Find Out: How Democrats can fight back

Summary

The Find Out Podcast: Episode Summary – "How Democrats Can Fight Back"

Release Date: April 1, 2025

Introduction: Setting the Stage

In the third episode of The Find Out Podcast, host Tim and his co-hosts delve into a pressing and contentious issue: how Democrats can re-engage and appeal to men, particularly white men, a demographic that has increasingly leaned towards the Republican side in recent elections. Tim opens the conversation by acknowledging the challenge, stating, “We’re going to have to build a coalition which includes more of them” (00:00).

1. The Challenge of Women's Candidacies and Military Backgrounds

The discussion begins with Vic reflecting on a prior conversation about female candidates and the implications of their backgrounds. He raises concerns about questioning whether a woman, specifically Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC), can win an election or lead the military, noting that such questions effectively provide the right-wing with excuses and preloaded criticisms (00:56).

Zach and Chris respond, agreeing that while the qualifications of a candidate should be scrutinized, attributing electoral losses solely to gender is misguided. Zach clarifies that his critique was not about women per se but about the specific qualifications of candidates like AOC, suggesting that with the right background—citing Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris as examples—a woman could indeed serve effectively as commander-in-chief (01:43; 02:49).

2. Civilian Leadership vs. Military Leadership

Tim pushes the conversation towards the efficacy of military backgrounds in leadership roles, arguing that historically, presidents with military experience haven’t consistently led to successful foreign policies. He cites George W. Bush’s presidency as an example of a "foreign policy disaster" despite military credentials and contrasts this with Bill Clinton’s successful air campaign in Bosnia that resulted in no American casualties (02:49; 04:01).

Vic adds historical context by referencing the founders' intention for civilians to oversee the military, emphasizing accountability and preventing military dominance in governance (04:06).

3. Messaging and Stereotypes: The Idolization of Success

The conversation shifts to the messaging strategies of the Democratic Party and how they may inadvertently alienate potential male voters. Rich shares a personal anecdote about the inconsistency and perceived hypocrisy in Republican messaging, particularly how Donald Trump's administration included numerous billionaires who seemingly don't align with the average American's interests (04:26).

Chris brings up the problem with Democratic messaging often attacking billionaires, arguing that it alienates successful individuals who could otherwise support the party. He states, “They always bring it back to, as long as we tax the billionaires, nobody's buying it” (42:20). Zach concurs, suggesting that Democrats need to focus less on demonizing success and more on presenting clear, confident plans that resonate with the average voter’s aspirations (42:38).

4. Stereotypes and the Middle Group

Luke introduces the issue of middle-group perceptions, using the example of his gym acquaintance who idolizes right-wing figures like Joe Rogan and Ben Shapiro. This highlights how entrenched stereotypes can shape individuals' political leanings without them fully recognizing the underlying misinformation (32:17; 33:09).

Rich and Vic emphasize the importance of addressing these stereotypes without resorting to insults. They argue that labeling the middle group as "idiots" (12:51) is ineffective and instead suggest more nuanced communication strategies that respect and address their concerns (13:18).

5. The Role of Authenticity and Inclusivity

Zach points out that the Democratic Party often struggles with appearing inauthentic due to its efforts to be inclusive and thoughtful. This can lead to perceptions of the party as inauthentic or overly preachy, making it difficult to appeal to voters who crave straightforward, simple messages (11:02; 35:34).

Chris echoes this sentiment, advocating for a more confident and direct approach in messaging. He argues that Democrats should present their policies with certainty and avoid appearing hesitant or unsure, which can undermine voter confidence (42:20; 44:18).

6. Personal Transformation and Outreach

The hosts share their own journeys from previously holding right-wing or libertarian views to embracing more progressive stances. Luke recounts his transition from supporting Ron Paul to becoming a Democrat after engaging with anti-war activism and forming personal connections with activists who broadened his perspective (24:04; 25:11).

This segment underscores the importance of personal connections and exposure to different viewpoints in changing political alignments. Zach adds that connecting with influential figures, such as women in voters' lives, could be a crucial element in shifting perspectives (25:32).

7. Strategies for Effective Democratic Messaging

The hosts explore potential strategies for improving Democratic outreach to men:

• Expose Right-Wing Hypocrisy: Vic suggests that Democrats need to counteract right-wing messages by exposing the contradictions and misinformation spread by figures like Charlie Kirk and Joe Rogan (20:14; 36:35).

• Simplify and Confident Messaging: Zach advocates for Democrats to present clear, confident policies without overcomplicating the message with excessive context or debate, aiming to meet voters where they are (21:09; 35:54).

• Focus on Universal Concerns: Tim emphasizes that policies should align with common American goals, such as job security, retirement, and family welfare, without alienating voters with divisive rhetoric (17:11).

• Addressing Stereotypes Respectfully: Rich and Chris discuss the importance of avoiding insults while addressing stereotypes, ensuring that messaging respects the intelligence and experiences of voters (50:00; 51:23).

8. Overcoming Media Narratives and Misinformation

The hosts highlight the challenge posed by right-wing control over many media channels, which inundate voters with consistent misinformation and fear-mongering. Tim notes the difficulty in countering narratives when the right-wing media continuously reinforce negative stereotypes and falsehoods about Democrats and their policies (38:21; 50:20).

Zach suggests that Democrats need to create their own media presence that offers nuanced, truthful narratives to compete against the overwhelming right-wing media landscape (38:21).

9. Moving Forward: Building a Coalition

As the episode concludes, the hosts reiterate the urgency of restructuring Democratic messaging to be more inclusive, direct, and confident. Chris optimistically points out that political tides can shift over time, emphasizing the importance of maintaining consistent, positive messaging to eventually sway public opinion (47:50; 47:54).

Tim wraps up by encouraging listeners to engage with the podcast’s content across various platforms, highlighting the need for diverse voices and clear communication in building a broader Democratic coalition (53:19).

Notable Quotes:

• Vic (00:56): "When we do that, what are we doing? We're doing the right wing work for them. We're setting up the excuses, we're preloading it."

• Zach (02:49): "I think it about the specific background of that particular female we're talking about, ... Hillary Clinton would have been an amazing commander in chief."

• Chris (42:20): "They always bring it back to, as long as we tax the billionaires, nobody's buying it."

• Rich (32:17): "He goes, well, it's the best way to get truth. I was like, that is the best way to get truth."

• Zach (35:34): "If we're going to figure out how we can restructure messaging to be in a position to actually change people's minds, we have to meet them where they are."

Conclusion: Towards a Unified Democratic Strategy

The Find Out Podcast’s third episode provides a candid and in-depth exploration of the challenges Democrats face in reconnecting with men, particularly white men, amidst a polarized political landscape. Through personal anecdotes, strategic discussions, and critical analysis of current messaging tactics, the hosts underscore the necessity for Democrats to evolve their communication strategies, present confident and clear policies, and address stereotypes thoughtfully to build a more inclusive and effective coalition for future elections.

Transcript

[Tim]

Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the Findout podcast. This is episode three. I can't believe we've already done, or we're about to do the third one of these. We're going to be tackling a pretty, pretty controversial topic tonight, and that is how do we actually bring more men back into the Democratic fold? Obviously, we all know that the men are the worst demographic, white men in particular. And in order to win elections moving forward, we are going to have to build a coalition which includes more of them. So who better to talk about how to bring more men back in than six white dudes on this podcast? So, guys, I think we're going to probably ruffle some feathers with this one, but we're here to talk about difficult things and make change and make sure that we win elections moving forward. So I don't know who wants to be the first person to dive into this topic, but how about if I.

[Vic]

Ruffle all of your favors, your feathers.

[Tim]

You know what, Vic? Go for it.

[Vic]

All right, so I've been bugged all week long with something that we were saying and doing last week. In my view, we were talking about AOC as a possible candidate and women in general. And on one hand, I totally get the argument about, you know, look, we had two women candidates and they lost. And there's this, this aura of all women can't win and stuff. But when we were talking about all that, that question, can a woman win? Along with what would the military think? Has been bugging me all week. Because when we do that, what are we doing? We're doing the right wing work for them. We're setting up the excuses, we're preloading it. And I think we ought to take accountability for that.

[Zach]

That's fair.

[Chris]

You're not the only one who lost sleep over that one. I thought about that and I was like, I think we, I think we up a little bit on. But it's a good opportunity, I think.

[Zach]

Like, I want to. I'll clarify because I, I'm the brought up the military aspect of things.

[Chris]

I didn't mean to say your name, but it was your fucking.

[Zach]

I think it's just. You can complain to me, that's fine. It wasn't for me. It's not a comment on a female. It was a comment specifically about AOC and her background being so far from the military. I personally think I've made this argument a lot of times because I've gotten a ton of comments from people, followers of mine, thinking that, oh, Harris lost because she's a Woman, I completely disagree. I don't think she lost because she's a woman. And I think a woman can win. I know maybe some people here don't agree with that necessarily, but I don't think it's so much a female problem. But again, the military thing, I don't think it's also a female being commander, chief. I think it's the specific background of that particular female we're talking about, where I'm like, I don't think people are going to be super keen on her specifically being leader. But, like, Hillary Clinton would have been an amazing commander in chief. Like Kamala Harris would have been an amazing one, too. That wouldn't have concerned me at all. It's really just about the, you know, the resume.

[Tim]

So. So I want to. I'm going to push on that a little bit because, you know, I think that, you know, when we have had leaders in charge with a military background, how has that worked out for us? And the answer is, it hasn't worked out very well. George W. Bush had a military background. I mean, when he showed up, you know, and he lied us into what I would say is the worst foreign policy disaster in at least 50 years. He had military experience. You know, I mean, the generals that, that Trump has put in military experience, none of that went particularly well. You know, I think that when we military leaders in charge, I don't think that I have necessarily seen a better success rate than when we've had civilian presidents with no background. Like I give you an example, Bill Clinton waged an air campaign in Bosnia which was successful, and we didn't lose a single person. That doesn't mean that, like, everything he did in foreign policy was right. But the reality is, like, when we put military leaders in charge of the military, I am not seeing a success rate that, that lends to this credence that, let's say AOC couldn't be in charge because the experience.

[Vic]

There's a reason why the founders set it up so that the civilians ran the military. Or losses.

[Zach]

Yeah, I mean, for me, it's not so, like, I'm not advocating for a military, you know, somebody with a military background to be the president. It was really just like in that last three weeks of the election, when you have people who don't really pay close attention coming in, their value system is different from the ones who are paying attention now. Right. And it was. That was really the context of the argument of AOC even being a candidate, which is like, right now, anybody who is really activated in the left really likes AOC because she represents the vision of what the left sees as the right way forward. But the middle of the country will look at somebody like that and go, she's what, 40? And has never had anything even close to something high stakes in terms of what has been in her purview when it comes to things like that that are national security concerns. That is really more of the framing that, you know, contextualize.

[Vic]

But my whole point is we don't ask that same question or have that same critique over any. We don't ask those questions for a male candidate.

[Chris]

True.

[Tim]

That's my point.

[Zach]

That's so that's fair.

[Luke]

I like, this was a conversation and this is Chris, for people who don't know my voice, this was a conversation between me and Zach last week. And, and I think is he's right because we're not talking about who is actually qualified. We're talking about who is the person who votes for Trump twice in a row. Who do they think is. And their vote matters as much as mine. I am a combat veteran. I am someone who grew up blue collar, went to a great high school. I got a degree from Columbia University. I've been working in Veterans organizations on DoD and VA policy my entire life. I think that Hillary Clinton would have been an incredibly effective commander in chief. However, back in 2016, everybody cared about fucking emails. And those same people who were obsessed with emails right now are like, no, it's totally okay for Pete Hegseth, this part time major, you know, who served in the army, kind of sorta like it's okay if he's using signal to broadcast troop movements and attacks against our foreign enemies. With the Vice President of the United States and Tulsi Gabbard, two other veterans who I knew, who I served in Iraq the same time that, that J.D. vance was there. Like we were a few miles from each other. Fucking Tulsi Gabbard. Like she's been a member of Congress. She's, she served in the military. She's I think, a lieutenant colonel. Right. Like these people who ultimately decided that no, Hillary Clinton's too much of a risk went and were like, I'm going to vote for that fucking idiot I saw on tv because I just consume late night television and think that anyone I see on TV is, is brilliant. So Zach is not talking about AOC and her qualifications and what we think is right.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Luke]

Zach is talking about what these fucking morons who think that Pete Hegseth is a genius and who think that anything that Elon Musk does is. Is like manna from heaven. That's who we're talking about.

[Chris]

We're not talking about aoc and sorry, Tim. Up, up. Click from There is the same thing we were talking about last week, which is we're always fighting their battle. We're always refuting their message. This is. It's not about tax cuts and the deficit and the debt. It's not about military leadership. Because 700-year-old Captain Bone spurs, who actively despises military service, he despises all service and he pities it. He doesn't. Pity is not the right word. He looks down on it and he thinks people who serve are just suckers. I mean, I know there's the suckers and losers and there's the controversy around that. I believe it. But you don't have to believe that he said those wor to look at his actions and just very clearly understand that it's not just military service, it's service. Anyone who serves anyone is a sucker and probably getting taken advantage of. And that's why he didn't serve. Then. That's why he doesn't serve. He doesn't compromise. He doesn't do anything for anybody else.

[Tim]

So. So the, the hard question I think we have to grapple with here is like, we all know this, right? And I think all of these are good points, but how do we start to actually combat that and bring some of those people back? Because the reality is, we've talked about this in the first two episodes, like, we can't win elections moving forward unless we get some of those guys back. It is mathematically impossible. We cannot do it. So what is it going to take? What are some tactics that we can take to try to bring these people back?

[Luke]

I'm just going to throw it out there. Me calling these people fucking idiots is probably not going to work. So I'm just going to, to.

[Chris]

I'm just trying.

[Luke]

Just gonna say that, like, I, yeah, me, me ranting about how they're morons for, like, caring about emails and then suddenly, you know, troop movements before an attack is. Yeah. You know, they, they are, that's. That's what they're.

[Chris]

They're using. The, like, Trump creates chaos and it keeps people on their heels and it creates this environment where they're afraid to, to mess with him. Would you pick a fight right now? Would any of the six of us pick a fight right now with Jasmine Crockett or aoc?

[Vic]

Oh, hell no.

[Chris]

Annihilate all six of us at the Same time. And. And if you want to lean into those. Those sexist Republican stereotypes of the chaos and. And all of that, they can go there with their own heads. I'm not going to, because I trust AOC and Jasmine Crockett's judgment more than I trust Donald Trump's judgment. But if they think that picking a fight with somebody like AOC is. Is less risky and chaotic than picking a Trump, Picking a fight with somebody like Trump, I could make a pretty good argument either way.

[Zach]

Yeah, that's true.

[Vic]

Think he's the young one?

[Rich]

Well, first I'd like to.

[Chris]

He's more than a young person.

[Tim]

We should have introduced him as RFK.

[Rich]

Jr. Yeah, I've been sick the last couple days.

[Chris]

The third, right? RFK, the third.

[Rich]

Yeah. But first, I'd like to push on what Chris said, which was that calling them idiots doesn't work. And I disagree because, like, right now, there's a stereotype that, like, if you're on the left and you're a guy, you're a loser. Like, you're not a man. If you make the stereotype that if you're on the right, you're a idiot and you don't understand anything that's going on, there's this, like, then you have to pick between which stereotypes you want to choose. And I'd sooner be the soy boy than the idiot who doesn't understand anything. God, it's hard to take myself seriously like this.

[Chris]

Oh, it's good.

[Zach]

I think the hard part is that they don't see themselves as idiots because they live in a different realm of reality. Right. Like, the right builds a different reality where it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, as long as you follow what they say is right, then you're right, even if you could be factually disproven. So, like, I kind of don't. I. Look, I think going back to episode one, we talked about this a lot, which was, there is a segment of this country we're never going to get, and I think we're talking about that segment right now. I think exactly. Yeah.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Zach]

That's the challenge. It's like we're not going to be able to get these guys who are entrenched. The group I'm talking about, even in relation to the AOC conversation, is the group in the middle that just kind of makes a gut call. And I think that the gut call comes quite a bit from what they feel coming from the party. And the thing that really pisses me off is that the Authenticity of the right, as we know is dog shit, but to them it's real. They think that they're an authentic party because they're just saying what the fuck is on their mind. And I think that is the biggest hindrance the left faces right now, because the left has tried to be very inclusive and thoughtful about how they talk and trying to make everybody feel like they're included. But in that endeavor, I think they've gone too far. And now the left is in a position where people don't feel like they can say what they think, and that is making them come off as inauthentic, even though they're not. So to me, changing the way we talk and what we're willing to hear, I think that's a huge thing.

[Tim]

So we're kind of talking about. I want to hear what everybody has to say about this. We're kind of saying two things at once because we've got Luke saying call them fucking idiots, and we've got Zach saying essentially like the opposite. So, so where, where do we think that. Where's the middle ground here? Because I agree with you both. It depends on the audience. But like that middle group, right? Calling the middle group fucking idiots is probably not the right, right answer, right?

[Rich]

I don't.

[Tim]

But go ahead.

[Rich]

I try not to call the middle group the fucking idiots. They're the chronically misinformed people who don't understand what's going on. They are not fucking idiots. They're people that have this short term memory of a goldfish who don't understand. Like, these things take time. So, like, saying, oh, I'm better off than I, or I'm worse now than I was four years ago. Isn't an effective way to vote? Like, you have to speak to them differently than you speak to the entrenched idiots.

[Zach]

Yep.

[Luke]

So Luke is getting at, like, the guy that I was talking to you guys about before we, we hit record today, who are reaching out and, and saying, and you know, the feedback that I'm getting, I respect a lot and guys like, listen, you know, people call me an extremist because I just want people to leave me the fuck alone. I just want to, you know, protect my family. I want to make sure that my kids aren't getting indoctrinated at school. And because of that, you know, the left calls me an extremist and I. This is a guy who listened to our first two episodes and that's, that's the, the feedback he's getting. He's saying he's like, Listen, you, you guys are like, I'm listening. I'm trying, but you're not giving me.

[Zach]

Sorry.

[Chris]

I, I hope he's, I hope he's listening because I feel that same way. And all six of us feel that same way sometimes. And it's a reflection, and I hate to say the P word, but it's a reflection of the privilege of being born in a world where your default position is not under attack. We can. It's the libertarian dream. It's the libertarian default state, which is I wake up every day and everything is fine. Why are you guys telling me I'm shit for not changing my behaviors to try to accommodate somebody else who I don't even know. And I don't necessarily have to care about what they do and what they, what they do in their own home and who they are. That is no concern to me. But that doesn't hold up at a social level, at a community level, at an, a national level. And so I would just ask that individual to, to, to think. Does everyone else have the, the right to have the same perspective as you and, and still have a thriving country? Or is maybe there a little bit of earned pressure or just natural pressure that comes along with the fact that you are not under attack right now?

[Tim]

Well, and I think I. One of the challenges I think that we're facing in this country, because I agree 100% with everything you said, but like, for those people, let's just, let's go with, with white men, for example, right? Like, the reality in this country is that white men have a leg up on everybody else. But that doesn't mean that life is easy. And I think that the part of the problem has been, at least from the perception perspective, is that the, the position is white, you, white person, you've had it easy, get out of the way and let like give somebody else a chance. And the reality is for that person who maybe like, you know, grew up poor like you, telling them that they have privilege is just, it's gonna fall in deaf ears because they've had a hard life. And I think we have done a bad job there of saying we're not saying your life is easy, we're saying that somebody else, a person of color, a woman, has it harder, but you both have it hard. And I think that is where we have failed. And I think that is what has driven people into this right wing fever swamp where basically you can say what you want and there are no consequences, but it's a community and they're welcomed. We don't do that. And some of that is because some of those people say really like cruel things to other people. And so then we react to that. But in a lot of cases, a lot of these people just want to have a job. They want to get married, they want to have two and a half kids, and they want to be able to retire before they're 95 years old. And I feel like the Democratic Party's positions and policies line up perfectly with that. But we are swinging and missing at about 100 million Americans who just think all we want to do is turn everyone trans and basically like, turn the country into like a China, Russia, North Korea death spiral of.

[Chris]

Do we still do those things, though?

[Vic]

Can we just talk about.

[Luke]

What I want to know is, I want to. I want to know what led young Vic into the military. I want to know you like how you felt when you were that age. Because I can tell you what I felt when I was 18 to 21 and I was one of. One of those. I was. I was right wing. I was libertarian. Vic, what were you like at that age? What led you to the military? How do you feel around that age?

[Vic]

I've always been left wing. My dad was always. I even did it, talked about it. One of my videos when I was like 12 years old, I asked my dad was difference between a Republican and Democrat. And he said, a Republican fights for the company and a Democrat fights for the working guy. And I became a Democrat. I can't argue that they're doing a good job of it, but that was back then. And as far as why I went into the military, my family, it hasn't been a. Your grandfather was in the military, so you will be too. It wasn't like that. But military service in my family is just something that we do. So when I turned 18, I was like, I want to serve in the military. And that's how I ended up there.

[Chris]

Another example of a.

[Vic]

Sorry, go ahead, Rich, go ahead.

[Chris]

I was just going to say another example of a simple, salient message. You know, you fight. Are you going to fight for the people in your community or are you going to fight for the billionaires, the. The oligarch or the. The other, you know, and they've done a good job of flipping that script on us.

[Zach]

Oh, 100. Like, if, if you send that message out today, people are going to go, Democrats don't fight for at all. And that's. I mean, it's incorrect if you just look at policy, but in terms of how they position themselves, it's terrible. And it actually, it even can get spiraled out to other things. Like the most. You know, I live in a swing state, so I, during the election, I just saw a thousand ads, and the ad that played the most was the trans stuff where they're going, they're not for you. They're for they. Them. And it's just the way that they take it away from, like, Democrats don't care about the regular person. They care about this niche group or that niche group. And it's like, it's the most inaccurate thing humanly possible, yet somehow it's resonating with so many people because it's simple and they just buy it.

[Tim]

But how do we, how do we reverse that? Right? Like, I mean, this is, this is the problem. We all, like, know the problem, right? We know that our policies, like, Even look at 2024, like, Kamala lost by a fair amount. And our policies across the nation passed in states, right? Even in Missouri, there were, like, laws, very progressive laws. Lucas Koontz lost by like, 25 points in that Senate race.

[Zach]

Ye.

[Tim]

How do we reach out to these guys? And I really, I'm going to lean on Chris and Vic here partially just because you both of your military background, which tends to be dominated by the right. How, how. And, but like, I'm also sure you have tons of friends on the right. Like, well, Vic, you've been a left for a long time, so maybe. But Chris, you know, what is it? How do we even start?

[Vic]

Well, we start. I mean, one thing that we haven't talked about in this conversation yet, we talked about the idea, in my opinion, that the left is always telling people how to think and what, what words to use and things like that. To me, that's an idea. And we talked about how young white men are being told about how being left is weak and all that stuff. But what we haven't talked about, and it goes to the. How do we. How do we get them back? We have to start putting water on the fire that they're using to light these guys up. We got to start exposing the Charlie Kirks and the Joe Rogans and all those idiots who don't believe anything they say. They're only, they're only doing it to make money. We got to start exposing those guys. I, I can't tell you how painful it was to listen to all those episodes of that idiot just to get ready for this tonight.

[Rich]

I thought he did it.

[Chris]

I think, you know, to, to, to pull around to messaging and, and how they've exploited generations. They started with, they've started with young men now. They, they understood this and they started with a message that's as simple as Vic, the one you just called out, which is being a boy is not bad. Being a man is not bad. Masculinity is not toxic. And they flicked that directly on us when we called out their toxic behaviors. And they said all masculinity is all of our behaviors. We are masculinity. And so if you're attacking any of those things, you're attacking all of us and you're attacking the entire community of men. And they hate men. And it was that simple. And they don't have the burden of truth in right wing messaging. And that is the most suffocating reality to deal with when you're the one saying, well, there are shades of gray in this conversation. And they go, well that's actually interesting because there are are not shades of gray. You either hate men or you are a man and you believe that men should run the world. And that is when you're 12 and 13 and 14. A much simpler, much more attractive message than well, maybe you have all of these layers of responsibility to people you've never met.

[Tim]

Well, I was actually going to go to Chris because like I, I wanted to ask him because like he has self proclaimed said that he was right wing. I, I think you said all right, but Obviously in the mid 2000s I.

[Luke]

Didn'T say all right. No, no, or far right.

[Tim]

Far right. You said far. Sorry, but very different description 15 years ago.

[Zach]

True.

[Tim]

So you were all the way over there at one point and you are now with us on this journey. So what was the flip? What did it take?

[Luke]

Yeah, so, so people nowadays like who know me, follow me on Tik tok. It's likely because of the white dudes for Harris thing where I did like one super viral TikTok video. The closest thing that I have ever done to getting involved in a presidential campaign is in 2008 when I was, you know, six months, less than a year out of the military was running around my, my hometown spray painting Ron Paul revolution on, on the train station.

[Tim]

Wow.

[Luke]

And that is the type of Republican that I was. And I gravitated towards Ron Paul for the singular reason that he was ant. And the thing that broke me of that right wing fever of this belief in like Ron Paul preached all sorts of stuff. He gave me a reading list which radicalized me further. I was like, yeah, let's, let's go back on the gold standard. Not Knowing about economics.

[Vic]

Right.

[Tim]

That's, that's who Ron Paul's followers had that newsletter, right? That was that thing back. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Luke]

So the thing that broke me out of it was I got involved in the anti war movement, the peace movement and I got involved with an anti war activist. I was a young woman who was a refugee from Iraq and her family, previous generation had been refugees from Palestine and she and I were polar opposites. I was watching Glenn Beck on Fox News and feminism was a bad word to me. I'm not exaggerating. Right. And I met this self described hardcore feminist and because we had the mutual experience of like real, real deep military related or Iraq related trauma, we bonded over that. And that those polar opposite political beliefs kind of, I think blended together a bit. And that, that's what broke me. Otherwise I'd, I literally would probably have been an oath keeper. Like the, the Ron Paul campaign is where the Oath keepers came from. I was right there.

[Zach]

I mean it's exposure to something you weren't being exposed to. That's really what it is. Like so much of this is just like these people need to hear something else and they need to hear the conversation if you heard. And it's not, it's not. The hard part is like even hearing us. If you could agree with a lot of these things, the reason it worked for you was because you had a personal connection with this person. It's like that, that is a, is a huge element of this. And I think, you know, given the fact that Democrats do much better with women, the women in the lives of these men, I think is a huge element that is, you know, unfortunately not tapped into. But it's not so much we can do about that particular, that particular element of it, unfortunately.

[Tim]

But I, but I think like what we're doing here and not, not to pat ourselves on the back, but I'm going to pat ourselves on the back is that there isn't. There are not places on the left that they can come and get this type of information for people who look and sound like them.

[Zach]

Yes.

[Tim]

And I'll be honest, like I think this is we in a very precarious situation because the right is also. And Taylor the Rens, the online reporter has covered this a lot that they're now starting, these right wing people are now starting to talk about gossip. Like the whole situation with oh God, what's Her Face, Ryan Reynolds wife, Blake Lively and the whole thing with that movie like the Megan Kelly's of the World and all of these, like libs of TikTok, I think maybe even, like, are talking about this be. As a way to pull more people in, to indoctrinate them. Like, this is only getting worse. And that's why, like, I mean, look, like no one was doing it and we stepped up and did this, but, like, the reality is, like, we need like, 50 of these across different demographics. It's really concerning because they are, like, they're really smart about it and, like, that's why, like, shows like this matter and we need to get, like, more people out there. But it is, it's really concerning because it's, it's continuing. Yeah, I mean, I, I just. I don't know. It's just like a real problem.

[Chris]

Yeah, I want to. I want to. I want to play off what was, What Chris was saying. Chris, I don't know if you've thought of it this way, and I'm sorry for throwing this out on the live mic, but you were. I took the asvab. Right. I'm wildly out of my, out of my depth here, but I took it and I too, scored fairly well. And the recruiter at the time told me, oh, don't worry, you won't be up on the shore with the bullet sponges. He. He tried to appeal to me in a way that did not resonate, and I was so disgusted by that pitch that he thought he, that he thought that. That I would be so callous to the lives of others that, well, don't worry, you're safe. And, and, and that. That was going to sell me on it. I, at that, at that point, it took me 10 years to come back around on the idea of the military not being a terrible force in the United Think this, this, like taking young men, I mean, this may have been intentional or not, but taking young men and selling them a false bill and getting them on board with something they weren't fully on. I mean, you are the poster child for what we're trying to do with this country. And Tim, with your permission, if I can hard pivot to a topic that's very dear to me very recently, it just, it has me thinking about adolescence, which is a show I just watched, I just finished, and I won't spoil anything if anybody hasn't finished it yet, but for dads, for, for men who were raised in a similar environment where masculinity is maybe narrowly and, and, and maliciously defined, it was a, it was a bucket of ice water over our heads. And, and it, and it caused a lot of, I think Parents and a lot of maybe teenage boys and girls if they've watched it to, to do a lot of sou. And, and, and part of that comes back to in the show a heavy dose of alt right Internet led content creator, you know, this hyper masculine alpha bro movement telling little boys that there's only a very, very narrow way to be a, a boy or to be a man. And that only if you become that thing will women be attracted to you do. And they, they call out something in the, in the show called the 8020 rule, which is that 80% of women are attracted to 20 of men. And they use that to then box you in and say if you want to be part of that 20 of men, you have to do this thing and you have to do this thing and you have to say this thing and you have to act this way. And this is what our opposition is up, this is what our opposition is doing right now, which is saying you have to be jacked, you have to be healthy, you have to be financially well off and if, if not a millionaire.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And you have to be all of these things, otherwise you are somebody who will go extinct, you will not have a girlfriend, you will not hook up with anybody, you'll not get attention and then they all dog pile on top of that person and, and create a victim. And when you're a kid, that's a real thing. When you're an adult, you grow out of that a little bit and you can just be like, you know what you guys like I got a wife and she's awesome. Which is where I'm at in my life. But when you're, when you're impress, which is exactly when the right wing goes after you, whether it's military recruitment, as I found out and Chris found out, or whether it's just a kid in America or a kid in the world these days, that's when they go after you and we have to do something about that.

[Tim]

So Luke, as the youngest person here who is the closest to teenage years, even though you're not there, you're hearing all of this conversation from people who have been out of the dating scene for quite a while and probably decades, decades for some of us. And what, what, like how does this resonate with you? Does this, does this sound like your friends and you like walk us through, like what a, what a 21 year old is thinking about masculinity and all of these things in 2025 and what he's hearing? Yeah, exactly.

[Rich]

There's a guy at my gym Who? We're. We go about the same time every day, and just about every day we end up in the sauna at the same time. But this guy every day is listening to either Joe Rogan, Ben Shapiro, or Charlie Kirk. And since your phone will explode if you take it into the sauna, he's got that set outside full blast so you can hear it through the door. Oh, God, it's insufferable. But. But, you know, for the first, like, two weeks, I was like, fine, whatever. I'll just. I'll wear my headphones in and I won't listen to it. And then eventually it got to the point where I was like, I don't want to listen to it at all. And so he was listening to it. I came in and I said the. Are you listening to that for, like. Not everybody wants to listen to that. Because I had been approached by other guys who were like, yeah, can't stand that.

[Vic]

Is he your age, Luke?

[Rich]

Yeah, he's my age.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Rich]

And he. He goes, well, it's the best way to get truth. And I said, really? I was like, that is the best way to get truth. He goes, yeah, they tell how it is. And I said, well, funny you should say that. I said, it's my great shame to admit that when I was, like, 14 and 100 pounds later, the only thing I had going for me was that I was pretty smart and I was a big fucking Ben Shapiro and Steven Crowder fan. Because what I would watch is those videos where he goes on a, you know, a fucking college campus, and he's got. He sounds really smart. He's got all these sources and shit, and people come up and he fucking. Oh, he owned that lib. And I thought that was just a cat's ass.

[Chris]

And then. Is that a good thing?

[Rich]

I think it's supposed to be a good thing. My dad says it all the time.

[Chris]

I'll tell my cat.

[Rich]

But, like, I probably watched that for, like, a year, and I thought it was just awesome. And then suddenly I watched one video where he. Where I think it was Steven Crowder went after this trans lady, like, real hard and was calling her all kinds of just terrible. I was like, see, that's not what I'm in this for. Like, I like the intellectual side of it, even though it was complete pseudo. Pseudo intellectualism. But I was not in it for the bigotry. But I don't think everybody gets that far.

[Tim]

So the cruelty actually got you out of it?

[Rich]

Yes, but I don't think most people get that far.

[Chris]

The cruelty is a feature.

[Tim]

Yeah, it's the Adam Serwer piece that was like, the cruelty is the point is one of the best, I think, to this day pieces on Trumpism, like the react. I keep saying reality in every episode. I gotta stop saying that word. But they, but like that's, that's a feature, it's not a bug.

[Luke]

So I think the. So yes, it, I, I believe it. It is a feature. And, and I study the far right and, and that's my opinion based on, you know, my studies. But the perception for the listener is that the listener is constantly being attacked. It is that the listener is, is on defense and that it is the Ben Shapiro's and the Charlie Kirks, the Steven Crowders who are going out there into hostile territory and who are staking, you know, planting a flag in the ground and saying, you know, I can be here too. So I don't think that the average listener, and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt as best I can just for the sake of the show. I don't think that the average listener recognized, recognizes that they're being infantilized by these people. Right. That is what it is, is Charlie Kirk thinks that all of his listeners are little defenseless babies and he is feeding them the information that they need to, to, to reinforce that. Right. It is not. They don't believe that they're attacking people. They believe that they're standing up for themselves.

[Zach]

Right.

[Chris]

I wish he had our listeners who are the smartest, kindest, true, best people. I mean, they're the best people on earth.

[Tim]

Thank you for listening.

[Chris]

If they could have listeners like our listeners, if people are listening right now are. I mean, they're next level and we live in utopia.

[Tim]

Right?

[Vic]

You know what? I'm so glad that I got to hear all that from Luke because I grew up in a day where there was no Internet and AM radio was still a little bit balanced. So I often wonder, as I'm listening to Charlie Kirk only for the purposes of tonight, as I'm listening to that crap, I'm sitting here thinking, how on the fudge do people not see through this? How, how do they listen to this and think there's any credibility at all? It's. So I'm glad to hear that perspective from Luke.

[Zach]

I think they're, they're not looking to challenge its validity. That's, that's the thing is like the right, the left is always on defense right now, trying to like, poke holes in what the right is saying. And the right is just going forward. Like, no, this is it. This is right. It's literally presentation. Their presentation style is incredible. Like, you know, as much as I hate the right in all of their policy, I admire their ability to market and their ability to present because they could give a fuck about if they're right or wrong. They're right. That's it. They just. They are gonna stick it in your face and go, this is the answer. And there isn't a world where it's not. The left is much more context. Like Rich said earlier, the left is open to gray in conversations. It's not just black and white. And. And that's challenging for a lot of people who are just looking for clarity. And when there's no clarity in a situation and then somebody shows up and goes, no, here it is right in front of your face, it's an easy win. And the left is missing that opportunity because we are more thoughtful about how we approach things, and that's a good thing. But at the same time, if we want to figure out how we can restructure messaging to be in a position to actually change people's minds, we have to meet them where they are. And where they are is that they want a simple conversation. They want a simple. They don't want to feel like they're being preached at. They want to feel like they're being told information. That's true. And right now, the left just comes off like we're just waffling around and trying to give all this context. It's just a waste of time. And like, and this is me saying this, most of my content is like, contextualizing, you know, stuff with, with data. But which is interesting because, like, I, you know, my channel does well because people do want to know the information, like, it's an important thing. But the presentation style of most of the party is terrible. And they just need to understand, like, just go right at them. Attack, be on offense. It's enough with the defense. It's pathetic.

[Tim]

Well, you know, I think that they have built an ecosystem in which you can literally go through your life and never actually listen to a Democrat. So you are constantly hearing right wing misinformation on Fox News, in the, in the, you know, in the gym, you know, on your way home. AM radio, tv. Now we're talking about, like, celebrity gossip, stuff like, they have built a world. I mean, I have friends that, like, they are perplexed as to why I'm a Democrat. They're like, those people hate freedom. They hate everything about America. And I'm sitting here being like. I mean, I was on. In D.C. on 9 11. I was on 701 Pennsylvania Avenue between the White House and the Capitol. And like, like, I was in the. I mean, I wasn't like in the middle of it, but like, I was 22 and I was scared out of my mind. And like, the next day when all the American flags went up, I was like, yeah, job. And you know, like, I'm like, I know I'm somebody who loves this country. There's no, like, we all do. And it's. It. We just, we do have horribly miserable job of like, explaining that. And I think because we're always trying to talk about policy. I mean, last. I just laugh. Was last week we talked a little bit about Medicare for all. And like, you know, Zach, Vic and I were sort of like, well, you know, you can't do it in two years or three years. Imagine a Republican saying that. They're just like, we want this. Shut the up. And like, the reality is like, we have to do more of that. Like, it just like stops. Stop selling pieces and sell a brand. Really.

[Chris]

It's. It's two to three times the work.

[Zach]

Right?

[Chris]

You have to do the marketing and the messaging and the PR and the comms, and you have to do the 90% of the work that is the policies that are logically and mathematically defensible. They skip that entire part. They just say, everything will be fine. Yes, you deserve this because you're great. If we, if we just, just were either dumb or reckless or gutsy enough to just go out and say, you as Americans deserve $50 an hour and free health care and I will make it happen, period. People would go, I don't know how that's possible. But they are so confident in their pitch that they must know something. I don't know. And all I have to do is say, trust me, we know all of the smartest people. We will deliver on that. Don't even worry about it. Just go to the park with your kids and we will take of the mess. And, and people. That is all they want government to do, which is solve problems and go away.

[Zach]

Right. And that's the thing is like, when you get. I completely agree with that. And Trump did it more so in this election than ever, where he just didn't even try to substantiate what he's claiming. He just said, this is what I'm going to do. It doesn't matter how it worked the first time. So. Right. And it worked even better. This time.

[Luke]

But like concepts of a plan, right?

[Zach]

Exactly. It doesn't matter. But the whole premise of this is like Democrats are in a position now where if you are able to do what rich is, then you're able to just go one to one of what is actually being promised. And if Democrats are coming out and promising, we're gonna give you free healthcare, we're gonna give you free childcare, and you're gonna get the minimum wage to a living wage, it's a home fucking run. And you just have to do it in a way where it makes like you're confident in the pitch. But other. But Democrats never have confidence in this stuff. They come out flat as shit and they go, oh, we're gonna do it by cutting this tax. And like, I'll just say this last thing. The worst thing that Democrats do is attack billionaires. It's the stupidest thing they do all the time. They always bring it back to, as long as we tax the billionaires, nobody's buying it. It's a loser argument. People have just fallen, it falls on deaf ears. You have to just ignore how and just say, we're gonna do it. Don't demonize a whole class of successful people because that turns off a lot of men. Men look at billionaires differently than people in this call. Look at billionaires on the whole. They look at them and go, those are successful people. Why are you trying to attack them? We're attacking success in America. It's a huge mistake. Say, don't make a person a victim. Just tell me the plan.

[Vic]

Naturally, I disagree with Zach on all, all of that last part.

[Chris]

Well, remember, if you're not, if you don't like the message, you might not be the audience. Right.

[Zach]

No, I mean, and Vic, look, I, I, I'm not saying that we shouldn't go after billionaires. I'm saying stop talking about it. It's like, I think this polarization of like, there's the working class people and the billionaires. It's a, we've tried that message for what, 10 years? Hasn't worked. It's just because we talked, then we.

[Vic]

Don'T do it because the billionaires and the consultants are.

[Tim]

Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure we've ever really done that, to be perfectly honest. Like, I mean, we, we, we, we talk about it. Right, but like, you know, we have plenty of billionaires on our side. Not as many as Republicans, and we really don't go into that. Yeah, and the fact that like the Trump administration has more billionaires in in positions of power than ever. How are these people supposed to be helping the American public? They have no idea. Most of these people got in these positions because their daddy gave them something, which is what Donald Trump got. He got $400 million when, like, it, like, I have no problem with success in this country. And like, Mark Cuban's a perfect example. And he is actually the one that is the most articulate about this. He's like, tax me. Like, I have more money than I could ever spend. I'll send you my check. And like, that's the patriotic thing to do. Not these people who are, like, ditching, like, they want their tax cuts. And so they're willing to just, like, melt down everything else so that they get a little bit more so they can, like, maybe Elon could be the first a trillionaire. Like, like, it's just madness. And so I, I get what you're saying. And like, we should not, like, criticize success, but there's a fine line here with that. And also just serving one group of people because they fund everything.

[Zach]

Oh, for sure. I'm not saying we serve them. I'm just saying, like, the Democratic messaging structure in this is not working. We need a new one. That's my, that's my point.

[Chris]

I, I think, I think, I mean, I 100 agree that, that you're onto something, Zach. And I think it's because when you look at who does the right demonize. They demonize immigrants. They demonize, you know, trans people. They demonize people you never want to be.

[Zach]

Yep.

[Chris]

And if we demonize millionaires and billionaires. I had a friend 25 years ago, and it was, this is the most beautiful statement ever. He said, every Republican is a temporarily inconvenienced millionaire. And now I think it would be a temporarily inconvenienced billionaire. But the point is, we are attacking their aspirational state when we go after the wealthy. And what Republicans would do is say, why do Democrats hate the middle class? Why do they hate working people? When they attack a $50 an hour minimum wage and they attack universal health care for everybody instead of getting to your point, Zach. Caught up. And, well, we're going to offset this marginal tax rate to pay for it. Nobody gives a. Nobody even. I don't even know what that means. And I just said it. And, and let alone the average American voter. So if you have to keep it very sharp and very pointed, and that is not a thing that Democrats are good at when it comes to messaging, because we just want to. We were excited by the details. We like the details. But the average voter just goes, tell me what you're doing for me and tell me that it's not going to be a problem for me.

[Zach]

Exactly.

[Vic]

Maybe the message should be, hey dummy, you're never going to be a billionaire.

[Chris]

Under their policies, but you could still win the lottery. And then at that point you don't want the death tax, the estate tax. They will always, don't even get me started on that one. They will always come come back around to defending wealth.

[Zach]

Yeah, I mean this, it's really, it's like going back to earlier in the conversation when we look at like why men drawn to this. It's because they're drawn to success. A lot of these younger men are drawn to what. That's why they like Elon Musk, because he's a self made. He's not really self made, but they see him as this self made guy. They think that Democrats don't like success then. And then they draw the conclusion down to like, Democrats enjoy people who need, like they only give a shit about people need to be pulled up. It's like that's, we care about everybody, including the people who need to be pulled up and the people who are, you know, doing fine. Like, everybody matters. It's not just about, about that.

[Chris]

I also want to inherit $400 million.

[Zach]

Sure.

[Chris]

100% right now, if, if Donald Trump's dad said, here's $400 million, I'd go, sweet. I'm gonna, I'm gonna fix things. I'm not gonna break things. But I would, I would take all of the money.

[Zach]

Shameless.

[Vic]

My wife, I was gonna marry her for money and she said, okay, but I'm broke. And I said, oh, I guess I'll marry you anyway.

[Chris]

You'd already given the ring, so you're.

[Tim]

Just like, well, right?

[Chris]

This is it.

[Zach]

Yeah, it's a tough one, man. I mean it's one of those things where like, like I, I just don't like my big. When we get through these conversations, my big question is how do we get out of the hole we're in with this stuff? Like, we've identified all the problems, but what's the solution? Right? Like, that's the thing that's so annoying is like they're killing us right now, right? That's what I think what we need to get at is like, how do we attack? Right? Because our attacks so far haven't worked. So like, what's the right attack to go after their, you know, really entrenched With a lot of these groups, we need to un entrench them. How do we do do that?

[Chris]

Let's remember the Pendulum will do a lot of work for us. Let's never forget that. It's hot right now. It feels insurmountable. But the mountain will drop itself by about 90%. And in four years, I don't want it to be this way. I don't want people to suffer. But in four years, I don't think it's going to be great. All we need to be is the person, the candidate, the party with a message saying, you always deserved better and we can let bygones be bygones. We have to move on because this is our values. Hopefully we will remind you of this and we will all remember this so we don't have to go through this over and over and over. Even though we always say it can't.

[Vic]

Be, hopefully we have to make sure it is right.

[Zach]

That's the thing.

[Tim]

Well, that's. Yeah.

[Luke]

You know, I think about the, the guy that I brought up before, he, he's a Long Islander, right? Lives. I think he lives in Nassau County. It's where I was born and raised, which has a Republican, like maga, County Executive. Long island is, has become kind of like Trump country outside of New York City. So the perception and the reality there are two different things. Like the crime rate in Nassau county, it's one of the most wealthy places in the country. It's also one of the safest places in the country. But the perception is that like there are gangs running rampant. Right? Like the, the, like Ms. 13 is going to get daughter thing is, is. It's like real there.

[Chris]

I thought that was a rating on Netflix, by the way. I was like, Ms. 13, that's appropriate for my kid, right? Is that.

[Luke]

So? Like, you know, I, and I'm, you know, I want to be thoughtful and, and respectful. Like, what does this person want to hear from the Democrats? Like, if we believe the data says that crime is just simply not bad and that the police there are paid more than any other police and that they per capita higher rate of policing than just about anywhere in the country, like it is safe, but you don't believe it, what do we say? How do we, how do we fix that?

[Zach]

Yeah, that's a very difficult thing to do because it's like again, to complement their ability to message, they, they find like these little instances of like we arrested an MS.13 guy in this county. That's really safe. The county is now super dangerous. Like, no, it's not, it's one, it's like, you know, all the different times that one little thing happens, they amplify to sound like it's happening all the time. Time. Because they're very good at fear mongering and it's like Democrats, I don't think Democrats should soup to that level because it's just not them. But it's just a heart. Like what? You know, it's so hard to push back against that because they only tell you the shitty story when 99% of it is good and the 1%'s bad. It seems like 100%.

[Vic]

We need the Democrats and especially the, the left leaning media to stop saying things like well what he said might not have been accurate. It and say he's a liar. He lied to you. Nobody says Trump lied. Nobody says Hegseth lied. They say, well what he said wasn't actually true.

[Tim]

Yeah, misstatements, falsehoods. Well all the, all the, all the. When those, those guys were up on the Hill the other day talking about signal, they all lied. They knew that was classified. I mean like any idiot on like would know when you looked at that stuff that that was classified information. And it's like I don't recall and you know, they lied, lied and like it is like I think they're getting a lot of for it. But the reality, the media does not say they lie. No, there's not going to be any.

[Rich]

Consequence for this anyway.

[Zach]

Yeah, no, no, not at all.

[Chris]

Well they'll just pardon any, they pardon anybody who does anything. So it doesn't, it doesn't make a difference.

[Luke]

I, I just did a video about this the other day. Like I think that what I want to hear from Democrats and maybe this is like the aggressive testosterone man side of me, right? I want to hear, not lock them up. I want to hear that's a fucking felony. Like here's the law. Here is what happened. That is a felony. And when we get into power we will absolutely make sure that we prosecute felonies, not, not lock him up, not let, I don't want them to simplify it that the shit the Democrats were doing at Harris campaigns, not all the time, but at some of those arenas they were chanting lock him up. That, that dumbing down of prosecution of the law really bothers me as an investigator, as someone who like is involved in making sure that hate crimes get prosecuted. I really hate when people treat justice like that. But I want you know, for Democrats running in 2026, in 2028 to be talking about impeachment, indictments, prosecution, preservation of evidence. Because we know that Pam Bondi is not going to, you know, hold anyone responsible. We know that that Cash Patel, leader leading the FBI is FBI director. We know he's going to hold the FBI back. But I want to make sure that, that prosecutors, that investigators, anyone with the legal, the statutory authority to be engaging in investigations right now, that they doing it and that they're preserving evidence and that these people are held accountable and they, they get a fair trial. That's what I think that's the perfect.

[Vic]

Message what Chris is saying.

[Chris]

Yep.

[Tim]

And I think we are going to wrap it up there because we have been over an hour for the first two episodes and we are going to cut it just short. So I want to thank everybody for listening tonight. We want to hear from you. Please go to our substack atfindout podcast substack.com Tell us what you think about this. We've got lots of things to talk about coming up so make sure that you're following us on substack and all of our social channels. I want to thank my, my five buds here for doing this tonight on we're doing this on a Friday night to tells you what kind of lives we leave sitting on. Sitting online at 8:00 on a. I.

[Chris]

Had two beers so I don't know about you.

[Vic]

That's why it's okay that we're doing this.

[Tim]

I know everybody, everybody had a little bit of a drink. I think.

[Luke]

Guys, we're not making a sacrifice. It's all Luke. Luke is the only one sacrificing to hang out with us. That's true.

[Tim]

Thank you.

[Luke]

And to your half a million followers who are listening to the show.

[Rich]

It's a weird thing to say. I know Six months ago I had zero.

[Chris]

Damn, you'll lose half of them with that voice. You guys probably.

[Rich]

I almost made a video about it.

[Tim]

You should do a video about it. But anyways, we gotta wrap because we gotta cut this off before an hour hour. Anyways, thank you everybody. We will be back next week.