Did Pete Hegseth Commit a War Crime?

Summary

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The Find Out Podcast — Episode Summary

Episode: "Did Pete Hegseth Commit a War Crime?"

Date: December 2, 2025
Host(s): Tim, Chris, Rich, Zach
Guest: Dr. Nola Hayes (Adjunct Professor, Georgetown University, Foreign Policy Expert)

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1. Episode Overview

The Find Out Podcast tackles the incendiary revelations that Pete Hegseth, Trump’s Secretary of Defense, allegedly ordered the killing of survivors of a U.S. Navy SEAL attack on a Venezuelan vessel in the Caribbean. Amid bipartisan outrage and calls of “war crime” from media, the hosts and their expert guest, Dr. Nola Hayes, dissect the legal, ethical, and political questions. The conversation navigates U.S. foreign policy under Trump’s second term, the blurred line between war and extrajudicial killing, and what this incident signals for America’s standing in the world.

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2. Key Discussion Points and Insights

A. What happened with Pete Hegseth and the Navy Strike?

[02:00–04:41]

• News broke that Secretary Pete Hegseth ordered an additional strike on a Caribbean boat, a supposed drug runner, after two survivors were seen clinging to wreckage.
• Hegseth reportedly said, “Kill them all,” setting off accusations of a war crime and extrajudicial killings.
• Dr. Nola clarifies: “If my students were to answer ... and say war crime, I would dock them points. ... No one has declared war, not even Venezuela.... So to call this a war crime is ... incorrect.” (Dr. Nola, 03:39)

Key Insight:
The terminology matters: Not a war crime (as war hasn’t been declared), but rather “extrajudicial killing.”

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B. Legal and Ethical Ramifications

[04:41–09:00]

• Legally declared war allows for the targeting of enemy combatants. Here, the lack of declaration means “it pretty much just becomes murder ... or, in another way ... extrajudicial killing.” (Dr. Nola, 05:56)
• U.S. claims of big-time narcos being targeted are unsubstantiated. Investigative reporting suggests, “If they were dealing drugs, you’re talking about petty, petty, petty ... way down on the drug totem pole.” (Dr. Nola, 07:45)
• The administration is accused of using the “drug runner” narrative to distract from the illegality.

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C. The Absurdity of the Official Narrative

[09:00–12:00]

• Hosts highlight the Trump administration’s tendency to conflate drug trafficking threats, saying every boat hit is “saving 27,000 American lives,” which is “absurd.” (Chris, 09:19)
• Dr. Nola: The boats in question are simple fishing vessels, not capable of reaching the U.S. These are “not boats that were coming to the United States ... Exactly. What are we doing? ... We're making a mineral resource grab.” (Dr. Nola, 11:34)
• Diversions to unrelated interventions (e.g., Nicki Minaj at the UN, Nigeria) are used to “change the narrative as they are telling the narrative.” (Dr. Nola, 12:17)

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D. Foreign Policy Motives Behind the Incident

[13:17–15:57]

• U.S. actions seen as resource grabs and regional bullying, not rooted in legitimate security concerns:
  • “It’s this kind of really bullying, bullish foreign policy where the United States knows it's bigger and stronger, and so you're going to try and bully Venezuela, you're going to bully Nigeria.” (Dr. Nola, 15:40)
• The administration’s so-called “no new wars” pledge is derided as a sham: “He said no new wars, though we're lighting up fishermen left and right ... and, but it's not war, so we're totally great.” (Rich, 16:06–16:18)

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E. Alt-right & Meme Warfare

[16:43–19:27]

• Pete Hegseth posts a children’s-book-style meme (Franklin the Turtle as a commando) as a taunt, further stoking outrage and trivializing the killings.
  • “They use absurdities in their memes so that we spend our time debating what does this mean ... distracting us from ... how Pete Hegseth is going to jail.” (Chris, 17:57)
• Hegseth tagged “Southcom” (Southern Command), which oversees U.S. military operations in the region, in the meme—a move Dr. Nola calls “disgusting.” (18:37)

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F. Unusual Bipartisan Outrage & Potential Consequences

[19:27–23:32]

• Both parties’ House Armed Services Committee leaders issued a joint condemnation—a rare bipartisan move.
• Rich distinguishes the unprecedented nature of this incident: “Those two people that were clinging to wreckage ... that's what makes this markedly different ... should you double down and murder them out of the water ... that's the particularly brutal component here.” (Rich, 21:14–21:32)
• Dr. Nola: “The whole damn world is gonna check you on this one.” (Dr. Nola, 23:32)
• Past strikes had survivors who vanished without answers—a point of future whistleblower focus.

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G. Erosion of Military & National Security Morale

[25:52–27:18]

• Dr. Nola remarks on plummeting morale in the national security community: “We are having a situation where morale is low. People are not understanding what the mission is, and that's dangerous.” (Dr. Nola, 27:18)

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H. Where Do We Go From Here?

[27:18–29:54]

• The future is “messy and chaotic,” dependent on political and legal consequences.
• Dr. Nola: “Congress is the only body that can declare war. There's no declaration of war. So what are we doing? Do you want to back murder? That literally is your legacy.” (Dr. Nola, 28:40)
• Hints at possible cabinet shakeups, potential impeachment, and long-term reputational harm regardless of Trump’s personal fate.

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If my students...said war crime, I would dock them points.” (Dr. Nola Hayes, 03:39)
• “...when you're just out there killing people without any sort of legal authority...that pretty much just becomes murder or ... extrajudicial killing.” (Dr. Nola Hayes, 05:56)
• “These aren't boats that were coming to the United States...We're making a mineral resource grab.” (Dr. Nola Hayes, 11:34)
• “We've been trained by action movies ... but the critical difference here is those two people clinging to wreckage ... that's what makes this a markedly different conversation.” (Rich, 20:04–21:32)
• “The whole damn world is gonna check you on this one.” (Dr. Nola Hayes, 23:32)
• “Morale is low. People are not understanding what the mission is, and that's dangerous.” (Dr. Nola Hayes, 27:18)
• “Congress is the only body that can declare war...Do you want to back murder? That literally is your legacy.” (Dr. Nola Hayes, 28:40)
• “He wants to rename the Republican Party. ...the Trumplicans.” (Chris, 45:02) [Comic relief]

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4. Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:00] — Introduction and summary of the Hegseth-directed strike
• [03:39] — War crime vs. extrajudicial killing definition
• [07:26] — Journalism reveals the extent of “petty” drug involvement
• [09:19] — Administration’s inflated rhetoric around drug boat strikes
• [11:34] — Real motives: Resource grabs, not drug interdiction
• [15:40] — U.S. adopting regionally bullying foreign policy
• [17:16] — Breakdown of Hegseth’s offensive meme and its implications
• [20:04] — The “clinging to wreckage” detail as a moral and political inflection point
• [23:32] — “Who gonna check me, boo?” and the global response
• [25:52] — Military morale and ethical crisis
• [28:40] — Congress’s war powers and the GOP’s moral dilemma
• [31:04] & [45:02] — Comic asides: Alcatraz for Trump, “Trumplicans” renaming proposal

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5. Tone & Language

The conversation is both irreverent and incisive. The hosts oscillate between biting sarcasm (“I think this administration would use the word deterrence. I use the word bullying!” — Dr. Nola, 15:54) and sharp policy analysis. Dr. Nola brings authority and humor—referencing pop culture, memes, and academic rigor, all in one. The hosts are openly left-leaning, skeptical of MAGA narratives, but strive to differentiate hyperbole from actionable truths.

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6. Final Thoughts

• The incident transcends partisan politics, fracturing usual allegiances—even House GOP leadership speaks out.
• There’s broad concern about unchecked executive military action, the manipulation of national security for political ends, and the decline in institutional accountability.
• Everyone agrees: the issue isn’t just Hegseth or Trump. It’s about principle, legality, and America’s role on the world stage.
• Dr. Nola’s parting shot: Republican lawmakers must decide if they want “back murder” to be their legacy.

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Memorable Closing:
“You have no idea how emotional that just made me, because that really is my ministry.” (Dr. Nola Hayes, 32:48)

“We now know the person we call when people get blown up. That's Dr. Nola.” (Tim, 33:00)

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For listeners: This episode delivers a blend of high-stakes analysis, scathing humor, and a call for accountability in chaotic times. Dr. Nola’s clarity on legal definitions and foreign policy context is especially helpful for those seeking to separate “signal from noise.”

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Visit:

• Dr. Nola’s Substack: Security Brief
• Find Out Podcast: findoutpodcast.substack.com
• Follow hosts and guest on Threads and social media for updates

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Transcript

[Chris]

Foreign.

[Tim]

Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Find out podcast. We hope that you had a lovely long weekend with Thanksgiving, hopefully with your family and not paying attention to some of the completely absurd things that happened over the break. And we're going to talk about all of them. And we actually brought an expert on to talk to us about all of these things. With us today is Dr. We're going to call her Dr. Nola Hayes. But we're going to go Dr. Nola throughout this, who is an adjunct professor at Georgetown University, has more degrees than I can count, is an expert in foreign policy and all kinds of things. So, Dr. Nola, thank you for joining us today.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Thank you, Tim. I'm excited to be here and thank you for reading my bio that way because sometimes it is a bit ridiculous.

[Tim]

Well, I couldn't read the whole thing because it would take the whole show. You've done all kinds of amazing things. But unfortunately, we have to talk about some relatively serious matters. And again, for those of you who haven't heard, there was it came out this weekend that the secretary of Defense, I will not call him the secretary of War because that is stupid. Secretary of War.

[Rich]

I don't want to call him a secretary, though. Yes, I think that's appropriate.

[Tim]

Maybe we should just call him former weekend Fox and Friends anchor to be former secretary, which is really right.

[Chris]

That's you have to preface it with drunk weekend.

[Tim]

I mean, there's a couple of them.

[Chris]

On Fox, but not to be confused with Janine Pirro, who is the other drunk FOX News host who is now.

[Tim]

I believe she is the district attorney for D.C. or not the federal attorney or whatever it is.

[Chris]

Federal district attorney not appointed.

[Tim]

He just DC Shoved her in. Anyways, let's not talk about her because we have enough garbage we have to talk about here. So it came out this weekend that Pete Hegseth ordered an additional strike on one of the boats that the Navy SEALs have been striking in the Caribbean that they have claimed were drug runners. But in this particular case, it was clear that two, two people had survived the strike. They were hanging on to the side of what I only could imagine is fragments of the ship. And the quote I believe that we've all been given was he said, kill them all. And so this obviously set off a firestorm this weekend, people calling it a war crime, people calling it extrajudicial killing. And that's why we wanted Dr. Nola to come on and talk to us about this, because these, these distinctions matter. So, Dr. Nolan, tell us what, what we know about this strike and what we actually calling it.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Thank you so much to all of you for hearing about the facts. And in a situation like this, facts matter. Some people could easily argue that it's a matter of legalese. And first and foremost, I am not a lawyer. I am a political scientist. But when it comes to the world of international security, those two worlds definitely cross over. So in one of my security studies courses that I teach, I teach a great deal on. On war. What constitutes war, specifically the theory of war. And what's interesting about this situation is the reason why I felt like I had to disrupt my social media vacay is because I kept seeing people refer to this as a war crime. That is a way to describe it. If you're trying to get people to understand the level of severity, is it the right way to describe it? If my students were to answer, if I were to give them this as a case study and say, how would you describe it? And if they said war crime, I would dock them points. And it's a really simple reason why no one has declared war, not even Venezuela. And it's a reason for that, because wars cost money. Maduro understands that he's in a tricky situation. And he also understands what sort of. What sort of administration he's dealing with. So he's in a very tricky situation. So he hasn't declared war. And to my knowledge, sitting here at 2:07pm December 1, the United States has not declared war on Venezuela. So to call this a war crime is to suggest that this is a legal war, that this is a legal war andor conflict, and it is neither.

[Tim]

Yeah. So at. In this. So what, what should we be calling this, in your opinion, from the facts that you've seen so far?

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Well, I agree with ranking member Meeks, you know, on, on the, on the ranking. I, I always. It's the committee on. Oh, my goodness, there's so many committees, and I cannot remember, I can't, I can't recall it right now. But I agree with ranking member Meeks on this. And I'm gonna say something that I never ever thought I would say. I'm gonna agree with who also describes it as an extrajudicial killing. And it's a reason why the lawyers, why the legislators are describing it this way, because here's the situation, guys. Having a legally declared war affords you a few things. So say, for instance, if they were enemy combatants in those ships, that's a different situation. We may not actually even be having this conversation right now because in War, you can legally, unfortunately kill your enemy combatants. Right? But what's the one thing we always hear about when we're talking about legally declared wars and conflicts? We're always hearing about the civilian count. That's why this matters. Right? So when you were just out there killing people without any sort of legal authority, without any sort of declaration of war, that pretty much just becomes murder. Or, you know, in another way to put it, because we are talking about an international situation, extra judicial killing. Now, can, can you have extrajudicial killings ins, while there, there are legally determined wars and conflicts? Yes, but that's not what this is.

[Rich]

I think of it as like, if I'm in a, a boat off the coast of California, whale watching with my friends and, and Australia says, we think that those are what, what's a gang Bloods or Crips or something. Like we think that those are bad. And then they just come and murder me right off the coast of California. And then they say, well, don't worry, they trust us. They were, they were gang members and drug dealers and like, what would, what would a normal president do if we were killed off of our own coast by another government? And without any actual evidence that anybody was anything other than just a random person like these guys were, they might have all been drug dealing, cartel traffickers. We will probably never know because they'll never tell us or because they didn't even do the work to find out who these people actually were. They just made a judgment call.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

And that's actually forget who. I forget if it was a New York Times or Politico. Someone actually did journalism, Someone did journalism, someone did a deep dive.

[Rich]

I've heard of that.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

I can't remember which, who it was, but they actually went to Venezuela, talked to community members, talked to family members to ask who these people were because they're no longer here. And what was interesting in this kind of this, this piece is that it was revealed that you're talking, if they were dealing drugs, you were talking about petty, petty, petty, petty, petty, petty, petty, petty, petty, petty. You know, way down on the drug totem pole. We are not talking about El Chapo's homies running in and out of the South Caribbean. That's not what we're talking about. We not talking about that kind of delivering them personally. I mean, So, you know, this, this isn't the situation that we're talking about. And I think that's important to mention because I think this, this administration does a great job at throwing out some, a tiny bit of Red meat. So you can completely get people distracted from what the point is. And so they can muddy the waters by saying, but they were actual drug.

[Rich]

Dealers, bad guys, the movies.

[Tim]

Right. But I think the point being here, and I think this is what you're saying is that there is no evidence that these guys were any sort of middle to higher level drug traffickers with, you know, hundreds of. Maybe I'm going to, I don't how much this stuff weighs. Kilo, well, kilos, I guess. But, you know, like these boats, you blow them up and there's not this like white powdered cloud because there's so many drugs. It's. There doesn't seem to be very much evidence, at least that's been presented to us, that suggests, like you said, that these were anything other than one fisherman or two very, very low level drug dealers who by quote, unquote, eliminating them or killing them doesn't do anything to stop the flow of drugs into this country.

[Chris]

I think what's important to note is that the Trump administration is conflating a whole bunch of things. They, they like to say that like every boat that they are, are hitting with a missile strike. They're saving 27,000Americans lives. Like, they're, they're acting as if everything on that boat is fentanyl and that, that fentanyl is going to result in an overdose every single time.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

And where is this fentanyl coming from?

[Rich]

Because it's not coming from Venezuela, Mexico.

[Unknown Female Guest]

None of, let's do a video on that.

[Chris]

What's really important to note is none of these boats could physically make it to the United States.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Because they're fishermen.

[Chris]

Exactly.

[Rich]

They're fishermen. They don't have refueling stations like, you know, every fly miles over them.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

This isn't the start of NASCAR on, on in the South Caribbean Sea.

[Tim]

Right.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

You know, like, we're not, we don't, we are not talking about souped up boats here.

[Tim]

So to be clear, one, I mean, @ least correct me if I'm wrong, but I, I think I saw something that said most of the fentanyl comes from Mexico and it comes from the Pacific side through California. Yeah, but, and what we are saying here, just to be clear to everybody, because this kind of blows up their entire narrative. These boats can't make it to the United States. Right. What did I say? Did I say the entire narrative is that bad? Okay. I thought you were saying they always suggest that I say these pseudosexual things. I don't even realize it, that I don't think that Was one of.

[Rich]

Them. Anyways, I was on something about Jeffrey Epstein dripping in one episode. I was like, come.

[Tim]

On, guys, guys, guys. We have a serious guest.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Here. A serious, serious visual of anything dripping out of Jeffrey.

[Rich]

Epstein. I walked. Us.

[Tim]

Too. Look what you did.

[Rich]

Rich. She dragged our corpses across the line. I'm.

[Tim]

Not. Anyways, to go back, their narrative has been blown up because the fact is these. These boats can't even get. What are we, like Miami, like, to South Florida? I guess. So, like, it seems to me, and. And Dr. Nola, correct me if I'm wrong, these are not. These are they. These are not boats that were coming to the United States. So then what are we.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Doing? Exactly. What are we doing? What we are doing is, you know, we're making a mineral resource grab. I mean, it's the same. It's the same sort of tactic with Nigeria, you know, and you send poor Nicki Minaj to the U.

[Rich]

S. I'm sorry, it's.

[Tim]

So.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

It's. See, I told the Lord I was gonna be good.

[Tim]

Today. No, no, no, no, no, no, Dr. Nola, there are no rules here. You can say whatever. Our audience will eat it up because it's at least us not making stupid comments like it's, you know, have at it. Did he really send Nicki MINAJ to the U.N. did that.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Happen? That really.

[Tim]

Happened. Oh, my.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

God. Talk about the Christians dying in Nigeria. Here's the thing. One of my 8,000 degrees you mentioned, Tim. I have a background in divinity, so this is actually an area I care a great deal about. And so I do a lot of work on the intersection, international security and identity and religion being one of those markers. So this is something that I care a great deal about. I think that sending Nicki Minaj to the UN to make the case that Christians are dying in Nigeria, which is why the ua, The US Needs to intervene when Nigeria isn't even the first country on the list where Christians are dying in mass. How about North Korea? I don't. I don't see him telling his little buddy that we coming. Right, Exactly. I don't see you knocking on his door talking about we come in to save Christians, you know, so it's. It's this situation where they literally change the narrative as they are telling the narrative. It's.

[Tim]

Amazing. But it's. It's a but. So from your perspective. And I. I mean, I think I agree these are. These are resource battles. This is nothing to do with stopping drugs coming into the United States. Nor is it, I guess, stopping the Persecution of Christians in Nigeria, of all places, which is a resource rich, but also highly, what's the word I'm looking for? There is a lot of war that goes on and especially I believe in the northern parts of Nigeria, I.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Think, where Boko Haram, where they have.

[Tim]

A lot of terrorist activities and a lot of awful things that happen. But this is like they want the Venezuelan oil and they want the resources under the ground in Nigeria, I.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Assume. Absolutely. And then there's another thing that's also going on here, too. When we're talking about these kind of regional tips, when we're talking about, you know, when, when, when Trump talks about Greenland, when all of this chaos started, one of the questions that people were trying to answer in my world in foreign policy is not only what is our foreign policy going to look like, but what is the stance we're taking? You know, so we heard a lot about isolationism on the campaign trail, but it's actually looked something more like wanting the opposite of everything that they said that they wanted to do. Right. So point number one, getting involved, we'll use Israel, for example, not only going to Israel's defense, that's one part of it, but then Trump trying to put his finger on the scale to tell Israel how they should handle Netanyahu. The, the, the, the, the, the point that we are completely ignoring Venezuela's sovereignty. The point that we are completely egging on Greenland. You know, we, we've heard threats against Mexico. So there's this kind of like regional spheres of influence theory that's been floated out there that Ben Rhodes has talked about. But now it's looking like something else is looking like we want our finger on the scale for the things that Trump cares about, not necessarily what's in the best interest of the United States, because I would argue that we're moving in the opposite interest of the United States. And then secondly, it's this kind of really bullying, bullish foreign policy where the United States knows it's bigger and stronger. And so you're going to try and bully Venezuela, you're going to bully Nigeria. So it's this, I think this administration would probably use the word deterrence. I use the word.

[Tim]

Bullying. So are you suggesting, Dr. Nola, that Trump's no new wars pledge was complete? What he's, he's only ever told the truth until.

[Zach]

Now. He's never said anything that wasn't.

[Tim]

True. He said, he said no new wars, though. We're lighting up fishermen left and right in the.

[Rich]

Caribbean. And, but it's not war. So we're totally.

[Tim]

Great. But I. I guess, like, murder a little casual. Well, did you guys. And we'll have to have the. They'll. I want to get to this. So Pete Hegseth today. Did you guys see the tweet he put out about this? So it's gonna be hard. Yeah. So he posted this. This tweet that was basically the play on. I guess it's Franklin the turtle.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Something. It's like a kid to me because I'm from the ninja warrior generation. So I was really confused and. Can y' all just explain.

[Tim]

It? I. I cannot. But, like, I could show.

[Chris]

You. I think it's a children's.

[Tim]

Book. Yeah, it's a children's.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Book.

[Tim]

Okay. But he. Obviously. They changed it to Franklin Target book. Yeah, it's a children's book. This is a children's book. We'll put it up on the. On the. The edit. We'll put it up. But it says Franklin targets narco terrorists. And then it literally shows him in helmet and with a.

[Rich]

Bazooka.

[Tim]

Jesus. Bazooka. Shooting a boat that looks to be filled with cocaine or fentanyl. And there's pictures of guys on the boats with what looks like automatic rifles kind of getting blown to bits. This was today. After all of the criticism about, like. Like killing these. These fishermen. Why is.

[Unknown Female Guest]

That? Franklin? A turtle. I don't get.

[Zach]

It. It's because it'll make the wokies. It'll trigger the.

[Chris]

Libs.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Yeah. And the fisherman of brown. You got to add that.

[Tim]

Right? Yeah, that is.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

True. That's the.

[Tim]

Point. Very important. Very important.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Wow. But that's what he did to.

[Tim]

Me. It is incoherent. He is.

[Chris]

Incoherent. This is how the alt right communicates. They. They use absurdities in their memes so that we spend our time debating what does this mean? How is it offensive? How many layers of racism is it? And. And that's distracting us from the fact that we should be talking about how Pete Hegseth is going to jail. And, like, there's. There's no getting around it. Donald Trump could issue a pardon. I don't think that. That Pete Hegseth is going to work his way into a pardon for absolutely everything he's.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Done. Well, actually, they actually tagged South Communist. That is.

[Tim]

Disgusting. Can you just explain what that is to folks that. That don't know? Dr. Noah, I'm sorry. No, it's okay. It's. I mean, it's like this stuff, like, takes everyone's breath away for A minute, because it's just like, complete horseshit. What is. What. What was the group that he tagged? Just so people know what that.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Is. So southcom essentially is. It's a. It's a. Southcom denotes region. So it is where that military theater is within the South Caribbean and other parts of the Caribbean Sea. So we're talking about the South Caribbean Sea, which is literally South South.

[Tim]

Command. So he's basically tagging the. The. The account run by people at the Pentagon that is basically meant to talk about the things that we are doing in. In that region, essentially, I.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Guess.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Tim]

Yep. And so he's using this children's meme, which I'm sure some alt right put together, and someone gave it to him and was like, oh, look at this cool thing. But I wanted. I want to transition because one thing that I think is really, really important to talk about is that this does seem, at least right now, to be a rare instance where there is bipartisan anger over this. And I think we saw a statement from the. Both the. The. The chair and the ranking member of the Armed Services Committee in the House issued a joint statement that. That they both. Like, this doesn't really happen anymore.

[Rich]

Because. Sorry.

[Tim]

Yo. Go.

[Rich]

Ahead. Well, no, I think it's really critical to split this in half because there's. There's one issue of. Of killing. Of blowing up boats. We have been trained by action movies, at least since the 80s. Every Rambo movie, you know, that blowing up bad guys with missiles and military leaders who are just like, fuck it, you know, kill the bad guys. I'm too. Like, there are lives at stake, and they go around the rules. We've been trained to kind of look up to that kind of, like, swaggery bravado thing. The critical difference here is those two people that were clinging to wreckage. That is what makes this a markedly different conversation where I think a freakish number of Americans. And I'm looking at you, Zach, if you just said, should the military shoot drug boats out of the ocean without permission from the other governments, a lot of people would say, like, you know, maybe that's not legal, but I don't, like, personally have a problem with it or, like, those guys, they're bad guys or.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Whatever, that they're actual drug dealers, I'm okay with it. If they're regular, innocent fishermen, I'm not okay with.

[Rich]

It. But if you said humans who have already been attacked are clinging to wreckage in the ocean, should you double down and murder them out of the water and not take them as Prisoners and interrogate them. Where did you get your drugs? Like, flip them. Like, do what you would think.

[Zach]

You would want to do that, no.

[Rich]

Matter what, do that part of it. So that's the particularly brutal component here, where this is different from all of the other boat strikes. So I think that zooming in on that, that key point is the. Is the thing that's going to really change people's.

[Tim]

Minds. Right. But that's the reason why there was, I think, this joint.

[Rich]

Statement.

[Tim]

Exactly. Over the weekend. Because, again, Democrats and Republicans agree on essentially nothing at this point. Right. Like even budget bills, we get. That's why we have a shutdown, because they don't agree on anything. But in this particular case, and I want to get. Dr. Noah, your take is like, this feels different than some of the other, you know, questionable slash illegal things that the Trump administration has.

[Chris]

Done. Do.

[Tim]

You. Do you know. You know, I think Chris made a good point that, like, you know, we would like to see if, if convicted, Pete Hegs has spent some time upstate, I guess, or wherever up the river or whatever. But, like, do you think that it's possible that there are enough Republicans that are outraged about this that, like, real hearings, real investigations will.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Happen? Absolutely. Because, you know, the. The calls aren't just coming from inside the House. Right. And they're not just coming from Americans who are already pissed off about the 800 different things we have to be pissed off about every single day. Right. This is coming from the UN this is coming from presidents from around the world. You know, presidents, leaders, whatever sort of regime type they have. So this, it's not. If it has the potential to be, you know, career ending for Hexeth, where, you know, his freedom can be taken away. Absolutely. Because someone mentioned it earlier. I can't remember if it was you, Tim or Rich had mentioned the way that this administration moves. They came. Came in thinking that they were omnipotent. They came in thinking that Trump was a king. They came in thinking that they could do whatever the hell it was that.

[Tim]

They.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

That. That they wanted to do. And who was going to question. Who was going to question them. You know, there's a famous moment in Real Housewives history where Cherise says, who gonna check me, boo? And that's basically with this administration came in with that attitude like, who gonna check me, boo? Well, on this one, the whole world, the whole damn world is gonna check you on this one. And then especially when you have situations where you bring in, I remember ranking member Meeks was talking about, I think on threads one day how finally they had been briefed on the situation and there was no details in the brief. What are you hiding? What are you hiding? You're hiding the fact that there is no real evidence. Now, what is interesting is that situation that happened maybe a few weeks ago with Great Britain and stopping intelligence sharing with the United States in that area specifically because there is still a question of where are they? Where's the United States getting their intel from? You know, so there are a lot of questions to unpack here. And I have one more question. Whatever happened to that one person that survived a strike? Do y' all remember that there was one person that survived a strike? That person just completely went away. Every now and then, I will remind people on threads what happened to that person. I. E.

[Chris]

Witness. Yeah. So I think that there's likely going to be some whistleblowers coming forward to talk about that. I mean, I. I mean, is it. I could say that's going to.

[Tim]

Happen. I mean, isn't that how we know about the kill them all thing? Isn't. Was that somebody speaking off the record? Is that how we found that out? Yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah. It's.

[Tim]

Whistle. I mean, there's a lot of cya. Right. Like, people. I mean. Yeah, I mean, yeah, there were.

[Chris]

Actually two survivors in a strike, I believe it was September 18th, who both got repatriated. And that. That was a. That was a messy strike, too. And there will be whistleblowers coming forward to. To talk about that. And I. That's why I'm very, very convinced that Pete Hegseth is going to.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Jail. And let me tell you something. You know, I've been saying this for years as a national security person. What has happened to the national security community? Let me be gentle here. There are a lot of aggrieved people. There are a lot of professional people who have dedicated their lives to making sure that not only that Americans are safe. And I know sometimes that can be a throwaway, you know, kind of idea, but there really are people who are dedicated to keeping Americans safe abroad and around the world. And when you have an administration that does not respect the duty of the military, that does not respect the duty of rank, that does not respect tradition, that does not respect duty in and of itself, I'd argue, because the military right now, in many instances are being used, you know, in. In ways that people don't get. People don't sign up to get used for. You know, you talk to any vet, obviously they will have stories about maybe something you. That. That they did that. They didn't love that they had to do it, but they did it because they believed in a mission. We are having a situation where morale is low. People are not understanding what the mission is, and that's.

[Tim]

Dangerous. So. And we got. I'll do one more question, and then we'll. We'll wrap here. But, so where do you see all of this going next? Like, what. What do we think is going to happen both with Venezuela, where last night, which we're recording on Monday, Trump said without any sort of power, that there's. That their airspace in Venezuela is closed, which it's not, but probably not a lot. I don't. So where. Where does. Where do you see the end game on.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

This? Where do I see the end game? Well, the end game is going to be messy and chaotic. I mean, you know, they do a thing and they never have a plan for. They just go out there and do it. They break stuff. They kind of don't care. And then they go back and they go out into the world and break more stuff because there. There are no real consequences. How this ends depends on the consequences here. This is the stop, right? In my personal opinion, because after all of this, there's going to be a lot of cleanup that people like me are going to have to go out into the world and do. Right? This is the stop. This is the moment where Republicans are going to have to dig deep and ask themselves what matters most. Are you okay backing an administration that is just going out and killing people without any authority? Congress is the only body that can declare war. There's no declaration of war. So what are we doing? Do you want to back murder? That literally is your legacy. That's literally what Republicans have to ask themselves at this point. Do you want to back murder? Period? Right? So where I see all this ending is I think a few people probably will get shuffled out. What happens to Donald Trump? I don't know if age or senility. Senility or something like that is going to catch up with him, and he just kind of gets trotted off to somewhere, you know, where he can live out the rest of his days. But some of the things that I'm hearing here in D.C. people understand that this is an administration problem. This isn't just a Trump problem. And people are trying to figure out how to fix the Cabinet problem of this administration. And I know that there are some legal, some pretty extremely, you know, legal ways to do that. But I think once Dems get back in office, I know for. For a fact that impeachments will happen all over the place, but I don't know what happens to Trump. I've been thinking a lot about that. Does a Gavin Newsom come in and pardon him? Does Trump even make it all the way to 28?

[Tim]

Right. Yeah, I think it's a great question. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a great question. I mean, he got enraged last week when there was an article about him dialing back, basically doing what Joe Biden did, which was a very short schedule. Every day. There was videos of him nodding off. He would sit at his desk rather than standing, and he was very outraged. But I think it's a fair question. I think we have talked about, like, I don't think any of us would support anybody who, who would come in and pardon Donald Trump, regardless of how.

[Zach]

Old. Not a fucking.

[Tim]

Chance. I. I won't. I don't. Maybe I don't speak for everybody here, but I. I think that it is important that whoever is the Democratic standard bearer in 28 is all about investigations and getting to the bottom of this, because we have always turned the other page or the other shoulder, whatever the hell the term is. The other cheek. Thank you, Rich. And I like, that. Can't happen this time. Like, there's too.

[Rich]

Much. After this period of divisiveness. We are going to need a time for healing.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Tim.

[Tim]

Yep. Oh, Jesus.

[Rich]

Christ. Don't start with me. Nope.

[Tim]

Nope. You started to say something that I agreed with. Not that kind of.

[Rich]

Healing. Forgive and forget. You know, we're all Americans here. No, I. I would actually love to see him go the opposite direction. Because Trump, remember, he wanted to bring back Alcatraz. How amazing would it be if Gavin Newsom brought back Alcatraz for one person and he had to sit there and look at San Francisco through bars for the rest of his life and just think of all of the trans people eating kale doing weird stuff that they do in San.

[Tim]

Francisco. Like.

[Rich]

That'S. That is, well, hell for Donald.

[Tim]

Trump. Sean Connery is no longer around to break anybody out of all.

[Rich]

Alcatraz. So the pieces are all coming.

[Tim]

Together. I'm so glad I worked in a Rock.

[Rich]

Mention. This is the, like, the Rock 3 or whatever. Like, this is the next movie in the. In the.

[Tim]

Trilogy. Well, anyways, I think we can end it there. I will say that I am super proud of us that we got somebody with a degree from Harvard Divinity talking about both the Housewives and Jeffrey Epstein. So I feel we did a great job today. So, Dr. Nolan, thank you Very much. You are on all social platforms, threads. You have a sub stack which people should go check out. What is it called? Remind me.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Again. It is called security brief, and it's about all things security.

[Tim]

Related. Yes. So everybody go check that out and subscribe. But, Dr. Nola, thank you very much. I think this has been more entertaining than we expected when talking about extrajudicial killings. So thank you very much. We will have you back soon. Thank.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

You. I have one of the most popular classes in Georgetown because clearly talk about war and scary.

[Chris]

Stuff. And I've been sitting here thinking that, Dr. Nolan, you make me want to go back to.

[Rich]

School. I'm like, wow, look at.

[Chris]

That. Yeah.

[Tim]

I. Look at.

[Chris]

That. I don't. I don't have my master's yet, so could.

[Tim]

Happen. There you.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Go. You have no idea how emotional that just made me, because that really is my ministry. Like, you have no idea. Like. But I've had a great time hanging out with y'. All. Y' all have me back because, you know they're gonna continue to try to keep blowing up the world.

[Chris]

So. Oh, yeah. Well.

[Tim]

We. We now. We now know, like, who's the. The person that we call when people get blown up. That's Dr. Nola. All right, well, thank you very much, everybody. Go check out her stuff online, and we're take a short break. We'll come back and talk a little bit more. So thanks a lot. All right, we are back. Nola might be my new favorite.

[Chris]

Guest. Guys, I feel like that transition deserved a. Hey, everybody. Even though it's halfway through, I just feel like we should have gotten another.

[Tim]

One. Hey.

[Rich]

Everybody. We're back.

[Chris]

Everybody. I feel so much.

[Tim]

Better. Okay, now we can officially dive in. So obviously, we have talked about how bad it is to do extrajudicial killings and that I think most of us are disagree with that. You know, I don't know how much more we need to, like, dive into the pieces of this, but I. I do think. I think this is a. A completely different item and is a potential momentum. Not momentum, because Democrats have had it, but, like, this is one of those where it feels like the cracks might start, which we've been kind of hoping that that would happen. Oh, yeah, yeah. Chris, you go first. Like, is this starting to put a wedge in the MAGA.

[Chris]

World? Pete Hegseth is going to be disposed of. We have seen what happens when someone gets to be politically liability or if their name is in the press more than Donald Trump, which he also cares about, too. And Pete, hegseth has had both of that. He's been dominating headlines and it has all been bad. And he's got, you know, people like Senator Rand Paul coming out and saying that, like, you need to fucking get rid of this guy. So I think that Pete Hegseth is operating on borrowed time and that he'll be really fucking lucky if he gets a pardon. But I don't think that Donald Trump is going to give him a pardon until it's absolutely fucking.

[Tim]

Necessary. Yeah, I think that's probably right. I mean, he has been pardoning a lot of terrible people lately. And one of the ones we haven't even talked about yet, which flies directly in the face of this, we must stop all drugs coming into the United States. He just pardoned the former Honduran president who was spending 45 years in a United States federal prison for smuggling cocaine. And he just pardoned him because he is part of the right wing party in Honduras. There are elections coming up and that's the candidate he wanted. And he said, even admitted he's like, many fine people told me that this guy was screwed. And it's like screwed by a United States jury and a United States judge. Like you're basically saying cocaine. You believe the Hondurans over the Americans who just like the whole process of democracy basically working to put a powerful person away. And it's all just because it's the party that he.

[Rich]

Supports. Well, also might be because he.

[Chris]

Supports or is it a pay to play scenario? Because it's pay to play with a.

[Rich]

Lot. Everything.

[Tim]

Else. Well, probably both.

[Chris]

Right. Others. So I mean, cocaine money probably didn't get all.

[Tim]

Seized. I don't know. It's so hard to keep track of these things. He also apparently pardoned some other horrible person recently. Other day I saw like, I.

[Rich]

Don'T know, I mean like we're like 2000 in by now. I mean, I stopped keeping track out of sanity. Like, yeah, obviously he pardoned that person. I don't even, I don't know who they are or what they did.

[Tim]

But obviously I literally, I said something about the Honduran thing, the pardon, and someone was like, yeah, well that serves you right. Biden. Biden pardoned his son. So it's the same. I'm like, no, not the same. This is why you don't have conversations with maga because there is no reasoning with them. Like that.

[Zach]

Is. Speaking of.

[Chris]

Which.

[Zach]

Yeah. Did anybody have any MAGA family at.

[Tim]

Thanksgiving?

[Unknown Female Guest]

No.

[Tim]

No. Did.

[Zach]

You? The only ones that were. Yeah, the only ones that I have that Were there. Were bone fucking silent, of course. And I, I didn't even bother. Wait, I didn't even bother ruining.

[Tim]

Thanksgiving. I mean, his approval ratings are what, 36%?

[Unknown Female Guest]

Yeah. It's.

[Tim]

Atrocious. Like, literally, basically the.

[Rich]

Floor. Yeah, yeah. As a form, I think just like three days ago. And Gallup came out with the latest one. It's the lowest of his second.

[Tim]

Term. Yeah. Well, this is a good transition then into a conversation that we wanted to have about the, the Tennessee 5th special election that when you're listening to this, it will be Tuesday, election day. Go vote and go.

[Rich]

Vote. 7th.

[Tim]

District. Oh, 7th. Sorry, I haven't spent a lot of time in.

[Chris]

Tennessee. Don't vote in the wrong.

[Tim]

District. No. Yeah. And also what's interesting, there have been reports that some groups have been putting out that the election is on Wednesday, and it's from Republican groups because they don't want people to vote, which is always something they do. But Afton Bain is a Tennessee state legislator, and there was actually a poll that came out this weekend that showed her down two points. This is a Republican plus 22. This is not a purple district as we were talking about before. This is a red, a ruby red district. So there is a possibility here the Democrats could actually pick this up, which just shows how unpopular Donald Trump is right now and how much there is a potential wave forming for November of next year. You know, I don't know if you guys have paid any attention to this race, but she's done a great job. There's. Kamala Harris was on the ground. A lot of groups on the ground. She's got a shot. And if we had a shot at a plus 22, like, there's not.

[Rich]

A lot of districts that are more red than that. Right. A handful that are maybe 30 and 40, but in a good year for, for Republicans. So, you know, if it's a 20 plus point swing, 100. Agree. Like, we need to maintain the framing, maintain the perspective of what's happening here, because if, if, if she loses by two points or three points, that's a, that's a 20 point win for the left. Where even like a month ago, I remember people saying, like, is there a chance Democrats could flip this special election in Tennessee? Like, this was off of the radar three months ago. Even the worst of the summer, the worst of Doge. Nobody's looking at the Tennessee 7th district and thinking there's a, there's a flip opportunity. If we flip this and then you talk about Marjorie Taylor Greene leaving in January, there's like actually a scenario here where Mike Johnson loses his majority before we start voting in the midterms. It's getting like their majority is that slim. That's what's on the line here. So it's exciting to see people have a chance to maybe flip and get a good representative in this district. But like, let's also keep that higher level perspective of what this is going to mean more.

[Chris]

Broadly. Do we think that Mike Johnson is relieved? I, I feel like he hates his job. I mean, feel like he wants to.

[Rich]

Quit. He's got that smile on his face all the time that looks like he's just this, the pursed lips just on.

[Tim]

Fumes. I mean, just, just the things he has to. I mean, he's basically tossed all of his evangelical beliefs, which most of them are kind of bullshit anyways, in the trash to defend him. Like, it's just on the Epstein stuff in particular where he's had to go full bore for Trump. I, he was also like the 8th choice, don't forget when they, when they came up with this, he was basically the like, well, we got to pick somebody. Well, there's Mike over.

[Rich]

There. He's been off before they got.

[Tim]

Married. Well, you know, there's, there's a lot that could be said there that I'm not going to do right now. But I think, Rich, you made a very important point that, you know, even if Afton loses this race tomorrow, if it's a single digit loss, that means then that anywhere from a plus 12 to plus 15 to plus 18, those Republicans have to be worried because this is a plus 22. This is a really hard mountain. Like if she wins this, that is an earthquake. But if she even loses by like less than five, that's also an earthquake. And I want to make sure that people understand that because a lot of times people have the, the Tennessee and I was on a call earlier where this came up. Like, we don't want people to feel left let down if she loses because there are, there are wins in losses as long as you like, you know, talk about it the right way. And again, if she, even if she loses by five, that's a shocking, shocking.

[Rich]

Result. It's like Rand Paul going and winning Nancy Pelosi's district. Yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah. This is the whole idea behind like my whole on offense branch. Right. We have to put Republicans on the defensive and that means defending plus 22 districts. Right? It is. We can't simply just focus on the safe races. We can't simply focus on, you know, the purple Districts and all that. We have to play the game absolutely everywhere and we have to make it as resource intensive for the other side as we possibly can. And when it comes to, you know, all of us like posting shit on social media and getting out that this race is happening and others like it, this stuff does matter. Might, might feel small in the moment, but it does make a.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Difference. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think the one thing we also need to accept here is that which is great for us is that Trump is not going to reverse course on any of this stuff because of these results. He's not changed. And that's where I think like even going back to our previous conversation briefly is like, I don't think Hegseth is going anywhere either because look at the difference in turnover from his first term and all these cabinet positions and now 100% difference. They went from the most turnover to pretty much the least overnight. Because he's pretty much walking in going, this is my way, I'm doing it my way. I don't give a shit what you think. I'm gonna let Hegseth blow the people up in there. I'm gonna lose all these races because I'm sticking wet with my fucking guns. That's what Trump is doing. Cuz he has nothing to lose personally. That's the reason why he's doing it. He has one term left, he's fucking using it. So all this like all the metrics of how Republicans are gonna adjust their structure because they don't have a leader that's looking out for their best interest. They just have a leader who's looking out for his best interest and they're not gonna be able to do anything until they pivot around that. And I think an election like this is a great eye opening moment for them when even if she's close or wins or whatever, when Trump does nothing in response to it, it's gonna be even more evidence that they have to as a party start to figure out, okay, well what are we gonna do long term? Cuz this guy a, he's gonna be dead in the next few years, it's not gonna matter. But he's the President and he's not listening to what we need and we're going to be alive in 20 years and trying to be in politics. It's just not going to happen for us. So all the metrics are different because Trump does not give a fuck. Trump is doing it for Trump. That's.

[Rich]

It. Yeah, it's going to keep getting.

[Chris]

Worse.

[Rich]

Yep. You know we, we're talking about like cracks in the MAGA coalition. I think I read like three different articles this weekend that were all different sources, like Washington Post, Politico, they all had articles about how the MAGA coalition is cracking in like six different places. Right. You've got the the. The. The Nick Fuentes versus the Ben Shapiro's. Like, you've got the the. The. You got the the. I'm trying to think of the nicest way to say this. You got the Israel split. Right? People can't decide who they're going to let in. All the creators are going in different directions. You know, Marjorie Taylor Greene is just like it. The, the signs are all there that there this is going to be a deeply fractured and mostly leaderless movement. Just like the Tea Party was. Remember, like there were like 20 people who were like the self appointed Tea Party leader. And lo and behold, Tea Party. The Tea Party didn't fucking do anything or go anywhere because it was leaderless. And so. But now it's like 10 times deeper because they're just saying like, I am racist. They're saying I am a Nazi. Like they're, they're saying all of the things out loud that they didn't say 15 years ago. And that's going to make it that much harder to come back. Even though Trump is giving them off ramp after off ramp after off ramp with all of these things that he is doing. And I agree, Zach, doubling down and tripling down. He's going to keep.

[Chris]

Committing. Oh.

[Rich]

Yeah. To, to his own brand because he has always been me first. But now me first doesn't include all of the people who needed to ride on his coattails because he doesn't need them.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Anymore. Right.

[Chris]

Right. Did you guys see that Trump wants to rename the Republican.

[Tim]

Party? Yeah, I did see.

[Chris]

That. It's, it's a story that looks like it should be out of the Onion, but it's not like Donald Trump is talking about. And he's serious. He wants to rename the Republican Party the.

[Tim]

Trumplicans. Oh, I did see.

[Rich]

That. Did he.

[Chris]

Really? T Publicans. And, and the T. I don't know, two different spellings of the Tea Publicans. Which I, I love this story because the more we talk about it, the more Republicans are gonna say, no, he's not serious. And the more that Donald Trump will want to double.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Down.

[Chris]

Down.

[Zach]

Right. Yes, Yes, I am.

[Chris]

Serious. Hilarious.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Fight.

[Tim]

Yeah. Oh, I love.

[Rich]

It.

[Tim]

Public. Well, it's also. But it also just shows like he's not, he doesn't Give a. About the Republicans. He's, he's only ever did. No, he's never, he's, he's, I mean he's become a Republican, don't get me wrong. But like he never was one. You know, he's friends of the Clintons and like he gave Hillary all kinds of money back in the.

[Rich]

Day. Like he gave Bubba.

[Zach]

Something. Well, oh.

[Tim]

Yeah. But, but you know, he found the Republicans were his, were his vehicle to power and to more money and so like him fucking with their name. Like, like it's just a vehicle. No, it's.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Power. He could just set the vehicle.

[Tim]

On fire and he, the thing he cares about most is showing that he's in control. Right. So he's going to embarrass these people and I guarantee you that he's, it's going to get worse as we get closer. Like, can you imagine when like there are Republicans running for president next year and he has to deal with like them getting the spotlight and no one's paying attention to him.

[Zach]

Anymore? Well, this is going to lose his fucking.

[Chris]

Shit. This is in the context of him teasing a third.

[Tim]

Term.

[Chris]

Yeah. So he might just be nuking everyone who pop. Every Republican who pops their head up. And remember when, when he was running for reelection the first time the, the RNC had a whole convention and they decided that they no longer have a party platform. Yeah. That's going to happen again. Like they've already got Project 2025. Donald Trump doesn't want to, to be committed to anything. So the one thing that would come out of the next RNC is him renaming the Republican Party after himself right before absolutely fucking demolished. I love.

[Tim]

This. I think the way, the way this is looking right now and there's a lot that can happen but like they are, they are marching towards a very bad place. And I will say, like you look and I think the way of framing it is right about Fuentes versus Shapiro. Fuentes is.

[Rich]

Winning. Oh.

[Tim]

Yeah. Like they are going to a very. And by the way, Nick Fuentes is a neo Nazi. Like there is no mistaking it. He is a neo Nazi and he is seeing the crack that he is going to try to drive right through and make this party an alt, a true alt right party. And if you think that Donald Trump is bad, wait until this guy gets a hold of the party he is. I mean, Chris, you're the expert here, so you I shouldn't be talking about, but Trump is the gateway to a very, very bad, bad.

[Rich]

Place. Oh.

[Chris]

Yeah. I mean the House and Senate is filled with gripers right now. Four, four years ago, five years ago when I was first writing threat reports for, you know, members of Congress, like in the context of the ongoing January six committee. At the time I was writing about how gripers were in Paul Gosar's office and that there were new groipers popping up and gripers are these neo Nazi followers of, of Nick Fuentes, how they were popping up in other offices. Now if, if you go to, to Washington D.C. and you sit down with an intern in a Republican office, that person's probably a groiper. They. Because no one else wants to actually get into Republican politics. Normal young men and it is almost entirely young men who are Republican. They don't want to get involved. It's only these like really hate filled incel types. That is what Washington D.C. is flush with right.

[Rich]

Now. Are you, are you saying that that intern or whoever that was that had the American flag with the swastika. Swastika drawn into the.

[Tim]

Str.

[Rich]

Right. So you're saying that that person is not the right person for us, for, for America. Like they're. This is a.

[Tim]

Controversial. Well, well, Rich, Rich, hold on a second. That. That image was very hard to see when he's in there. It was very like.

[Chris]

Blurry.

[Tim]

Possible. Which was their actual answer to why there was an American flag with a Nazi symbol in the middle of it. Oh well, like yeah, the photo like highlighted it. We couldn't tell. There's a lot of these out.

[Rich]

There. Now you can.

[Tim]

Tell. A little bit too much of a coincidence when it happens 35 times.

[Rich]

And there's no like process of introspection. Right. Of like hey, so now that we know that there is a person with a swastika flag on their work computer in, in the capital, we're. We're gonna do some deep dives. We're gonna have some, you know, some sessions to talk about how we get Nazis out of the party. Like they're, they don't go there. They just say, oh, it's hard to see. It's like the WhatsApp thread, you know. Oh, they're a bunch of kids. We don't want them to ruin their, their futures. Right. 38 year old kids.

[Tim]

Children. Yeah. Yeah. Well, but they have learned that and I, you know, I hate to be the person that's always like the media but like they don't get challenged on it. Like it's a one day story and it's gone. No one is holding them accountable. They know that they have won that battle with the media. They have pushed it so far to the right in order for the media to say they aren't biased, but they keep moving it so that everything keeps getting shifted. And, like, then a Democrat says something that's completely normal. They're like, whoa, that doesn't. Like, that doesn't jive. Wait, you want to have health care for everybody? That's dangerous. Like, it's just like, so, like, they don't have to because nobody holds them.

[Chris]

Accountable. Yeah. I mean, look at Reince Priebus and Paul Ryan. Like, they've just disappeared into, you know, who. Who are they fucking consulting land. Like, they're making a ton of fucking money because they don't have to live with the shame of building a party that was taken over by fucking Nazis in less.

[Tim]

Than. Paul Ryan is on the board of Fox. And so. And he sits there and he always is like, oh, well, this is not who we are, and blah, blah, blah, blah. Meanwhile, like, part of his compensation is coming from Sean Hannity and Jesse Waters and, like, all these garbage human beings, and they just rake in the cash because they don't actually.

[Rich]

Care. How do we get onto this? When we were starting, we started talking about Shapiro and Fuentes. Like, we. I think I feel like we Tangented for, like, 20 minutes there, which is.

[Dr. Nola Hayes]

Always. We.

[Rich]

Did. It's. Making fun of young Republicans is like a national pastime in my social.

[Tim]

Circle. Shooting fish in the.

[Rich]

Barrel. Right, right. Fishing for fish in a barrel. But how did we get.

[Tim]

On? Maybe, just maybe, this is. This is the.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Wrap.

[Tim]

Right? I think this is the.

[Rich]

Rap. But some listeners gonna be like, you were saying the thing and you guys never picked it.

[Tim]

Back. Well, you know what's gonna happen? We're gonna hit stop, and then we'll.

[Rich]

Remember. Immediately.

[Tim]

Remember. But I have great stuff to talk about to wrap this show.

[Rich]

Up. Is it.

[Tim]

Merch? Oh, in a minute, in a minute. But so today is. Is Cyber Monday. And so for this week, we are offering our memberships on substack for 20 off. So now for less than $5 a month, you can help support our work in one. Keeping the lights on and developing new shows, which we will be talking about somewhat soon, and we will run this through the rest of the week. So if you want to go to findoutpodcast.substack.com and become a member for $4.80 per month, you could do that right now, and we would greatly appreciate it. You can also buy.

[Zach]

Merch. She just did the Gavin.

[Tim]

Newsom. I.

[Rich]

Did. Yeah, we didn't find it.

[Tim]

Right. I know we should have coordinated this before. Our merch is so wonderful. Union made and printed. Made in America. Super comfy hoodies. The hoodies are great. Super comfortable. The shirts also great. Black, white, you know, all kinds of.

[Rich]

Options. People can use their 20% savings on substack and get themselves a hoodie. I think the math checks.

[Tim]

Out. Yes, definitely. Our dollar and 20 cent hoodies that are sending us into bankruptcy. You. But you could say use that money if you're budgeting that way to buy a find out hoodie@findout podcast.com and I think with that, I think that's all we've got. Guys. I. I don't have a great. Unless Luke's got to get fucked on the.

[Zach]

Spot. Not off the top of my.

[Rich]

Head. I mean. Pete.

[Tim]

Hegseth. Pete Hegset. We already kind of. That was a. That was.

[Zach]

Actually. Wait, I do have.

[Tim]

One.

[Zach]

Yes. You guys see this story about the. The student at the University of Oklahoma who's losing their. About their grade on that.

[Tim]

Essay? Oh, I did tell the. Tell the audience what this.

[Zach]

Is. So they're framing it as I use the Bible in my essay. I got failed for it. Not the case. You were supposed to write an academic essay with citations that appealed to reality. You didn't do.

[Unknown Female Guest]

That. You.

[Zach]

Did. I.

[Tim]

Think. I.

[Zach]

Feel. And by the way, it came from the Bible. That's not a fucking citation. Get for making this about the fact that the teacher's trans or something. God damn you ignorant fucks. You didn't write an essay that you were supposed.

[Tim]

To.

[Rich]

Yep. I think that's a better essay already. I need to go read the actual.

[Tim]

Essay. But I like Fucking.

[Zach]

Atrocious. An eighth grader could write that.

[Tim]

Essay. Are you saying that the Bible should not be used as a historical fact like.

[Zach]

Citation? You mean that. You mean the document that's passed through the hands of approximately a billion powerful white men who wanted to use it to control how things were made? How things were done in their time isn't reliable.

[Rich]

Shocker. I still read mine every day. So I don't know what we're even doing.

[Tim]

Here. I sleep with it under my pillow. Gives.

[Zach]

Me. Oh.

[Rich]

Yeah. It tells me I'm big and strong and brave and that I should be in charge. Why wouldn't I read it? I mean, come.

[Tim]

On. I don't know if America's ready for our conversation on religion. But we will. We will hold that for another day, everybody. Thank you for watching and or listening wherever you do. Thank you to Dr. Nola for joining us today. And we will be back on Thursday and we'll have news about Afton Band, what it means. Okay. And I'm sure a bunch of other crazy shit will happen along the way, so thank you. We'll be back on Thursday. Bye, guys.