Summary of "The Dark Heart of Trump's Foreign Policy"

Podcast: The Ezra Klein Show
Host: Ezra Klein, New York Times Opinion
Guest: Fareed Zakaria, Host of GPS on CNN, Washington Post Columnist, Author of Age of Revolutions
Release Date: March 1, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of The Ezra Klein Show, Ezra Klein engages in a deep and analytical conversation with Fareed Zakaria to dissect and understand the nuances of former President Donald Trump's foreign policy, often referred to as the "Trump Doctrine." The discussion delves into Trump's approach to international relations, trade policies, alliances, and the broader implications for the global order.

Defining the Trump Doctrine

Fareed Zakaria begins by highlighting the complexity of pinning down a singular "Trump Doctrine" due to Trump's mercurial nature. However, he identifies a consistent worldview centered around the rejection of the open international system that the U.S. and Europe have built post-World War II.

• Zakaria (03:29): “Trump wants to seriously renegotiate or perhaps even redo that system.”

Ezra Klein echoes this sentiment, contrasting Trump's perspective with the traditional view that America benefits from a rules-based international order. He points out that Trump's stance pivots on leveraging America's inherent power without adhering strictly to established international norms.

• Klein (05:27): “What Trump is doing is systematically searching out the strength America has, the ways we can wield our weight and leverage, and untying our hands from behind our back.”

Tariffs and Trade Policies

The conversation shifts to Trump's use of tariffs as a tool for both economic and political objectives. Zakaria discusses Trump's protectionist tendencies and his love for the unilateral power to impose tariffs, which traditionally would be a congressional prerogative.

• Zakaria (11:17): “Trump loves wielding this weapon... It is an extraordinary, unilateral exercise of huge American power.”

Klein critiques the incoherence in the administration's tariff policies, questioning their longevity and objectives—whether they aim to onshore manufacturing, raise revenue, or simply bully smaller nations for concessions.

• Klein (10:07): “What are they doing, man?”

Zakaria warns that while Trump’s tariffs might offer minor short-term gains, they risk fracturing alliances and escalating global protectionism without substantial benefits.

• Zakaria (10:07): “The result of Trump inaction, the Trump dollar doctrine in action has been a war on America's allies.”

Impact on Alliances and International Order

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the erosion of longstanding alliances, particularly within Europe. Zakaria articulates how Trump's transactional approach undermines the trust and cooperation that have been foundational to the Western alliance system.

• Zakaria (32:08): “Now you have in America a party on ideology that says, yes, that's right, that's..."

Klein posits that figures like J.D. Vance and Elon Musk are instrumental in reshaping Republican foreign policy away from traditional alliances toward ideologically aligned regimes, even aligning more closely with authoritarian leaders.

• Klein (27:30): “Justin Trudeau does that the nature of the alliances they're seeking is a nature of regimes that have genuine ideological affinity for who Trump is...”

Zakaria expands on this, comparing current trends to historical alliances like the Three Emperors League, suggesting that Trump's approach fosters illiberal democracies and aligns the U.S. more closely with regimes that reject Western liberalism.

• Zakaria (34:45): “Illiberal Democracy... That's what we want to be... we need to hold back all this kind of godless, reckless, libertine liberalism...”

Foreign Policy Towards Ukraine and Russia

Klein probes into Trump's inconsistent policies regarding Ukraine and Russia. Initially, Trump appeared open to negotiations with Putin, even suggesting sanctions and tariffs as leverage. However, recent shifts have seen him disparage Ukrainian President Zelenskyy and side with Russia in certain UN resolutions.

• Zakaria (23:15): “He thinks that the Russians should keep the territory they've acquired. He thinks Ukraine should not be a part of NATO...”

Klein expresses skepticism about Trump's genuine understanding of the Ukraine-Russia conflict, suggesting that Trump may undervalue Ukraine's strategic importance to the U.S.

• Klein (24:46): “I think he thinks Ukraine is worthless to the US...”

Zakaria concludes that Trump's fluctuating stance sends mixed signals internationally, potentially weakening NATO's cohesion and emboldening adversarial nations.

• Zakaria (37:11): “NATO has essentially been eroded already... Europeans in no doubt that if Lithuania were attacked... there is almost no chance that Donald Trump would do everything it took to defend Lithuania.”

Attitude Towards China

The discussion shifts to Trump's approach to China, noting a departure from his initial aggressive rhetoric. While Trump's first term was marked by hostility and substantial tariffs against China, his current stance appears more conciliatory, emphasizing deals and improved relations.

• Zakaria (45:02): “He seems to be much less even rhetorically hostile toward China. My inclination is to go where you're going. He wants to deal with China.”

Zakaria sees potential benefits in a more cooperative relationship but warns of China's possible military buildup and the destabilizing effects it could have globally.

• Zakaria (47:36): “China is probably going to quadruple the number of nuclear weapons it has in the next 10 years... That can be very destabilizing.”

Views on Israel and Gaza

Ezra Klein raises unexpected elements of Trump's proposals, such as the annexation of Gaza, which diverge sharply from traditional U.S. foreign policy.

• Zakaria (50:13): “...this has spread to their views on the West Bank as well... essentially ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the West Bank.”

Klein critiques the moral implications of such proposals, emphasizing their potential to exacerbate conflicts and reinforce extremist positions on both sides.

• Klein (52:42): “...the administration hates them and wants to demonize them and wants them to go to the private sector where they'll be more productive.”

Cuts to USAID and Foreign Aid

The conversation delves into the administration's approach to foreign aid, particularly the significant cuts to USAID. Zakaria expresses concern over the dismantling of USAID, highlighting its vital role in humanitarian efforts and soft power.

• Zakaria (67:37): “Foreign aid barely existed before 1945. It's one of these revolutions of foreign policy that America in large part initiated.”

Klein argues that these cuts reflect a devaluation of non-American lives and undermine the United States' global standing and humanitarian impact.

• Klein (74:02): “The value of foreign lives is not nothing... the message here is they don't and we shouldn't.”

Zakaria defends USAID's mission, emphasizing its contributions to global well-being and the personal dedication of its workforce.

• Zakaria (74:40): “These people... are doing it because they believe that the United States can have a kind of positive impact on the world.”

Recommended Readings

In the closing segment, Fareed Zakaria recommends three insightful books for listeners interested in understanding the intricacies of international relations and the historical context of America's foreign policy:

1. "The Jungle Grows Back" by Robert Kagan
   Explores the resurgence of realpolitik and its implications for the international order.

2. "Diplomacy" by Henry Kissinger
   A comprehensive history of diplomacy from the 17th century to the late 20th century, offering insights into strategic international relations.

3. "The Wise Men" by Walter Isaacson and Evan Thomas
   Chronicles the lives of six key figures who shaped post-World War II American foreign policy.

• Zakaria (81:02): “It's a wonderful read... I have a particular affection for it.”

Conclusion

Ezra Klein and Fareed Zakaria's discussion paints a comprehensive picture of Donald Trump's foreign policy, highlighting its departure from traditional American diplomacy towards a more transactional and ideologically driven approach. This shift poses significant challenges for established alliances, the international order, and global stability. The episode underscores the profound impact of leadership styles on international relations and the future trajectory of U.S. foreign policy.

Notable Quotes:

• Ezra Klein (05:27): “What Trump is doing is systematically searching out the strength America has, the ways we can wield our weight and leverage, and untying our hands from behind our back.”

• Fareed Zakaria (11:17): “It is an extraordinary, unilateral exercise of huge American power.”

• Fareed Zakaria (32:08): “Illiberal Democracy... We need to hold back all this kind of godless, reckless, libertine liberalism...”

• Ezra Klein (24:46): “I think he thinks Ukraine is worthless to the US...”

• Fareed Zakaria (74:40): “These people... are doing it because they believe that the United States can have a kind of positive impact on the world.”

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key points, insights, and conclusions from the episode, providing a clear understanding for those who haven't listened to the podcast.