The Ezra Klein Show: “Spencer Cox Wants to Pull Our Politics Back From the Brink”

Date: September 19, 2025
Host: Ezra Klein (New York Times Opinion)
Guest: Utah Governor Spencer Cox

Overview

In this urgent post-assassination moment, Ezra Klein speaks with Republican Governor Spencer Cox of Utah about the aftermath of Charlie Kirk’s murder, political violence, and how America could find a different path through escalating division. Cox has prioritized de-escalation and political civility for years, and here he unpacks the stakes of where America is—and what might come next. The conversation weaves through personal, political, philosophical, and policy-oriented reflections, with frank insights and warnings about the dangers of polarization, the role of media and technology, and what it means to “disagree better” even in dark times.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recounting the Assassination and Immediate Aftermath

• Day of the incident: Cox recalls the day Charlie Kirk was shot in Utah, detailing the confusion, pressure from the White House, and challenges of managing information and response.
  • "There's a fog of war when it comes to these types of events... and you can't trust any information you get early on." (06:27, Cox)
• Personal response: He highlights a sense of heartbreak for Kirk’s family and anxiety for his own state:
  • “We really pride ourselves on trying to be a little different... trying to be peacemakers... and you’re like, please, just not here. How could this happen here?” (09:02, Cox)

2. The Unique Dangers of Political Violence

• Political violence, Cox argues, shakes the foundation of democracy:
  • “While it was an attack on an individual, it is broader than that. It is an attack on all of us. It is an attack on our ideals… If someone out there just decided not to run for office because they’re fearful for their safety… then we are truly broken.” (32:13, Cox)
• Klein and Cox discuss the distinct threat of assassination in the era of polarized nationalized media.

3. The Acceleration of Polarization and Loss of Civil Discourse

• Historical perspective: Klein references the 1960s and worries that today’s hyperpolarization and media speed make violence more destabilizing:
  • “My nightmare scenario is something like the 60s, but with today's hyperpolarized parties, hyperpolarized media, hyperpolarized social media.” (10:40, Klein)
• Cox describes expert research showing the U.S. “blowing through all those checkpoints towards some very serious division.” (03:30, Cox)

4. The Search for Motive and Its Dangers

• Klein questions whether knowing the killer's ideology actually helps, or if it just deepens division:
  • “What is knowing a lone gunman’s motive tell us and not tell us?” (14:18, Klein)
• Cox calls for transparency but argues against ascribing group guilt or shutting down free speech in response to violence:
  • “Every person is responsible for their own actions.” (17:56, Cox)
  • “I don’t think you can remove a radical ideology through just pure repression or government enforcement. I think it’s going to take more speech and more sunlight and more disagreement, more words and less violence.” (20:03, Cox)

5. The Attacks on Dialogue and ‘Disagree Better’

• Cox reflects on attacks he’s received from both left and right over his push to ‘disagree better’:
  • On the right: “‘You just want us to get along...to capitulate.’ That’s not what I meant at all.”
  • On the left: “‘Why should I talk to those people? Why would I engage with those people?’ And as Charlie said, I actually do believe that is more dangerous.”
  • “If you don’t like Charlie Kirk, what comes after Charlie Kirk is going to be far, far worse.” (21:28, Cox)

6. Critiques From the Left: Are Some Differences Too Deep?

• Klein expresses leftward criticism—concern that calls for dialogue “sanitized” Kirk’s more extreme or offensive positions:
  • “You’re sanitizing this guy who bussed people to January 6th protests...there’s a side of him that did dialogue, although some people feel he weaponized it.” (27:22, Klein)
• Cox responds by emphasizing the importance of strong disagreement within a functioning society and warns against online culture distorting public debate:
  • "The truth of the matter is...a lot of people had never heard of Charlie Kirk before this happened. And I think we forget that." (28:38, Cox)

7. Nationalized Media, Decline of Local Community, and Loneliness

• Klein and Cox agree that the loss of local politics and media, and the nationalization of outrage, drive polarization:
  • “All politics is national… You show up to a local school board meeting and they're talking about something that's happening in New York or a school district in Virginia.” (40:30, Cox)
• Cox points to “the loneliness epidemic” — the collapse of local community and organizations as a root driver of division.
  • “If I don't have any real friends in my town, at least I can hate the same people together on Facebook.” (40:56, Cox)

8. Social Media, Young People, and the Case for Regulation

• Cox positions himself as a “tech optimist” turned skeptic, having helped pass some of the strictest state-level social media regulation:
  • “We passed some of the most comprehensive social media legislation in the country...It’s a decision we’ve made to allow these companies to hijack our kids in ways we would never allow in any other way.” (48:50, Cox)
  • He compares tech companies to tobacco and opioid industries in terms of addictiveness and harm.

9. What Can Individuals and Leaders Do?

• Individual action: Cox insists on the importance of real community and offline life:
  • “I hope that people will build community...join a faith, a congregation...find a group, a positive tribe that is doing good in this world… The virtual world is not real life and we need the real world.” (51:52, Cox)
• Leadership action: He discusses research showing polarization can decline when leaders appear together in respectful disagreement:
  • “What they found was that one of the things that can deescalate...were having politicians on stage together or on camera together talking about how they disagreed without hating each other.” (54:26, Cox)

10. Structural Politics and the Case for Federalism

• Cox critiques the nationalization of presidential politics and loss of federalism, which he argues has made every election feel existential:
  • "The stakes of these presidential elections are so fever pitch...but California should be very different than Utah, and it shouldn't be...if Kamala Harris wins, then the whole country is going to be like California." (34:32, Cox)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the sense of national crisis:
  Ezra Klein: “My nightmare scenario is something like the 60s, but with today’s hyperpolarized parties, media, social media.” (10:40)

• On the human cost of violence:
  Spencer Cox: “If you didn’t feel something like that… then there’s something broken inside of us.” (12:04)

• On dialogue vs. repression:
  Cox: “You can’t remove a radical ideology through just pure repression...It’s going to take more speech and more sunlight and more disagreement.” (20:03)

• On the challenge of “disagreeing better”:
  Cox: “If you don’t like Charlie Kirk, what comes after Charlie Kirk is going to be far, far worse.” (21:28)

• On loneliness and politics:
  Cox: “If I don’t have any real friends in my town, at least I can hate the same people together on Facebook.” (40:56)

• On regulation of tech:
  Cox: “I believe these tech companies with trillion dollar market caps combined are doing the same thing the tobacco companies did... We have a moral responsibility to stand up, to hold them accountable and to take back our free will.” (48:50)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Political crisis and assassination (01:03–06:27)
• Dangers & drivers of polarization (03:30–06:11; 10:40–13:45)
• “Disagree Better” and reactions from left and right (21:28–24:52)
• Debating nationalization of politics and media (38:13–44:07)
• Online life, loneliness, and policy (45:46–51:26)
• What leaders and individuals can do (51:26–54:26)
• Book recommendations (55:49–57:35)

Book Recommendations (56:28)

1. Our Biggest Fight by Frank McCourt (on tech, regulation, and agency)
2. A Time to Build and American Covenant by Yuval Levin (on institutions and the Constitution)
3. The Pursuit of Happiness by Jeffrey Rosen (on America’s philosophy of responsibility and virtue)

Tone & Language

Throughout, the tone is earnest, reflective, and at times somber—matching the stakes of the discussion, but also laced with a sense of possibility and moral urgency. Cox and Klein are thoughtful, honest about their own struggles, and willing to consider critiques from all sides. Cox combines pragmatic governance with a philosophical streak, emphasizing both realpolitik and ideals.

Summary Takeaway

This episode delivers a nuanced, deeply-felt analysis of how America could respond, or fail to respond, to a moment of rising political violence. It’s not simply a call for bipartisanship—but a plea to recover both the art of serious disagreement and the practical community-building that sustains democracy. Governor Cox is clear-eyed about the dangers ahead, and insistent that agency—personal, political, collective—remains the only path forward.