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- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome.
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B
You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up, required compatibility and availability. Veris 18 foreign. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Find out podcast. You got a full crew again here today. It's Tim, Rich, Zach and Luke. And today we are doing something that we have never done in our over 100 episodes. We are talking with somebody who was a MAGA influencer slash creator that you may have seen on your tick tocks, but he's actually left the MAGA movement. He's not moving our way, but he's actually moving in a slightly different way. But we want to talk about the split because I think a lot of us on this side don't fully understand it. And he agreed to come on, which is very gracious because there's four guys that don't really get it. And so we're gonna go through it. We're gonna, we're not gonna yell and scream. We're not gonna do any of that. We want to have a conversation. So today we have never woke with us. So. Never woke. I never thought I would say this, but it's nice, it's nice to see you.
- [01:24]
C
Good seeing you guys. Thank you for having me.
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B
Sure. So some of some people have probably seen you online. You used to have the red Make America great again hat. Now you have the proud American hat. Walk us through your I'm going to call it a divorce with Donald Trump and maga.
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A
What good words.
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B
Because you were all in. Right? And then, and then there was a split. So I want to talk about that. So how did that come about?
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C
Well, hey guys, I appreciate you letting me on the, on the podcast. Not sure if you are about to get canceled for having me here. Not sure if the left is about that now, but. But I'm no longer walking around Disney World with my MAGA hat. A lot of people are like messaging me like, hey, what happened to the 180? The 180 didn't happen for me. It happened from Donald Trump. Like any common sense voter that voted for Donald Trump thought he was different. Clearly he's not. The Republican Party is going to do what the Republican Party does best, is freaking over, promise under deliver and get us into foreign war. So for me, I've always had disagreements with Donald Trump. No, no. President's perfect. I think you guys know that, too. You know, on the left, you are dealing with your own issues. Over there, y', all, y' all have some sort of kind of civil war. Maybe not as extreme as the Republicans are right now, but, man, like, you know, at the end of the day, like, I just wanted Donald Trump to focus on America. Like, let's focus on America. America first. Not Venezuel Whaler first, not Cuba next, not Iran ongoing. And for me, you know, I've had disagreements. I've celebrated him when he done stuff that's good. I've voiced my opinion on things that I think I needed to voice my opinion on, on things that I disagree with. But then there's non negotiables, obviously. A year ago, there was the Epstein Transparency act, which is the biggest scandal since, you know, America has been created. And anyone that has wore a MAGA hat should be embarrassed, as I have been. However, I believe if you just go after Bill Clinton or Bill Gates or whoever, it, the judicial process is going to expose all the other people. So I thought it was just going to play into. You're going to throw one person under the bus, which is going to eventually expose everyone else. That never even happened. It's like, what are we freaking doing? Are we not. Are we just going to, like, you know, push out all the people who signed the discharge petition, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and we're going to push out Massey. Are we going to push out all these people, Lauren Boebert, and then just act like this is still a Democrat hoax, like that's, that's the scandal. And then now it's the Iran thing. It's the Tomahawk missile that is coming from the sky. That is, that is killing innocent kids. And, and then it's like, we're going to endorse Lindsey Graham. Like, I'm just done with it. And it's not just like, I'm done with maga. I'm actively against MAGA because we have no checks and balances. Thomas Massie, who's the guy that I probably support the most, Marjorie Taylor Greene as well. Like, they're getting pushed out. And then like, all the MAGA supporters are like, freaking making fun of me and trolling me. I'm like, okay, like, I thought we're on a team. Clearly not. So screw you. I'm going to burn this mother effort down. If I have to work with the Democrats, I will work with The Democrats. Because the truth is, it's not right and left anymore. It's freaking the elitist versus, like, the peasants. And unfortunately, I'm now in the category of the peasants. They're trying to throw me under the bus, and they're wanting to freaking manipulate me and gaslight me. And I'm not. I'm not going to do it anymore. So now we're here.
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B
So that's. So it's interesting. First of all, no disagreements yet. So here we go.
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D
We're doing all right.
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B
We're four minutes in. I think what you're doing now is, I think, what a lot of us thought would happen years ago. Yeah. Because I think some of. I live in New York, so, like, I have known of Donald Trump for a really long time, and I think, you know, we all knew, like, I mean, he was a Democrat, that he was a Republican, he was a TV guy, blah, blah, blah. Were you a. Were you a Trump. Were you a Trump guy in 2016 as well?
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C
Yeah, I voted for Trump three times. Never voted. I grew up. I grew up a Democrat. I mean, my parents were Democrats. And then I got real big in a church. And during the time I got big in a church, I knew the Republican Party. This is around Bush. I knew the Republican Party was corrupt, so I was never a Democrat or Republican. But Trump seemed like he was different, as they all do, you know?
- [05:39]
B
Yeah.
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C
And then they stab you in the back, and now we're screaming in our car like Luke does on a daily basis.
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D
Goddamn right.
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A
What?
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B
You did some. You did some research. That's good. Go ahead, Rich.
- [05:49]
E
What, I'm curious, what made you stick with him after Covid, after January 6th, like, how did he keep you? And then what's. What's. Because we talked about specifically what's. What's changed over the past, you know, six to 12 months. But why did he still have you in his camp?
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C
Up.
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E
Up until a year ago?
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C
I think I have fell for. What most people on the right have fallen for is Donald Trump today and Donald Trump in 2020 and Donald Trump, whatever, is still the Donald Trump in 2016. That was like, let's lock up all these corrupt politicians. Like, let's not take foreign lobbyist money. And then it's like, once we vote them in, we go on to our life. Like, I'm a business owner, guys. Like, I hate to be this way, but, like, I know. I know what happened was January 6th, and I know what's going on obviously now. But, like, from 2024 to 2016. It was just a blur.
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E
All of it was a blur.
- [06:51]
C
We had Black Lives Matter. It's like, oh, I would only get kind of glimps. I've never kind of like, dig into the details until this election cycle where I knew the past, you know, two years, I have been duped. He is not the 2016 president that, you know, was saying, you know, let's. Let's forget foreign lobbyists. Like, I don't need your money. He sold us out to Israel. He sold us out to the Israeli lobby. And it's so obvious. But unfortunately, I held on to this lie as most people on the right have held on, that he's the same guy. And clearly he's not. He's just a liar.
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A
So why do you so many people are still hanging on with it? Because, like, I. I mean, your logic is completely correct. Like, I think, you know, all of us aren't going to disagree with it, but I think a lot of people in the middle and on the right wouldn't disagree with the. You're saying either. How does he keep these people from doing what you're doing so effectively?
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C
For Republicans, it's like, well, what's the alternative? Kamala Harris? What's the alternative? Joe Biden. And they think that, like, a lot of them are finally realizing, okay, Donald Trump's bad, but, like, we're slightly better than the Democrats. And my argument now is like, why do we have to settle for that in the Republican Party? I'm not voting for J.D. vance or Marco Rubio. They're going to be slightly better than the Democrats. And you're not going to trick me into, like, voting for these guys who are going to sell us out into foreign lobbyists and all these wars when the argument now is just, like, you're going to over promise, under deliver, and, like, okay, well, at least they're slightly better than the Democrats.
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A
You said that three times. What does that mean?
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D
Yeah, I was going to ask what is slightly better than them?
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C
Look, like, okay, so, like, your audience will disagree with the people that follow me, but the people that follow me don't like the trans stuff. The people that don't follow, like, that follow me. They don't like, you know, Joe Biden on a vacation, allegedly for most of his presidency, and then, like, y' all threw in Kamala, like, your audience, like, like, strongly disagrees with the ICE stuff. Well, my audience doesn't. Right. So, like, there's just fundamental disagreements. So, like, when it comes to, like, the Republic. Go ahead.
- [09:02]
B
No, no, no, no. Keep going, Keep going.
- [09:03]
C
Well, I'm just saying, like, when it comes to, like, the things that I value versus the things that the Democrats value, okay, like, Donald Trump's like one of the most corrupt politicians in American history, but at least we're slightly better than the Democrats because the things that we value aren't the things that y' all value and vice versa.
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B
So let me ask, this is where I want to ask. I'm really curious because say you just talked about the vacation thing, for example, right? You talked about Joe Biden taking more vacations. So that's false, right? Like, that's just.
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C
I'm sure it is Donald Trump.
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D
Right?
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B
Right.
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D
No, but, but your audience values it, is what you're saying.
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B
I'm not, I'm not saying it to. Right. I'm not saying it to, to say you're wrong because it's going to lead to my next question. But, like, Donald Trump has taken the most vacation days of any president in history. And on top of that, he also charges the Secret Service when they use the golf carts and they stay at his place.
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E
But he works harder when he's working. He works but ten times harder, right?
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B
He walks over his dead, white, dead wife's grave while he's going to the 18th hole and all that stuff. But my though, is how are they getting this information? Because this is the thing I think that on our side, we struggle with, because we don't see the same things. Algorithms are different. You interact with different people. Where are they, first of all, where are they getting that, like, trans people are, are running wild all over the country, which is also not correct. And, and that Joe Biden was taking all these vacations with Donald Trump literally goes to Mar a Lago or to New Jersey every weekend. So where are they getting that from?
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C
I mean, obviously the boomers are getting it from Fox News. And Fox News is fake news. Like, no one's ever going to say it, but, like, they think it's real news. And CNN isn't for the younger generation. For the younger generation, it is 100% pushed propaganda on social media. All the influencers that get a lot of followers like me are in a cross point where, like, you have fundamental disagreements with Donald Trump. Am I going to, you know, lose this brand deal? Am I, am I going to say no more to all the views? Am I willing to lose, like 30? Dude, I've lost 30,000 followers in the past three, three weeks of me just saying, hey, F. Donald Trump. Most people aren't willing to do that. They're wanting to be groomed by the, by the, you know, the, the algorithm. Knowing that, hey, you know what, like, social wars, black versus white. Like, white man is the great man. Like, that's what sells for the Republican Party. When all actuality, we need to be talking about, like, let's arrest the freaking Epstein island pedophiles that you guys are protecting. Let's stop freaking bombing all these kids in Iran and like, let's not go to Cuba next. Let's focus on America.
- [11:49]
E
You know, that's, that's really interesting because you're describing the sunk cost fallacy, but I hadn't thought about it as a creator because I think all of us, like, behind the scenes, we talk about, you know, how do I make sure I don't say something stupid that accidentally gets me canceled or that loses me 100,000 or 30,000 followers. This is something that the creators talk about constantly, like, what. What is our brand and how do we make sure that we're sticking to it while also, you know, being honest and being fair when we are wrong or when we, you know, encounter some inconvenient information. So it's interesting, though, to think about that through that lens that we've got this paid in, in many cases, like, I think, heavily paid influencer network that has built their entire business and their entire life off of, off of pro Trump stuff now for maybe 10 or more years. And now they have to choose, like, do I give up my brand, my reputation, maybe my income so that I can, you know, be right or do what I believe, or do I just go down with the ship and hope I make enough money in the process and get a job on, you know, Newsmax or something to, to make a living? Like, that's a, that's a, that's just a tough personal economic decision for anyone to make. Not to mention the ego impact.
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A
I want to zoom in on the corruption side of things because it seems like that's where you really hate Trump now, which is great because Obvious is the most corrupt president of all time. It's not even close, but it seems like corruption is like your number one issue. So, like, theoretically, imagine that a Democrat was running for president who's their main goal was, I'm going to do what Trump did, which I've said he was going to do. I'm going to come in and be like, I'm going to drain the swamp, whatever the fuck they're going to use as their language. I hate the corruption in America. I'm going to redo the whole thing, I'm going to make it so there's no corporations getting involved in politics. Would that make you go, okay, shit, I'll go vote for that Democrat, or would the other policy things get in the way of that?
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C
No, I don't, I don't mind voting Democrat. I'm voting Democrat in the, in the midterms. I'm voting for a Democrat House. And we'll get into that, I'm sure, later in the broadcast. But, but in my opinion, I, I don't want to listen to politicians anymore. I want to see who's paying them, because I fell for all the lies from Trump and it was so easy to predict, although I wasn't educated enough to know where this was going because of all the Israeli lobbies in his back pocket. So moving forward, I don't, I don't even want to hear what a politician has to say, who's funding you, and then I'll tell you if I'm going to vote for you or not.
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B
So, so I have an interesting. Because you now have said the Israel lobby a couple times, and that is, by the way. That is correct. I do not disagree with that. But, but there are other lobbies in the Middle east that are, I'm sure there are maybe just as, as bad. Like, I don't even know if it got into your orbit that Jared Kushner, after 2020, went and made a deal with the Saudis for $2 billion, of which we don't really know what that was all about.
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C
I saw.
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B
Then all of a sudden they're like, you know, you. So you. Yeah, so, like, I just want to be clear because obviously there's a lot going on right now in the United States between what Israel is and anti Semitism is, and I would argue they're different. But I just want to be clear that he is getting billions of dollars from not only Israel, but he's getting it from the Saudis in particular, I think the Bahrainians. Is that how you say that? Like, there are people in the Middle east who want to do business with him and he's funneling money through crypto.
- [15:24]
D
There's a reason he got a big fucking plane.
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A
Yeah, right. But here's.
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B
Give him a billion dollar plan.
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C
If I could challenge, if I could challenge this idea, because I get this all the time with like, Thomas Massey, I'm a Thomas Massey supporter. So, like a lot of people that are like Muslim countries that are supporting him, he's not pushing, you know, Islam first agenda policies. The people that are in the Republican Party are clearly, clearly pushing policies that are Israel first. So when I see Israel first, you know, aipac, when I see Marion Adelson, when I see all these, like, the Israeli lobby pushing money to a particular politician on the right, I'm thinking they're throwing America under the bus to advance either the Israeli, you know, Israel Greater project or whatever, like weird conspiracy theory you think that is, or they're going to just be helping Israel. So, like, for whatever politics, unless you guys have information, I don't have any person that gets money from Saudi Arabia, Gaza, Palestine, you know, Afghanistan. I don't see them as much of a threat as opposed to Israel, at least not today. Would y' all agree or disagree?
- [16:37]
B
So the only thing I. Yes. And so the Saudis also wanted Donald Trump to evade Iran because they are mortal enemies. So MbS, the prince, the one that hacked the reporter with a hacksaw, an American reporter, that Donald Trump didn't do anything about that either. They wanted him to go in. And so it was the com. It's a weird mix over there. Right, because you've got Benjamin Netanyahu and you've got mbs who don't really like each other, but like each other more than they like Iran. So that was a joint. That was a joint pressure, I would say. Bibi was definitely more of an influence because of the, of the Adelsons and all of that stuff as well.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But the Saudis wanted. They were like, go do this. Well, they wanted us to do it.
- [17:19]
E
And then Yahoo Is, is military first. He's happy to hear it.
- [17:24]
D
If he doesn't have a military doing something, he's going to the fucking Jake.
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B
And to be clear, we all hate Benjamin Netanyahu. We all hate Benjamin Netanyahu.
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C
Right.
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E
Whereas Saudi Arabia is business first, like there who wants our oil. You know, let's like show us the money. Let's make some deals. So they take it from different directions, but they both want Iran to leave them alone so that they can make money. Well, Israel wants to expand and Saudi Arabia wants to make money, and Iran is inconvenient for both.
- [17:49]
B
Yeah, so. So I mean, but I understand your point. I think we agree we do not want foreign money in, in the government either.
- [17:57]
A
Right.
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B
And I think that this, this before probably you became politically aware, but we actually used to have campaign finance laws that made it very, very clear who you had to disclose. You had to do that. Republicans got rid of it.
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C
Yeah.
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B
And the Republican Supreme Court got rid of it. And so that's where all of a sudden. And we, and by the way, we spend just as much money. So it's not a dollars. I'm just giving some context of like we had reined it in. And I would love for there to be people on the right who joined with us in wanting a new version of campaign finance where businesses don't. Like the Supreme Court actually said that businesses are humans as far as the First Amendment goes. That was their argument.
- [18:33]
E
Yeah. A dollar is free speech.
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B
Right. So I would, I would love to find a group like you, you and some other folks who are for campaign finance and maybe we don't vote for the same president, but when it comes down to getting the job done, I would love, I would love people on the right to join with us on campaign finance report. Would, would that be something you would be, you would be open to?
- [18:52]
C
Of course. But man, like today I, I have. Last year I went to 20 different Democrat protests and most of them were like, casual conversations, but I'm walking around a Democrat protest in a MAGA hat. So obviously it was hostile. And I've just learned that our country is so divided and it's, it is, it is so easy for the, for the government to keep us divided and the media isn't helping. So I don't know what the solution it is like, you know, overturning Citizen United. Like, if you have a solution where we could come together and we could actually do it, that would be great. I don't know if that's going to actually happen in the near future. I think what's going to happen is two things. I think we're going to have to find Jesus or his history tells us this is going to get really violent really quick. I don't want it to go that way. But dude, like, the, the wage gap is increasing. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, more and more people are struggling. We just found our, like, I like Elon Musk. I'm a capitalist. Like, good for him to have a trillion dollars, but like, hopefully the opportunities would fall on me and you and my employees. I have a business. They have a family. I'm trying to help advance them. Yep, it's going to continue to get worse and worse.
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A
Helping you with that.
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B
Right?
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C
It's just, it's just going to get. Continue. Go ahead, go ahead, Luke.
- [20:14]
B
Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
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C
I was just gonna say, like, it, it just keeps getting worse and worse that it's only going to get violent. So like, that's my, that's Me ending. So.
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D
Sure, sure. I mean, I don't think, I don't think anybody here wants that to happen.
- [20:27]
B
No.
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D
So you say find Jesus and then you talk about like the things that have, that we need to do that for, you know, the swamp and the wage gap and the, all of that. And, and honestly, like the, the death of, of bipartisanship. You're talking about House of Citizens United. We couldn't overturn that if nowadays because there's such a divide. I would argue that most of the divide can be linked directly to Trump. I mean even the, the. A prime example is last week there was that bipartisan housing bill. I, you know, that bill wasn't perfect. I don't think it had enough teeth to it because it still let private Equity buy like 347 houses or something. Fucking ridiculous. But it was something like they were together.
- [21:07]
E
Yeah, yeah.
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D
It wasn't 10,000 houses. And that fucking piece of shit sat
- [21:12]
B
in the Oval Office that I'm not
- [21:13]
D
going to sign that until you pass this fucking save act to let me cheat. So I would, I find the, the, I would argue that instead of Jesus or violence, it's Jesus. Trump dies and we don't deal with that anymore.
- [21:28]
B
Or violence.
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D
There's three options, one of which is this big fucking asshole that has driven a giant wedge into this country not being involved anymore.
- [21:39]
C
Okay, well my question to you is like, has there been a, like, what happened when Biden was president? Did he not have the House and the Senate? I can't remember. I know Obama did, I think his first term.
- [21:51]
B
Well, he, he, he did and he actually passed more consequential legislation than Barack Obama did or George W. Bush or Donald Trump.
- [21:59]
D
He biggest, the biggest investment into American infrastructure in history.
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B
In history. We did the CHIPS act, which incentivized companies to build microchips in the United States instead of abroad. There were companies in like Germany and such that have moved here because of that. And I think that, I think of the problem here, and I think you're illustrating it perfectly and this is not a knock on you is just like, none of this stuff gets through.
- [22:21]
D
It's not flashy.
- [22:22]
B
The impenetrable force of right wing media, like those things happen. And he got Republican votes. Like I think you could actually say that. And I know this is going to blow MAGA minds, but like Joe Biden was the most bipartisan president that we've had in the 21st century. And it's not even close. It's not even close. CHIPS act got Republican votes Infrastructure bill got Republican votes. I think that climate bill might have gotten one or two.
- [22:47]
A
It's common sense shit. I mean, that's the thing.
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E
And that was all Covid shit too, right? That was all. Because he only had the majority for two years and it was all Covid recovery. So it was absolute fucking mayhem. And everybody was in a tailspin. The business community was in free fall for a while and then. And so to deal with that distraction and also pass a bunch of bills, there was, there was too much noise. And Democrats have clearly not done a good job of messaging wins. Instead we're just constantly responding to, I don't know what, conspiracies, fake news, like getting distracted.
- [23:23]
D
Well, that's just it. It's just, it's that further, it's that wedge being driven further and further.
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A
Right? Because that's the point is like there's a shit ton of common sense things Biden did like an infrastructure bill. Everybody wants that. You know, nobody's sitting there going, well, I don't know if we need better building at home. Right, exactly. So like, I think he attacked the things that he knew he could actually get some, some support on, which is extremely smart. And I think that Trump has done the polar opposite, which is like, I'm just going to just browbeat people with my crazy ass agenda. And that's.
- [23:52]
D
I have another question. What do you think of the Save America Act? Out of curiosity.
- [23:57]
C
I think it's just a hoax for the Republicans to try to convince the voters on the right that they actually care about election integrity. They don't. Like, you look at 2000, like with George Bush, like that whole thing was rigged. A lot of people might argue that the whole Thomas Massie thing was rigged, but the truth is like, you don't even have to rig elections.
- [24:18]
E
Oh, the 2000 election? Yeah, yeah.
- [24:21]
C
You don't even have to rig elections. Like, like 95% of elections are determined on who raises the most amount of money. So like just go get a trillionaire, multi billion, you know, billionaire, raise X amount of money and just primary the person you don't want out. That's why we have a whole bunch of compliant Republicans on the right that are afraid to like speak up and stand up against Trump. They're just going to get freaking ousted like Thomas Massie just did.
- [24:46]
A
So that, that actually brings me to one thing I wanted to ask you is in 2020, were you one of the people who were going along with Trump saying the election was stolen or were you not?
- [24:54]
C
No, man, I've Always known there was corruption on both sides. And I'm like, maybe, maybe there was evidence, maybe there's not. If there is evidence, both parties are doing it or no one's doing it. That's my theory. And it's still the same way to today.
- [25:08]
A
Yeah, no one's.
- [25:09]
B
Yeah, I think that's 100%. Right. But the, the amount of voter fraud that happened in 2020, you can count on, I may be on two hands. And actually the people that I think they actually caught, Republicans were voting for Donald Trump.
- [25:19]
D
Right. Trash bags of votes.
- [25:22]
E
Sorry, real quick, I want to point out what, just one thing. Just on that because. Yes, I, I'm, I'm glad to hear that. I did not know what your answer was going to be. I was a little. But you know, it's funny to look back and look at both parties complaining about elections because in 2020, you know, Trump said everything was fake and rigged. It's like, if we're going to rig elections, why wouldn't we give ourselves a filibuster proof majority in the Senate, for one. Why wouldn't we also do it in 2022 and why wouldn't we do it in 2024 where Republicans won everything? And then, then Democrats came back and said, well, the election was all fake and we can, we're never going to have fair elections again. And then Democrats won that Supreme Court, Wisconsin like over a year ago by, you know, by 10 points, by a 10 point margin. It's like, well, if we were gonna, if Trump was going to rig elections and he would have done that there. So I don't know, it's, I, I take the same approach. Show me the, show me the facts and the evidence, otherwise I'm not going to give a lot of credibility to, you know, fraudulent election claims.
- [26:23]
B
Yeah, I've got a couple of ones that are going to be maybe a little tougher for you, but I'll start with the easier one. What were your thoughts about January 6th?
- [26:31]
C
I didn't like it. It was disgusting.
- [26:33]
B
Because you just said, you just, you just said the election was, wasn't stolen. Okay, I'm sorry, go ahead. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.
- [26:37]
C
No, that's what I was just going to say. I didn't like it. I thought, like, dude, just, I, I value the Constitution. That's why I'm voting Democrat for in the midterms. Like, I love checks and balances. If the people, in my opinion, okay, there was, there was allegations of him rigging the election. Well, like okay, if the Democrats cheated, like y' all cheat better if, like that's behind the scenes rule, like if you are going to make up your own elections, like maybe you should have did it better like that. At the end of the day, I am what most people in America are. I have a business, I have like people that depend on me. Whatever's going on in Washington D.C. i know it's corrupt. I don't want it to affect me. And unfortunately, I voted Donald Trump three times and it's ended to now it is affecting me because our gas prices has doubled since we've attacked Iran and there's no end in sight. This war that we've celebrated winning, you know, 24 times is now falling through the cracks again. So like how many more times we're going to declare victory until like our troops come home, we stop bombing elementary kids. So I don't know if that answer your question. I'm just on a rant, but whatever.
- [27:43]
B
No, it does. No, it's. No, no, no, no, no, no. Actually, I mean, it's. I will be honest. Like, I am. I am a little surprised at some of the answers to your questions. I thought we would have a little bit more disagreement on this, but I appreciate your candor. This one might be a little tough question. I think you saw some. Oh, you're going to. Okay, so. So you, you say that you are Jesus first. Everything else comes after that, correct?
- [28:08]
C
Yes.
- [28:09]
B
Okay, so when you were going to Disney World and you were wearing a MAGA hat around, a lot of people who probably worry about their personal safety because of what Donald Trump is doing, whether they are a person of color, LGBTQ community, or whoever. And you did seem to revel in people being upset at you. How do you balance the Jesus first with enjoying making people feel miserable?
- [28:40]
C
Okay, so that's a great question. The, the whole MAGA movement is like, let's own the libs. As a, as a MAGA supporter, sure. For the past year and or two, I wasn't representing Jesus, to be brutally honest with you. It was just like, it was just like, hey, good entertainment. I got suckered into the. To the excitement of having hundreds of thousands of followers, like, how can I entertain these people? There's a lot. There's way worse stuff. If you, if you think me walking around Disney World and a MAGA hat is the worst thing that I've done, I've done way worse stuff on the Internet for sure. And not all of them is. Is Jesus first. Although I'm trying to get Back to that.
- [29:19]
B
So yeah, so there's this, there's this term that we use to, to, to explain MAGA on the left and it's something that is a reporter from the Atlantic, Adam Serwer has said. He, he basically says the whole premise of maga. And I don't mean Republicans and I don't mean conservatives, but Maga is that this quote, the cruelty is the point. How much do you think that that is true for maga? Because that's what we feel a lot of the time.
- [29:46]
C
I think it's both sides.
- [29:47]
B
Okay.
- [29:48]
C
I think it's both sides like right now because of Donald Trump. It probably started with him and it's probably more on the right. But yeah, it is. Since he's been in office, the temperament, the aggravation, the irritation, the Cruelty has amplified 100%.
- [30:04]
B
Okay, I want to ask One World Follow up and then Rich is going to ask the last question. You say both sides on the cruelty. Just as for us to hear what is the things that you think we are being cruel towards MAGA or the right?
- [30:15]
C
Well, let's, let's push. Well, first off, I was as mentioned, I've been to 20 different Democrat protests and I've been attacked, I've been insulted, like literally physically like attacked. So like the whole stuff there and you could go under like Charlie Kirk, you know, if that was a leftist or if, if it wasn't a leftist, the Butler, Pennsylvania thing, you know, I don't see a lot of people on the right. Although there was, there was something.
- [30:42]
E
The Hortman's in Minnesota.
- [30:44]
C
Yeah, there was something. Yeah, there was something. There's, there was, there were some stories on the right. But like as mentioned, whenever you're in the eco chamber of the right, you only hear about the stories on the left.
- [30:53]
A
Well, that's like.
- [30:55]
C
Yeah, I mean, honestly, let's just push the whole.
- [30:58]
A
Hold on, hold on. I want to start, I don't want to, I want to lose that yet because like you're essentially. This is an argument I always have a hard time with with the right. You're essentially saying the a few isolated acts of political violence are a blanket over the entire intention of the left, which is complete bullshit. Whereas the entire tension of the right intention is from the President, Donald Trump being that way. So that's where I think people on the left are like, how can you possibly justify any sort of equality between these two actions when one is from the mouth of the fucking leader and the other are these sort of lone wolves, isolationist attacks like how do you respond to that?
- [31:30]
C
Dude, I, I'm, I'm not defending Donald Trump anymore. I completely see 100%. I mean, the guy. Whenever I left Maga, the, the day I took my hat off, I'm thinking to myself that, did I make the wrong decision? Like, should I write it out another year and embarrass myself another year? Well, the very next day he's like, posting a picture. Like, he's, Jesus, you know, so it's
- [31:51]
B
like, yeah, yeah, dude, I'm not going
- [31:53]
C
to validate this guy anymore.
- [31:55]
B
Yeah, yeah. I just, and I just want to clarify because I know this is because it hasn't penetrated the info bubble. The vast majority of political violence in this country is perpetrated by people on the right. It is a fact. There are studies. You don't have to take my word for it.
- [32:08]
C
Are you talking about school shootings and it's specifically like a white guy or like, what's, what's that specific.
- [32:14]
B
No, no, no, no, no, no. Things that have a politically motivated violence. And this has been for 30 years. So this is not a MAGA thing. This is from the right. Most of militias in this country are from the right. Like, all of that type of violence generally, that doesn't mean 100%, but it's, but it's the vast majority.
- [32:30]
E
Yeah, it's more the political libertarian anarchy side of the right especially is where you get a lot of the really disgruntled people.
- [32:38]
B
Yeah, you got one last question, Rich, because he's got to go. But.
- [32:41]
E
Yeah, and can I just call you woke for short?
- [32:45]
C
Go ahead.
- [32:45]
E
No, that's, that's not, that's not the question. So something that really has stuck out just in this conversation and, and it blows my mind because it's like I'm so close to it. I see, I've seen through this and I work in, you know, journalism, marketing, so I. Messaging is what I do. And it's what I noticed first. You've described how really the, the messaging from Trump, not, not the policies, not the data, not the, the actions necessarily, but the message of, like, drain the swamp and America first. That those were really powerful for you and that those obviously hooked you. Those carried you through three different presidential cycles. And now you're seeing, like, well, the, the messaging and reality, in my opinion, were never the same. However, like, it took a long time for that to break. How does the left. We've talked about some of the wins that the left has delivered. Joe Biden, like, not everything's perfect, but how does the left crack that messaging war so that. So that we can start having that effect. I don't want to have people to be delusional and follow the left because we say the right things and we don't deliver on them, but we need to do that part of it, too. You have to write the good policies, but you also have to say the very simple phrases that stick in people's heads, like they. Them, you know, is popular, anti trans act. How does the left do this? In a simpler and more engaging fashion so that we can win some more of those battles.
- [34:17]
B
Yeah.
- [34:17]
C
The reality of the fact is the boomers are unreachable when it comes. When it comes to the MAGA boomers, there's nothing you could say. You're talking to a wall now. Anyone that's maybe 40 under you have a shot of them meeting you in the middle. There's still going to be, like, fundamental value differences. But the truth is, a lot of these people just have to have, like, a reality check. Like I did with Trump. We're like, dude, okay, am I gonna put my politics over my religion or am I going to go back to being a Christian? You know, like, I'm not okay with freaking foreign wars and killing kids in elementary schools and, and hiding, you know, protecting pedophiles. Like, how much trouble am I gonna have in this battle of my soul until I just take this MAGA hat off and just freaking burn it? And a lot of people, it's like, it's not what you can say. It's just them kind of coming up to the conclusion themselves. Now, one thing I will say for the people that are watching this, that are Republican, because that, that's why I'm extremely loud. A lot of people, when they leave the Republican Party or the MAGA Party, they're kind of just silent. They're kind of like, you know, they veer off to something else. They don't want to, like, lose their followers. But I'm very vocal because people to, like, leave the Republican Party as opposed to, you know, sit around and watch JD Vance take us through the exact same, you know, propaganda, and we vote for him again. But, like, it's no. The message to Land is playing. I'm sorry, I'm, like, ranting, that's okay. But it's. It's no longer right versus left. It's just not. And I think it hasn't been for a long time. But, like, social media has made it so obvious that, like, it is these people up here, the peasants are down here. We're working for them. That's the message. And that's like, drain the swamp is good, but Donald Trump is the swamp. Donald Trump is the deep state. Like, if anyone is an elitist that wants to have his own way, and it doesn't matter if you voted for that opinion or not, that definition is Donald Trump. And most people on the Republican side have not figured it out yet. And unfortunately, I'm one of the only few, at least, that are speaking up about it.
- [36:27]
B
I'm kind of. I was not expecting this to go this way, to be perfectly honest.
- [36:31]
D
I'm a little flabbergasted.
- [36:32]
B
I really, I really appreciate you doing this. I mean, guys, can we, can we invite him to the Woke Mind Virus chat right now? Bring it to Soros? Yeah. Soros leads the meeting. We, we pledge allegiance. I don't know what we pledge to, but we, you know, to the pagan, whatever, flying spaghetti monster. No, I'm just kidding. But, like, I appreciate this and I think, like, the problem, like, you're right. With social media. I'll let you go in a second. That all we're seeing are these debates where people trying to own people and yell back and forth. And I'm glad that you actually came up. I wasn't on it because I'm an old man and I was falling asleep. But like, that you came up to have a civil conversation. And I feel like I have. I have people that I know growing up who are maga. I can't. I haven't even been able to have a conversation like this with them. They're so, like, like locked into it. So I appreciate it. And I know, like, and I appreciate you voting for Democrats because I think, you know, I'll take the wins where I can get them. And you know what? Maybe we don't. We end up on different sides at the end of the day, but at least, like, we had a conversation. And we also agreed, no more wars, campaign finance reform, send everybody in the Epstein list to jail. Democrat, Republican, Independent, we don't care either. And so I appreciate you having this conversation. I wish you the best of luck. I, I would be curious to know if there's any Republicans listening. I'm not really sure, but maybe we have a few. Go. You know, but, like, you can go. Follow Never Woke on. Never woke across all the platforms, I think. And we're going to let you get back to work now, but we really appreciate this. Thank you very much. And maybe we'll have you on again in a few months when Trump.
- [38:00]
C
Hey, God bless you guys. Hey, Democrat House 2026.
- [38:03]
A
Let's go.
- [38:04]
C
Yes. I love it.
- [38:06]
B
I love it.
- [38:07]
C
All right, I'll end with this. Like, yeah, checks and balances is the fundamental, like, cornerstone of America, and the Republican Party has lost it. So for anyone that is a Republican, that is alarmed voting for a Democrat House, just understand you're not voting for Kamala Harris or Joe Biden. You're voting for checks and balances. You're voting for a bipartisan group of people to come together and come up with a solution. Not what's best for their party, but what's best for America. There's going to obviously be a legislative gridlock, but it's going to open up investigation investigations, like what happened with the Tomahawk missile that came from the sky and killed all these kids in Iran. That's when a Democrat House is going to be able to open up. So, like, I'm completely fine voting Democrat in the House right now. It looks like Thomas Massey is going to be my pick in 2028, but it's going to be. It's going to be a long few. Two and a half years. So we'll see what happens.
- [39:01]
B
You're telling. You're telling me, man. You're telling me it's going to be a slog. But anyways, we'll let you get back to work. Thank you very much for doing this. Everybody go follow them. If you're curious to see what a never are no longer MAGA looks like on the right. Thank you very much. Neverwelk.
- [39:14]
C
Hey, God bless you. Jesus loves you. Have a great day.
- [39:17]
B
All right, we are back. That was fascinating.
- [39:21]
D
I'd like to kick it. I'd like to kick it off with an apology to anybody that was expecting me to tell them to get fucked.
- [39:27]
B
I am not willing to do that
- [39:28]
D
to somebody who says they want to vote for a Democrat House. No, I will not do that. If somebody's being respectful and they want to further something that is going to help this country, I'm not going to tell them.
- [39:39]
B
And he's in Florida. Yeah, like, he's in Florida. Like it matters. And yes, you know, we're not gonna probably vote for the same person in 2028. But, like, you take the W's where you can, and I think it's very useful for people to see that they can leave maga, still be a Jesus lover. I guess he didn't really how to say he wants to describe himself, but, like. And vote for Democrats, because that does make sense. But, like, they need to see it from that side as well.
- [40:04]
A
Yeah, that was crazy.
- [40:05]
E
Yeah. I didn't, I didn't get to ask him how, how many genders there are. I was hoping to.
- [40:10]
D
I was gonna ask him about Salarico. I'm curious.
- [40:16]
E
I, I agree, though. The, the takeaway for me is like, there are all sorts of, you know, why did you this? And, you know, you should have that. And, like, that's not, it's not a productive conversation. But really what I see is, like, I've been deconstructing my own my whole life, and I. Anytime I get an opportunity to dec. Of my. I try. He is on the very early end of deconstructing his own, and wherever that leads him is going to be good. Because when you just try to find correct answers versus just believing, like, what feels good or what people who you trust tell you to believe, like, it usually takes you in a better direction. As long as you're actually, like, looking for facts and not just, like, ending up on YouTube conspiracy rabbit holes.
- [41:04]
C
For sure.
- [41:05]
A
I mean, I, the thing that struck me, like, the moment that struck me the most was when Tim, you were pressing him on, you know, it's not very Christlike to do the things that you were doing and him being like, yeah, no, I, I, that was. Yeah, like, I did not anticipate that. That's cool. I mean, like, I, I do respect that. That's tough to do. He did terrible.
- [41:25]
B
This is what we thought people were gonna do after that horrible Access video, Access Hollywood video came out.
- [41:31]
A
That's.
- [41:31]
B
This is what I thought, at least enough. I didn't, I don't mean all of them, but I thought, like, right. 10, 15. I watched that video and I was like. Or I was like, Hillary's gonna win with 450 electoral votes.
- [41:41]
E
Yeah, it's over for him. I thought it was gonna be.
- [41:44]
B
And then it actually did the opposite.
- [41:47]
E
Right.
- [41:47]
B
Like, clearly. Yeah.
- [41:48]
E
And I think that's his point is the, the economic populism argument. James Carville, who sucks now, he said it 30 years ago. It's the economy stupid. Yeah, but, but he was, but he was correct in the mid-90s when he said, it's the economy stupid. Like that. He coined that, you know, almost 40 years ago now, 35 years ago, and it's still correct. But we constantly underappreciate the value or the impact of, like, if you, if you're afraid of losing your house, if you're afraid of your vehicle not getting you to work, of putting food on the table, or like healthy food on the table for your do whatever you
- [42:28]
D
think might work and you will look whatever in the fucking world that's the
- [42:32]
E
A1 priority in your life life and you will not care about somebody else eating in in Iran or Gaza if you can't. If you don't feel that security about yourself. And so all of that other shit goes out the window.
- [42:45]
B
So I think there is a lot to learn here for Democrats who want to run in 2020 and I think like there are those three areas that we talked about that wouldn't even be hard for they just have to lean into them more. One, I would appoint a special prosecutor for Epstein and go after every one of those single fucks.
- [43:00]
A
Yep.
- [43:01]
B
Remove yourself from the process and like the Attorney General appoints somebody and then is out. That's one. Two no wars unless we are attacked militarily. Seems like a no fucking brainer defensive only the most, the most comprehensive set of of anti corruption measures in the House that anyone has even seen including giving Congress back the powers to. I mean I know they don't technically have the power to declare war but take that stupid. What is AUMF out from, from from 9 11. No more. None of this. Because when you look at all of these even on the Democratic side they didn't really work. Like Libya didn't work Syria we pussyfooted round and then didn't do anything and that wasn't great. And like so like you I think that if somebody runs on those three things and they scream them from the rooftops. I'm not saying they're going to win but I think that they, I think that starts to peel some of these people back.
- [43:56]
A
Definitely you can convert them for sure in a big way which is interesting. Like I mean a lot of the shit he was saying, I'm sitting there thinking like this could be a leftist. Like I don't, you know this easily could be a leftist here.
- [44:06]
D
Right. You cut the Jesus stuff, you cut the trans stuff, you cut the semi anti Semitic stuff and suddenly you have a leftist. You know.
- [44:15]
B
Well you noticed that, that I did in a way that wasn't like don't. You're not like I wasn't going that way. You do know about Saudi Arabia and all the shit that we've got or that Trump's gotten from them. Like this isn't just Miriam Adelson and Benjamin Netanyahu. No there is a whole cabal of people who have funneled billions of dollars into the Trump family and, and nobody even, no one even knows how much that there is. Or the plane. Right. Like you who. I think whoever said it was like
- [44:43]
D
they billion dollar plane.
- [44:44]
B
Billion dollar plane. Because they like him.
- [44:46]
E
No, of course not.
- [44:47]
A
I think it's a richest point. He's a little too early in his deconstruction for us to press him on that. I think he's still in like the, well, the Jews aren't great kind of phase. Like, okay, yeah, it's like, come on.
- [44:56]
E
No, and it's still, it's still the same issue. It's the, it's the money and the corruption and the influence peddling, not the religion. It's not bad because they're Jewish or Muslim or Christian. They're bad because they're pieces of shit and they're taking everything from everybody else and giving it to themselves and each other.
- [45:14]
D
This was pretty easy to say. Religious fundamentalism bad. Doesn't matter what religion it is.
- [45:20]
B
I'm not, I'm not sure we would have gotten him on that one. Maybe I don't see it.
- [45:24]
E
Because I think you could say weaponizing fundamentalist religion to get yourself power and money, I think he would agree with. And that's not, that's not maybe something. He would have probably challenged the word weaponizing or something, you know, two years ago. Whereas now it feels like he might be receptive to that. So I would say, like, keep chasing that top versus bottom. But understand that, like, since Reagan, top and right wing have been synonymous. They just, they make it about culture wars, but it. But economically, Wall street billionaires and Republicans are all the same fucking people.
- [45:57]
A
Yep.
- [45:57]
C
Yeah.
- [45:58]
B
I also think the other thing was interesting. When we pressed him on other things that were facts, he didn't fight it.
- [46:03]
A
No.
- [46:03]
B
He was just like, oh, I don't know. Yeah, like about the right way, the violence. Because he brought up the violence thing. Right. He was like, oh, the left is. And I'm like. And you. You as well, Zach. We're like, well, that's not accurate.
- [46:13]
A
Right.
- [46:14]
B
You're cherry picking. Every group of people has somebody who has done something bad. That doesn't mean the whole group is bad.
- [46:19]
A
Exactly.
- [46:20]
B
But, but like, also, I go Google it. Go look. Yeah, there'. After study. It's. It's right wing violence.
- [46:26]
C
And.
- [46:27]
B
But like, what's interesting is this. It's a validator of what we're doing because no one is piercing their media diet.
- [46:35]
A
No.
- [46:35]
B
Nobody.
- [46:35]
A
No.
- [46:36]
B
Because they have no fucking idea about any of this. Citizens United. Oh, did you know that Republicans were the ones that got rid of that. Oh, No, I didn't. That's really interesting. Oh, did you know that right. Right wing commits most political violence? Oh, I had no idea. I'm like, those are big things. Those things you should know. You should know those things. But, but, but, but, but. Right, but, but I think my point is like, like the right has created this cocoon essentially of information. They never hear it, which is why we have to do shit like this.
- [47:02]
A
That's the str. It's a structural problem because like essentially what we've had this whole time is the right will make a big bold claim with no facts and will respond with facts that does, that doesn't invite the people who bought the original claim to investigate. They're just like, no, you shut up. But if we are at the same par level of like.
- [47:20]
B
Right.
- [47:20]
A
Top level. This is the messaging and it's competitive. Then they have to look to see which one is right. You know, and that.
- [47:26]
B
A hundred percent. Yeah, that is. Well, I think part of it, at
- [47:30]
D
least for me because like I, I always think about this and it immediately goes back to Trump and Harris's debate. They should never have one of those again. If you can't have, if you can't have a fact checker that is going to sit there and say that's a
- [47:44]
B
goddamn lie, that's a huge problem.
- [47:47]
D
They should never have another one because there were, there are still people that tell me to this day that Haitians were eating dogs and cats.
- [47:53]
A
Oh yeah, yeah. It's a huge, it's a huge.
- [47:54]
E
And it's me and Kelly, like Megan Kelly just repeated some that like two days ago.
- [47:58]
D
I think people underestimate the sheer impact
- [48:01]
B
that, that that debate had.
- [48:02]
D
And also the debate with Biden.
- [48:04]
A
Oh, that was.
- [48:05]
B
Well, they would.
- [48:06]
D
I'm willing to say that the, the Harris Trump debate was the single biggest moment of misinformation spread that reached the most ears of the entire 24 election cycle.
- [48:15]
E
Yeah, but the problem, we were laughing. That's the thing.
- [48:19]
B
We laughed because it was like believe it.
- [48:20]
D
Surely you dumb aren't going to believe that.
- [48:22]
B
And then they did.
- [48:23]
C
Did.
- [48:23]
A
That's the. But that's the problem with fact checking it even is it doesn't really do anything because in the moment they're like, well the fact checkers are lying. Like it's, it ultimately like any sort of that we have to deal with is down level at the messaging level because that they're already entrenched in it. Like.
- [48:38]
E
Right. You need them to believe the truth before they believe the lie. Because I Remember when they turned on Snopes and it was like, well, what are we even doing now? If, if, if, if, if people say, here's the evidence trail that proves that this conspiracy or that this lie is a lie. And they go, well, you're just part of the deep state. It's like they had to become the deep state and then see everything go fucking terribly.
- [49:02]
A
Yes.
- [49:03]
E
To understand that maybe, maybe they were wrong for 10 years.
- [49:07]
B
Well, but this is why we have been losing for. Even though we've won some elections in between, we've been losing because they have been building this media ecosystem for 30 years. Fox News was built to provide not only right wing information, but to also move the others more to the middle.
- [49:22]
A
Yes.
- [49:22]
B
To get rid of that leftist or not even leftist lean, but just like,
- [49:26]
E
just like the truth lane.
- [49:29]
B
And then the media, then the media had to go, shit, they've gone so far. Right.
- [49:33]
A
Right.
- [49:33]
B
These guys have pretty much stayed the same. Which again, statistically proven, I don't care what anybody says. But like, you know, then they go, well, we got to stay in the middle of this. And the middle just goes in windows. And then all of a sudden, and then it's, yeah, we were. But that's why everybody listening who has disposable income, this is, I'm not saying just for us, but yes, please get a membership. But you have to fund a left leaning media ecosystem because traditional media is dead. No one's watching it. Yeah, Barry Weiss is destroying cbs. She's going after CNN next. Not that that needs much killing, but, but like there is nothing left. So that's why this is important. Yeah. And those other things aren't going to get big because no one's going to watch fucking TV anymore. You've got to like, you've got to build these ecosystems that then cut the clips and make sure they're everywhere. This is why it matters. And people are, oh, you're just like podcasting or whatever. It's like this is how people get information now, guys. Luke. What? Luke, what number of followers did you pass on TikTok this week? One milli, baby.
- [50:32]
A
Let's go.
- [50:32]
B
Do you know the, you know the last time a cable news network had a million viewers in an 18 to 34 block? Never.
- [50:39]
A
Well, FOX still gets it, I think.
- [50:41]
B
And Rich.
- [50:42]
E
No, not in, not in that.
- [50:43]
B
Not in that.
- [50:43]
E
Not in the, not in those prime demographics.
- [50:46]
C
Yeah.
- [50:46]
E
So, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm over 2 million all in, like across all the platforms. And they're Mostly unique. Because the people that watch them on YouTube, they're not going and watching the same videos. Occasionally you get a free. Like when somebody sees your video in two places. But no, it's mostly, mostly, mostly just unique viewers. And, and if you go look up right now this. How many viewers does CNN get per day? Like, think the fact is that one of our videos. Zach, I saw you had one a couple of days ago that went uber viral on, I think on TikTok. Any one of our accounts can get a month's worth of unique viewers on a cable news network in one video. And we also can do it in a, In a two hour turnaround.
- [51:29]
A
Yes.
- [51:30]
E
It's just like, are we telling the truth? Are we sourcing our facts? Are we, you know, even integrity, which is. Well, guys, I don't lie, but I'm not gonna. I don't have lawyers. Read my script.
- [51:42]
A
No, the, the one thing, like, I agree with everything you're saying. The media is extremely important. It's a huge facet of it. I think the deficiency isn't going to be that for us. The deficiency is the Democratic Party still doesn't know how to fucking talk to people. Like, that's.
- [51:52]
E
Yeah, it's a message. It's a messaging itself.
- [51:54]
A
We're doing it for them now, but when you stick these morons up on stage and they start parroting a bunch of. We're like, what is ha. What are you saying? Don't do this. Like, that's a huge issue. So, like, we need to figure out how to get Democrats to understand, like the basic tenants of communication of like, why the right is so good. It's like, know who you're talking, what they want to hear, and know how to say it. The end.
- [52:15]
B
Can we please ban stock trades? Holy shit.
- [52:19]
E
Oh, my God.
- [52:20]
B
How is this debatable?
- [52:21]
D
Agreed.
- [52:21]
B
I do not understand. I do not understand it. And if people don't want to do it, leave Congress, there will be people who replace you. It makes me fucking crazy because nobody needs it. We all know once those people leave after the two year break of lobbying, they're all going to make a shit ton of money. So why the fuck do you have to do this? Just Democrats just own it. I don't understand. It makes me crazy. It makes me want to run out of this building screaming.
- [52:44]
E
That's the problem.
- [52:45]
B
Because Chuck Schumer lives around here. So like, I'm just like, God damn it. Like, just do it, guys. If you want to win, people will respect that. Well, we need a car vou for
- [52:55]
D
like, we only make $175,000 a year.
- [52:58]
B
Go yourself.
- [53:00]
D
Mike Johnson, upper middle class, literally fist yourself.
- [53:02]
B
I have to. I. I have a. I have a. I have a special announcement to make. Yes.
- [53:06]
A
Yeah.
- [53:08]
B
Oh, it's not working.
- [53:09]
A
Oh, no. Is it a sound?
- [53:11]
B
It is a sound.
- [53:12]
A
There we go.
- [53:13]
D
Damn it.
- [53:16]
B
I passed 100,000 on Tik Tok.
- [53:18]
A
Let's go.
- [53:21]
B
It's not as cool as a million, but still.
- [53:23]
D
Luke.
- [53:24]
B
Luke might have helped me. I had to say it so that I will never. I don't have to talk about it ever again.
- [53:28]
C
It's true.
- [53:29]
B
Until I suck at 990. 999.
- [53:31]
A
Before.
- [53:33]
E
Before we. Before we. Before we kick it. I just. I. On this, on the messaging, just because, you know, I mentioned James Carville earlier, but Democrats are already in this. Like, is socialism bad thing? Like, we need. Should we. Is. Should we say socialism is. Do we need to. It's like, dude, you're talking about the words and you're not talking about the actual things. Just talk about the actual things. Say that you want to get middle class workers rich. Just say that. And don't say any of the other words because they're not necessary. You just need people to hear. You get paid more when Democrats are in charge and then we sort out how that. Where the child care comes from, where the health care comes from, where the pay raises come from. You don't show all of the sausage making to the average person. And now we've already got James Carville arguing about, like, whether we're using GMO pork in the sausage label.
- [54:29]
B
Oh my God.
- [54:29]
A
Guys.
- [54:30]
B
Just like, they just don't know how
- [54:31]
D
to shut the literal fuck up.
- [54:33]
A
I do think it's important though. Like, it, like, essentially what you're describing with democratic socialism is the packaging of the product. So like, I don't want to. We can't just ignore that. Like, we're trying to sell a hot dog and the packaging is a giant piece of. On the front. Like, it's. It's not. That's not going to sell. So, like, I agree that underneath the messaging really matters, but we also need to make sure the packaging reflects the
- [54:53]
E
value message if we need to rebrand socialism or whatever. Like, this is all a bigger conversation.
- [55:00]
C
But.
- [55:01]
E
But saying like, democratic socialism has no place or socialism, like, which is. They're. They're not even saying denim democratic socialism. They're just saying socialism has no place in the Democratic Party. It's like, first, what the fuck are you talking about? Every one of Our most successful policies from since FDR has been socialism leaning. But also there's not a fixed definition of socialism. We're not talking about the government taking over companies if you want to use that definition. Donald Trump. Trump bought a stake in Intel. Like Donald Trump is doing more corporate owned capital than any Democrat has ever done before. He's doing the worst parts of socialism.
- [55:39]
A
The problem isn't socialism and what it is. The problem is what that people don't know what it is. So they put a whole different meaning on it. But if you were to explain it to people, they'd be like, oh, that's fine, but they don't fucking get it.
- [55:50]
E
Exactly.
- [55:51]
B
Everybody loves.
- [55:52]
E
That's what I mean.
- [55:52]
B
Social Security, they love social democracy.
- [55:55]
D
I said this last time, we need to quit calling it democratic socialism. Just call it social democracy.
- [56:00]
A
Yeah, with a lot of other countries.
- [56:02]
B
But here's the problem. I think we're doing the same thing that we always do, which is eat each other a lot. Why are we talking about socialism at all? Why aren't these. What. What has Zoramimdani done that is so socialist? That is outside the mainstream of the Democratic Party. Anything, like anything. He jumped up in a pool with his suit the other day.
- [56:20]
D
That was that.
- [56:22]
B
It was pretty cool.
- [56:23]
E
As long as it wasn't a tan suit.
- [56:25]
B
Well, you.
- [56:25]
D
Oh no.
- [56:26]
B
Well, the Washington or the New York Post just ripped him because they were like them. Dottie violates dress code and jumping into
- [56:31]
D
pool and they're going after his wife for the dress she wore to the next.
- [56:36]
B
But like, but like balancing the, but the, balancing the budget. Not socialist rent freeze. Giving rent freeze is, you know, that's a bit socialist. But like, but the, and the expanding Pre K to 2 year olds, you know, people pay for that, you know. But like these are all things democrats push for. So I don't understand why we're talking about, about moderates and socialists. It's like, can't we just be a big fucking tent and not get the fuck. All these moderates like Tom Swozy is like they're starting this new thing back against the left. And I'm like, what left are you fighting against? Universal health care? Good luck, buddy.
- [57:09]
E
The part of socialism framing that I am personally going to invest time in just flat out rejecting is even when you just get on the Internet and you look up like, what is the definition of democratic socialism? What is the definition of socialism? Communism, Marxism. They all talk about like taking back wealth or taxing the rich. No, the workers generate wealth. People and the natural world are where wealth comes from, right? The CEOs and the board members and the shareholders, they are taking it from the workers and from the natural world that we all own together. And they are consolidating it. What we are doing is we are keeping wealth where it belongs. We are not reallocating wealth or redistributing wealth from the rich. We are keeping wealth with the people who generate it where it belongs. That is what social democracy, socialism, democratic socialism. That is what that is.
- [58:04]
B
Just say you're an FDR Democrat, right? I mean, other than the.
- [58:09]
E
There's a few working class progressive, like, I don't know there's any of that. There's so many ways to make it resonate.
- [58:14]
B
This, like ds these, these labels. It's like, stop it with the labels. Like doing it to ourselves again.
- [58:21]
E
As soon as you have a label, you gatekeeper.
- [58:22]
D
Keep. I hate.
- [58:23]
E
Keep.
- [58:23]
D
I hate getting a DM from people. They're like, well, do you call yourself a communist or a social democrat or a democratic socialist or a leftist or you call yourself a Democrat or do you call yourself a black.
- [58:34]
B
I don't give a. And you're.
- [58:37]
D
You annoy me just as much as MAGA does.
- [58:39]
B
Well, and here's the deal. Zach is on one end of the, of the Democratic spectrum. I'd say Luke, you're probably on. And then Rich, you're probably closest to Luke, and I'm closer to Zach. But we're all kind of at the, like, we don't all agree on everything.
- [58:51]
A
It's.
- [58:51]
B
But we, we do agree on one thing. Winning.
- [58:53]
A
Yeah.
- [58:54]
B
Hate Nazis. That's what I agree on. Right. I hate them. This is not, this is not hard. This is why when I see Tom Swozzi and these like moderates, these third way, like whatever guys are like, oh, we're going to. I'm like, what are you advocating for compromise with the administration that has like caused millions of people to die around the world because they cut USAID or got billions of dollars in crypto money that will never track.
- [59:17]
C
Why would.
- [59:18]
B
How is that appealing to fucking anybody?
- [59:20]
E
Well, and, and when there is a pedo bombing schools in the White House, how is your first priority to pry to. To focus on the name of the people you're arguing with about who has less power right now? Like, right, there are 100,000 things that are more important to talk about among moderate centrist Democrats from swing districts. Whatever. Fuck off. Either get unemployed or talk about the correct things. But whining about the other people who you're in the fucking trenches with is the worst possible approach.
- [59:54]
B
Exactly. And honestly, when you talk about negotiations and you're talking about meeting Republicans, you know what that means in reality? Slashing Social Security and Medicare, Right?
- [60:03]
C
Yep.
- [60:04]
B
Because those are the two things that Republicans want to gut, and they are big money spenders. We don't want to. And those are the chips. So if you want. Want to go and sign little Tom Swoze's little. Little petition that he created, that's what you're signing up for. So, like, let's just stop the nonsense right here. Those are also the people that killed the public option. Like all that.
- [60:24]
E
Yes.
- [60:25]
B
Like, yes. And I'm not even the left. I'm. I never voted for Bernie or any of that shit. And I'm just like, fuck it. Like, enough with this. Like, own your lane. And even that guy never woke. Would be more likely to vote for a progressive Democrat than a moderate.
- [60:37]
A
Definitely.
- [60:38]
E
I think he would have left Bernie's. I think Bernie's. Because Bernie went out with a. With a forceful, clear message that never really fluctuated, never really varied. And so if you heard Bernie on tv, if you heard him on a stage in town, or if you heard him on stage on the Internet, it was always the same three or four concepts. It was like pro worker stuff, pro healthcare stuff, pro environment stuff.
- [61:01]
C
And.
- [61:01]
E
And he just. He didn't even talk about the other. Even when he was. He was forced to talk about gun control. He was just like, I don't want to talk about gun control. I want to talk about workers. You know, he didn't.
- [61:12]
B
Well, he didn't want to talk about that for.
- [61:13]
C
Well, yeah, right.
- [61:15]
B
But I get.
- [61:15]
E
But I get he wanted to talk about workers. He wanted to talk about people getting paid more like. Because every word you spend on something else takes you off your brand, takes you off your game.
- [61:26]
C
And.
- [61:26]
E
And it's just a lower priority for him.
- [61:28]
A
No, I mean, that's okay. This got white guys in the, you know, red areas are Bernie Sanders. Bread and butter when it comes.
- [61:36]
D
Yeah. I mean, that's fucking. In Virginia. That video where I think he goes into Virginia.
- [61:40]
A
Like into West Virginia.
- [61:41]
D
Yeah, West Virginia and talks to him. Magic.
- [61:44]
A
They love them. They're just like, oh, this old Jew is great.
- [61:49]
B
We're seeing some vein of that with Platter.
- [61:52]
E
Yeah, yeah.
- [61:52]
B
As well. People have been willing to overlook some past transgressions, to put it mildly.
- [61:58]
D
And.
- [61:58]
A
Sure.
- [61:58]
D
And.
- [61:59]
B
But like, he's saying the right things. And it is true. This, like, if you look at the wealth equality since. Against Ronald Reagan. Like, it is exploding terrible. It is all Republican policies. Like, if you want a strong middle class, if you want a strong working class, you have to put safety nets in place, you have to put incentives in place. And you've got to tax the richest among us, which is first of all how the highway system got built in this country.
- [62:21]
A
Right.
- [62:22]
B
Top marginal tax rate in the 50s was 90%.
- [62:26]
A
Yeah.
- [62:26]
B
That's how this country got great. I know, was taxing rich people. And now you say it as a. Like, whoa, how dare you. I just want to be left alone. I'm like, okay, could I take the road away from your street? Then turn your sewer off, turn your water off, turn your electricity off.
- [62:39]
A
Exactly.
- [62:39]
B
Like all that.
- [62:40]
C
Y.
- [62:41]
A
Like, seriously, it's the dumbest. Like, they made it so any regulation is bad. It's like, like it's. It's like, let's play a game of football. But everybody on both teams can play at the same time. And there's no rules. Like, we need 11 on each side. Like, there's got to be like at least guide posts.
- [62:56]
E
You can't have knives.
- [62:57]
D
We don't get to around with like the basic rules.
- [63:00]
B
We. We used to have rivers in this country that were on fire. And then we created the. In Ohio.
- [63:06]
A
Right.
- [63:07]
B
And then we created the epa, which by the way was created by Richard Nixon, a Republican, who other than other than the crooking part, wouldn't be a Republican today. No, that part that keeps him over there. But. But it's just like there's one whole side who's lost their minds and we keep playing this game. And I think it's just like it. Stop it. Stop this. Like, well, oh, yeah, I think I could negotiate with J.D. vance. I'm like, oh, my God, what?
- [63:32]
E
And I have to say, just by the numbers game, because I still like winning and I'm still pissed we haven't won nearly enough. The reason we won the Midwest and the Rust Belt for decades consistently was not because of politics from the south or politics from California or Seattle. I support all of those politics and people and policies as well. But the reason we won the Rust Belt in the Midwest was because of the. Of populism, economic populism, working class labor union voters, they don't care really about trans kids playing in sports, should they? Absolutely. They should care more about other people. But when it comes to how they take care of their families, what brought them to the Democratic Party and where we started losing them to Trump was working class grocery bill paycheck. Health care policies. And we have to. That has to be a core part of our coalition, along with the rights for everybody, equality, dei, diversity. Like, this is. These are all of our things. You can't just give one to the Republicans and hope that those voters stay with you for reasons that don't exist anymore.
- [64:46]
B
Right?
- [64:46]
A
Yep.
- [64:47]
D
Yep.
- [64:48]
B
Well, guys, I think, I think we've. I think we've covered.
- [64:50]
D
It's a long one. Yeah, this is.
- [64:51]
B
This was good. I am a good one. This room is like a billion degrees. This is also the reason I want to get out of here here. But anyways, everybody let us know what you think, because, like, obviously we kind of, like, went back and forth and we were like, should we. I think we mostly lean towards doing it. Yeah, sure, but, like, I think so. I don't want to, like, be like, oh, well, it's 50 50. But, you know, I think we, we did say it was either going to be amazing or an absolute show. And I, I think it tended towards amazing. At least we got some interesting things out of it. And I think it's a good conversation. And hopefully this can give people who are listening, if you have some, let's say, disaffected Trump voters maybe some ammunition to, like, go to them and say, you know, this is someone else's.
- [65:32]
D
Do it.
- [65:32]
B
One of these big creators is doing this. Maybe you should listen to him. And I don't, I don't want to make this guy like, some sort of martyr or anything, but, like, I do think, like, he could, he could speak to some folks. Right. And like, that in a way that we can't. So I, I think it was worth it. I'm curious what people think. I know you get a little trouble for, like, platforming people, but, like, I actually think he has done enough to show that he is out of that group, which means. Which warrants the conversation. I hope people agree with that. Anyways, yeah, so that's great. So everybody, we made a. This, this whole episode was just a giant advertisement for you to get paid memberships. Find out media, because we knew we weren't. That the left wasn't breaking through. Through. I'm sort of kidding, but I'm sort of not. And I think that, like, if you have money to spend, you should be spending it on alternative media, independent media that are having these conversations, because this is the. We need. This is like what Barry Weiss pretended with that stupid debate that she had was just two people yelling at each other. But this is, this is the thing I actually find to be interesting. And I think, I hope everybody else did as well. And it is actually something where you learn something rather than just, was that Harry that, did that Harry sister do that? Yeah, like, just like, just destroyed that woman. She didn't have any, like, she had nothing. Right. There's like no value in that whatsoever. So anyways, let us know what you think. We'll be back on Friday. Remember, we're recording on Friday, so I don't think we have a guest for Friday. So we'll have to figure out some sort of funny thing to do or hilarious.
- [66:59]
A
I got some thoughts.
- [67:00]
B
We always do. All right, guys, everybody have a great week. Also, be sure to check out our lives on Friday on YouTube. Also, we've been going live on Tik Tok a little bit again, mostly through Luke and Rich's account, so you may want to check those on evenings.
- [67:14]
D
We've been having a lot of fun.
- [67:15]
B
Yeah, a lot of fun. We're, there's actually been more debates on there, which is, you know, I know
- [67:20]
D
Z and I dumped a guy last week. It was hilarious.
- [67:24]
A
That guy doing the thing that I
- [67:25]
B
said had no value. Please go watch that now.
- [67:28]
A
It's just.
- [67:29]
E
No, I, I, I was just going to add in, like, because this is dropping Tuesday morning. This is going to come out, what, like half an hour before the birthright citizenship case gets announced. So this is, this whole thing is going to be so obsolete by the time people are listening. You'd be like, why aren't you talking about the only thing that matters?
- [67:45]
A
Yeah, we'll talk about it.
- [67:46]
B
We'll talk about it on Friday.
- [67:47]
A
Exactly.
- [67:48]
B
Oh, I didn't even think about that.
- [67:50]
E
But yep, that's, that's old crusty ass news. By Friday. We'll figure it out. Maybe we'll drop a bonus edition tomorrow.
- [67:58]
B
There'll be tomorrow. No, we're not making any more shows. I can handle that. All right, guys, everybody have a great week. We'll be back on Friday. Until then, we'll see you later. Bye, everybody.