The Opinions: Bernie Sanders and Ruben Gallego

Summary

The Ezra Klein Show: "The Opinions: Bernie Sanders and Ruben Gallego"

Date: December 19, 2025
Guests: Senator Bernie Sanders, Senator Ruben Gallego
Interviewer: David Leonhardt (New York Times Opinion)
Summary Prepared By: [Your Name]

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Episode Overview

This episode presents two extended interviews, first with Senator Bernie Sanders and then with Senator Ruben Gallego, exploring the future of left-of-center politics in America. The unifying theme: how can Democrats reclaim and authentically serve the working class? Through candid conversations, both guests dissect missed opportunities, cultural and policy missteps, and offer sharply contrasting, yet sometimes converging, blueprints for winning back the trust of average Americans—while also wrestling with immigration, the logic of markets, abundance versus equity, and patriotic narratives that counter the drift toward right-wing nationalism.

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Part I: Senator Bernie Sanders on the Democratic Party, Oligarchy, and Working-Class Politics

The Shift of the Democratic Party (03:15–09:45)

• Sanders recalls the Democratic Party of the past as the party of the working class—“period, that's all, you’re working class, most people were Democrats” (04:45).
• Highlights the late 1970s as the moment the party got “attracted to big money,” which he views as disastrous for both the party and the country.
• Criticizes prior Democratic elites for failing to listen to working people and the labor movement regarding the dangers of free trade agreements and the offshoring of manufacturing jobs.
• Claims that recent shifts in party rhetoric (“the consensus has shifted in your direction”) are often performative rather than substantive.

“Democrats lost the election, all right? They abdicated. They came up with no alternative... They even today don't acknowledge the economic crises facing the working class.” —Bernie Sanders (07:20)

Authentic Working-Class Politics (09:50–13:55)

• Sanders calls for opening “the bloody doors” of the party (10:04) to invite working class people, young people, and people of color as both participants and candidates.
• Shares experience from a West Virginia rally, criticizing the party for having “abdicated” and become “billionaire-funded, consultant-driven, way out of touch.”
• Argues for policies that center the economic security of ordinary Americans—guaranteed health care (Medicare for All), housing, campaign finance reform.

“Our job is to create an economy and a political system that works for working people, not just billionaires.”—Bernie Sanders (09:36)

Social Tolerance and Electoral Strategy (11:51–13:55)

• Asserts the importance of certain progressive social beliefs (abortion rights, anti-racism, anti-homophobia), but also stresses the need for tolerance and coalition: “So what, you don't agree with me on every issue... we're gonna work together and come up with the best plan that we can.” (13:46)
• Describes the need to speak plainly and relate to rural and working-class America, referencing his own upbringing and historical electoral successes in Vermont.

Immigration, Borders, and Political Blame (13:55–17:54)

• Rebuts the notion of “open borders,” dismissing it as a “Koch brothers proposal” (14:18).
• Supports comprehensive immigration reform with a path to citizenship for undocumented people, condemns Trump’s demonization of minorities.
• Stresses that “nation states... have borders, and if you don’t, you don’t have a nation state.” (16:31), highlighting the importance of border security alongside compassion.

The Roots of Trumpism: Oligarchy and Authoritarianism (18:58–23:42)

• Sanders focuses on “fighting oligarchy” rather than simply fighting Trump’s authoritarianism, arguing that both are intertwined (19:31–21:48).
• Details the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of a few, drawing analogies to Russia and Saudi Arabia: “We have a political system which is dominated by the billionaire class... What do you call that country?” (21:09)
• Warns of billionaires’ disdain for democracy and regulatory oversight, citing Peter Thiel’s rhetoric and Trump’s alliances (22:14–23:39).

Universal Problems, Message, and Lessons for Democrats (23:54–26:59)

• Refuses to draw sharp red/blue state distinctions: issues like housing, child care, and affordability are shared nationwide.
• Argues that boldness and the willingness to demand a decent standard of living for all is the proper response to oligarchy.
• On policing: Emphasizes respect for police while supporting reform, citing his own history as mayor: “Treat them with the respect that they do, doing a very, very difficult job... But police play a very important role and they should be respected.” (25:58)

On Bureaucracy and the Abundance Debate (27:07–29:31)

• Acknowledges the problem of bureaucracy—especially federal—but calls breaking it down “good government,” not ideology: “Ideology is, do you create a nation in which all people have a standard of living? Do you have the courage to take on the billionaire class?” (28:04)
• Argues efficiency matters but shouldn’t be confused with solving deeper economic inequalities.

Progressive Patriotism and Narrative (29:36–33:33)

• Suggests the antidote to right-wing nationalism is a progressive economic agenda that delivers for all, across national boundaries—but insists on patriotism rooted in Lincoln's vision of "government of the people, by the people, for the people.”
• Shares personal story of his immigrant father’s awe at American opportunity: “This is a great country, has given so much to so many people, and we're going to do everything that we can to make sure that Trump does not divide us up, does not move us into an authoritarian society.” (33:25)

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Part II: Senator Ruben Gallego on Messaging, Moderation, and the Meaning of "Winning"

Real-World Experience and Entry Into Politics (37:47–39:15)

• Gallego recounts going from Harvard to joining the Marines out of a sense of duty, then heading to Iraq and being fundamentally changed by war.
• Runs for office post-service, seeking meaningful work and public service.

Why Democrats Struggle With Working-Class Voters (39:40–45:31)

• Gallego credits his Arizona win (while Harris lost the state to Trump) to relentless focus on “what was actually happening on the ground”—people “worried about being able to make the rent... border security... the American dream.”
• Criticizes national Democrats for delivering “nebulous” or academic messaging focused on equity or justice, rather than concrete, emotional appeals to hope, prosperity, and dignity.

“I remember those days to work and work and work and then look up and you're still underwater... And that is what was dragging down a lot of people in Arizona.” —Ruben Gallego (41:24)

The Power of Everyday Language and Symbols (Big Ass Trucks) (45:31–47:48)

• Gallego’s “big ass truck” anecdote becomes shorthand for tangible economic aspiration—a symbol that resonates not just for Latino men, but across the working class.
• Argues Democratic messaging underestimates how much ordinary people want—deserve—prosperity and security.

Abundance Versus Equity, and Bridging the Divide (49:33–51:09)

• Refuses to pick between “abundance” (build more, faster; reduce bureaucracy) and populism (rein in monopolies, raise wages, universal benefits): “Why not both?”
• Praises Zoran Mamdani's focus on affordability as a unifying theme.
• Stresses that “the American people aren't that way” (ideologically rigid): they want both faster results and protection from predatory power.

Breaking Through: Authenticity and The Attention Economy (52:19–53:52)

• Discusses how to be a moderate who can still get through to voters on social media—by connecting real life (boxing matches, car and truck shows, “pickleball tournaments for white suburbanites”) to substantive bread-and-butter issues.
• Insists that authenticity and firsthand economic experience are irreplaceable: “It will carry through.”

Universal Economic Concerns Trump (Most) Identity Politics (54:03–55:05)

• Argues that Democratic coalitions are best united by concrete economics (“the personal checking account”) rather than identity alone.
• Warns that both political parties overestimate the enduring power of group identification outside moments of direct threat, and that failing to respect material aspirations cedes ground to Trump.

Immigration: Security, Reform, and Political Strategy (55:05–61:32)

• Defends his record as consistent: pro-border security, pro-reform (“if you’re a criminal, you should be convicted and deported”).
• Traces the party’s leftward drift on asylum to the Trump–Biden era, arguing that many Latino voters did not support an “extremely liberal” approach.
• Urges Democrats to “give the voter the option” of responsible security plus humane reform, not “no security at all.”
• Strategic advice: build winning coalitions by highlighting the most sympathetic immigrant cases (“Rosa Parks moderation”), not falling into rightwing “traps.”

Winning is Not a Luxury: The “Marine Perspective” (62:52–64:21)

• Gallego says Democrats need to prioritize victory with military planning rigor—define “mission objective,” tolerate discomfort, and push for conversations elites find “icky.”
• Warns that Democratic loss means structural damage (“we won’t have the Supreme Court... puts us out of power”).

The American Dream: An Old Blueprint, A New Cause (65:19–68:26)

• Gallego ties his personal story (immigrant, single mother, sleeping in the living room, making good on opportunity) to a vision for national revival.
• Bemoans the “slow erosion” of the “infrastructure of hope,” insisting that the real need is to “put back the policies and... infrastructure of how to become successful.”
• Emphasizes optimism and resolve: “We have to want to win and plan to win. Those things don't necessarily happen in Democratic politics.” (62:52)

“If I have to say what the future is, it’s the American dream. It’s the thing that’s driven us forever... I don't want any other young man or woman have that feeling [of hopelessness].” —Ruben Gallego (68:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Bernie Sanders (10:04): “Open the bloody doors. Meaning let working class people in with all of their flaws.”
• Bernie Sanders (14:18): “[Open borders]—that’s a Koch Brothers proposal. That’s a right wing proposal which says essentially there is no United States.”
• Bernie Sanders (29:22): “Breaking through bureaucracy and creating efficiencies, that’s good government. Sure, that’s what we should have. Ideology is, do you create a nation in which all people have a standard of living?... That’s ideology.”
• Ruben Gallego (43:35): “We have this situation within Democratic talk where we kind of shy away from [prosperity] because we feel like that's somehow icky.”
• Ruben Gallego (46:20): “The ‘troquita’... it really is a status symbol that you have succeeded in this country. It means you can afford a brand new, nice truck... it helps you pay the bills... it is as simple as that.”
• Ruben Gallego (62:02): "Let's find the most caring person, the person that people can empathize with... If you want to win... let's be smart about actually doing this."
• Ruben Gallego (68:26): "Honestly, I think if I have to say what the future is, it's the American dream. It's... what drove me... some really, really hard days."

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Key Takeaways

For the Left

• Re-connect with the working class: Not just through policy, but through language, imagery, and candidate selection.
• Authentic tolerance: Build “messy” coalitions that accept disagreement on some social issues but remain firm on social and economic justice.
• Reclaim patriotism: Progressive policies can be reframed as deeply patriotic; the American dream is a unifying ideal.
• Balance ideology and pragmatism: Both the fight against oligarchy (structural inequality) and administrative reforms (fighting bureaucracy) matter.
• Strategic communication: Meet voters where they are—in language they use—especially on economics and cultural security.

For Democrats (and Political Practitioners)

• Winning isn’t optional: Without power, none of the progressive or inclusive policies are possible.
• Messaging is mission: Emotional resonance with working- and middle-class concerns is indispensable.
• Don’t shy away from uncomfortable conversations: Engage economic and cultural insecurity directly.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-------------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:15–09:45 | Sanders on party shifts, listening to labor, the disaster of “big money” | | 09:50–13:55 | Genuine working-class politics; open doors for candidates | | 14:18 | Sanders on “open borders” as a right-wing idea | | 18:58–23:42 | Oligarchy and authoritarianism—why fighting one means fighting both | | 25:58 | Sanders on policing: respect with reform | | 27:07–29:31 | Bureaucracy and the abundance debate | | 29:36–33:33 | Progressive patriotism and American narrative | | 39:40–45:31 | Gallego on Arizona win: listening to ground-level concerns | | 45:31–47:48 | “Big ass trucks” as symbol of prosperity and aspiration | | 49:33–51:09 | Abundance, monopoly power—pragmatic approach to both | | 55:05–61:32 | Gallego on immigration, consistency, and strategy | | 62:52–64:21 | The imperative to plan for (and win) power, Marine Corps thinking| | 65:19–68:26 | The American Dream as the nation's next story |

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This summary distills the depth and nuance of two influential American politicians wrestling with the soul, strategy, and substance of left-leaning politics—providing a potent roadmap for those hoping to bridge divides, win back the working class, and redefine patriotism for a new era.

Transcript

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

This podcast is supported by GiveWell. When you give to a nonprofit, how.

[David Leonhardt]

Do you measure success?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Many focus on low overhead, but what.

[David Leonhardt]

About real impact on people's lives? Over 150,000 donors have used GiveWell's research, collectively saving 300,000 lives and improving millions more. Make a tax deductible [e-mail] first time donors can have their donation matched up to $100 as long as matching funds last select podcast and Ezra Klein at.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Checkout My opinion colleague David Leonhardt has.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Been doing these great interviews with Democratic.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Politicians to ask what is America's next story? And today I want to share two conversations in a series that focus on the question of how Democrats can win back the working class, a question we've talked about a lot on this show.

[David Leonhardt]

These are two very different views.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

The first is with Senator Bernie Sanders and the second with Senator Reuben Gallego. And I think the ways in which.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

These approaches converge and differ makes them.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Particularly illuminating to listen to back to back. And if you haven't had a chance.

[David Leonhardt]

To check out our sister podcast where.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

These are from the Opinions you should. The show spotlights all sorts of interesting arguments and thinkers from the Times Opinion universe.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

We will link to it in the show Notes.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

This is the Opinions, a show that.

[David Leonhardt]

Brings you a mix of voices from New York Times Opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it. I'm David Leonhart, an editorial director in New York Times Opinion, and this is America's Next Story, a series about the ideas that once held our country together and those that might do so again. We the People in order to form.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

A more perfect union, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country that America is too great for small dreams.

[David Leonhardt]

Change is what's happening in America, and we will make America great again.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

God bless you and good night.

[David Leonhardt]

I love you. Today my guest is Senator Bernie Sanders. Sanders has been talking about income inequality since the 1980s, back when he was mayor of Burlington, Vermont.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

In our nation today, we have an extreme disparity between the rich and the poor.

[David Leonhardt]

He's been railing against oligarchs since the 1990s, before Elon Musk made his first million.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

To a very great extent, the United States of America today is increasingly becoming an oligarchy.

[David Leonhardt]

Sanders started out as a political oddity, but his focus on inequality has turned him into one of the most influential politicians in America. You're about to hear a feisty conversation in which Sanders criticizes Democrats for not standing up for the working class. And I push him on what an authentic version of working class politics might look like. He also offers his take on the abundance movement, and he sketches out a progressive patriotism that can take back the country from Donald Trump. Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you for being here.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

My pleasure.

[David Leonhardt]

I have to start by going back to your days as mayor of Burlington and thanking you for bringing minor league baseball to the city. Because I had family there and I would visit every summer and we would pick a week when the Vermont Reds were home and we would go every night.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

That was a lot of fun. We worked hard on it and they turned out to be a great team. A lot of the guys who played there ended up in the majors. So it was very good for the community. We had a lot of fun.

[David Leonhardt]

My family were supporters of yours, and they got a big kick out of the fact that even though they were called the Reds cause of the Cincinnati Reds, one socialist mayor in America had a baseball team called the Red.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Yes, we thought that was kind of fun. Yes.

[David Leonhardt]

Okay, let's get into it. I want to go back to the pre Trump era and think about the fact that a lot of Democrats in that era, I'm thinking about the Clintons, Obama, felt more positively toward the market economy than you did. They were positive toward trade. They didn't worry that much about corporate power. They didn't pay that much attention to labor unions. And if I'm being totally honest, a lot of people outside of the Democratic Party, like New York Times columnists, had many. Yeah, I recall that same attitudes.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Some of them didn't actually weren't supportive of my candidacy for president.

[David Leonhardt]

That is fair. That is fair. I assume you would agree that the consensus has shifted in your direction over the last decade or so.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

That's fair to say.

[David Leonhardt]

And I'm curious, why do you think those other Democrats and progressives missed what you saw?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

In the 70s, the early 70s, some of the leaders in the Democratic Party had this brilliant idea. They said, hey, Republicans are getting all of this money from the wealthy and the corporations. Why don't we hitch a ride as well? And they started doing that throughout the history of this country, certainly the modern history of this country, from FDR to Truman to Kennedy, even the Democratic Party was the body of the working class period. That's all you're working class. Most people were Democrats. But from the 70s on, for a variety of reasons, I think the attraction of big money, the party began to pay more attention to the needs of the corporate world and the wealthy rather than working Class people. And I think, in my view, that has been a total disaster, not only politically, but for our country as a whole.

[David Leonhardt]

I agree certainly that corporate money played a role within the party, but I also think a lot of people genuinely believed things like trade would help workers. When I think about. You think it's all about money.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

No, what I think is if you talk to working class people during that period, as I did, if you talk to the union movement during that period, as I did, you said, guys, do you think it's a great idea that we have a free trade agreement with China? No worker in America thought that was a good idea. The corporate world thought it was a good idea. Washington Post thought it was a great idea. I don't know what the New York Times thought, but every one of us who talked to unions, talked to workers understood that the result of that would be the collapse of manufacturing in America, the loss of millions of good paying jobs, because corporations understood, if I can pay people 30 cents an hour in China, why the hell am I going to pay a worker in America a living wage? We understood that.

[David Leonhardt]

I think that's fair, I guess. I'm interested in why you think that members of the Democratic Party, not workers, why you think members of the Democratic Party and other progressives ignored workers back then, but have come more closely to listen to workers. I mean, if you look at the Biden administration's policy, if you look at the way Senator Schumer talks about his own views shifting, I do think there's been this meaningful shift in the Democratic Party toward your views. Not all the way.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Well, what we will have to see is to what degree people are just seeing where the wind is blowing as to whether or not they mean it. In my view, working class Americans did not vote for Donald Trump because they wanted to see the top 1% get a trillion dollars in tax breaks. They did not want to see 15 million people, including many of them, being thrown off the health care they had or health care premiums double, et cetera, et cetera. They voted for Trump because he said, I am going to do something. System is broken. I'm going to do something. What did the Democrats? Well, in 13 years, if you're making 14, $48,000, we may be able to help your kid get to college, but if you're making a penny more, we can't quite do that. The system is okay. We're gonna nibble around the edges. Trump smashed the system. Of course, everything he's doing is disastrous. Democrats, eh? System's okay. Let's nibble around the edges. Democrats lost the election, all right? They abdicated. They came up with no alternative. Because you know what? They even today don't acknowledge the economic crises facing the working class of this country. Now you tell me, all right, how many Democrats are going around saying, you know what? We have a healthcare system which is broken completely. We are the only major country on earth not to guarantee healthcare to all people? I've introduced Medicare for all. You know how many Democrats in the Senate I have on board?

[David Leonhardt]

How many?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

15 out of a caucus of 47.

[David Leonhardt]

And you think Medicare for all is both good policy and good politics?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Of course it's good policy. Health care is a human right, and I feel very strongly about that. I think that at a time when we have more income and wealth inequality, you know what the American people think? Maybe we really levy some heavy duty taxes on the billionaire class. I believe that. I think most Americans, including them Republicans, believe that. Not quite so sure where the Democrats are. I believe that. You don't keep funding a war criminal like Netanyahu to starve the children of Gaza. That's what I believe. It's what most Americans believe. Overwhelming majority in the Democratic world believe it. Democratic leadership maybe not quite so much. So the point is that right now, with 60% of our people living paycheck to paycheck, I don't know that the Democratic leadership understands that there are good, decent people out there working as hard as they can, having a hard time paying their rent because the cost of housing is off the charts. Healthcare is off the charts. Childcare's off the charts. Campaign finance system is completely broken. You know, when Musk can spend $270 million to elect Trump, you got a broken system. Our job is to create an economy and a political system that works for working people, not just billionaires.

[David Leonhardt]

So the key to you is the Democratic Party needs to tell a story and implement policies. I don't know.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

You talk about the Democratic Party, David. Who are you talking about?

[David Leonhardt]

I'm talking about the leadership of the party in Congress.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

The leadership of the party right now. This is the struggle that I, when I ran in 2016, right? What I said is open the bloody doors.

[David Leonhardt]

Meaning?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Meaning let working class people in with all of their flaws. They may have said something 28 years ago they regret saying, open the door. Open the door to young people. Open the door to people of color.

[David Leonhardt]

As candidates.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

You mean as candidates as participants. You know that I was in West Virginia. I don't know if you know this. Went to West Virginia I don't know. Two months ago.

[David Leonhardt]

Yep.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I went to a county in West Virginia which voted for Trump. Okay. We had hundreds of people coming out. Unbelievable what I heard. Decent, hard working, good people. Did you know there is no Democratic Party basically in West Virginia?

[David Leonhardt]

They've given up.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Yeah. It's not only West Virginia, it's state after state after state. Democratic Party has abdicated. Give it up. They're not fighting for the working class. And what the Democratic Party has been is billionaire funded, consultant driven party, way out of touch with where the working class of this country is.

[David Leonhardt]

Let's talk about what a true working class politics might look like. So I think clearly a part of that is a much bolder economic policy. Right. You've made that much of your life work. I do think there's another part of it. And when I look at your career, I see that. So your old Pat Leahy once said that you appealed to an anti establishment strain in Vermont that is not necessarily liberal. And when I think about what a true working class politics might look like, I think about the fact that in your history you spoke positively about hunting and you got support from gun owners and you really did better in rural Vermont than a lot of other Democrats. And so to me, I mean, just to think about Vermont for a minute, you sent the signal that you were not from one of the fancy Vermont towns like Charlotte, but that you actually understood the interest, interests of people in less affluent rural Vermont.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I am one of those people. I grew up in a three and a half room rent controlled party. It is not those people. Those are my people.

[David Leonhardt]

And part of that, I think is being willing to defy the Democratic Party orthodoxy not only on economic issues, but also on some social issues. And you did that, you did that on guns, for example. And I'm curious whether you think that a true working class politics needs to incorporate the views of working class people, not only on economics, but also on issues where many working class people just have different views than the faculty lounge at a fancy university.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I mean, I think there are certain basic. I think, you know, I have spent my whole life believing, not a radical idea, that women have a right to control their own body. We've got to end sexism, we got to end racism, we got to end homophobia. Very, very important. You know, I'll tell you a funny story. Way back when, I can't remember the year in Vermont, there was an amendment, there was the constitutional amendment for women's rights. Do you remember that? Okay. And it turns out that a lot of A number of people voted against that, who voted for me. In other words, you got to have a tolerance. I believe, again, women have a right to control their own body. There are people who disagree with me. What am I supposed to do? Throw them out, discard them completely because they disagree with you? In this country today, in one sense, there is a lot of disunity, clearly, and a lot of people divided. But on the basic issues, is healthcare a human right? We're pretty, Pretty much most people think, yes. Should the rich stop paying their fair share of taxes? Yeah. Should we build low income and affordable housing? Yeah. Is the campaign finance system currently corrupt? Yeah. In the richest nation on earth, should elderly people be able to retire with security and dignity? Yeah. So gotta be tolerant. I mean, so what? You don't agree with me on every issue, what am I gonna do? All right, we're gonna work together and come up with the best plan that we can.

[David Leonhardt]

We wanna play a clip of an interview you did with Ezra Klein, who's now my colleague, but at the time he was at Vox. And it's about immigration.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

But I think if you take global.

[David Leonhardt]

Poverty, that's serious, it leads you to conclusions that in the US are considered out of political bounds. Things like sharply raising the level of immigration we permit, even up to the.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Up to a level of open borders. About sharply increasing open borders. Open borders. That's a Coke Brothers proposal. The idea, of course, I mean, that's a right wing proposal which says essentially there is no United States.

[David Leonhardt]

Can you say more about your views on immigration?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Look, when there are people who want cheap labor coming into this country to lower wages, no question about it, where we are right now is we have, we think, about 10 million undocumented people in this country. The overwhelming majority of those people came to this country for the same exact reason as my father came from Poland without a nickel in his pocket, to create a better life for themselves. And many of them actually brought their little kids here. They fled violence, they fled poverty. The overwhelming, overwhelming majority of these people are working hard. During COVID those were the people in the meatpacking plants. Those were the people who were coming down with COVID and dying. They were keeping the economy going. The failure of both the Democratic and the Republican Party in the last number of decades is we have not developed a comprehensive immigration reform and in my view, a path towards citizenship for those people. And I think what Trump is doing right now is disgusting. It is what demagogues always do. You take a powerless minority, maybe it's the Jews in Europe during the 30s. Maybe it's gypsies, maybe it's gay people, maybe it's black people. You name the minority and you blame all the problems of the world on those people. That's what Trump is doing with the undocumented. My view is very, very different. I think we've got to move toward comprehensive immigration reform and a path towards citizenship for people who are, by and large, working very hard and a very important part of our.

[David Leonhardt]

So Trump is clearly doing outrageous things that deny people their civil rights and that violate their basic humanity right now. There's no question about that. I also think it's fair to say that the Biden administration's immigration policy did essentially reject the views of a lot of working class Americans. And they looked at it and they said, that's just too open an immigration policy. And I think their discomfort with it was consistent with your longtime view of. Of immigration.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Well, what I do think in terms of the Biden administration, so long as we have nation states like the United States of America and Canada and Mexico, you have borders. And if you don't have any borders, in a sense, you don't have a nation state. And Biden tried to make some progress at the end of his tenure. You know, you saw the pictures in Texas of just all kinds of undocumented people in. That does not resonate, and it's not right. We need to have an immigration policy, but you also need to have strong borders, period.

[David Leonhardt]

The reason I'm pushing you on this is I do think there is greater demand for a true working class politics in this country than many Democratic elites have often acknowledged. It's a kind of working class politics that really could involve moving economic policy in the direction that you want. But I think for people to win, and when you look at people like Ruben Gallego in Arizona, who's won, or Marcy Kaptor in Ohio, or you in Vermont, when you first got a elected there, it wasn't a solidly blue state. It is not enough to be populist on economics. Democrats also have to show some basic respect for working class views and be authentic, rather than just saying that they're tolerating views on things like immigration or on guns. They. They genuinely have to have views that are different than really affluent Democrats tend to have on social issues. Okay, you think that's fair?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

Okay. I think it's really uncomfortable for the Democratic Party because I think it.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

You see, when you keep David talking about the Democratic Party, when I ran for president, you know, one of the things That I learned story. Much of a democratic body, there are people on the top. When I think about a party, I think about the involvement of large numbers of people at the grassroots level. You understand what I'm saying? Yep. That's my. When I think about a party, people disagree. They yell and shout at each other. As people have said, democracy is kind of messy. But I think sometimes when people think about the Democratic Party, think of these cocktail parties in New York City or la, where wealthy people mingle with consultants, mingle with the leadership. That's not much of a party. That's really kind of an elitist institution. So one of the things that I have that I believe, if the Democratic Party is to survive, maybe it will, maybe it won't. The transformation has to be to open the doors, to bring in millions of people, to hear what they have to say, to have them start running for office, etc.

[David Leonhardt]

Now let's talk about Trump. You are turning out tens of thousands of people across the country for your fighting oligarchy tour.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

300,000, but who's counting?

[David Leonhardt]

I was thinking of individual events, but that's fair. Total audience. Fighting Oligarchy is also the name of your book. I'm curious why you chose Fighting Oligarchy as opposed to something that was more Trump specific, like, say, Fighting Authoritarianism. Why do you think oligarchy is the root cause of how we got to Trumpism?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

That's a good question. Obviously, I work day and night trying to defeat this guy's effort to move toward moving us to an authoritarian society. I think the two go hand in glove, by the way. But I think what I wanted to do, what we did in the rallies and what I wanted to do in the book is ask the American people to start looking at some very uncomfortable realities. It's very easy when I could say, oh, in Russia now, Putin and his friends, that's an oligarchy. I got a handful of zillionaires running that country. Oh, in Saudi Arabia, you got a billion dollar family. I think all over the world, you got these really wealthy and powerful oligarch types, but not in the United States. Not true. In America today, we have more income and wealth inequality we've ever had in the history of this country. Over the last 50 years, you have seen a massive transfer of wealth from the bottom 90% to the top 1%. You have a political system which is dominated by the billionaire class. Right. That's what Citizens United was all about. That's what SuperPAC's about. So you got Mr. Musk able to contribute 270 million. Right. To elect Donald Trump. And Democratic billionaires playing a role. You know, obviously, I'm strongly supporting Zoran Mamdani. And it was just amazing to me how upfront the oligarchs were in New York City. One guy says, well, we're gonna spend whatever it takes. You know, we're landlords. We're the oligarchy. How dare this guy come in and upset the apple cart quite open? That's what really struck me. So you got an economy dominated by the very wealthy, a rigged economy. You have a political system dominated by billionaires. You have the media, corporate media, having huge impact. You add it all up. What do you call that country? You tell me. Is it fair to call it an oligarchy?

[David Leonhardt]

I absolutely think there are oligarchistic aspects to our country.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Oh, you're sounding like a New York Times report here.

[David Leonhardt]

I'm not willing to say that we are already an oligarchy, but I'm worried that we're very much moving toward that. And so I think there's a huge amount of your diagnosis that I agree with to some extent. I'm not pushing you on the oligarchy notion. I'm accepting it. I'm asking in this moment, should we be paying more attention to the authoritarian threat?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Okay, they go together. All right, I agree. They do. All right. The point is, what is very rarely discussing. And I've been on 48 million television shows and nobody has ever asked me. Not one person has ever said, bernie, are you worried that so few people in America have so much wealth and so much power while working class people are struggling? No one ever asked me that question.

[David Leonhardt]

I bet you make the point anyway.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I do. I say thank you for your silly question. Now I'll give you the answer to the question that you didn't ask. All right, but what do the oligarchs want? When you hear people like Peter Thiel talking about. I don't know if you followed this. When Peter Thiel, who is a billionaire, actively involved in AI and robotics, he refers to his opponents not as people he disagrees with. The Antichrist. Did you see that? Literally the word was Antichrist. A religious critique. Because these guys have the divine right to rule. And when Trump gets elected in his inauguration and he has all of these multi billionaires behind him, A, these guys are doing phenomenally well. They love Donald Trump, no doubt want. But B, what do they want? Do they want to pay taxes? No. Do they like unions? No. They want to break unions. Do they Want any form of regulation in AI and robotics. No way. You're an antichrist. You're immoral, you're a devil, literally, if you try to interfere with us. They like oligarchy. They like authoritarianism. They like authoritarianism because people like Putin gives the oligarchs in Russia Right. Opportunity to do anything they want. That's what Trump is doing right here in this country.

[David Leonhardt]

I would say Russia's made it to full oligarchy, by the way.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Yes. But let me tell you, there's some people on the right now who are beginning to refer to the United States Congress as the Duma people. Blabbing all day long, powerless. Trump has all the power.

[David Leonhardt]

You mentioned Zoram Hamdani.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

New York is obviously different from the rest of the United States in a whole bunch of ways. What lessons do you want Democrats who are from swing states or red states to take from Zoran Mamdan?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

You keep sounding like a New York Times reporter. Well, I am. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay, all right. Get over something. Okay, okay. I grew up in Brooklyn is very different than West Virginia.

[David Leonhardt]

Yes.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Different than Maine, different than other states. But at the end of the day, and I say this not, you know, to be sweepingly rhetorical, the overwhelming majority of Americans are working class people. And when Mamdani is talking about in New York is people cannot afford the outrageous cost of housing. You know what? It's true in Vermont, it's true in West Virginia. It's true in virtually every state in this country. He's talking about affordability, talking about childcare. You know what? Child care crisis in almost every state in this country. Don't use the word red state or blue state when I hear red states. To me, it's an abdication of the Democratic Party in fighting for the working class. People have no alternative, and they vote for the Trumps of the world. If we are bold, and we gotta be really bold in demanding that in the wealthiest country in the history of. You tell me, you tell me why, in the richest country, all of our people cannot have a decent standard of living. There is no excuse for that other than the greed of the billionaire class who have so much power and the acquiescence of the political class in allowing that to happen.

[David Leonhardt]

I mean, this ties together our conversation nicely because I agree that Mamdani's message on affordability can resonate in the entire country. But when you look at the Democrats who've won in places, it's harder for Democrats to win than New York. They sound Very different from him on something like policing. Very different. Right. They appear in their ads with police officers. They talk about the border. There's basically no counterexample of a Democrat who's won a tough race without.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I think the world is changing, by the way, and I think you're going to see more of that. And I think you're seeing candidates right now running. And by the way, in terms of the police, one of the reasons, you know, I was elected mayor of Burlington, Vermont, a few years ago, 1981. You know who endorsed me? The Burlington Patrolman's Association. That was the police union. And you know who endorsed me two years later? Because I did good things in reforming the police department. The Burlington Policeman's Union. And two years later, oh, Burlington Policeman's Union. And two years after that. I understand that being a cop is, in fact, a very difficult job. Enormous responsibility when you have a gun on your hip. Scheduling is crazy. Divorce rate among cops is very, very high. They live under a lot of stress. All right. Treat them with the respect that they do, doing a very, very difficult job. Can we tolerate racism within police departments? Not at all. Is there brutality? Absolutely. Do we need reforms? Yes. But police play a very important role and they should be respected.

[David Leonhardt]

Look, that's, I think, the kind of message that can resonate with a huge number of Americans. I don't think it's the message a lot of Democrats have always given, but I think that's part of what interests me so much about your politics.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

By the way, I am an independent Democrat. I know.

[David Leonhardt]

Let's talk about another debate that's gotten people excited. And I'm really curious about your view. The abundance debate, which is this idea that one of the things that government needs to do and progressives need to do is clear out bureaucracy so that our society can make more stuff homes, clean energy. What do you think of the abundance movement?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Well, it's gotten a lot of tension among the elite, if I may say. So. Look, if the argument is that we have a horrendous bureaucracy. Absolutely correct. It is terrible. I brought in over the years a lot of money into the state of Vermont. It is incredible, even in a state like Vermont, which is maybe better than most states, how hard it is to even get the bloody money out. Yes. You have so many. Oh, my God. We have 38 meetings. Got to talk about this. Unbelievable. I worked for years to bring two health clinics into the state of Vermont that we needed. I wanted to renovate one and build another one. In this, you cannot believe you cannot believe the level of bureaucracy to build a bloody health center. It's still not built. All right, So I don't need to be lectured on the nature of bureaucracy. It is horrendous and that is real. But that is not an ideology. That is common sense. Any manager, your corporate manager, you're a mayor, you're a governor, gotta get things done. And the bureaucracy, federal bureaucracy, many state bureaucracies make that very, very difficult. But that is not an ideology. It's good government. Sure, that's what we should have. Ideology is, do you create a nation in which all people have a standard of living? Do you have the courage to take on the billionaire class? Do you stand with the working class? That's ideology. Breaking through bureaucracy and creating efficiencies, that's good government.

[David Leonhardt]

But it would be a meaningful change if states were able to reduce bureaucracy. It may not be an ideology, but it doesn't happen today.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Things done.

[David Leonhardt]

And you think, you agree that we should do more of that? We should have policy changes to simplify things, to do more.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I did my best when I was mayor to break through our own. You know, we're a small city of 40,000 people. To break through the bureaucracy. And I was a good mayor. Yes. So there's no question that you have people who, it seems to me their function in life is to make sure things don't happen. You know, we should not be paying people to do that.

[David Leonhardt]

Right wing nationalism, and this is where I want to end, is ascendant in much of the world.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Yes.

[David Leonhardt]

And it is extremely dangerous in many ways, as we are seeing in this country, as we're seeing in Europe, as we're seeing elsewhere. I'm curious what you think is a, an effective progressive response. Is there a version of progressive patriotism that can counter right wing nationalism? Is there something that is more than a sum of smart policies, but instead becomes a narrative and a message and something inspiring that people can say, we want that rather than this really reactionary nationalism.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Good question. Look, as you've indicated, if you look at not only the United States and Trumpism, if you look at France, look at the UK right now, the leading candidate is a right wing extremist. You look at Germany and often, as you indicate immigration is the issue.

[David Leonhardt]

Yes.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Okay. What demagogues, as I mentioned earlier, always do is you take a minority who are powerless, you blame them for all of the problems. And I think what we have got to see is that in America and in many parts of the developed world, what has been happening over the last 50 years, especially in rural parts, is the rich get much rich and zillions of people get left behind. All right, Real inflation accounted for. Wages for the average American worker has been flat for 50 years. Okay, so people are angry.

[David Leonhardt]

Yep.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

All right, so I think you need a economic agenda that says to people in England, France, Germany, throughout Europe, throughout Latin America, that with all of this technology, we can create a new world in which all of our people have a decent standard of living. That doesn't solve all of the problems, but I think, absolutely, at this time of growing income and wealth inequality, when the oligarchs are trying to destroy democracy all over the world, that's an important part of the antidote.

[David Leonhardt]

My worry is that a sort of whole world message falls flat. I think of you as a patriot. I don't know if you think of yourself as a patriot.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Absolutely.

[David Leonhardt]

Do you think patriotism within this country is an important part of that story?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

When I was at Trump's inaugural, I actually got pushed into the front row for whatever reason. And sitting behind them were the three wealthiest guys in the world. Behind them, billionaires Trump had nominated to run government agencies. And honest to God, what I thought of when I was there, looking at that scene, I was thinking about Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg. After that terrible battle to help end slavery in America. Lincoln gets up and says, these thousands of soldiers did not die in vain. They died so that we can maintain a government of the people, by the people, for the people. So you want a nationalism. You want a patriotic nationalism? That's what it is. People fought and died, not just in the Civil War, in the Revolutionary war, World War II, died to defend democracy. And we need a government and an economy that works for all of us, not just a handful of wealthy campaign donors. That's your nationalism. We love this country. You know, my father, in a million years, you know, he came from a very poor family in Poland, antisemitism, poverty came to America. Never in a million years. He was so. I mean, you know, you can talk about it. The fact that his two kids were able to go to college. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. And that is the truth of millions and millions and millions of people in this country. This is a great country, has given so much to so many people, and we're going to do everything that we can to make sure that Trump does not divide us up, does not move us into an authoritarian society.

[David Leonhardt]

Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you so much.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Thank you very much.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

If you like this show, follow it.

[David Leonhardt]

On Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

The Opinions is produced by Derek Arthur, Vishaka Darba, Christina Samulewski and Gillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin and Allison Bruzick. Engineering, mixing and original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrera, Pat McCusker, Carol Sabaro and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Aman Sahota. The Fact Check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Christina Samulewski. The director of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Foreign. This podcast is supported by GiveWell. When you give to a nonprofit, how.

[David Leonhardt]

Do you measure success?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Many focus on low overhead, but what about real impact on people's lives?

[David Leonhardt]

Over 150,000 donors have used GiveWell's research, collectively saving 300,000 lives and improving millions more. Make a tax deductible [e-mail] first time donors can have their donation matched up to $100 as long as matching funds last. Select podcast and Ezra Klein at checkout.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Don't just imagine a better future. Start investing in one with betterment. Whether it's saving for today or building wealth for tomorrow, we help people in small businesses put their money to work. We automate to make saving simpler. We optimize to make investing smarter. We build innovative technology backed by financial experts. For anyone who's ever said, I think I can do better. So be invested in yourself. Be invested in your business. Be invested in better with betterment. Get [e-mail] investing involves risk performance not guaranteed. The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online and more personal info in more places that could expose you more to identity theft. But LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

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[Senator Ruben Gallego]

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[Senator Bernie Sanders]

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[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com SpecialOffer terms apply. This is the Opinions, a show that.

[David Leonhardt]

Brings you a mix of voices from New York Times Opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Foreign.

[David Leonhardt]

I'm David Leonhart, an editorial director in New York Times Opinion and this is America's Next Story, a series about the ideas that once held our country together and those that might do so again. We the people in order to form.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

A more perfect union, ask not what.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Your country can do for you.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

You ask what you can do that.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

America is too great for small dreams.

[David Leonhardt]

Change is what's happening in America and we will make America great again.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

God bless you and good night.

[David Leonhardt]

I love you. Today I'm talking with Senator Reuben Gallego. He was a rare success story for the Democratic Party. Last year, he won a Senate seat in Arizona even as President Trump was winning that same state. Gallego has a clear diagnosis about where Democrats have gone wrong and how they can start winning more often by telling a different story. In our conversation, we covered a lot of ground. What he has learned from Rosa Parks, what he admires about Zoran Mamdani, why he likes to talk about big ass trucks, and why he still gets emotional when he thinks about his own family's journey. Senator Gallego, thanks for being here.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Thanks for having me.

[David Leonhardt]

You've just dropped one of your kids off at daycare. That's right. You just had a new baby. Congratulations. Thank you. And your oldest kid is here with us today in the studio.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Yes.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

He's on break, so he's gonna tag along with dad for a bit.

[David Leonhardt]

Let's go back to college. Oh, God.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Okay.

[David Leonhardt]

You went to Harvard in the early 2000s.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yes.

[David Leonhardt]

And back then, as is still the case, the most popular things to do coming out of Harvard included tech and finance and consulting. You did something different. You went into the Marines.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Why?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Well, it wasn't much of a choice. I was a reservist, and I had always intended to serve my country one way or the other. And I joined about a year before September 11th. And after that, I went on a series of activations. And when I got out, I had basically one and a half years left on my contract. I moved to Albuquerque, New Mexico. And they told me if I joined that I would be sent to Iraq. And, you know, to be honest, I hated the war. I hated that we had gone to war. But I also felt very conflicted that if I didn't go, someone else is going to take my spot. And so I went. And unfortunately, it was a very hard activation. By the time I was done, the war had changed me a lot to the point where I just couldn't go and do the finance work, the other types of work. I needed to do something that had some meaning and drive in my life because the war really took a lot out of me.

[David Leonhardt]

And so you move to Arizona and you get involved in politics, you're in the state legislature and then you're elected to Congress, and then you run for U.S. senate. And let's go to election night last year, because you must have had mixed feelings. I mean, you win and you are going to the US Senate, Senate at A pretty young age.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

And you also realize that Donald Trump is going back to the presidency. What was that like when you realized that you were going to win but Kamala Harris was going to lose?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

On. We knew on election night when the numbers came in from two big counties and one rural area, that there was basically no way for us to lose at that point. But seeing the numbers that the vice president hit was. And she was leading, but. But knowing how kind of votes break out, we knew that that wasn't going to hold. It was hard because I wanted to jump for joy. My family had sacrificed for two years to run for office. And, you know, we were proud of the, you know, as a family that, you know, we. We hit an amazing American story. You know, we didn't come from a lineage of. Of senators, but then, of course, you have Trump and you, you know, realizing that that's going to be a very hard situation. I was hopeful, to be honest, that maybe things would. Could be better than they are right now, but they're not.

[David Leonhardt]

How do you diagnose why you won Arizona in particular, and Kamala Harris lost him?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

We were very real about what was actually happening on the ground, and we didn't lie to ourselves. I think a lot of Democrats running, and it wasn't just Vice President Harris that they wanted to talk about, the things they were comfortable talking about. They didn't want to go to where the voter was.

[David Leonhardt]

So they wanted to talk about abortion and democracy.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Basically, yes. And sometimes there's some voters that want to talk about that. But what we were seeing on the ground in Arizona was that people were worried about being able to make the rent. They were worried about border security, and they were worried about, you know, what is truly happening to the American dream. And for a place like Arizona that was known to be affordable, had always been affordable for the first time in anybody's memory, it became a very unaffordable place very quickly. And we sound extremely out of touch that we weren't talking about that. Now, my campaign, we did talk about it. So it's all we talked about. We talked about the cost of everything, and we did it in a way that that wasn't an economic message. It was like an emotional message. Right. I talked about how I grew up poor, and I understand how frustrating it is. And I remember those days to work and work and work and then look up and you're still underwater. And that is what was dragging down a lot of people in Arizona, especially working class Latino men who, you know, have a mentality that I can keep working and get myself out of the situation. But for the first time, I heard this, like, desperation that I had never heard in my, you know, 45 years of being a Latino man, that they just felt that they weren't gonna make it. And we talked to them because I understood what they were going through. And I think a lot of Democrats did not do that, certainly not in Arizona, but I think also across the.

[David Leonhardt]

Country, I think if we had a member of Vice President Harris's campaign team here, they might say, hey, look, we tried. We criticized Donald Trump's tariffs as being attacks on the American people. We talked about her focus on lifting people up. And so I do think they tried. I'm interested.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I think they did try. I just think it's. There's a lot of. There's ways to do it that probably weren't able to connect. Yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

And I mean, what's interesting to me about this is it plays into, I think, this broader critique you've had about the Democratic Party, which is that how it talks to people.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Right. And how it treats people, too.

[David Leonhardt]

And how it treats people, too. And you got a whole bunch of attention a few years ago for banning your staff in Congress from using the term Latinx, which you said is mostly a term that white liberals use and Latinas and Latinos think is silly. And I'm interested in your critique of how Democrats talk about the economy, because I think often the economy is an issue in which Democrats feel like, hey, we're comfortable on that issue. It's not like immigration, it's not like gender. We're comfortable in the economy. But you've said, actually, basically, the Democratic Party still talks, say, too much like Harvard professors and not enough like Marine Corps members to use your life. And so specifically, you've said this idea that Democrats should talk about the American dream in terms of prosperity rather than, quote, a nebulous message about justice.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yes.

[David Leonhardt]

Can you be more specific about that?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

So, I mean, a lot of times, especially in the last couple of years, what I've heard coming from the Democratic side, my friends, is that they talk about economic equity. They talk about these ideas of essentially trying to equalize capitalism, to lift people out of poverty. And that's just not how people think. And it's also this assumption that the Democrats themselves, the actual base voters, don't want to be prosperous, they don't want to be rich, they don't want to be successful. And so we have this situation within Democratic talk where we kind of shy away from that because we Feel like that's somehow icky. Right. I'm surrounded by working class Democrats. And the reason I speak the way I speak is because no one in my family's involved in politics. Half my families are in union, the other half are very working class. I have one sister who's a doctor. I live in a working class neighborhood in Phoenix. No one there talks about economic equity. What they talk about is I want to be able to buy a home. I am starting a business. I want to make money, I want my kids to do well, I want to be happy. And when we, we have these like nebulous positions that people just can't put their finger on, then Democrats are kind of losing an opportunity. Because if we're the party of opportunity, if we're the party that's going to give you a real chance, the American dream, you know, buying a home, starting a business, being able to go on vacation, for God's sake. The things that people used to be able to do, then people say that's the party that I want in there to fight for me. But when we're just this kind of like nebulous, blah group of people that is going to, to protect this idea, but we don't actually ever really do anything about it, they're going to go off to something else. Shinier. And the shinier has come with Donald Trump.

[David Leonhardt]

This is the point where I have to ask about big ass trucks.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

In an interview with the New York Times, you said that what Latino men want is to own a big ass truck, which is connected very much to what you were just saying. And I assume you would say the point is broader than Latino men. It's men and women, men and women. It's everything Asian, black and white Americans.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I mean, I said that mostly just to kind of break through this because I've heard it so much like why Latino men go this way. I'm like, well, Latino men want things. There's a lot of Democrats and the kind of, the more liberal side that would hope that, that Latino men are more reflective and look, look and vote like, you know, white liberal men. They don't. They're different. They're entirely different. They have entirely different experience. And they're not like black men either. Right. They have entirely different experience. And so to kind of break through like you have to keep it simple. You know, they want security, they want economic security and they want, want physical security for their family. And their wants are legitimate. We shouldn't just shy away from or ignore it because it puts us in an uncomfortable spot. So the Troquita, you know, the truck, it's symbolic because it really is a status symbol that you have succeeded in this country. It means that you can afford a brand new, nice truck, that you take that truck to work and that work brings dignity to your family. It helps you pay the bills. You get to load your kids on there, you get to go on vacation. It involves this whole symbolic gesture to your community that you are leading your family and that you are bringing them into the American dream. That's what it really represents. And I think a lot of people feel uncomfortable about that, but that really is as simple as that.

[David Leonhardt]

Also, trucks are fun.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Trucks are a lot of fun. Yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

So I think to me that's a version of you saying the party needs to talk more about prosperity and less about things like equity and justice.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Look, I think there was a lot of, of thought post Obama that if we focus on equity and justice, then that somehow would be the unifier of the Democratic coalition. It ends up the biggest uniform Democratic coalition. Black, white, Latino, immigrants, Asians, everybody else is the personal check and account. That actually is what unifies our coalition. And when we walked away from that because of pure political convenience, our coalition started eroding more and more and more, and we're seeing it all the time.

[David Leonhardt]

Look, I didn't predict that Donald Trump would get increasing support over his political career from Latino and black and Asian Americans, but the fact is he has. Yeah, and it feels like Democrats made this fundamental misdiagnosis, which is that people think of themselves first in terms of racial or ethnic groups. And it turns out that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Depends. That's the other thing. It's like, when does it happen when there is a. That racial group feels like they collectively are under attack? Like I tell you right now, now the Republican Party is going to lose badly with Latinos come 2026 because they moved beyond, hey, we're going after criminals now. There's racially profiling in the streets. Right. You know, originally, I'm from Chicago. As you know, I have a lot of friends and family there, varying degrees of politics and who they support. And I would say I did see Latino men, especially in Chicago, moving away from the Democratic Party. That's not happening right now.

[David Leonhardt]

I promise we'll get to immigration in a couple.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

You don't have to. I talk about too much.

[David Leonhardt]

We will, we will. Let's stay on trucks for a minute. So you said big ass trucks. And then the writer, Matthew Iglesias, took that and coined this term big ass truck abundance, which plays into this policy debate on abundance within the Democratic Party. And so I'm gonna overgeneralize a little bit, but the abundance crowd, which includes my colleague Ezra Klein, basically says the Democratic Party should focus on getting rid of bureaucracy and, and making more stuff, right? Houses, transportation, clean energy. And then there's another part of the debate which is more associated with the progressive wing of the party. Bernie Sanders, AOC that says no economic and political power is the issue and we can't be naive and we have to focus on cracking down on corporate power. And we should be creating universal government programs for childcare, which is, I know, an issue you deal with in your own personal life.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Just today.

[David Leonhardt]

Just today. So. Or do you think you're more on one side in that debate or do you straddle the two sides?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

There's a really good commercial for taco shells and the, you know, there's a debate of whether they should be soft or hard. And at the end of the commercial, this, you know, really cute Latina little girl says, porque no los dos? Why can't it be both? We should be able to mix both of this, right? We should be building things fast, as fast as possible, especially housing. And the same time we should be making sure that monopolies don't control markets that are driving up prices. We should be able to build roads fast and at the same time make sure that there's ways for us to have affordable childcare for working class America. I don't understand why everyone seems to be in these corners, because the American people aren't that way. If we make their lives better by both means, then we get the net benefit, which is their support and their vote.

[David Leonhardt]

And so you're saying you can be both pro abundance and you can be a populist who wants to take on corporate power?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Absolutely. It doesn't mean that everything's a fight. It doesn't mean, like every corporation is bad, but there are some bad ones, right? It doesn't mean that every regulation is bad, but there are some bad regulations. And I think we as policymakers, as the actual people that vote and our leaders, we have to be able to pick and choose when to use the tools, right? So maybe sometimes it is abundance, sometimes it is going against, you know, our monopoly.

[David Leonhardt]

So it's interesting because I think the answers you just gave on abundance could also have been given by Zoran Mamdani, the New York politician.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I've heard of him.

[David Leonhardt]

I'm sure you have. What do you think of him?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Look, I think he really struck a chord. And when I talk about big ass truck policy and that's how I got a lot of people to vote, like the man's talking about affordable rents. Right. And you know, you know, be able to afford a, I don't know, for New York, like a apartment with a second bathroom or something. Yeah, medium ass apartment. Right. He talks about affordability. I disagree with some things, like I don't think they should have government run grocery stores, but I guarantee you there's a lot of, of New Yorkers are like, yeah, you know, I don't agree with that. But at least he's talking about it. At least he has some ideas. At least he's pushing something. And I think there's a lot of Democrats that are missing the boat. Like we don't have to support him on everything. We could disagree in some areas, but the fact is that, that he talks about affordability. He talks about trying to make people's lives better. That's resonating. And now we may not agree how he's going to get there, but, but let's not ignore the lesson that, that he's showing.

[David Leonhardt]

I do think there's this interesting question about the attention economy today. Zoran Mamdani is clearly on the left part of the Democratic Party.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yes.

[David Leonhardt]

And I think what we see today is that it, it often feels easier for people who are making arguments and drawing contrasts and their critics would say are at the extremes to get attention. Yeah, you're much more moderate and sometimes moderation can seem boring if we're being honest. Yeah, but you figured out a way to break through in Arizona. How do you think about how someone with your politics doesn't just come off as boring and technocratic in this day and age of social media and attention?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I think what happened with us in Arizona was that we used some smart ways to kind of get into people's feeds. Right. We did boxing matches, we, we did car shows, truck shows, a lot of stuff. Hey, I, I reached out to white suburban people with pickleball tournaments too. Right. So we did everything we could. But the reason it resonates because like, while I was using them to get their attention, I was talking to them about what they were really worried about right now. And the ability for any candidate or elected official to talk in an authentic way will carry through. It will. The problem is we have, and on the Democratic side, we have less and less of us that actually can speak about, about the personal checkbook and economics of a Family in an authentic way. And it. That's why you could get on TV as much as you want. You could go on podcasts, you do your Instagram lives and it's not going to catch.

[David Leonhardt]

It's really interesting because whether you're coming from the left or closer to the center, both Mamdani in New York and you in Arizona, your messaging really emphasized those economic issues.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

So he didn't talk in his mayoral campaign about ICE or about Gaza very much. He emphasized the same things you're talking about.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Right. Because that's. Builders care about every day.

[David Leonhardt]

Yeah.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

You get reminded about it every week. So, you know, I have three kids, you know, we have a family of five, but we go grocery shopping every week. So I see that grocery bill and I'm very lucky. My wife and I make a good salary. So it, it doesn't impact us that much. But I noticed that price and I still have poor boy mentality. When you grow up poor, it's hard to get out of that mentality. So I'm still kind of watching all this. If I'm seeing this, I can't imagine what a family is thinking every Saturday and Sunday when they go shopping. Yeah, right. Yeah. And yeah, you know, it hits. It just hits.

[David Leonhardt]

So we've touched on immigration a couple times now. Let's really dig in on it. One of your early forays into politics in Arizona was you helped lead a recall campaign against Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah, I got very close too.

[David Leonhardt]

Who was this? As I'm sure many listeners remember, was this cruel, anti immigrant sheriff.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yep.

[David Leonhardt]

And more recently, I think your image on immigration has changed in your campaign. You criticize Joe Biden's open immigration policy. You co sponsored the Lake and Riley act, which calls for the detention of undocumented immigrants who've committed certain crimes even before the court trial has happened. How would you describe your own personal evolution or not on immigration?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

It hasn't actually been that much of evolution. You know, why was I trying to recall Sheriff Joe? And he was racially profiling Americans. He was racially profiling Latinos because we were brown. He was pulling them over while driving. Brown. Nothing to do with immigration. Nothing else like that. Number one, that's. And, and then I will do it again should that ever happen again. Number two, I think the Democratic understanding of immigration and illegal immigration has always been pretty basic. And then it went awry, which is. Well, for border security, we're for humanitarian immigration reform and we're for reforming the visa, worker, permit. Something happened where all Of a sudden. Now, we were also supposed to be extremely liberal when it comes to asylum seekers.

[David Leonhardt]

When do you think that happened?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

It's sometime happening between Trump and Biden. And I think there was this overall reaction to Trump in his first term that a lot of people just assumed that this is where the new conversation went and that policy went when there was some of us that grew up, you know, both on the border one way or the other. I also lived in Mexico for a little bit and, you know, have family and odd levels of immigration going on through my whole life. When that started happening, a lot of us were like, whoa, whoa, that's not what we want. But nobody wanted to listen to us. And what happened was that a lot of policymakers started listening to some more liberal people about what was happening at the border.

[David Leonhardt]

Liberal people who claim to speak for the Latino community, correct?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yes.

[David Leonhardt]

And in many cases, liberal people who themselves are Latino, the ones getting a hearing in the administration.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yes, essentially. And because they. It was. They were in their little bubbles and, you know, without any personal experience, the administration just basically listened to them. And for us, that. That had always had the same position. Right. My position has not changed. I am for border security. Security. I am for immigration reform. Sane immigration reform. If you're a criminal, you should be convicted and deported. Right. That's never changed. The problem is we went totally to an area where a lot of Democrats weren't. And so my position, I think, is where traditionally Democrats have been, if you hear what Hillary Clinton was saying, if you hear what Barack Obama was saying, hear what Bill Clinton was saying about immigration, that's been the traditional place. What happened the last four years, what was absolutely out of norm of where Democrats are and why we lost, because I don't know where most Americans are. And now, if you see what's happening right now, most Americans are very unhappy. What's happening with immigration right now, because they like that the border is secure. And I get yelled at all the time because I say, you know, it's a good thing that the border is secure.

[David Leonhardt]

Meaning Trump is secure.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yes, exactly. That's a good thing. It's a value to this country that we have the lowest amount of illegal immigrants crossing the border right now. Now, what I want them to do now is let's do immigration reform, stop racially profiling, stop deploying national Guards to patrol these streets that are supposedly are dangerous, and really invest in a smart way of dealing with a broken system.

[David Leonhardt]

So I think that's what some Democrats who are in a little bit of a different place than you would say, which is there will be a time to debate the finer points of immigration policy and a time to vote for a bill like the Lake and Riley act or not vote for it. But this isn't that time. We've got federal agents in masks picking people up off the street. We've got the President deporting people to a horrible foreign prison without due process. We've got the president and his administration racially profiling Latinos based on the way they have to do both and speak. And so you have.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Because here's why you have to do both, David. If you give the voter the option of saying either we're going to have security that's way too strong or no security at all, they're going to give the more security side the benefit of doubt. So the Democrats, we had to have, have a position that is a position that Americans can gather to and say, you know what? I totally disagree what this guy's doing, you know, with the. The roundups, the deportations, everything else like that. What I want to see is what the Democrats are proposing and what they're proposing is where. Where I am. If we're only oppositional and just saying, no, no, no, we're going to end up losing this argument in the end because people generally want to be secure. And if we don't give them some type of idea of what we're bringing, they're going to go to whoever is giving them any type of security.

[David Leonhardt]

Let me read you what Governor J.B. pritzker of Illinois recently said. He said this is exactly the moment for people to stand up. And do I see enough people doing it? No, I don't. Do you disagree with that?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I think this is the moment to stand up. I think there are people that are moving into the fight. This is not a very easy situation for, I think a lot of people in your everyday American. You know why? It's not that they want an open border. It's not that they want people deported. There's just a lot of stuff going on in their lives right now. There's just a lot of stuff. And you know, from talking to my family that's still in Chicago, they're afraid. I mean, this is the first time that they're being picked up, afraid of being picked up. They're afraid for their country, you know, asking for people to take action. Right now. Now it's not as easy as it sounds because people are generally afraid of what could happen. And that is part of this, I think decision making that's happening right now, but it's not like we're going to be able to protest like we used to back in the day, because people are generally afraid for their personal safety.

[David Leonhardt]

I think I've also heard you suggesting that Democrats need to be strategic about this, and you probably wouldn't put it this way, but not always stand on principle. So after.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I would never put it that way.

[David Leonhardt]

Well, I know you wouldn't, but that's why I want to push you a little bit. It feels fair. So you. I read an interview where you were discussing Trump's deportation of alleged gang members to El Salvador, and you said it's important to defend due process. And look, you've criticized Trump, as you're doing here, but you also said Democrats shouldn't quote, just jump and automatically assume that, number one, that the person you're advocating for is someone that people can empathize with. And so I'm kind of interested in. In. You basically said, look, that was an unjust deportation, but it's not the fight we want to have.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yes, it's look, you got to be smart about this. You know, there's very perfect examples, you know, throughout any type of movement. You know, I'll give you a good example. When Rosa Parks was arrested for refusing to go to the back of the bus, it wasn't coincidence that it was Rosa Parks. They had purposely, you know, vetted a lot of candidates to who would be the best example of this horrible segregation system. If we want to point out how awful this deportation system is, what it's doing to families, we should do it in a smart way. Let's find the most caring person, the person that people can empathize with, the person that says, I want that person to stay in our country. Right. Don't rush to a fight that someone has already set up, because these guys. And I think a lot of people don't quite understand. Donald Trump's people are smart. They set up traps of this nature all the time, and they love nothing more for us to just run in there and just get into it with them. And they have all the advantages. They've already set up up the field to fight in. They have all the information, and we're just, you know, playing catch up if you want to win. And I think that's the ultimate goal. Let's be smart about actually doing this. Right. Why not use, you know, the people that can actually connect with this issue.

[David Leonhardt]

And this is a podcast series about what America's Next Story should be and what you're saying is be smart about the story that the Democratic Party is telling.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Absolutely. We have to want to win and we have to plan to win. Those things don't necessarily happen in Democratic politics. And I've seen it over and over and over again. I've never lost a race every time I run. And the reason I've never lost a race is largely because I don't bring any political perspective. I bring a Marine perspective to this. The Marines that teach you everything is about mission objective first, and then you build your whole campaign, your whole plan, your whole battle plan around mission objective, and you're agnostic about it. And so when we ran for, you know, the House, for the Senate, you know, I figured out what did I need to win, Put the plan together and go. Democrats sometimes try to stumble into victories and that might be fine, but this really means people's lives are in danger. Democrats not winning in 2024, in 2016, really cost us a lot of our positions and values that are going to be in danger for quite a while.

[David Leonhardt]

And I would say that I think sometimes Democrats confuse the story that they want to be the winning message with the one that actually is going to be the one.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yes. Because it makes them uncomfortable. Then why are we doing this right? We need to win. With us not winning, we don't have the Supreme Court. We won't have the Supreme Court for quite a while. Us now picking up a couple Senate seats for the last couple years puts us out of potentially holding power again in the Senate. All the victories we avoided because we were afraid of these conversations, these icky conversations. Look what's happening to this country now.

[David Leonhardt]

And there's a class aspect of this, which is the people. People who often find these positions and conversations icky tend to be more affluent and more educated and in working class neighborhoods. Actually, people are quite willing to engage in these conversations for the most part.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

And they do all the time.

[David Leonhardt]

And they do all the time, like.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Going back to the big ass truck, everyone's like, oh, you look down, you're looking down on Latino men by saying, oh, they want a big ass truck. Quite the opposite, actually. The problem that happens in kind of elite Democratic politics is that we don't think that the voter is that smart. We believe that we have to dumb things down when, like the voters are fairly sophisticated, they not use sophisticated language or anything else of that nature, but they know what they're feeling and they know when we're throwing at and they will vote in their own interests until we're willing to Accept that until we're willing to actually have real conversations, we're going to be finding ourselves still on a declining support level.

[David Leonhardt]

Let's end by connecting your personal story with what you think the country's next story should be. So, as you mentioned, you grew up in Chicago. You grew up poor with a single mom and three sisters. And it's the kind of story in broad brush that I think used to feel more typical than it does today. There's less upward mobility. And I think a lot of Americans are understandably angry about a lot of things. And yet you made optimism absolutely central to your campaign. Here are the opening lines of the ad that introduced you to Arizona voters last year.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Growing up poor, the only thing I really had was the American dream, an opportunity. It's the one thing that we give every American, no matter where they are born in life.

[David Leonhardt]

I think for a lot of people, it's an incredibly inspiring story, whether it's one generation or whether it's three generations.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Eight generations, whatever it is.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

And it's often connected to the immigrant experience. And I guess I have to ask, do you still think we give that opportunity to every American?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I still think that we can. I think that the things that used to exist, the infrastructure of hope, of opportunity, is kind of slowly eroding. I think what we need to do as Democrats, as Americans, is put that back together. So for me, for me it was. I had a decent school. My mom was a secretary, wasn't great pay, but wasn't horrible pay. We had an affordable apartment. Yeah. I slept in the living room, but we stayed in that apartment. It was in the same school district. I had support all around me. I knew that if I got good grades, I could afford to go to college, I could get a scholarship. There was this idea that mice my sacrifice, my family sacrifice, was going to have an end result. What I hear, and this is why the campaign started the way it is, is because especially from working class people, they don't feel that anymore. And the, the future of America has to go back. Back to the future of where a Ruben Gallego felt comfortable and believing that the American dream was possible. Right. We have to be able to be able to tell, you know, the, the kid in Kentucky or the kid in California, yeah, you're poor. Yeah. You know, life sucks, but if you do this, this, this, you're going to be fine.

[David Leonhardt]

Right.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

And until we actually not just talk about it, but put back the policies and again, the infrastructure of how to become successful, how to get out of poverty, people aren't going to believe it.

[David Leonhardt]

Can I take a crack at telling you what I think you think America's next story should be?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Sure.

[David Leonhardt]

So it should be one part. Call it Rosa Parks moderation, respecting voters, meeting them where they are. I think it's one part populism. You talk about taking on the rich and powerful. I mean, you've said it. If you're in Congress and you're spending more time with the powerful than the powerless, you're doing the job wrong. And I think it's one part optimism. It is about the American dream. Is that fair?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

It's very fair. Look it. Honestly, I think if you. If I have to say what the future is, is the American dream. It's. It's the thing that's. That's driven us forever. It's what drove us to the shores here. It's what drove us west. It's what drove people from all over the world to come here. It's what drove me, you know, some really, really hard days. Like I remember, like, just being very angry as a young man. And it wasn't because of the situation that I was in. In my anger was the idea that I'm going to work so hard and I may not succeed, and I just don't think I want to have any other young man or woman have that feeling.

[David Leonhardt]

Senator Ruben Gallo, thank you. Thank you so much.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Thank you so much. All right. You got tears out of me, David. All right, you. Oh, sorry, son.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Don't you.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

That word.

[David Leonhardt]

If you like this show, follow it.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

On Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. The Opinions is produced by Derek Arthur, Vishaka Darba, Christina Samuluski and Jillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin and Alison Bruzek. Engineering, mixing and original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Sabaro and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Aman Sahota. The Fact Checked team is Kate Sinclair.

[David Leonhardt]

Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Christina Samulewski.

[David Leonhardt]

The director of Tyler Times Opinion Audio.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Is Annie Rose Strasser. There's a reason Chevy trucks are known for their dependability. It's because they show up no matter.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

The weather, push forward no matter the terrain, and deliver.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

That's why Chevrolet has earned more dependability awards for trucks than any other brand in 2025, according to J.D.

[David Leonhardt]

Power.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Because in every a Chevy truck, like every Chevy driver, dependability comes standard. Visit Chevy.com to learn more. Chevrolet received the highest total number of awards among all trucks. In the J.D. power 2025 U.S. vehicle Dependability Study awards based on 2022 models. Newer models may be shown. Visit jdpower.com awards for more details. Chevrolet Together, let's drive.