The Ezra Klein Show

Guest: Patti Smith
Episode: Patti Smith on the One Desire That Lasts Forever
Date: November 18, 2025
Host: Ezra Klein

Episode Overview

In this deeply reflective episode, Ezra Klein speaks with the legendary musician, poet, and writer Patti Smith about the through-lines of her life: wonder, creativity, empathy, and the hard-earned wisdom that comes from a lifetime of making art. Drawing from Smith’s latest memoir "Bread of Angels" as well as her classic "Just Kids," their wide-ranging conversation touches on the formation of selfhood, the nature of creative calling, grappling with loss, staying true to one’s work, and possessing what Smith calls the “one desire that lasts forever.”

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Childhood and the Roots of Communion

• Early Experiences with Nature and “Other Worlds”

  • Smith describes herself as an imaginative, unusual child, open to communion with nature, animals, and siblings (04:02).
  • A formative story: At age 5 or 6, Smith communed wordlessly with a snapping turtle at a pond, losing track of time and deeply worrying her family (04:02–05:53).
  • “It wasn’t unnatural to me because I communed with my siblings that way, without words. … It seemed totally natural to commune with an animal, a dog, a massive snapping turtle, your brother or sister, without words.” – Patti Smith (04:32)

• Family Dynamics and Empathy

  • Smith’s mother, fearful after the Lindbergh kidnapping, was reactive; her father was supportive and curious, encouraging her to develop her mind and pursue answers (10:05–12:04).
  • “He believed that the mind was a country, and you had to develop it. … That idea always stayed with me.” – Patti Smith (11:43)

2. The Artistic Calling

• Defining Moments with Art and Literature

  • A visit to the Philadelphia Museum of Art at age 12 exposed Smith to Picasso, sparking her lifelong desire to be an artist (14:14–16:01).
  • “[Picasso’s paintings] struck me so deeply, as if I was struck by lightning in my heart or something. It was completely unexpected, like love at first sight.” – Patti Smith (14:44)

• Formative Books and Characters

  • Smith cites “Pinocchio,” “Peter Pan,” and “Little Women” as crucial influences, attuned to themes of redemption, hope, and self-determination (19:42).

3. On Fairy Tales, Darkness, and Children’s Literature

• Smith and Klein discuss how the stories read to children have changed, from the grim (Grimm) tales and Old Testament stories to today’s lighter fare, and reflect on the virtues and challenges of exposing children to darkness and complexity (21:02–25:09).
• “I think that kids really have the ability… we knew things weren’t real… the realm of childhood was akin to imagination and fantasy.” – Patti Smith (22:28)

4. The “One Desire That Lasts Forever”

• The Desire for Wisdom
  • A passage from a book of harsh fairy tales imbued Smith as a child: “All desires save one are fleeting, but that one lasts forever. That was the desire for wisdom.” (26:06–26:44)
  • When the character is asked what to do with wisdom: “I would make a poem.”
• On Poetry’s Power
  • “For me, true poetry… can distill everything, like a teardrop, like a drop of water.” – Patti Smith (28:19)

5. New York in the Late 1960s and 1970s

• The Birth of an Artistic Scene
  • Smith recalls arriving in New York and experiencing “freedom” – the city as a place where “nobody cared” about how you looked or your background (31:42–34:06).
• Housing, Gentrification, and Loss of Possibility
  • Discussion of how affordable housing made the scene possible, and how greed and real-estate dynamics have made it impossible for similar artistic communities to thrive now (34:35–39:21).

6. The Legendary Downtown Scene

• The ferment of 60s/70s New York: inclusivity, music, political activism, and the intersection of misfits, artists, and outcasts (40:16–43:00).
• “New York was filled with misfits, people that weren’t accepted in, including myself or Robert [Mapplethorpe]… What had brought us together? I think it started with music.” – Patti Smith (40:54)

7. The Role of Art and the Artist

• Smith reflects on the cultural seriousness with which art, music, and poetry were once received and laments the nostalgia trap, affirming that new things are always being done (43:00–46:56).
• “Art was like the jewel in our crown.” – Patti Smith (45:23)

8. Identities: Poet, Worker, Performer

• On Not Being a ‘Musician’
  • Smith insists she is not a musician, but a performer and a worker who is always developing her craft (48:16–49:36).
  • “You want to call me something, call me a worker, because that’s what I do. I work every day and try to do the best work I can.” – Patti Smith (48:53)
• Performing Horses
  • Touring in celebration of the 50th anniversary of her album “Horses,” Smith describes her goal to make each performance special and to honor both joy and loss (54:08).

9. Choosing the Obscure Life

• Turning Away from Fame
  • Smith explains why she left the limelight to raise a family in Michigan: “I wasn't evolving as an artist… I wanted to do something important, hopefully, or something of worth. … I left public life behind so I could really get a sense of who I was, what I wanted, and to evolve as a human being…” (59:48–61:34).

10. The Mystery of Creative Work

• The Process and the Muse
  • Smith speaks of a recurring phrase in her recent book, “Rebel hump,” as a kind of muse or mystery: “The essence of it, which for me is probably one’s deepest creative source, one’s imagination.” (66:36)
  • On writing: “It’s like a muscle that you have to exercise every day… I got to the point where I could not not write.” (67:49)
• Receiving Wisdom
  • “Some things come to you. Other things you labor for, you study for. But this other magical realm, you can’t really summon it.” – Patti Smith (70:01)
  • Klein and Smith discuss the “alchemy” of art: the transformation from input and study to the arrival of something mysterious and new (71:20–73:44).

11. Listening to the Inner Voice Amid the World’s Noise

• Smith describes her faith in her calling, learning to nourish and protect her inner voice, even amidst worldly despair, noise, and distraction (74:48–76:39).
• “I have also the same calling as I did when I was young to nourish and to do the work that I believe I was given the possibility to do. And I’m not going to let anything shake that faith.” – Patti Smith (76:03)

12. The Nature and Color of the Soul

• Smith, reflecting on the questions she asked her mother as a child, says:
  • “I believe [the soul is] the color of water... I believe in the soul. I believe it’s an energy that I like to believe will keep traveling even when breath is gone.” (76:56)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Communing with the World:
  • “I used to speak with William Burroughs… He saw it as very shamanistic… I think it’s also just a form of empathy. Empathy, imagination. … It’s a blessing that I have.” – Patti Smith (06:05–07:37)
• Echoes of Loss and Celebration:
  • “So many people are gone… all these people… then they come back with such force. … Despite that, I feel also the joy of celebration and happy to be here, happy to be physically able to do it…” – Patti Smith (54:08)
• On Measuring Worth:
  • “I want to write a book as good as Pinocchio. I want to write one book where I can look at it and go, this deserves the trees that were sacrificed for it.” – Patti Smith (65:43)
• On the Soul:
  • “I believe it’s the color of water.” – Patti Smith (76:56)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Commune with Nature & Tortoise Story: 04:02–05:53
• Family & Developing the Mind: 10:05–12:04
• Artistic Awakening at Museum: 14:14–16:01
• Impact of Books on Young Smith: 19:42–21:02
• On Fairy Tales, Darkness, Children: 22:20–25:09
• Wisdom and Poetry from Fairy Tales: 26:06–28:19
• Smith’s New York Arrival & Freedom: 31:42–34:06
• Affordable Housing & Gentrification: 34:35–39:21
• What Made the Art Scene Special: 40:16–46:56
• Smith as Worker/Performer: 48:16–49:36
• Performing ‘Horses’ 50 Years Later: 54:08
• Turning Away from Fame: 59:48–61:34
• Writing Process & The ‘Rebel Hump’: 62:17–66:36
• On the Creative Process/Receiving Words: 70:01–73:44
• Listening to the Internal Voice: 74:48–76:39
• Nature and Color of the Soul: 76:56

Recommended Books by Patti Smith (78:04)

1. Pinocchio – “That was always my dream. If I could write a book as good as Pinocchio, then I could say, okay, I did my job. So I’m still working on it.”
2. Frankenstein by Mary Shelley
3. Poetry of Sylvia Plath
4. 2666 by Roberto Bolaño – “Our first 21st-century masterpiece.”

Final Thoughts

This moving and wide-ranging conversation explores not just the arc of Patti Smith's life, but the universal questions of calling, creativity, and meaning. Smith’s earnestness, humility, and wisdom animate every minute. Listeners come away with a deepened sense of the beauty and challenge of living a creative life, and of holding fast to what remains important, even as times change.

For full understanding, please refer to the episode timestamps for highlighted sections and direct quotations.