The Ezra Klein Show: The Hidden Politics of Disorder
Host: Ezra Klein
Guest: Charles Fain Lehman, Fellow at the Manhattan Institute
Release Date: October 18, 2024

In this insightful episode of The Ezra Klein Show, host Ezra Klein engages in a deep conversation with Charles Fain Lehman, a fellow at the Manhattan Institute, exploring the intricate dynamics between crime, public perception, and political strategies in major American cities. The discussion delves into the decline of violent crime, the persistent gap between statistical realities and public beliefs, the role of policing, and the evolving landscape of drug policies. Below is a comprehensive summary of their dialogue, structured into clear sections with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

1. Public Perception vs. Crime Statistics

Ezra Klein begins by highlighting a paradox: despite violent crime rates declining to their lowest levels in over five decades by 2023, Gallup found that 77% of Americans believed that crime was increasing (00:22). This discrepancy between perception and reality is pervasive, especially in cities like San Francisco and New York.

Lehman acknowledges that while crime statistics are imperfect—acknowledging underreporting rates—"the trends that are showing up in the FBI's crime numbers are real" (04:31). He attributes the 2020 spike in violent crime to the COVID-19 pandemic and the subsequent social unrest following George Floyd's murder, suggesting that reduced social control and aggressive protest movements contributed to the rise (06:20).

2. Role of Political Parties and Policy Shifts

Klein observes a shift within the Democratic Party from advocating for criminal justice reform and defunding the police in 2020 to now leaders like Kamala Harris presenting themselves as strong law enforcement figures (04:22). Lehman explains that major cities are re-emphasizing public safety, with policies such as bonuses for police officers and electing mayors with tough-on-crime platforms (06:20).

3. Conceptual Distinction: Crime vs. Disorder

The conversation distinguishes between violent crimes, which have seen a decline, and disorderly behaviors, which persist and impact public perception. Lehman defines disorder as "the domination of public space for private purposes" (22:50), encompassing activities like public drug use, homelessness, and minor offenses such as shoplifting.

4. Homelessness and Public Disorder

Klein shares personal observations from San Francisco and New York, where visible signs of homelessness—public urination, open drug use, and encampments—create a strong sense of disorder despite lower violent crime rates. Lehman points out that while homelessness contributes to public disorder, it is not the sole factor, as disorderly behaviors exist among both homeless and housed populations (20:46).

5. Drug Policy and Its Evolution

The discussion shifts to the changing nature of the drug crisis, emphasizing a transition from addiction concerns to a surge in overdose deaths due to synthetic opioids like fentanyl. Lehman argues that this represents a technological shift in drug production, making substances far more potent and deadly (42:25).

Klein expresses concerns over the commercialization and regulation of drugs, citing how legalization has led to increased potency and accessibility, potentially exacerbating addiction issues (55:38). Lehman underscores the challenges of regulating synthetic drugs, suggesting that focused deterrence and treatment rather than mere enforcement could be more effective strategies (64:48).

6. Technological Advances in Vices

Both hosts acknowledge that technological advancements have transformed various vices:

• Cryptocurrency markets and their parallels to gambling, appealing to younger demographics.
• High-potency marijuana products and their uncertain long-term effects.
• Immersive online video games contributing to behavioral addictions.

Lehman notes that capitalistic drives often lead to the intensification and commercialization of vices, making regulation increasingly complex (36:29).

7. Policing Strategies: Broken Windows vs. Community-Based Problem Solving

Lehman critiques the Broken Windows policing approach, which focuses on enforcing minor offenses to prevent major crimes, suggesting that its aggressive application can lead to racial disparities and community distrust (80:57). Instead, he advocates for community-based problem solving, where police collaborate with communities to identify and address underlying issues, leading to more sustainable crime reduction (83:49).

8. Collective vs. Individual Costs

The hosts explore the tension between collective safety and individual rights. Klein uses the example of fare jumping in New York City subways, questioning whether the cost of enforcing minor infractions outweighs the benefits. Lehman responds by emphasizing that unaddressed disorder can escalate into larger issues, advocating for proactive measures to prevent the spiral of dysfunction (85:44).

9. Book Recommendations

Lehman recommends three books for those interested in understanding crime and drug policy:

1. "Thinking about Crime" by James Q. Wilson – Offers a foundational perspective on crime.
2. "Against Excess" by Mark Kleiman – Provides a nuanced analysis of drug policy.
3. "Bonfire of the Vanities" by Tom Wolfe – A satirical yet insightful look into urban American life in the 1980s, reflecting ongoing issues (90:17).

10. Conclusion

Ezra Klein wraps up the discussion by addressing the complexity of balancing enforcement with civil liberties, especially in dealing with non-violent disorders. Lehman reiterates the importance of targeted interventions and treatment-focused approaches to effectively manage disorder and reduce its broader societal impacts (94:17).

Notable Quotes

• Ezra Klein (00:22): "In 2020, the party was running on criminal justice reform. People were talking about defunding the police. Now Kamala Harris talks about herself as California's top law enforcement official. It's a very, very different appeal."

• Charles Fain Lehman (04:31): "I think crime statistics are never going to be perfect... the trends that are showing up in the FBI's crime numbers are real."

• Charles Fain Lehman (22:50): "Disorder is the domination of public space for private purposes."

• Charles Fain Lehman (42:25): "Drugs can kill you. And that is because the drug supply has become much more potent. That represents a technological change."

• Charles Fain Lehman (55:38): "We have to try to find that middle ground regulatorily. Not always, but I think that we really struggle to find that middle ground as Americans."

• Charles Fain Lehman (80:57): "If you adopt this problem oriented model, your policing is much more aligned with both the community and with the way that the world actually works."

Conclusion

This episode of The Ezra Klein Show offers a comprehensive exploration of the hidden politics surrounding disorder in major American cities. Through a nuanced discussion with Charles Fain Lehman, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the complex interplay between crime statistics, public perception, political strategies, and drug policies. The conversation underscores the necessity of balanced, evidence-based approaches to effectively address disorder without compromising individual liberties or exacerbating societal issues.

Note: Timestamps correspond to the provided transcript and serve as references for the notable quotes and discussion points.