Podcast Summary: The FAIK Files – "Inclusive, Empowering, & Confident Approaches to AI"
Host: Mason Amadeus (filling in for Perry Carpenter)
Guest: Jocelyn Burnham (AI Consultant)
Date: October 10, 2025
Overview
This episode features an in-depth interview with AI consultant Jocelyn Burnham. The conversation focuses on playful, empowering, and confident approaches to engaging with artificial intelligence, especially for the cultural sector. Jocelyn shares her experiences working with art institutions, museums, and even religious organizations, providing fresh perspectives on breaking down barriers to AI adoption, the power of play, and the need for greater diversity in shaping the future of AI. The tone is open, thoughtful, and occasionally irreverent.
Key Themes & Discussion Points
1. Jocelyn Burnham’s Background and Philosophy
- Jocelyn describes herself as someone who brings "play and weirdness" to AI work, helping organizations experiment within ethical boundaries (04:12).
- Her consultancy spans a broad range of clients—from art galleries to the Church of England—engaging them in understanding and meaningfully leveraging AI.
- Jocelyn emphasizes a value-neutral, exploratory approach:
“I don't go around saying it's a good or a bad thing. I think it's good when we play with stuff, it's good when we build stuff and it's good when we're critical too and kind of find our own voices.” (04:12)
2. AI in the Cultural Sector and Creative Industries
- Jocelyn primarily advises internal teams rather than outward-facing staff, meeting them where they are—often in a state of overwhelm due to AI “hype” (05:25).
- Her approach is to foster autonomy, encouraging clients to experiment themselves instead of prescribing solutions:
“They don't really need people like me and they can begin making their own experiments, finding their own voice in that conversation and also hopefully moving them away from the idea of AI is about efficiency and much more towards actually AI is about creating value...” (05:25)
- Practical examples include accessibility (e.g., alt text), internal feedback, and iterative improvements that "raise the floor" rather than the ceiling (06:59).
3. Engaging Unexpected Sectors: The Church of England
- Jocelyn shares her work with the Church of England, noting leaders’ surprising willingness to engage in AI discussions (08:49).
- Religious leaders are particularly concerned with authenticity and their emerging role as "verifiers of information" in an AI-driven world (09:52).
- Quote:
“A lot of it is about a real awareness that our roles are going to become much more about directing people towards authentic information and also spotting stuff in the wild which we know isn't truthful…” (09:52)
4. AI and Consensus-Building Tools
- Jocelyn highlights Google's DeepMind "Habermas Machine" (12:01), an AI tool designed to foster group consensus and facilitate polarizing discussions.
- This technology demonstrates AI's potential to not only automate, but also enhance collaborative social processes.
5. The Power of Play in AI Learning
- Jocelyn recounts her upbringing as an "unschooler," learning through play and curiosity (14:39).
- She advocates for play as an antidote to anxiety and as a tool for building AI literacy—even for skeptics:
“When you play, it's not the same as being positive about something. You can play to work out your own critical perspectives... All of this stuff can come through play.” (15:09)
- Play makes AI approachable, reduces fear, and fosters creative problem-solving.
6. Navigating Anxiety and Skepticism
- Many in the cultural sector are anxious about AI—concerns include environmental impact, copyright, bias, and concentration of power (17:09).
- Jocelyn's strategy is to encourage responsible experimentation as a form of self-defense and empowerment:
“You don't have to love AI, but hopefully for ourselves, we can get to the place where we don't fear the word. Because if we fear the word, we're not going to learn. And if we're not going to learn, we're not going to affect change.” (17:09)
7. Artist Backlash, Ethics, and Misinformation
- The discussion explores the vitriol in creative communities, with anecdotes of online mobs attacking artists for using AI as a tool (21:57).
- Jocelyn points out the impossibility of drawing a sharp line between human and AI-augmented content:
“If you've ever edited a Word document because you've had a green squiggly line, your work has been influenced by AI or AI generated...” (22:34)
- The conversation stresses honesty about AI's actual impact and the need to educate rather than stigmatize.
8. Ubiquity and Limitations of AI
- The hosts and Jocelyn joke about AI being “shoehorned” into everything from messaging apps to washing machines (25:47, 27:41).
“Even my washing machine has an AI mode right now. I didn't ask for this. I don't know what it does, but I use it anyway…” (27:45)
- The group discusses how most users interact with AI unintentionally and often lack agency.
9. Literacy, Empowerment, and Agency
- Jocelyn stresses the importance of AI literacy and users gaining control over technology, rather than being passively served and surveilled (31:30).
“I think agency building is so important. I think once you feel like you're making the tool, not Silicon Valley, then suddenly you're in the game, suddenly you're collaborating…” (31:30)
10. The Risk of Letting Silicon Valley Control the Narrative
- Avoiding engagement with AI means ceding influence to major tech and commercial interests:
“If we're all just avoiding it, then it's just the Silicon Valley tech Bros and the Elon Musk types that are going to be leading and deciding these things.” (32:55)
- Jocelyn advocates for more voices, especially from the culture sector, to step up and shape the technology.
11. Rethinking Online Identity and the Future of the Internet
- Discussion about the possible return to a more decentralized, anonymous, and fragmented Internet, as synthetic content explodes (34:21).
- Jocelyn sees a future where small, trusted communities become the norm again, with AI helping users build creative online personas (35:16).
12. Open Source, Commercialization, and the DeepSeek Reckoning
- The rise of open-source models like DeepSeek may disrupt the commercial AI landscape (38:47-41:45).
- Jocelyn questions the long-term business model for AI companies when optimized, powerful open models become widely available and communities “want models that reflect their values too” (38:47).
- The hosts note the negative effects of hyper-commercialization, algorithmic slop, and the data “gold rush.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “Play is something humans do naturally. It's just a case of applying it. It's a great learned way to discover the world and to also collaborate with people too.” —Jocelyn Burnham (21:14)
- “Our perceptions of where the frontier is is a little bit warped... it's probably further ahead than some people realize and further behind than some people realize, depending on the area.” —Jocelyn Burnham (24:58)
- “The real poison that is seeping into everything is the hyper commercialization of every aspect of your life. That is the real thing that is causing the most pain.” —Mason Amadeus (42:18)
- “I want the weirdos in art school to be the ones who are making the cool stuff.” —Jocelyn Burnham (33:18)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Jocelyn’s introduction and philosophy: 04:12–05:25
- AI in galleries and museums: 05:25–08:18
- Church of England as an AI client: 08:40–11:11
- Consensus-building tools (Habermas Machine): 12:01–13:22
- Learning through play and “unschooling”: 14:39–16:27
- Addressing AI anxieties and literacy: 17:09–18:36
- Artist community backlash and ethical complexities: 21:57–24:58
- Jocelyn’s stance on agency and empowerment: 31:30–31:57
- Discussion on Internet identity and the rise of synthetic content: 34:21–36:30
- Commercialization, open source, and DeepSeek reckoning: 38:47–43:53
Conclusion & Call to Action
- Jocelyn encourages anyone curious to connect via aiforculture.com or LinkedIn and underscores the importance of culture sector voices in shaping AI (45:05).
- The episode ends with a call for a playful, open-minded approach:
“This conversation is ours to have if we want to have it and I think if we have it, we will discover some really amazing capabilities…” (45:05)
Recommended for listeners interested in:
- Creative and critical approaches to AI
- Inclusion and diversity in tech adoption
- Digital culture and future of the Internet
- How art, ethics, and technology intertwine
Links:
Transcribed and summarized for clarity. All sections reference timestamps (MM:SS). Adverts and non-content portions excluded.