C (4:21)

Thanks for having me.

B (4:22)

So I want to begin with some of the pieces of the immigration enforcement we have now. I think the agency people have heard the most about in the last year is ice. What was ICE under Joe Biden, and how is it different now?

C (4:38)

So ICE is responsible for immigration enforcement within the interior of the country, going after people who've made it across the border, are living in American cities, and who are subject to deportation. That's who they were under the Biden administration, and that's who they are now. The difference is how they go about that work. So really, since the Ford era, we've had some level of priorities that immigration enforcement officials are supposed to follow for who they should go after versus who they shouldn't. Because throughout the United States history, we've had lots of unauthorized immigrants. Some are thought of sort of societally and in the eyes of government, as a problem, and others really not. They're minding their own business, they're doing jobs. And the Biden administration imposed the strictest form of priorities that we'd seen historically, where ICE was directed only to go after people who had very serious criminal records. The rest of the undocumented population was left alone. So ICE officials had to get permission if they wanted to go after somebody and arrest them and deport them. And the bar was concealed. Now, of course, there are no restrictions whatsoever. ICE has carte blanche permission to go after any immigrant in the United States without legal status. And ICE has always done lots of arrests, hundreds of thousands, some years, and consistently gone after these people with serious criminal records. But central to their approach was to make arrests happen in a way that was meant to be as safe as possible and as serious, seamless as possible. Not that this is going to sound great to people, but to describe it for you, what ICE agents did historically is that they would identify someone they wanted to arrest, do lots of work at a desk, on a computer before they ever pursued this person to confirm their identity, to confirm they had no claim to legal status in the United States. Once that work was done, they would often go to the person's house at 5 or 6 in the morning, knock on the door and try to take them into custody, often while other relatives are still sleeping and before they leave for work for the day. So, you know, I point out that this isn't gonna sound great because, of course, what I'm talking about is a situation where you'd have kids wake up in the morning and find out that their mom or dad was gone. But that approach was to minimize the kinds of chaos that we're seeing ICE really invite now. So I've talked to so many current and former ICE officials who are watching this happen, and they're really bewildered because it's as if ICE is now going against all of its former training to arrests, as dramatic as possible, to do them in the streets in front of the general public, kind of inviting conflicts that then lead to protesting and to escalations. And they're also filming a lot of these violent clashes, making them as dramatic as possible and prioritizing that over safety. So it's really just such a significant change. It's hard to understate. And part of it, I think, is because they're trying to, and I'm sure we'll get into this, really spread a certain level of fear that's intended to encourage people to leave the country on their own so that they don't have to make as many arrests. You know, they want to encourage self deportation. So it's absolutely the case that the look and feel of ICE is really different right now. I think people are right to feel that way. It's the massive increase in boots on the ground. It's the tactics that are being used. It's the locations that arrests are taking place. Historically, ICE had A policy that made courthouses, schools, and hospitals off limits for immigration enforcement for the same reason, to prioritize safety. That policy is now gone. And I think both for purposes of efficiency and getting as many deportations done as possible, but also playing into the drama now, you see ICE very frequently in those places.

B (8:32)

I want to pick up on something you said there, which is that many of the videos we're seeing, many of the vine clashes we're seeing, are staged to be that way. Something I've been tracking often with the Trump administration is the way it uses spectacle as policy, spectacle as message. Oftentimes this is less true in immigration, but oftentimes they're not changing rules so much as they are doing things, making sure the thing spreads virally, mimetically, so people understand that this government is different, things are different now. And I'd be curious to hear, and probably from maybe some of these past conversations you're having with former ICE officials, what they make of the propaganda, what they make of the videos, what they make of the clips, what they make of the visual spectacle being constructed around it all.

C (9:24)

When it comes to the former law enforcement officials, what they make of the propaganda is. Is grave concern because they feel like it's taking away from the legitimacy of this agency. I mean, ice, people will tell you, has always kind of been the redheaded stepchild of federal law enforcement. It's a less prestigious job, it's easier to get into than other federal law enforcement agencies, and it's always politicized. And so there was this real emphasis to learn the law and to apply the law with a certain degree of professionalism, to kind of give ICE more legitimacy as a serious federal law enforcement agency. My best impression of the situation is that whereas before there was very thorough training to explain what are people's civil rights, what is immigration law, what are your authorities and what are not your authorities. As a deportation officer now, training is dramatically truncated, and basically the message has come down to do what you gotta do to bring people into custody. So what I'm hearing from these former officials is that the propaganda and the videos are taking away from that impression, really making the public quite skeptical of them. And they feel that the same way about the fact that officers now are routinely wearing masks and refusing to identify themselves. All of it sort of takes away from how seriously they're viewed as a law enforcement agency.

B (10:48)

Who is ICE now? One of the things that surprised me when doing research for this episode was recognizing that now most of its enforcement agents are new recruits.

C (10:56)

That's Right. So we had about 7,000 ICE agents toward the end of the Biden administration. And the Trump administration says that they've hired 12,000 people since then. Some percentage are people who'd retired from immigration enforcement before, so they have some experience. But we're talking about a lot of new faces. They're trying to hire as many former law enforcement agents as they can, just to bring people in with some familiarity with how to do this type of work. But there are lots of people, it seems, within this new workforce who have absolutely no experience, who are learning how to enforce the law, how to carry a weapon, how to interact with the public. Just starting from square one right now.

B (11:37)

When you look at the way they're recruiting, when you look at the images they're using to recruit, the videos they're using to recruit, who do they seem to be targeting to you?

C (11:47)

So it varies. Some of the messaging says that the Department of Homeland Security is looking to hire patriots, looking to hire people who want to defend and protect the country. But we're also seeing a lot of explicit references to white nationalist ideas and the kind of dog whistles that we've all become used to when Trump is president. Used slogans, they've referenced songs, they've used images, they speak to Manifest Destiny and this idea that the United States was a land intended for white people. Language that I think to people who are unfamiliar with these phrases, it just seems kind of weird. It seems kind of old fashioned and strange and odd. But the fact is that if you're a member of the Proud Boys or you're a follower of QAnon, you recognize these exact phrases that are being used as a kind of call to action and to apply for a job as an ICE Age.

B (12:43)

I want to play you a clip from Stephen Miller, who went on TV to deliver a message to ICE agents under fire for brutality and aggression to all ICE officers.

E (12:57)

You have federal immunity in the conduct of your duties. And anybody who lays a hand on you or tries to stop you or tries to obstruct you is committing a felony. You have immunity to perform your duties. And no one, no city official, no state official, no illegal alien, no leftist agitator or domestic insurrectionist can prevent you from fulfilling your legal obligations and duties. And the Department of Justice has made clear that if officials cross that line into obstruction, into criminal conspiracy against the United States or against ICE officers, then they will face justice.

B (13:34)

What do you make of that?

C (13:36)

I make of that that Miller's trying to communicate to ICE and to these new members of ICE in particular, that they will not face consequences for use of force. Specifically, I think he's speaking to the ICE officer who shot Renee Goode in Minnesota last week and killed her, but also to officers who've used tear gas, who've pushed and shoved and arrested protesters, who've claimed that people who are filming them, impeding arrests and using that as a pretense to either take those people into custody or have some sort of violent altercation with them. It's very striking. I was talking to one former ICE official who told me that you would always fear discharging your weapon in an interaction, even a potentially violent and a dangerous one. Usually the concern was that officers would be too unwilling to use their gun because they worried about potential repercussions. And there were all these layers of investigation that would take place after a shooting. And so his fear when he was in ice for 30 years, was that he wouldn't use his gun in a moment when he needed to. And now it's almost as if the opposite fear is true. And we've seen within ICE, people losing their jobs, high level officials losing their jobs because they're not delivering enough deportations, they're not banning aggressive enough. And so I think Miller is just underscoring that argument that you're not gonna get in trouble for being too aggressive. And in fact, the only thing you will get in trouble for is not being aggressive enough.

B (15:15)

Tell me about that high level purge or turnover of leadership.

C (15:19)

So it's happened a couple of different times. The very head of ICE was replaced, a deputy was replaced, and then we've also seen several field office directors. So the ICE has the country divided into individual field offices, and those directors are the people who are overseeing the officers carrying these deportations, talking to them on a daily basis, communicating quotas and guidelines. And we've seen a significant number of those field office directors taken off of their duties and replaced with officials from the Border Patrol. I think that's really significant because the Border Patrol in general, reputationally, is viewed even within the Department of Homeland Security as a tougher and wild, wild west almost type of environment that they tend to work in. But also there are legal differences. What people's rights are at the border are different from their rights within the interior of the country.

B (16:13)

I'm glad you brought up Border Patrol, because I said at the beginning that I think people have heard the most about ice. But a lot of the very aggressive raids we're seeing now are led by certainly include Border Patrol. So tell me a bit about how that agency's mission and focus have changed over the past 18 months.

C (16:32)

So the border has been relatively, compared to the past, empty since Trump took office. And so you have a lot of border officials who are available and have been detailed to American cities to support ice. And I think that you're seeing the difference in the way that they're used to working in these interactions that we're watching in American cities. Border patrol officials operate in a different constitutional zone. Border patrol officials have a lot more freedom when it comes to how they stop and question people, source of information they can access. Very different from the Fourth Amendment protections that we're used to in the interior of the country. And I think some of the differences that we're seeing in how interior arrests look now versus how they did in the past may simply come down to training.

B (17:22)

Let me pick up on what you said at the beginning there, which is that the border has been very quiet since Trump took over. I mean, Trump did run for office promising to secure the southern border. I remember talking to Biden administration officials often during his term, and there was a huge upsurge in people crossing the border, people being stopped at the border. And you would get all these explanations that made it seem like it was quite out of their control that there were all these things happening in Latin America and problems in Venezuela and people fleeing. And they often treated it as outside the realm of policy. Now, in the last year of Biden's administration, they began to change policy and border crossing seemed to go down. What has Trump done, though, to basically, I don't want to say end people coming to southern border, but you look at the numbers and it is very, very, very low. What is the lesson of that?

C (18:18)

So I don't think the lesson is that the changes in numbers of people crossing the border is solely due to policy. I hear what you're saying. I'm very familiar with this debate. And I think that circumstances outside the United States and outside American policy are very relevant. I think a lot of times missing from that conversation is acknowledgement of the fact that there was a global pandemic and an incredible pent up demand for crossing borders, given the way that international economies struggled so much. You know, the US Recovered better than any country in the world economically. And so it makes sense that coming out of the pandemic with, with travel restrictions lifting abroad and with so many other countries suffering more than they were previously, that there was a huge pent up demand that contributed to the increase in people who crossed the border under the Biden administration, you know, you had millions of people leave Venezuela because of falling apart within that country and the regime there and the economy and public safety, you know, political dissidents were being jailed and killed, et cetera. And so at a certain point, everybody who was able to leave Venezuela has left Venezuela. And so I think there can be a real problem with just taking a slice of a moment in time and saying the Biden administration had record breaking immigration and leaving it at that to suggest that the only factors that had to do with the Biden administration and their policies were at fault for these really high numbers.

B (19:44)

I don't think I would say only factors, but I think I would be surprised. Although, tell me if this is your view, that the sense of American cruelty and the signal sent by the Trump administration and by these videos and by networks of immigrants coming here and what it is like to be here, I'm not saying it is good. I don't think you should close the border through sheer cruelty. But I mean, the numbers are very.

C (20:08)

Very, very low and it's definitely having an impact. So, getting to the other side of the conversation now, I completely agree with you. And I think there are a couple things going on here. Policy wise, Trump is sort of riding the wave of, of legal restrictions to asylum that the Biden administration put into place. So those numbers dropped precipitously even before the election. And I think it's undeniable that the Trump administration is benefiting in terms of these low numbers from the public messaging campaign that they have going on right now. I mean, there's this long standing debate about whether deterrence works, whether imposing consequences, legal consequences, putting people into jail or deporting them can in a significant way decrease the number of people crossing the border. I think that what the Trump administration is doing is going far beyond deterrence. Right. They're spreading this message of fear internationally and frankly, conveying an image of the United States that doesn't make it look like the type of place that people want to seek refuge. You know, the rule of law is a huge part of what makes the United States the most attractive country in the world for migration. And when you turn on the news and you look at what's happening in the United States right now, it doesn't look like a place where the rule of law is still in effect or where the country is necessarily free to participate in basic democratic freedoms like voting and like protesting. You know, there's a lot of violence in the streets right now. And so I think that is having a significant impact on the number of people who are crossing the border. You know, you're not gonna seek safety in a place that, that doesn't look very safe.

B (21:48)

You often have immigrants coming here because they have a credible fear of persecution where they're from. And it often seems to me that the Trump administration's policy is meant to create a credible fear of persecution here. Like, why would you go somewhere where these things could happen to you?

C (22:06)

Exactly. That's a good way of putting it. Just to look at the standard for what asylum requires. And, and that's why, you know, we're seeing people leave and we don't know the exact numbers of how many people have left the United States. And we don't really have reason to believe that the 1.9 million number that the Trump administration is touting is accurate. But I am hearing on a regular basis about people, especially people in so called mixed status families, where you have a mom or a dad who's undocumented and the rest of the family who are United States citizens who are deciding that it's no longer worth it to stay in the United States. I think it's gonna be years before we have a good sen of how many those people are. But it does feel like the calculation is changing.

B (22:49)

So, as you say, the border, through whatever mix of mechanisms, has gone quiet that has created the space to focus the Border Patrol on the interior of the country. What does it mean to have the Border Patrol focused on the interior of the country, both in terms of operations, but also in terms of, I guess, the sort of deeper question about the way the Trump administration is looking at the country itself and what its problems are.

C (23:20)

So operationally, it means a lot more boots on the ground. It means a lot more arrests and a lot more deportations. I think that because ICE and ICE field office directors are primarily dealing with people who have long standing ties to the country and direct relationships with American citizens, are often represented by lawyers. They're used to being held to a higher level of scrutiny. People who work along the border are mostly dealing with folks who are trying to enter the United States for the very first time, may not speak English, are not represented by lawyers and people who just don't have an expectation of basic rights and protections in the way that American citizens do. And so when you put officials from that agency into American cities, you have this incredible clash of expectations versus how these border officials are used to working. To your question about the deeper meaning, The Border Patrol is a law enforcement agency that is supposed to fortify the exterior of the United States and keep people who are unwanted out from entering the country in accordance with the laws and the policies that we have, et cetera. Now you have that force of people moving into the center, moving throughout our cities and communities, and really creating this impression that there are outsiders, that there are others, that there are unwanteds everywhere among us. And we see them, in fact, taking into custody American citizens. We see them taking into custody people who have legal status, stopping people and openly acknowledging that they're stopping people because of their physical appearance, because of their race, because of their accent. And so it really is sending this message of a sort of enemy within and I think helping to foster fear and division.

B (25:05)

A lot of the immigrants swept up in these raids and in some of these policies, they have, or at least until very recently, had some legal status. And we've been talking about, at least in theory, people here without legal status. But how have things changed for many of the people who came in with some legal status, even temporary legal status?

C (25:29)

Yeah, a million and a half people lost their temporary legal status from the Biden administration into the Trump administration. It was interesting to see how Trump campaigned, really fudging data and referring to everybody who came into the United States.

B (25:44)

You're kidding me.

C (25:45)

I know it's a shock under the Biden administration, as illegal, as unauthorized. And, you know, it was just such a blatant misrepresentation of the reality when someone has, you know, for better or worse, whether or not you like this program, someone who's filled out an application, who's been invited to an interview, who's undergone an interview, and then after being vetted, allowed into the country, to all of a sudden call them illegal is just such a bait and switch. But we're also seeing now the Trump administration reopening refugees cases and trying to relitigate Vetting that, in that case can take years. So it's not even just people without legal status. It's sort of anyone that they can can figure out a way to claw legal status back from as well.

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B (27:53)

You've done a lot of reporting on what it is like to be caught up in these raids. You've talked to people in them. I mean, people I think have seen many clips. But what are some stories that stand out to you? What happens if you're an immigrant or you're nearby, an unauthorized immigrant, or you're in the building that they've decided to target? What is it like?

C (28:15)

What I'm hearing now is just that people are living with a really high level of panic. And that's exactly what the Trump administration wants. And so people without legal status in moments like this, keep in really close touch with one another. There are networks of communication. People use WhatsApp, people use Facebook to try to let one another know in advance if someone has seen ICE or if a raid is going on. You know, I've talked to kids who've told me that they look outside in the morning before their undocumented parent goes to work and they watch them walk out the front door, walk to their car, and that they monitor their parents obsessively like all day on Find my on their iPhones to just try to track their parents location. So it's just this 247 paranoia that people are dealing with. And I've talked to law enforcement officials about this too. I mean, specifically talking about Renee Goode's death. I spoke to a bunch of officials who reviewed the video there and said from the very beginning, you know, the first officer who runs up to her car, uses expletives, tells her to get out, starts trying to force open the door. These officers said to me, there's no reason to not approach her and say, ma', am, can you shut off your car and please open the door? And that's in fact how you want to approach a civilian. Someone who has never been arrested before isn't used to being screamed at in the face by police, but they're coming at people in these arrests with such aggression that it's making people panic. And I think that is leading to some of the more violent incidents that we're seeing. You know, people getting hurt and thrown to the ground or worse, I can't.

B (29:54)

Tell, although I have a suspicion to what degree that is the actual policy I mean, from the beginning, as these raids have and these occupations have escalated in their size and their aggression, in their framing and their propaganda, it has always looked to me like they are creating the conditions for these tragedies to occur. And that is a fairly common thing in authoritarian regimes. We've seen this in other countries. We've seen it in history, where you attack your own population and you look for pretexts then to escalate that. The question is not how to prevent the killing of Renee Goode from happening again, but actually how to escalate around the killing of Renee Goode in order to catch more of the Trump administration's enemies in their net. Call the protesters domestic terrorists, et cetera. It's not exactly knowable, but it is a very important distinction whether this is seen by the Trump administration as a tragedy. We need to think about how we are training our troops versus part of the policy.

C (31:12)

Actually, one thing that can be helpful is that the Trump administration usually signals what they want to do before they do it. So, for example, with Title 42, the COVID Era border ban, Stephen Miller tried for years to figure out a way to completely cut off access to the southern border and shut down asylum. And then finally, the COVID 19 pandemic came around and gave him the pretense that made White House lawyers say, okay, now is the time we can shut down the border. I think something similar is happening with the Insurrection Act. Trump has been threatening to invoke the Insurrection act since his first presidency, and it's coming up again now. And so I can see why you're saying that there's a perception that there's a desire to create the conditions that would justify something like that as an even further escalation. We've seen so many. I don't have the sense that individual ICE officers are being told, escalate things as much as possible, make sure things get violent would be pretty reckless and actionable legally. But what I think we are seeing very clearly and in Stephen Miller's message that you played a few minutes ago, is that the idea is, do what you have to do. Don't focus so much on the laws and the rules and civil rights. Focus on getting people into custody at any cost.

B (32:30)

We've been talking about physical rates, but one thing you've written about is how the OBBBA bill, which included a huge amount of money for ice, for Border Patrol, for the Department of Homeland Security, that included all of that money for advanced technology and surveillance systems, and that the effort to build a very different form of surveillance network, particularly given advances in AI and digital tools, is ongoing and might create something that is around for a long time. What can you tell me about what's being done or envisioned there?

C (33:05)

So a lot of this is really being kept under wraps by the security contractors that are involved. But from what we can see in the public requests for proposals, ICE is really increasing its use of facial recognition technology, both at the border and within the interior of the country, and then hiring companies like Palantir to collect as much data, really to create almost dossiers on people, drawing from their education records, their financial records, their social media accounts, accounts, utilities, et cetera, and try to create files on immigrants. And there's also data on people's cars and their license plates and just to kind of be able to constantly monitor and locate people. And I think there are lots of concerns about what happens with all that data and who is being swept into these collection efforts. I think it's pretty impossible to keep American citizens out, you know, when you're collecting video for the purposes of facial recognition, whether it's at the border, when people are coming home from their vacation, or within the interior of the country. You know, I think what it comes down to is just collecting a massive amount of information on people that can be used to track them down more easily, but also to monitor their behaviors and their activities. And I think that's important because of what you mentioned earlier, this expanded use of labels like domestic terrorist that the Department of Homeland Security is sprinkling into its messaging that we've seen in a presidential action memo from Trump himself. This memo that hasn't gotten, I think, as much attention as it deserves, is very broad in its definition. It says that domestic terrorists tend to espouse views such as enlist anti capitalism, anti Christianity, views opposing the traditional American family, and even extremism, on which, of course, this administration would describe anybody who is out in the streets protesting or trying to protect immigrants without legal status in their communities. You can't imagine language that's more broad. And so I think that's one of the things that makes this technology so concerning.

B (35:24)

You wrote something that I think has really stuck in my head all year, that after the oppba, the amount of money going to domestic immigration enforcement is larger than the budgets of any military in the world, save the US Or China. And in addition to worrying about that on behalf of immigrants, when you think about these questions like surveillance, when you think about how Trump talks about domestic opposition, how Stephen Miller talks about domestic opposition, I think something That I fear, that I see, I would say the shadows of. But I think it's actually much more visible than that is an infrastructure that could be turned against all kinds of internal targets. Political opposition, media, protesters, anybody they don't like. You've seen very strange as picking up of random academics and students and it seems that it has something to do with social media posts. When people build infrastructures like this, they tend to get used. It's very, very hard to resist using what you have and when you're as radical administration as this one is. So I guess I'm asking how the infrastructure itself looks to you. There's what it's being used for now. But when you think about how many new agents this is, how much more they're spending on new weapons for the new agents. When you think about the surveillance, when you think about which we'll talk about in a min, the dramatic increase in detention centers, what does that look like?

C (37:10)

The money is so staggering and unprecedented that we don't have an image in the past that we can look to to try to guess where all of this is going. But as you pointed out, it's a military sized budget and it's leading to so physical changes to the country. Large detention centers that are already starting to grow to spring up and that the administration wants to dramatically increase boots on the ground in American cities. You know, armed officers who are questioning people asking for proof of citizenship, accosting them, who are hostile to protesters and anybody willing to question their work. Although I think it's important to acknowledge that it's not typical the level of pushback that law enforcement is facing in the streets either. I think, you know, they are facing an unprecedented level of challenge to their work and all of that is contributing to the conflicts that we're seeing and the chaos that we're seeing. I think it just looks like a very different country than we're used to. I mean we're starting to see what that image is. We can see it on social media and on the videos that have gone viral so far. Though most of those incidents are relatively isolated. Most of the country can look at those videos and say, wow, that looks really scary. But then walk outside their front door and go to work and mostly have the same experience that they were used to prior. I think those videos are going to become the reality more and more in American communities because the money is there, as you said, the mission is there, the mandate is there, the money is there. One of the only checks that remains are the federal courts and we are seeing significant challenges in federal court to some of what the Trump administration is trying to do. But the courts are sort of hanging on their own right now as a check. Congress has been quiet other than to fund this massive expansion. So I really think that we're looking at a reality with this 170/billion dollars for immigration enforcement that involves armed law enforcement in the streets as a regular fixture of our lives of chaotic conflicts in the streets is something that we're going to become accustomed to. And massive detention centers that are going to come up and that are going to be built for the purposes of holding people and then getting them out of the country.

B (39:38)

Tell me about those detention centers, because that was a huge space of new funding in the obbba. How are they using the detention differently? And what do they seem to be envisioning for detention, you know, in a year or two?

C (39:51)

So the number of immigration detention facilities in use has dramatically increased since Trump took office. And they're really just getting started with spending the $45 billion that were specifically dedicated to detention in the one big beautiful Bill Act. This means that private prison companies and counties that want to rent bed space to ICE are going to be able to profit really significantly on increasing the detained population. So when Biden left office, the detained population of immigrants was around 39,000 people. Now it's 70,000 people. You know, you need to be able to detain people to effectuate deportations. And at times, a lack of detention space has held them back. There was a time last year when I was reporting in Atlanta, and people who were going to the downtown ICE field office for their ICE check ins were being arrested and put into immigration custody. Many of them were folks who had temporary legal status under the Biden administration and then had that eliminated when Trump took office. And then a few weeks after I started reporting on this issue, I started to hear that people were going into their ICE check ins once again and having this normal interaction where they would tell the officer what they'd been up to, where they were living, and be told to come back in six months or a year. And I asked what the difference was, and it was just that the detention facilities in Georgia had filled up in the intervening time. So really who was being arrested and who wasn't had nothing to do with the circumstances of their case, with whether they were a legitimate threat to the public or not. It was, is there a bed to put them in? And so I think the Trump administration really wants to eliminate the possibility that limited bed space could hold them back so, you know, immigration detention is legally not actually meant to be punitive, which is a little bit ironic, given what we know about the health and safety conditions in detention centers. Lots of people are dying in detention, more than in years past, which is a huge concern for people. But there's also problems with access to legal representation, with adequate food and sanitation, and medical care. So the Trump administration is very much seeing this dramatic expansion of the detention system as an important part of immigration enforcement.

B (42:04)

We've been talking about places where the Trump administration is trying to dramatically expand the capacity of immigration enforcement. More ICE agents, more Border Patrol agents, more detention centers. One very odd thing about the OBBBA is it capped the number of immigration judges at 800. What was that? And what does it reflect about how they're using the immigration courts?

C (42:29)

That was a head scratcher. It was one of the only caps that existed in the entire bill. Everything else seems to be about sort of limitless spending. So there's been a lot of churn on the immigration court since Trump took office. They've fired dozens of judges, mostly ones, it seems, granting too many requests for relief, requests to remain in the United States, and replacing them with people who they think will be more harsh. And you're seeing that reflected in the denial rates. So overall asylum denial rates were around 50% when Biden left office, and now they're up to 84%. Immigration courts are a kind of choke point for deportations, because you've got someone in custody, but if they have access to a legal remedy, then they're gonna fight their case. And sometimes those cases take years. I think one thing that the cap on Jud could reflect is that the Trump administration is trying to find ways that go around the immigration courts to remove people. So they're trying to expand the use of something called expedited removal, which allows for people to be deported without going before a judge and trying to fight their case. They want to be able to effectuate removals more quickly and just go around the courts entirely if they can.

B (43:41)

You spent some time reporting on an immigration court in Virginia. Tell me what you saw there.

C (43:47)

So my reporting was actually done on Zoom because immigration court was being done virtually so that it could go more quickly. That's something that started during the pandemic and that's continued into this administration as all messaging and goals and systems are being modified to effectuate deportations as quickly and efficiently as possible. So what I saw was a judge sitting in an empty courtroom and looking into boxes on her screen, calling people up and moving incredibly quickly through their cases. Most people in court that day were unrepresented by lawyers. People may or may not know in immigration court, you don't have the right to an attorney if you can't afford one, or to a jury of your peers. And people were panicked. They were in shambles. I definitely saw the change in this administration wherein most people who are being arrested by ICE on a given day have been in the United States for a long time and have no criminal record in that. You know, I was hearing parents break down in tears, crying and saying, you know, I'm worried about my child. There was one father in particular in my story who said he was arrested in front of his two youngest children, who were both under five years old. He said he was desperately worried about how they were going to survive without him, people like this father. But others, too, were asking about their children and how they were going to be dealt with because they'd been taken away from their children when they were arrested. And the judge really seemed uninterested in answering their questions, was just moving very quickly through their cases. You know, there's all this focus on numbers. Each one of them, I was reminded in court, is not a number, is a person, and has family and has employers and a community that is impacted each time that this happens. So I was just. I was really struck by the speed with which this judge was moving through cases. You know, you could tell that a lot of people were confused. You have a lot of people for whom English is a second language, or maybe the. They don't speak English at all who are in immigration court. And the zoom hearings make it that much more difficult because you might have inconsistent video. The translation might not be as good quality as it could be. It seemed to me that some people whose cases were being heard didn't even fully understand what the judge had decided she would issue a ruling. These were preliminary hearings, so for the most part, people were gonna be coming back for a subsequent hearing. But some people after that first hearing stipulate to their removal. And I was concerned that it's. It seemed some people didn't really know what they were agreeing to because the proceedings were moving so fast.

B (46:20)

Something I think people have heard about is this move towards third country removal, where somebody is making an asylum claim, where they've come here and we are deporting them to Uganda or somewhere and saying, deal with it there. What is that policy? How is it being used? How is it legal?

C (46:38)

So the Trump administration is also using its diplomatic might to get other countries on board with its mass deportation effort. I mean, it's sort of amazing. Anybody from a city mayor to a business owner to a leader of a foreign country, if they come to President Trump, right now, the message seems to be, bring me something on immigration if you want to work together. And so through diplomatic efforts and through pressure campaigns, the Trump administration has convinced several dozen countries to accept deportees who are from other parts of the world. In theory, this is to address the problem that some countries don't accept deportees from the United States. That's their way of pushing back against the United States and American foreign policy is to say, we're not going to accept people who you want to deport to us. In reality, that was always a small number of people. I think this third country removal program is really a scare tactic more than anything else. I mean, even though we have relationships with, I think, more than 40 countries that have been established, and I think the administration is in negotiations with more than 60 Currently, there are more coming online regularly. You only have a few hundred people who actually have been removed to a third country. But we've been talking about this fear campaign that's designed to convince immigrants living in the United States to leave and discourage anybody thinking about coming here from doing so. What is scarier than knowing that you may not only be deported, you may be deported to a poor country where you don't speak the language and you don't have any relationships or anyone to protect you and keep you safe. So I really think that the third country removals, which are legally dubious, they've been challenged, but they have been carried out so far, are more about the fear campaign. They're not really logistically feasible on a large scale. They don't really make sense as a foreign policy initiative, but they're very intimidating.

B (48:33)

I've been thinking about something I heard Chris Ruffo, the right wing activist who's inspired many of the Trump administration's activities, say, and I want to play it.

D (48:40)

For you, you're never going to have enough muscle, enough kind of logistical force to deport 15 million people, you know, in handcuffs. And then also, it's just not, it's not possible, it's not practical, it's not feasible, it's probably not wise because then the narrative is going to turn because you're going to start making mistakes because you're expanding at such an extraordinary logistical rate. So what do you do? The solution, as you suggested, is you. You have to shift the incentives so that there's re migration sometimes called self deportation. So voluntary exit. And this is where I think the rubber meets the road and where it's going to be difficult for the Trump administration.

B (49:23)

I think that gets to what at least some of the underlying strategy is. They don't as much as they are expanding, they are not expanding at the rate or to the numbers and do not have the political support to go door to door and deport the numbers of people they seem to want to deport. It does seem their strategy is to make it so miserable and frightening to be here that very large numbers of people leave. Do you believe that that's a long.

C (49:49)

Standing strategy on the right, that kind of the most prominent anti immigrant or restrictionist, even elected officials, but also activist groups have pushed for a really long time. And I think it's just the degree to which the administration is willing to pursue this, that that is the change. But yes, this idea of pushing for self deportations has been popular for a really long time among people like Stephen Miller. And it was just once a fringe idea and now it isn't. You know, in the past, the ways that states and municipalities would go about this was by doing things like not letting people without legal status get driver's licenses, not letting their kids get in state tuition in schools. Now it's very different. It's those things. Plus you might be violently arrested. Your relatives, even those who are legal immigrants or citizens might be stopped and accosted based on how they look or what their accent is. I mean, it's just so much more aggressive. But absolutely. You know, the administration has been open about the fact that they're trying to encourage people to self deport. You know, they post memes and videos, videos making fun of undocumented immigrants and basically telling them to get out of here or else. So yes, absolutely. I think that they've also shown a willingness to inflate the numbers and kind of claim victory and success before there's evidence to support it. It really is all about messaging more than it is substance. I mentioned they're claiming that 1.9 million people have self deported. Experts have looked into that number. It seems to be based on a census report that was done with a very small sample size, not taking into account that it's not very likely immigrants are going to be fully forthright or even participate in any kind of a census count right now, given the environment of fear that we're in. And so they extrapolated from this very small census and declared that 1.9 million people had left the country, which does not seem true.

G (52:02)

Hi, this is Lori Leibovich, editor of well at the New York Times. There's a lot of misinformation in the health and wellness space. But at the New York Times, no matter what the topic, we apply the same journalistic standards to everything we write write about, whether it's the gut microbiome or how to get a good night's sleep. Even if we're talking about something like is it bad for me to drink coffee on an empty stomach? Everything that our readers get when they dig into a well article has been vetted. Our reporters are consulting experts, calling dozens of people doing the research. It can go on for months so that you can make great decisions about your physical health and your mental health. We take our reporting extra seriously because we know New York Times subscribers are counting on us. If you already subscribe, thank you. If you'd like to subscribe, go to nytimes.com subscribe.

B (53:01)

So I want to, with all this in mind, get at what has been happening in Minneapolis. What was the administration's justification for this operation?

C (53:11)

So the administration said this operation in Minneapolis had to take place because of rampant fraud there. And there is a long standing federal investigation going on about COVID 19 relief funds and fraud in Minnesota. But really Trump seems to have latched onto this video that was posted online by Nick Shirley. He's this young right wing social media video influencer who went around Minneapolis to daycare sites claiming that they were fraudulent, that they had no children inside, when in fact, of course a strange man who's showing up outside of a daycare videoing what's going on is probably not going to let that person inside to see children if there are children with young children.

B (53:59)

The idea that I would want my daycare if somebody like knocked on there and be like show me the kids and he here like letting them in.

C (54:05)

You probably don't wanna let that guy in. And we don't know there is active investigation going on in Minnesota about legitimate fraud.

B (54:13)

That it's does not mean there's not fraud, but it does mean that. I'm not sure I would take that video. Strong evidence.

C (54:17)

Exactly. But the administration took it and ran with it and launched what they're calling the largest immigration enforcement operation in the country as a result of it. There are so many things to talk about with sort of what's going wrong in Minnesota. One thing to point out though is that fraud, again, even if it's happening, is a white collar crime. And so the idea that it deserves a response that involves weapons and officers in the street. And stopping people at random really doesn't make sense. I mean, the way that you research fraud is on the computer. You're looking at records, you're maybe eventually going out and doing some investigative work to shore up what people have claimed to be true about their businesses. You do not catch fraud by stopping people at random in the street.

B (55:01)

I will note that they've also gutted Republicans over time. The IRS's fraud division, there's a lot of tax fraud. It is a lot bigger than daycare fraud in Minnesota. And the, I would say concern with taxpayer money not showing up where it should seems a little bit selective to me here.

C (55:18)

That's right. I mean, I was talking to one political analyst yesterday about what's happening in Minnesota with this fraud scheme. I thought he put it really well. Labeling Somali immigrants as fraudsters almost seems like Trump's version of Ronald Reagan's welfare queen, which is really convenient at a time when the country is realizing that this promise of only focusing immigration enforcement on hardened criminals isn't being kept that far. More people are being swept up by ICE than the public initially expected. People are turning away from and are questioning this campaign. And so if you can instead send this message that suggests that most or all immigrants, maybe all Somali immigrants, maybe all African immigrants, maybe all immigrants in Minnesota, who knows? If you can suggest kind of vaguely that they may most or all be involved in some rampant fraud scheme that involves taking public dollars that are supposed to be going toward kids for their own personal use, it makes people a little bit more sympathetic toward the fact that this campaign doesn't look the way that they wanted it to or that they think they want.

B (56:29)

Well, it also reflects the move towards these fraud arguments. And there is fraud out there. There's fraud from immigrants, There is much fraud from native born Americans. It reflects the appeal of conflict expansion, I think, for the Trump administration, which is to say they are pointing this at blue states where they can also use it as an attack on political enemies. So obviously, Tim Waltz, his political career seems to more or less be in shambles. Now. They've talked about moving into California to try to do this against Gavin Newsom and justify crackdowns in California. But I think for them both, the fraud thing is very amorphous and they're using it to justify widespread crackdowns. That, as you note correctly, is not how you run a fraud investigation, but it also creates an interface with the political system and the political leaders of blue states. So you can use it to go after your political enemies as well as it creates a bit of a twofer for them.

C (57:29)

You're right. And there are other examples of the administration focusing on fraud. I mean, accusing elected officials that they don't like of mortgage fraud, for example. I think you're making a good point that fraud is rampant. And who is pursued in a fraud investigation almost says more about who the investigator wants to target than the existence of the fraud itself, especially when you think about immigration. So the Trump administration is looking at denaturalizing people, taking their citizenship away, or preventing them from requesting asylum status based on a discrepancy between documents, just to walk people through the process. When you're applying for any form of legal status in the United States, you're filling out dozens and dozens of forms. And some people do it with a lawyer. A lot of people don't do it with a lawyer. But any layman would be confused by some of these questions in these applications that are being filled out. Sometimes the questions seem to conflict with one another. You know, one document seems to be putting a request one way, another a different way. And even people who are trying their best will end up with two documents that say two different things. And it could be very simple. You know, the omission of a middle name or an explanation of why you left the country on the day that you did or why you came. You know, did you put on one document that you came for work and another that you came to visit family when both were true. So that is extremely, really powerful pretense, or could be a really powerful pretense for again, clawing legal status back from a lot of people by claiming fraud. You know, when you're doing an audit on someone's entire life, you can find something. And even the most upstanding immigrants will tell you there's something on a document that could be used against them. And so it really isn't just an entree to focusing on the people, whether it's Democratic politicians or immigrants that the administration wants to go after.

B (59:21)

I want to talk here at the end about the ideology behind all of this. I mean, we are discussing, I think, the most significant change in policy under Donald Trump. This is a place where they've put the most energy, where they've gambled the most, where they're putting the most new money. It is very, very important to them. Why? When you listen to the Trump administration, its top officials, the people who seem to influence them, and they listen to what is their broad theory of immigration, why is it such a problem? What are they Trying to do what would be accomplished if they did succeed. What is the macro narrative they seem to believe here?

C (60:01)

Two prong answer. So there are some people within the Trump administration, and I would say Stephen Miller is their leader, who want a return to not just a majority white country, which of course we've always been, but one where white American culture is dominant, that we're not so much viewed as a diverse nation of immigrants, where different languages and different foods are celebrated, but one that is more purely a white supremacist country. Then you have people within the administration. And Trump I would consider to be the highest ranking, of course, among them, who've latched onto the subject of immigration because it gives him power. Power. So when Stephen Miller started working for Donald Trump in his first presidential candidacy, he was a speechwriter that people really weren't sure about until rallies started and until the president started to see the incredibly powerful reaction that he was getting every time he talked about immigration. And this led to Miller being empowered throughout that campaign, all the way up until Trump's first election, which, remember, stunned Trump and his inner circle. People did not expect him to win. And so this narrative solidified within that first Trump White House that Miller was responsible for Trump's success. I think everything that I've reported suggests that since then, Trump has held onto that commitment to immigration and that commitment to Miller, not because he is personally passionate about the issue. And I would say the same is probably true for people like Kristi Noem and Pam Bondi. These are people who wanna support the president and his consolidation of power and are latching on to immigration because. Because it seems to be working. I mean, they believe that that's why Trump has been so successful as a politician. So really, we're gonna have to look at the midterms and the next presidential election to see how much that holds. I do think that populist message, as misleading as it was, was very powerful and impactful to the electorate. But you are seeing the polling change. And, you know, at a certain point, when you create the image of these boogeymen and you promise this unprecedented deportation campaign, you're gonna have to do it. And then the untruths that you've been spreading are going to become obvious.

B (62:16)

I agree that power and ideology are braided for them. And I think that's why I worry particularly about the way in which the scaling up of immigration, funding of domestic law enforcement creates a kind of apparatus. It can be used in different ways. I look at the CBP and ice. I think about what their recruitment videos and social media presence looks like. I think about the people in the masks. I think about who would join it now, given how controversial it is. And it's very hard, as somebody who's read some history of other places, not to see the at least possibility of a domestic paramilitary force. How real or overstated do you find that concern?

C (63:03)

I mean, you don't want to be alarmist, of course. I know you don't either. But I don't think that it's overstated in the fact that the president himself has said that he'd like to unleash American troops within the interior of the country. But I think we do have to believe Trump when he says what he wants to do. And he has not gone so far as to say he plans to unleash a domestic paramilitary force. But I think he's also said lots of things, things that come very close to that. We have to take those seriously.

B (63:33)

I've seen a lot more discussion among particularly liberals, of what was once just a social media hashtag, which is abolishingice, and the view that after this, given its leadership, given who it's recruiting, that there's not going to be a way to reform this organization, that it's a younger agency, that you're just going to need to get rid of it, much like Trump got rid of usaid. What have you thought about that discussion?

C (63:59)

Usually when I hear Abolish ice, I think it's coming from the realization people are having about what our immigration laws actually are and what they allow, which is that anyone who does not have legal status in the country is subject to deportation. It doesn't matter if you're best friends with a bunch of families at church. It doesn't matter if you're beloved in your community. You've lived here for 20 years or 30 years. You've never committed a crime. You have a bunch of American children. They're in the military. You are subject to deportation if you don't have legal status. And for the vast majority of the undocumented population, there is no pathway to legal status. This is another thing that people don't realize. I got an email from a reader after a recent story saying to me, caitlin, you're writing about all these people you say have been in the United States for 15 or 16 years. Why don't they just become citizens instead of trying to leech off the system and refusing to pay taxes? And I had to write this person back and say, undocumented immigrants contribute billions of dollars to the American tax base every year. And trust me, if these folks in my story could have become citizens, they would have eagerly done so to avoid being detained and potentially deported. After so much time in the country, those options do not exist. And Congress controls all of that. ICE does not control that. ICE can only do what the law tells it to do. The law on its face says everybody who doesn't have status is deportable. You know, so even more so now, I could see people saying ice. They would want ICE to be abolished at some point in the future because you're gonna have this massive workforce that is disaligned with what I think a lot of people think immigration enforcement should look like in the United States. So my sense is that the country would not support a world in which there was no immigration enforcement. I don't see that as realistic possibility. But I think that a lot of the anger behind this abolished ICE message really comes out of people's frustration. And they may not realize this with what Congress has told ICE to do.

B (66:10)

Then I'll ask our final question. What are three books you recommend to the audience?

C (66:14)

Okay, so I'm gonna recommend Impossible Subjects by Mae Nye. This is kind of a holy grail book for immigration nerds, but it's eminently readable and it tells the story of Americ relationship to immigrants. Really helps people understand how we reached this moment and how immigration enforcement has really always been subjective. You know, it's never been as simple as figuring out who's legal and who isn't. It's really more been about who's desirable and who isn't. So I really recommend that book by Mae Nye. I also want to recommend Solito by Javier Zamora. Going in the complete different direction if you want to learn more about immigration in this moment. But you don't want to read about policy. You don't want to read anything wonky. You just want to read an incredibly beautiful story that helps you understand what it's like to come to the United States, to cross borders in general. What does it mean to be an immigrant? It's a gorgeous book. The last book that I'm going to recommend is Meditations for Mortals by Oliver Berkman. So I don't know about you, but to get through the last few years, meditation has been really critical for me. And I've read a million books about it. But this one is just incredibly accessible. So I think whether you've been reading about mindfulness for years and you need it refresher or you're trying to jump into it for the first time. I think this is a really great book to kind of get you started and help get you fortified, to learn about what's happening in the world right now and kind of understand your place in it and understand what to do about it. That's where I'd start.

B (67:50)

Caitlyn Dickerson, thank you very much.

C (67:52)

Thank you.

B (68:05)

This episode of the israel clancho is produced by jack mccordick. Fact checking by michelle harris. Our senior audio engineer is jeff geld with additional mixing by amin sahota. Our executive producer is claire gordon. The show's production team also includes annie galvin, marie cassion, marie marina king, roland hu, kristin lin, emma kelbeck and jan kobel. Original music by aman sahota, carol sabaro and pat mccusker. Audience strategy by christina semiluski and shannon busta. The director of new york times opinion audio is annie rose strasser. Special thanks to sarah stillman and aaron reichland. Melnick.

F (68:49)

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