarks: The moderator sets the stage, highlighting the importance of civil discourse and the potential for minds to be swayed during the debate. An initial audience vote reveals 15% in favor and 85% opposed to the motion.

2. Opening Statements

Pro Side: Kevin Roberts ([04:40] – [10:47])

Kevin Roberts argues affirmatively that America is on the brink of a golden age. Key points include:

Dismantling the Administrative State: Roberts emphasizes the removal of bureaucratic barriers that previously stifled small and middle-class Americans.

“Instead, what happened over the last four years was that American society underwent a massive accelerating deterioration brought on by the left...” ([04:40])
Economic Reforms: He highlights the Trump administration's efforts to revitalize the American economy through deregulation and support for small businesses.

“...the same government shut the doors of our schools and churches... Instead, what happened... was that American society underwent a massive accelerating deterioration...” ([04:40])
Popularity of Trump: Roberts points out Trump's enduring popularity and the shift in public opinion favoring the current administration's policies.

“Donald Trump remains very popular. Over half of Americans as we sit here tonight say that the country is on the right track.” ([08:15])
Successes in Policy Implementation: He cites the universal school choice bill in Texas as a significant achievement addressing educational disparities.

“Two weeks ago, when the great state of Texas passed a universal school choice bill...” ([09:50])

Con Side: Ben Rhodes ([10:59] – [17:10])

Ben Rhodes presents a counter-argument, asserting that America is not experiencing a golden age. His main points include:

Economic Indicators: Rhodes highlights negative economic trends such as poor stock market performance, rising inflation, and declining public confidence.

“If America was entering a new golden age, you'd expect to see it somewhere, anywhere... inflation expectations are up, not down.” ([11:01])
Critique of Tariffs and Trade Policy: He argues that Trump's tariffs are detrimental, causing economic distortions and harming long-term growth.

“Tariffs have already set back growth. They've raised prices. They've destroyed the predictability and trust that trade depends upon.” ([13:30])
Social and Institutional Decay: Rhodes points to increased societal divisions, corruption, and the erosion of trust in institutions under the current administration.

“President Trump is creating a system that runs on corruption, where you can buy anything from a presidential pardon to financial deregulation.” ([12:10])
Impact on Global Relations: He emphasizes how Trump's policies alienate allies and set back international cooperation.

“It's not just that they often don't know how they work. It's that they don't see the parts that are working.” ([13:45])

3. Rebuttals

Pro Side: Kevin Roberts ([30:14] – [33:28])

Roberts rebuts Rhodes' points by asserting that the administration's actions are empowering the working class and dismantling ineffective bureaucratic structures.

“President Trump is using tariffs as a tool of statecraft on behalf of the working American.” ([33:00])

He defends the tariffs, arguing they are necessary for protecting American industries and reclaiming economic sovereignty.

Con Side: Ben Rhodes ([33:28] – [36:40])

Rhodes counters by illustrating how tariffs lead to global realignments away from the U.S., causing long-term economic and diplomatic harm.

“Countries will look elsewhere, most likely to China for trade. The so called big beautiful bill that is working its way through Congress right now would be the largest wealth transfer in our history to the rich.” ([35:29])

He further criticizes the administration's fiscal policies, highlighting unsustainable debt increases and tax cuts favoring the wealthy.

4. Discussion on Tariffs

Pro Side: Kellyanne Conway ([49:05] – [58:37])

Kellyanne Conway elaborates on the strategic use of tariffs as central to the administration's golden age vision. Key points include:

Protecting American Industries: Emphasizes tariffs as tools for ensuring vital industries remain competitive.

“Tariffs traditionally in the United States of America have been for two major purposes... protecting vital American industries.” ([49:05])
Incentivizing Behavioral Changes: Argues that tariffs compel foreign nations to adhere to fair trade practices.

“Tariffs serve the purpose of protecting vital American interests... and incentivizing transformative changes in behavior.” ([50:30])
Success Stories: Cites the reduction in illegal immigration and increased investments as evidence of positive outcomes from tariff policies.

“Illegal immigration has plummeted. Our border is again secure.” ([52:10])

Con Side: Ben Rhodes ([58:37] – [65:16])

Rhodes dismantles the pro-tariff arguments by highlighting their unintended consequences:

Global Realignment: Argues that tariffs drive countries to seek alternatives, weakening U.S. global influence.

“There is not a fentanyl problem on the northern border of the United States... Now, what are they going to do? ... They're going to try to get through it by building Trump golf courses.” ([51:36])
Economic Inefficiency: Points out that tariffs create market distortions, harming both consumers and businesses.

“Tariffs have already set back growth. They've raised prices. They've destroyed the predictability and trust that trade depends upon.” ([35:29])
Undermining Geopolitical Goals: Suggests that tariffs hinder strategic alliances and cooperation, especially with NATO allies.

“The administrative state... it is not going to bring us a golden age.” ([36:40])

5. National Security and Defense

Pro Side: Kevin Roberts ([65:52] – [73:05])

Roberts advocates for a “Fortress America,” emphasizing increased defense spending and burden-sharing among NATO allies to bolster national security.

“The United States cannot afford to be the world's peacekeeper. The European states, Canada as well, can no longer continue to build a welfare state that causes their fiscal crisis on the backs of the American taxpayer.” ([69:07])

He highlights the need for allies to increase their defense contributions, thereby reducing the fiscal burden on the U.S.

Con Side: Ben Rhodes ([62:11] – [83:22])

Rhodes argues that the fortress mentality undermines international alliances and encourages adversaries, weakening global security frameworks.

Erosion of Trust: Claims that threats to NATO allies’ sovereignty, such as Greenland, damage long-term alliances.

“...he's threatening to take the territory of somebody that we have a collective defense treaty with.” ([62:11])
Missed Opportunities for Cooperation: Emphasizes that tariffs and unilateral policies lead to global realignment away from the U.S.

“They are going to realign away from the United States. The Europeans are going to stop listening to us on China.” ([54:05])
Strategic Weaknesses: Points out that increased defense spending without strategic cooperation leads to inefficiencies and vulnerabilities.

“...what's happening right now is that the policies are driving the best people out of it.” ([35:30])

6. Environmental and Technological Concerns

Con Side: Ben Rhodes ([86:43] – [99:37])

Rhodes raises alarms over environmental policies and technological outsourcing under the Trump administration:

Environmental Rollbacks: Criticizes the dismantling of environmental protections and withdrawal from international agreements.

“We are pulling out of the Paris Agreement... we're actually dismantling FEMA.” ([86:43])
Technological Outsourcing: Warns that cutting clean energy investments and promoting outsourcing in AI and other technologies cedes future economic advantages to nations like China.

“We're allowing our AI to be outsourced to the highest bidder, in this case, the Emirates... they are putting a bunch of money to try and build a redundant Starlink.” ([99:37])

7. Closing Statements

Pro Side: Kellyanne Conway ([74:46] – [91:11])

Conway reiterates her optimism, highlighting economic growth, energy independence, and increased opportunities for small businesses as hallmarks of America's golden age.

“The golden age of America is upon us... It's the golden age of any free country where its individual citizens feel that they can elect those who represent them.” ([87:04])

She stresses the administration's role in fostering an environment where small businesses can thrive and emphasizes national security reforms.

Con Side: Ben Rhodes ([87:01] – [105:16])

Rhodes delivers a passionate closing argument against the motion:

Moral and Ethical Decline: Criticizes the administration for promoting division, corruption, and cruelty, undermining America's foundational values.

“The only way out is insisting upon the truth, not acquiescing to some propaganda that this is a golden age anywhere except a golden office.” ([99:37])
Future Challenges Ignored: Highlights neglect of critical issues like artificial intelligence, climate change, and social cohesion.

“A golden age would make people hopeful for the future, would address the challenges of the future... that isn't what is happening at all.” ([90:00])
Impact on Global Standing: Emphasizes how current policies weaken America's global influence and lead to the loss of valuable alliances and technological leadership.

“We are giving away our values, we are giving away our national unity... Donald Trump doesn't even want to bring the country together.” ([99:37])

8. Final Vote and Outcome

The debate concludes with a final audience vote, showing a marginal increase in support for the motion:

Before Debate: 15% in favor, 85% opposed
After Debate: 15% + 1% = 16% in favor, 84% opposed

Result: The con side (against the motion) remains overwhelmingly favored, with a technical victory for the pro side by a single percentage point.

“We have a technical, technical victory. Maybe we could shake hands on it and call it a kind of friendly draw.” ([104:31])

Notable Quotes

Kevin Roberts ([04:40]):
“...we are at the dawn of America's golden age.”
Ben Rhodes ([11:01]):
“If America was entering a new golden age, you'd expect to see it somewhere, anywhere.”
Kellyanne Conway ([49:05]):
“Tariffs serve the purpose of protecting vital American interests, vital American industries.”
Ben Rhodes ([35:29]):
“Tariffs have already set back growth. They've raised prices. They've destroyed the predictability and trust that trade depends upon.”
Kellyanne Conway ([74:46]):
“The golden age of America is upon us...”
Ben Rhodes ([99:37]):
“The only way out is insisting upon the truth, not acquiescing to some propaganda that this is a golden age anywhere except a golden office.”

Conclusion

The debate between Kevin Roberts and Kellyanne Conway defending the notion of America’s golden age, and Ben Rhodes contesting it, presents a clear divide in perspectives. While the pro side emphasizes economic reforms, deregulation, and national security enhancements as indicators of a forthcoming golden age, the con side counters with concerns over economic instability, social divisions, environmental degradation, and weakened international alliances. The overwhelming audience vote against the motion underscores skepticism about the notion that America is currently in its golden age.

For listeners seeking to understand the complexities and differing viewpoints surrounding America's trajectory, this debate offers a comprehensive exploration of the factors influencing whether the U.S. is indeed entering a period of unprecedented prosperity and unity or grappling with significant challenges that undermine such a prospect.