The Ezra Klein Show

Episode: "Ta-Nehisi Coates on Bridging Gaps vs. Drawing Lines"
Date: September 28, 2025
Host: Ezra Klein
Guest: Ta-Nehisi Coates

Overview

In this candid, searching conversation, Ezra Klein and writer Ta-Nehisi Coates wrestle with a central dilemma facing the American left: how to balance the urgent need to bridge divides and build political coalitions with the moral imperative to draw clear lines against hate and dehumanization. The discussion unfolds against the backdrop of political violence, the assassination of right-wing figure Charlie Kirk, and a recent public disagreement between Klein and Coates over how those moments should be handled—both in public mourning and in reckoning with a divisive legacy.

The episode explores big, unsettled questions:

• Is it naïve to believe in coalition politics in today's climate?
• At what point does engagement become complicity?
• How do history, power, and a sense of tradition shape the way we approach losing and fighting back?
• What roles should writers, politicians, and activists play?
• What does it actually mean, practically and ethically, to win?

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Disagreement over Mourning Charlie Kirk ([03:38]–[08:38])

• Coates’s Critique: Coates challenges Klein’s initial column after Kirk’s assassination, arguing that it painted Kirk too generously.

  • “There was something off about what I knew about this guy and the presentation of him as ... a paragon of politics and how politics should be done.” ([04:20], Coates)
  • Coates distinguishes between mourning violence and sanitizing a legacy, emphasizing that Kirk’s politics were rooted in slurs, exclusion, and hate.

• Klein’s Response: Klein defends his choice to focus on grief in the immediate aftermath.

  • "My instinct then is to just sit with them in their grief … That’s not my view of the person's whole legacy. But ... going to people when they're grieving ... saying, listen, I want to tell you really what I thought of your friend just feels ... not what you do in a kind of a community." ([06:01], Klein)
  • Both men agree that political violence is chilling, and that mourning violence is essential—but Klein sees a chance to “cool things down,” while Coates warns against distancing from a person's real impact.

2. The Power of Hate, the Nature of Losing, and Historical Perspective ([08:38]–[13:19])

• Coates: "I believe it's a powerful, powerful, unifying force. And I think Charlie Kirk was a hate monger … I have a politic that rejects violence, that rejects political violence. I take no joy in the killing of anyone, no matter what they said. But if you ask me what the truth of his life was ... I would have to tell you it’s hate." ([09:24], Coates)

• Klein worries that referencing "backlash" doesn’t suffice; he insists on interrogating why the left loses and how strategic error contributes. Coates counters with a longer historical view rooted in struggle and continuity.

  • “[My ancestors] fought ... for the destruction of chattel slavery ... and they never saw it ... they died in defeat, in darkness. ... It is not that things will necessarily be better in my lifetime, but that I will make the contribution that I am supposed to make.” ([11:00], Coates)

3. Has the Left Written People Off? The Limits (and Need) of Political Coalition ([13:19]–[24:17])

• Deplorables Moment: Klein raises Hillary Clinton's infamous “basket of deplorables” comment as an inflection point. He uses it to argue that the left began “writing people off,” shrinking the political tent, and disengaging from persuasion.

  • “The work of politics—of bridging over ... moral disagreements—became somewhat demeaned, diminished ... it began to seem like ... a betrayal.” ([17:27], Klein)

• Coates rejects the language but not the reality of powerful, hate-fueled movements. He recounts the strength and cost of maintaining hope and struggle, given that violence and loss are recurring features for black Americans.

4. The Role of Intellectuals vs. Politicians ([24:49]–[50:45])

• Differentiation of Roles: Deep discussion on whether writers and public intellectuals have obligations different from politicians.

  • Coates: “My expectations for the rhetoric of writers, intellectuals, journalists is very, very different than ... people who expect to hold office.” ([16:57], Coates)
  • Klein: Wonders whether the left (including its intellectuals) offers enough strategic discipline and respect for the old-fashioned work of coalition-building.
  • Coates: “I have a basic level of respect that I accord to everybody ... But ... I can't ever stand by and watch somebody ... in the name of unity ... act like [dehumanizing rhetoric] is not happening.” ([28:57], Coates)

• Drawing Lines vs. Bridging Gaps: Where do you draw the line—“You can't hurl epithets at people. You're out if you do that. ... That’s actually a basic value that most people have.” ([36:12], Coates)

5. What If Most Voters Cross the Line? Majoritarian Dilemmas ([38:14]–[44:51])

• Klein: “The president ... is a person who ... should be on the other side of the line.” ([38:14], Klein) Now, “that means ... a lot of people who are willing to accept things that I thought we would have found unacceptable.”
  • He asks, “What happens if you don't believe that ... if you don't control the line? ... I've been asking the question without really having an answer of what follows from that.” ([39:40], Klein)
• Coates: “Welcome to Black America. That's our history. The line we have drawn ... has not been majoritarian politics.” ([40:40], Coates)
• They discuss Trump’s increased share among Black voters, with Coates offering historical context, noting the consistent presence of conservatism within the Black community.

6. The Realities of Coalition Politics: When, Where, and For Whom Do You Compromise? ([44:51]–[67:38])

• Klein: Raises the provocative idea of running pro-life Democrats in deep red states as a necessary, if uncomfortable, strategy for coalition-building.

  • “In 2010, when the Affordable Care Act passed, there were 40 House Democrats who are pro life ... On the bright side, you don't have to have those negotiations now. On the downside, you can't pass the Affordable Care Act.” ([59:58], Klein)

• Coates Pushback: “The problem with musing about that is ... abandoning it is a very real possibility for people who don't have the [means] to fly to another state ... If you're gonna say that, I think you really gotta put the data behind it.” ([63:12], Coates)

• Balance between inside and outside the tent: Coates shares his discomfort defending Kamala Harris’s positions on Palestine to various communities—stressing that moral dissonance and hard conversations are unavoidable parts of political engagement.

  • “For me, politics is the lesser of two evils ... We have never had the luxury of electing people that represented the best of us ... When I made those conversations ... I had to be buttoned up about it.” ([65:48], Coates)
  • He urges Klein to be just as attuned to the fears and vulnerabilities of those "inside the tent" as to the importance of expanding it.

7. Final Reflections: The Endurance of Struggle & Urgency for Strategic Renewal ([67:38]–End)

• Klein: “The role I want to have is a person curiously exploring his political and intellectual interests in political peacetime ... and the role I somehow have ... is in the business of political persuasion ... and I feel like [we] have failed in a really consequential way.” ([57:48], Klein)

• Coates: “It's not a fatalistic view ... but you understand that losing is a possibility.” ([55:21], Coates)

• Klein: “We are of the nature to … [lose]. And I think the place I’m trying to push is, then how then shall we live?” ([57:14], Klein)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the paradox of mourning and responsibility:

  • “I always think it's important to differentiate how people die versus how they live.” ([04:20], Coates)

• On history’s repeating (but not fatalistic) cycles:

  • “It is not the worst [time].” ([70:45], Coates)
  • “We are not happy, but we are not surprised, man.” ([55:21], Coates)

• On coalition politics:

  • “Before I think people will give you power, they don’t even ask, do they like you? They ask whether you like them.” ([62:55], Klein)

• On the necessity to defend vulnerable communities:

  • “I can't ever ... in the name of unity ... act like that's not happening, because there are real consequences.” ([28:57], Coates)

• On enduring struggle:

  • “The privilege that I draw out of this ... is not that things will necessarily be better in my lifetime, but that I will make the contribution that I am supposed to make.” ([11:00], Coates)

• On being forced to re-evaluate strategy:

  • “I think we are here now ... and it is forcing me to rethink things I would prefer not to rethink.” ([58:43], Klein)

• On intellectual vs. political roles:

  • “The role of politicians and the role of writers, intellectuals, et cetera, is very, very different.” ([50:18], Coates)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:38] Introduction to the central disagreement about response to Charlie Kirk’s assassination
• [08:38] Hate as a political force; the historical endurance of loss and struggle
• [13:19] Klein’s push for honest reckoning with political loss
• [15:42] Clinton’s “deplorables” and the left's shrinking political tent
• [28:27] Coates on the imperative to respect both adversaries and vulnerable communities
• [36:09] Where are the lines? Who defines them, and what happens if we lose control?
• [41:02] Discussion of Trump’s appeal among Black voters; majoritarian dilemmas
• [57:42] Klein and Coates reflect on their respective roles and responsibilities amid political defeat
• [65:43] Compromise, coalition, and tough political choices
• [70:50] Recommended books from Ta-Nehisi Coates

Book Recommendations ([70:50])

1. The Brothers by Stephen Kinzer – Biography of Allen and John Foster Dulles, U.S. foreign policy, and postwar power.
2. Race and Reunion by David Blight – How America forgets (and distorts) the Civil War and its legacy.
3. Sirens Call by Chris Hayes – On media, attention, and contemporary social challenges.

Tone & Language

The conversation is reflective, occasionally raw, and deeply personal. Both speakers are analytical, but neither shies from strong emotional stakes—for themselves and the communities they serve. The tone is urgent, skeptical, and yet determined—marked by a mix of historical gravity and present-day anxiety. Both value clarity, plain speech, and the responsibility that comes with a public voice.

Summary Takeaway

Klein and Coates circle the difference between compromise and complicity, between seeing people as changeable and naming lines that must not be crossed. The moment feels desperate, but both men ultimately reiterate the necessity of struggle, vigilance, and the value of making strategic, sometimes uncomfortable choices in an unruly democracy—always with a keen eye on history and on those most vulnerable to politics done badly.